Speaker 1: You want to be an American.
Speaker 2: He's got flown out seven hundred WLW buried in the
Speaker 2: news and quite a bit of news US the allegedly
Speaker 2: slow cycle.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: More domestic terrorism aplot diserupted. FBI orre I said four
Speaker 2: people as part of a radical pro Palestini extremist group
Speaker 2: arrested for planning an attack on New Year's Even Los Angeles.
Speaker 2: They caught them with IEDs that they're making complex pipe
Speaker 2: bombs with The FBI said they're going to target five
Speaker 2: separate locations on Christmas Eve across the Los Angeles including
Speaker 2: two big US companies as well as ice agents, vehicles
Speaker 2: and the like. And so if you look at domestic terrorism,
Speaker 2: you know, in our lifetime, if you're a little bit
Speaker 2: older anyway, you call terrorism from abroad right nine to eleven,
Speaker 2: et cetera. And we are clearly in the age of
Speaker 2: domestic terrorism. Over the last ten years, investigations have grown
Speaker 2: over three hundred and fifty percent, and in that time period,
Speaker 2: investing open investigations, meaning there's probable cause more than quadrupled.
Speaker 2: Mark Nzilaco's here. He is a director of the International
Speaker 2: Studies Program at the University of Dayton, also founder the
Speaker 2: Human Rights Studies Program. There, Mark, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 2: How are you.
Speaker 1: I'm fine.
Speaker 2: I'm doing fine. Yeah. For those who you know, we're
Speaker 2: worried about foreign terrorism, it's domestic terrorism. It's been the
Speaker 2: story of the narrative for a lot longer than that.
Speaker 2: What do we know about this group, the Turtle Island
Speaker 2: Liberation Front, the t i LF. It sounds almost like
Speaker 2: a I don't know a Clancy novel, right, I mean
Speaker 2: that kind of name alone strikes me as Turtle Island
Speaker 2: Liberation Front, very left wing, very terroristic group.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had that one wasn't on my radar because
Speaker 1: it's it's small, and you're correct, the name, the Turtle
Speaker 1: Islands Freedom Front. It doesn't inspire, you know, it sounds
Speaker 1: like a I don't know a vacation spot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Abertle Island Liberation.
Speaker 1: Front and scenes. From what I saw about the explosives
Speaker 1: there was they had gone to the desert that brought
Speaker 1: precursor chemicals to make either the multile cocktails or ID.
Speaker 1: They did not seem to be sophisticated, very sophisticated explosive devices.
Speaker 1: I don't want to downplay them at all, but They
Speaker 1: don't seem like the truck bombs of you know, uh, uh,
Speaker 1: you know the truck bombs of Oklahoma City.
Speaker 2: They were just basic black powder, weren't.
Speaker 1: They Yeah, something like that. Uh. And you know, their
Speaker 1: their operational securities not very good. The f I can
Speaker 1: track them complain things, and I don't, but I don't
Speaker 1: want to demand don't diminish the threat. We have thought
Speaker 1: for a decade or so that the rise of sort
Speaker 1: of neo Nazi type right wing extremists, anti government, anti immigrant,
Speaker 1: anti Semitic groups. But no, the left wing groups is
Speaker 1: still out there, particularly after Hamas launches homicidal attack. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's genocidal attack from Gaza. There's been increases of anti
Speaker 1: semic violent threats. We had firebamb on the mayor, the governor, Yeah, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: So yeah, the threat less wing, the streament has always
Speaker 1: been out there. It's incredible you said it this last
Speaker 1: time I was on your program. Step when you look
Speaker 1: at the number of people, the percentage in the thirties
Speaker 1: who believe that political violence is justifiable and use the
Speaker 1: time for political lives, I think that's thirty percent of
Speaker 1: the population thinking about using violence to settle political grievances.
Speaker 2: It's amazing we got in that era, and so with
Speaker 2: this TLF group that their ideology is basically free Palestine,
Speaker 2: free Hawaii, free Puerto Rico, and free the world from
Speaker 2: American imperialism. By blowing up targets in Los Angeles, one
Speaker 2: just scratches their head as someone outside this going hot,
Speaker 2: how do you connect all those dusts together to the
Speaker 2: point while we're going to free Hawaii, which is a state,
Speaker 2: free Puerto Rico, by blowing up Los Angeles. You just
Speaker 2: wonder what kind of world these people live in. And
Speaker 2: that's a scary part. Is there a when I investigate
Speaker 2: these people? Is there a mental component to this thing?
Speaker 2: Because it sounds.
Speaker 1: Crazy, you know, it's it's very difficult to understand the
Speaker 1: causes of it. Now that I've been believed for a
Speaker 1: very long time that ideas and ideologies are behind the violence.
Speaker 1: You know that the lies can kill, whether they're coming
Speaker 1: from the propaganda's coming from the left or the right.
Speaker 1: But you're seeing something about many of the perpetrators. People
Speaker 1: are arrestler. People commit these crimes are they're socially isolated,
Speaker 1: they're narcissistic, and they're neahilistic. They don't believe in nothing,
Speaker 1: and but there's some joy they can get, some sense
Speaker 1: of personal satisfaction they derive from belonging to some organization
Speaker 1: of Total Island Liberation front. I mean, for Christ's sakes,
Speaker 1: because one, I want a sense of purpose, a sense
Speaker 1: of meaning, and and and so it's a deep psychological
Speaker 1: and sociological problem that those of us who study domestic
Speaker 1: terrorism are trying to understand and try to come to
Speaker 1: terms with.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you Mark and Slucky, you put these
Speaker 2: people out there and give them a browser, and they
Speaker 2: find each other, and that that really is the problem.
Speaker 2: That's all we're seeing arise in all this. Because now
Speaker 2: you may have the most crazy views in the world
Speaker 2: about stuff, whether it's terrorism, whether it's I don't know,
Speaker 2: sexual proclivities, anything like that, you can find kindred spirits
Speaker 2: online and form a group.
Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly true. You know when you see these these
Speaker 1: small little groups that are very amateuristic, right, that scares me.
Speaker 1: It worries me deeply. But you talk about communicating to
Speaker 1: one another. I'd rather have a conspiracy of five, six,
Speaker 1: seven people because the more people involved in conspiracy, more
Speaker 1: likely the authorities can discover it. What really terrifies me.
Speaker 1: Is the true lone wolf. Whether they're inspired by isis
Speaker 1: like these people in our Australia or inspired by something else.
Speaker 1: They act alone and the radicalization is deep. It's linked
Speaker 1: to psychological issues as well. They come from come from
Speaker 1: dysfunctional families and that is a phenomenon that's very difficult
Speaker 1: for us to monitor, particularly in the society like ours
Speaker 1: that believes in freedom, civil liberties. So we're you know,
Speaker 1: body Beach scares the heck out of me. We had
Speaker 1: that right in twenty eighteen, right the Tree of Life
Speaker 1: in Pittsburgh, eleven dead by a lone person, Robert Power.
Speaker 1: So what we just saw linked to a Holica celebration
Speaker 1: is to people, look myself, monitor this very very disconcerted,
Speaker 1: very frightening.
Speaker 2: Yeah. He's doctor Mark a Tlaco, University of Date and
Speaker 2: former International Studies program director, also a founder Human Rights
Speaker 2: Studies program, expert in political terrorism. And as we're talking
Speaker 2: about today with the thwarted plot in Los Angeles New
Speaker 2: Year's Eve, five separate locations in LA targeted by this
Speaker 2: Turtle Island Liberation Front groom, extreme left wing group. We're
Speaker 2: making IEDs in the desert and or stopped by the
Speaker 2: FBI because of the work of a confidential inflorment. Of course,
Speaker 2: you know, we just had the Bondi Beach shooting, the
Speaker 2: massacre there, and we talk about domestic terrorism this morning,
Speaker 2: which has been a concern now for the past decade
Speaker 2: and a half at least. We've gone from international terrorism
Speaker 2: to domestic terrorism now. And for the reasons we've just described,
Speaker 2: this group plan mark to attack corporate targets two US
Speaker 2: companies opposed to like government buildings. And you know, obviously
Speaker 2: the ICE was involved in this too as well. It's
Speaker 2: not solely based on corporate targets as well, but attacking
Speaker 2: capitalist infrastructure rather than people. Are they following like that indicaate,
Speaker 2: like they're following a specific playbook here, or they just
Speaker 2: determined that these two ES companies for whatever reason were
Speaker 2: easier targets, or take us through what you think might
Speaker 2: the selection process might be.
Speaker 1: Well, this is very similar to the domestic terrorism in
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, which was driven by the left right.
Speaker 1: So you had the weather Underground, the weather man organizations
Speaker 1: like this. You remember they blew up a townhouse in
Speaker 1: Manhattan when they're making a bomb and malfunction and it
Speaker 1: was killed in Dustin's. Dustin Hoffman's apartment was right next
Speaker 1: to the So these people were out there. So they
Speaker 1: had this crazy ideology that capitalism. They're Marxists, right, So
Speaker 1: capitalism is the root of all evil, and that means
Speaker 1: corporate capitalism. And so you turned corporations and the letter
Speaker 1: bombs were sent to major corporations, and of course symbols
Speaker 1: of American imperialism, the military, right, the Pentagon, your bomb,
Speaker 1: the Pentegon. I remember having a conversation with Bernard Adorn
Speaker 1: was convicted of planting a bomb at the depending On
Speaker 1: to get into her ideology. So there was this crazy idea.
Speaker 1: You know, you said a minute ago, how do you
Speaker 1: link free Puerto Rico to free to liberal? They can?
Speaker 1: Their ideology is such they can for us. It's it
Speaker 1: takes leaps and bounds to move from one idea to
Speaker 1: the other. That they all blown together, so that I'm
Speaker 1: worried about. You know, we saw a while back the
Speaker 1: alone individual shoots to dad U Healthcare CEO in New York.
Speaker 1: Because you're striking a blow. You're striking a blow for
Speaker 1: the revolution. The language, you know, I study of their language.
Speaker 1: You know, these are crimes, these are revolutionary acts, right,
Speaker 1: or they're armed propaganda. I mean they've they've got a vocabulary,
Speaker 1: entire glossary of ideas that justify violence. And you read
Speaker 1: their their their their, their statements right their community case,
Speaker 1: they're absurd, they're ridiculous. But yeah, you know, for a
Speaker 1: long time, you've I talked about this several times. The
Speaker 1: threat has been on the right, the anti Semitic groups
Speaker 1: and theo Nazi groups, the anti immigration groups. But hey,
Speaker 1: left still out there and there's reasons to strike a
Speaker 1: blow for the revolutionism.
Speaker 2: Do we see the pendulum swing in these times? Mark
Speaker 2: Ensilaco in that when you have a Democrat or democrats
Speaker 2: electic control of the government, that you start to see
Speaker 2: a rise on the right of domestic terrorism. And conversely,
Speaker 2: when it appears Republicans control, everything goes on the left
Speaker 2: rise up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good, workable hypothesis, and it's not quite
Speaker 1: as simple as that, but yeah, I mean, when, for example,
Speaker 1: when Barack Obama was elected I heard African American was
Speaker 1: elected president, you saw a rapid increase in the numbers
Speaker 1: of individuals who joined either anti Semitic groups, no Nazi groups,
Speaker 1: or whatever. So there was that reaction to the sort
Speaker 1: of unpresident thing of an African American becoming uh. I
Speaker 1: remember the brother lie right, the Birther stuff false right, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that that that narrative provides the basis for
Speaker 1: a justification of the violent tacks. So yeah, I mainly
Speaker 1: how to put this, I think we're not seeing a
Speaker 1: real number increase the number of left wing groups, but
Speaker 1: it's it's quite possible most of the violence lately has
Speaker 1: been has been on the right.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And and maybe it is because of that
Speaker 2: starting to go the other way. And and both those
Speaker 2: groups on the right and left can touch hands because
Speaker 2: of their unhinged beliefs and whatever. Vilification as that comes
Speaker 2: from the candidates and and politics to party system as well,
Speaker 2: is your job is to vilify the other side. And
Speaker 2: then there are people on the extremes and the margins,
Speaker 2: uh that take that to an extreme level, and they
Speaker 2: just continue to fuel it when they talk about you know,
Speaker 2: you know that's attacking or killing your opponents. The other
Speaker 2: thing going I hear too, Mark. I wanted to bring
Speaker 2: this up is most speaking of terrorism, Trump just designated
Speaker 2: Venezuela a foreign terrorist organization and ordered a blockade of
Speaker 2: all US anctioned oil tanker service in the country. Kind
Speaker 2: of an escalation in this to a degree in Venezuela
Speaker 2: just came out of the blue as to the threat
Speaker 2: that they pose. And I think what is clearly what's
Speaker 2: going on here, and tell me if I'm wrong, is
Speaker 2: that the pretext is drugs. Because we all hate drugs.
Speaker 2: We're anti drug we warn drugs, ventanyls killing our society.
Speaker 2: It's universally condemned. We target drug boats first. That provides
Speaker 2: our political and military cover because you know, administrations have
Speaker 2: found broad public support for actions against drug traffickers and
Speaker 2: drug dealers. And so now we've moved to the oil
Speaker 2: confiscation control part, which was probably the whole reason we
Speaker 2: did this in the first place.
Speaker 1: True, well, this Venezuelan situation is puzzling and it's worrisome.
Speaker 1: You know, the war on drugs, yeah, scent and al
Speaker 1: is killing Americans by the thousands, and yet the President
Speaker 1: United States pardons the former president of Honduras who had
Speaker 1: turned Honduras into an arco state. That's inexplicable to me.
Speaker 1: Americans need to play attention to what's going to slow
Speaker 1: burn in Venezuela, particularly MAGA supporters who sincerely wanted the
Speaker 1: United States out of endless wars. Well, it looks like
Speaker 1: the president's dragging us into a regional war. Now. Granted,
Speaker 1: Venezuela won't take along the overthrow off the Marines land,
Speaker 1: but the naval, the military build up is incredible. And
Speaker 1: you know, let me give you a piece of news
Speaker 1: that was buried the sky. A blue a jet, a
Speaker 1: pressenger jet was flying from Coursau to New York and
Speaker 1: a US Air Force fuel refueling tanker cut it off
Speaker 1: with the two miles over twenty seconds from miror collision.
Speaker 1: But the plan had its transpond off and wasn't pinging.
Speaker 1: It was involved in a colandestine operation militant when we
Speaker 1: nearly had a midair collision. Related to remember, President said
Speaker 1: a few weeks ago that airlines should consider the airspace
Speaker 1: in Venezuela's off limits as too dangerous. I mean, what's
Speaker 1: going on is something that needs to be paid attention to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but clearly the the oil is meant to pring pressure
Speaker 1: on Cuba and around in North Korea too. Uh So,
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you've got the the shootings of
Speaker 1: the boats get the boat singings. Three more well, in
Speaker 1: the last few days, three more boats were blown up
Speaker 1: by by our aircraft. But now so there's that that's
Speaker 1: one drugs, but the rest of the president's action seemed
Speaker 1: to be to destabilized to overthrow Maduro. So Americans need
Speaker 1: to pay attention and decide do we want to go
Speaker 1: in this direction? And then you know, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people pay much attention to it. But the whole
Speaker 1: issue over war crimes in that double tap the first
Speaker 1: of September, our destruction of the one vote where there's
Speaker 1: a second strike twenty minutes later killed two and the
Speaker 1: Secretary of Defense, I won't say secretary of war, Secretary
Speaker 1: of Defense refused to release the raw footage of that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so there are things that really Americans, you and I
Speaker 1: have seen the ebbs and flow of American politics. Recognize
Speaker 1: the importance of our institutions and their principles and our norms,
Speaker 1: and those are a thread.
Speaker 2: But that's the danger of the times in which you're
Speaker 2: in because you know you have to pledge allegiance to
Speaker 2: as opposed to the Constitution. It's one individual in this case,
Speaker 2: Donald Trump, And if you criticize that say, you know,
Speaker 2: you're thrown out of the collective herd or somehow you're
Speaker 2: seen as an enemy. But yeah, there're a problem here
Speaker 2: is just ignoring the Constitution exists for and it's got
Speaker 2: us thus far. That's probably what we should be looking at. Nonetheless, Yeah,
Speaker 2: final point, go ahead, Mark.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, back to the earlier point you made
Speaker 1: with the rise of the left, that was a bit
Speaker 1: of a surprise. We knew the right was acting, but
Speaker 1: I sort of I did imagine that the left would
Speaker 1: radicalize because I've got three more years of Trump. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: and other people believe he's destroying the constitution, he's an incipiate,
Speaker 1: the autocrat, he's pro potent, et cetera, et cetera. If
Speaker 1: you believe that that the president is really the danger,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's a recipe for for for insurrections.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've dehumanized and made the made the you know,
Speaker 2: the figurehead. He's the problem and he's he's going to
Speaker 2: destroy bus I said that he's destroying America. Uh, people
Speaker 2: like this. Hear that in this Turtle Island Liberation Front,
Speaker 2: and they're going to take that to an extreme. He's
Speaker 2: doctor Mark Ansilaco University Dayton political terrorism expert Mark always
Speaker 2: enjoyed the condo. Thanks again, happy how they same to you?
Speaker 2: All right, take care. Let me get a time out in.
Speaker 2: We're running light. We got to get some news in.
Speaker 2: We got weather moving in. We had fifty below zero
Speaker 2: and six inches of snow a couple days ago. Now
Speaker 2: we got all the snow melting and warm and it's
Speaker 2: gonna rain, that's gonna turn icy again. Welcome to Cincinnati,
Speaker 2: baby seven under w