1
00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:06,320
Speaker 1: It's nice Dan, I'm gugging easy Finding news radio.

2
00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,560
Speaker 2: Well, we're going to talk about an event that happened

3
00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,600
Speaker 2: in Boston thirty six years ago early this morning, at

4
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:22,160
Speaker 2: about one twenty four am, two men dressed as Boston

5
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:27,240
Speaker 2: police officers basically talked their way into an art museum

6
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,639
Speaker 2: or a museum here in Boston thirty six years ago

7
00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:36,400
Speaker 2: this morning, and they stole thirteen works of art. There

8
00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:41,760
Speaker 2: were three Rembrandts, including the Storm, which is basically Jesus

9
00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:46,280
Speaker 2: and his apostles in a boat on the tumultuous sea

10
00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:51,320
Speaker 2: of Galilee. Also a Lady and Gentleman in black and

11
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 2: a and Rembrandt, a small self portrait, as well as

12
00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,440
Speaker 2: one work by Vermir called the Concert. Others by an

13
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,560
Speaker 2: artist who I'm not familiar with, Flink's landscape with an obelisk,

14
00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:11,280
Speaker 2: five sketches by Dega de gay, Monet che Tortini, an

15
00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 2: ancient Chinese vaz vase, and a bronze finial eagle from

16
00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,480
Speaker 2: the top of a Napoleonic flag. There was a ten

17
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,640
Speaker 2: million dollar reward offered, so they said the value of

18
00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,080
Speaker 2: these works of art, thirteen in all, estimated to be

19
00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 2: about five hundred million dollars by today's by today's standards,

20
00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,200
Speaker 2: there were suspects, but no one was ever charged, the

21
00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 2: works of art were never found. And we are delighted

22
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 2: to be joined by Anthony Moray who's been on this

23
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,600
Speaker 2: show before. He is now the director of security and

24
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:53,440
Speaker 2: chief investigator at the Gardener Museum, which is a wonderful

25
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,280
Speaker 2: place to venture in Boston, in the kind of what

26
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,160
Speaker 2: I would call the Longwood area of Boston, not far

27
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,960
Speaker 2: from the Fens, not too far from Fenway Park. Actually,

28
00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,200
Speaker 2: Anthony wrote a book in There's a two thousand and

29
00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,600
Speaker 2: five called The Rembrandt Heist, which was a book really

30
00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:19,239
Speaker 2: about about another career art thief criminal, Miles O'Connor. But

31
00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 2: I don't think Anthony think Miles thinks that Miles had

32
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,880
Speaker 2: anything to do with the Gardner heist. Anthony, welcome back

33
00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:26,639
Speaker 2: to Nightside.

34
00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:28,760
Speaker 3: Thank you, Dan, thanks for having me.

35
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I just did want to mention your book

36
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,799
Speaker 2: and you struck up a, you know, an interesting relationship

37
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,600
Speaker 2: with Miles O'Connor, who's sort of legendary here in Boston.

38
00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,320
Speaker 2: You don't think O'Connor had anything to do with the

39
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,600
Speaker 2: the Gardener heist.

40
00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 3: No, Miles was safely behind bars of the Federal Penitentiary

41
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,919
Speaker 3: at the time of the heist. But you know, it's

42
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,720
Speaker 3: an interesting thing because they did call to make sure

43
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,520
Speaker 3: that he you know, they did a bed check to

44
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:02,800
Speaker 3: make sure that he had escaped and done this because

45
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,160
Speaker 3: he had robbed over thirty museums.

46
00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:09,079
Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, is he still alive. I haven't talked to

47
00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,280
Speaker 2: you in a couple of years. Is he still around?

48
00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:13,760
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yes, I spoke to them last night as

49
00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,440
Speaker 3: a matter of fact. So live and kicking and hasn't

50
00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:18,560
Speaker 3: lost a step.

51
00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,120
Speaker 2: Out living amongst us. He's outliving amongst us.

52
00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:27,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's not far from us. And yeah he's retired.

53
00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,320
Speaker 3: He's not stealing anything anymore. But it's a really interesting guy.

54
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,600
Speaker 2: I hope he has a good pension from it.

55
00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,920
Speaker 4: That's the one thing criminals never come away with his.

56
00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:46,880
Speaker 2: Yea, I asked you picked up on my sarcastic comment.

57
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 2: So you know you were not at the Gardener Museum

58
00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,600
Speaker 2: when this happened in nineteen ninety. Now you've been there

59
00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 2: now since two thousand and five, so you've been there

60
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,960
Speaker 2: for twenty one years, and you have followed all the

61
00:04:02,080 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 2: twists and turns in this fascinating story, a sad story.

62
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 2: Is it your sense that someday, somehow, some way, these

63
00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:18,919
Speaker 2: price these you know, invaluable pieces of art will eventually

64
00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:23,200
Speaker 2: be discovered. Do you still harbor that that optimistic belief?

65
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,680
Speaker 3: Oh? I absolutely do, And I believe that because you know,

66
00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,000
Speaker 3: I work on this case, as you mentioned, for over

67
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,800
Speaker 3: twenty years alongside the FBI and the agents that are

68
00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,359
Speaker 3: working on it now. They're young, and they're energetic, and

69
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,560
Speaker 3: they're you know, they understand the gravity of the loss,

70
00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,080
Speaker 3: and we're doing a lot of work. We're very active.

71
00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,480
Speaker 3: We know so much about this theft. But bean with

72
00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,239
Speaker 3: this sort of thing, there's only one thing that matters.

73
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 3: It's getting the paintings back so you have them. It

74
00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,840
Speaker 3: doesn't matter how much you know. Well, that matters is

75
00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,440
Speaker 3: are they on the wall or not? And they are not.

76
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 2: I know that you technically you're you're not in law enforcement,

77
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 2: and I understand that. And obviously if I ask any

78
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,280
Speaker 2: questions that get too close to the nerve in terms

79
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 2: of information that you might have, you can free and

80
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,000
Speaker 2: feel free to tell me. But just parenthetically, did you

81
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 2: ever run into a character in terms of the art

82
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,080
Speaker 2: theft world? Guy named Richard Tchaikowsky.

83
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:33,359
Speaker 3: I uh, well, yeah, that's a I know. Let me

84
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:37,159
Speaker 3: put this. I know a lot about Richard Tchikowsky. I

85
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,880
Speaker 3: know his daughter. Yes, it was a really interesting, smart

86
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:43,719
Speaker 3: person who knows a heck of a lot. I know

87
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,479
Speaker 3: she had a podcast and she's been very helpful to me.

88
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 3: So yeah, I know very well who you mean, fat Richie.

89
00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:54,800
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I he reached out to me. I

90
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 2: don't know, it's got to be twenty five years ago. Uh.

91
00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:03,719
Speaker 2: And he basically worked in some form of fashion with

92
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:09,960
Speaker 2: the FBI where he would have access to stolen paintings

93
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,160
Speaker 2: or get pictures of stolen paintings. And I guess there's

94
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,919
Speaker 2: a circuit of wealthy people that, do you know, purchase

95
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:21,280
Speaker 2: these items. And he showed me some pictures of him

96
00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:28,360
Speaker 2: meeting with I'll describe them as, you know, elegant, wealthy

97
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,840
Speaker 2: New Yorkers, at least that's what we told me they

98
00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:35,400
Speaker 2: were who he was trying to basically fence stolen paintings

99
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 2: to and and he made a living at it because

100
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 2: he would get a percentage of the amount of money

101
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:44,400
Speaker 2: that was recovered.

102
00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:52,960
Speaker 3: I mean, it's well, it's an interesting still there a

103
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,640
Speaker 3: gap at what you're saying, because he he is, you know,

104
00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,960
Speaker 3: he's passed away, and I can I can speak about this.

105
00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:03,039
Speaker 3: He's one of the great continent of all time. I

106
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 3: would estimates he made well over a million dollars in

107
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:12,840
Speaker 3: his lifetime, conning people about his ability to return the

108
00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,880
Speaker 3: gardener paintings, telling people and showing documents saying he worked

109
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,720
Speaker 3: for the on behalf of the FBI, depicting himself as

110
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 3: someone who had returned paintings in the past. He had

111
00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,720
Speaker 3: a couple of times he was a useful employment, but

112
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,960
Speaker 3: he was never someone who was able to sell master

113
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,120
Speaker 3: works to a rich person. And that's what you're describing

114
00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 3: to me as just another part of his really elaborate

115
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,600
Speaker 3: cons that made him a lot of money.

116
00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:41,280
Speaker 2: No, I get it. I know, I understand that. I

117
00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,800
Speaker 2: have a funny story, and then we can move on

118
00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,160
Speaker 2: to the story he had. When a bunch of Catholic

119
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,160
Speaker 2: churches were closed in the early two thousands. I was

120
00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,560
Speaker 2: at at one of the churches, I think it was

121
00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,600
Speaker 2: in Weymouth, and the Perissians, of course, are very upset

122
00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 2: and they were going to have a sleep in and

123
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 2: keep the church, you know, with parishioners in there. And

124
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 2: they were very concerned about the church being stolen. So

125
00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:10,600
Speaker 2: this day, I'm basically at this church for the for

126
00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,200
Speaker 2: the day, and my good friend Mike Macklin was working

127
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,200
Speaker 2: for Channel seven at the time, so he was a

128
00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,440
Speaker 2: good friend, but he was sort of a competitor. So

129
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 2: Tchikowsky called me and he had to talk. He had

130
00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 2: to talk to me about something he couldn't couldn't talk

131
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 2: over the phone, had to talk to me, and so

132
00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,880
Speaker 2: he said, I'll come wherever you are and I'll meet you.

133
00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,200
Speaker 2: So I said, Okay, here's where I am. I'm at

134
00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:34,720
Speaker 2: this church in Weymouth. And uh, he shows up, you know,

135
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 2: an hour later. Uh, and just at that moment as

136
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,440
Speaker 2: he sits down, and you know that Richard was pretty

137
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 2: portly and probably one of the few times he had

138
00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:50,280
Speaker 2: ever been inside at church in his life. So Mike,

139
00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,600
Speaker 2: Mike Pell Mike Macklin, who was a really good friend

140
00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,120
Speaker 2: and stillicit this day, sits down, and obviously I did

141
00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:58,880
Speaker 2: not want to tell Mike, hey, this is a source

142
00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,080
Speaker 2: of mind and he's kind of an interesting character. And

143
00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,400
Speaker 2: I'm I'm trying to figure out what's what's the truth,

144
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,800
Speaker 2: and what is it? So I turned to Mike, and

145
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,200
Speaker 2: I said, Mike, I said, this gentleman is a long

146
00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,600
Speaker 2: time perission with this parish, and he's really quite upset

147
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,440
Speaker 2: at what is happening to the closing of his beloved church.

148
00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 2: And if you wouldn't mind it, just liked to have

149
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,800
Speaker 2: a few moments with him. Well, well, he grieves. True story,

150
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,840
Speaker 2: true story. And I eventually told told Mike the story,

151
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,280
Speaker 2: and of course he laughed and howled at it. But yeah, oh,

152
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:32,440
Speaker 2: Richard Tzarikowsky.

153
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,520
Speaker 3: Uh uh, he's a legendary figure. And I met Mike yesterday.

154
00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:38,440
Speaker 3: He's a terrific guy.

155
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, great guy, Mike, Mike is a great guy. And

156
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,480
Speaker 2: uh he And it was just one of those moments

157
00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,280
Speaker 2: in time. I told him a few days later. You know,

158
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:51,320
Speaker 2: as much as Richard, Richard would always try to yeah,

159
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,240
Speaker 2: can I can I borrow five hundred or something? And

160
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 2: and once I heard that, I said, Richard, I said,

161
00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,640
Speaker 2: would I'd love to give you the money. I wouldn't,

162
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,040
Speaker 2: you know, lent it to you, Richard, because I know

163
00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,319
Speaker 2: he was scamming me. So I figured I had to

164
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,360
Speaker 2: scam him. And I'd say, but if if I gave

165
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,040
Speaker 2: him a five hundred or let you borrow five hundred

166
00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 2: to be unethical as a as a reporter, which I

167
00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't do anyway because I was not going to get scammed,

168
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,840
Speaker 2: and I would have these conversations and there was nothing

169
00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,520
Speaker 2: that he ever came up with. But boy, I got

170
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,560
Speaker 2: to know him pretty well and got some insight into

171
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,480
Speaker 2: into that that community. Okay, can we get back. What

172
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,240
Speaker 2: I want to do is I want to pick your

173
00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,440
Speaker 2: your mind about what do you think happened. I know

174
00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,559
Speaker 2: you probably have some thoughts, and I'd love to see

175
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,280
Speaker 2: if you take some phone calls from from some of

176
00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,040
Speaker 2: our listeners. These are I got to believe that the

177
00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,000
Speaker 2: three rem brands the most, including of course the Storm

178
00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 2: that that picks Jesus and his disciples on the on

179
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,360
Speaker 2: the Sea of Galilee. That's the big kahona in this

180
00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 2: and they're all important, don't get me wrong, But am

181
00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,440
Speaker 2: I correct and saying and you you're the art expert,

182
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 2: I'm not that brand is the big kahuna here of all.

183
00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,520
Speaker 3: That's the one that's most recognizable, but it's the second

184
00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,960
Speaker 3: biggest and the vermire. The concert is not just the

185
00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,880
Speaker 3: most valuable of the stolen Gardner pieces, but it's arguably

186
00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,200
Speaker 3: the most valuable thing that's ever been stolen. It's oh yeah,

187
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 3: you can. I always say you could put virtually any

188
00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 3: price tag on the on the concert by Vermire and

189
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 3: make a good argument for it. It's that important and

190
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:32,480
Speaker 3: that valuable.

191
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:38,160
Speaker 2: Wow. My guest is Anthony Moreriy. His book The Rembrandt

192
00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,439
Speaker 2: Heist is not talking about this case, but it's talking

193
00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,160
Speaker 2: about another Rembrandt. Was that Rembrandt that that is outlined

194
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 2: in the Miles O'Connor book. Was that eventually returned?

195
00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 3: Yes, because Miles stole it to get out of trouble.

196
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,800
Speaker 3: He stole it from the MFA in nineteen seventy five.

197
00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 3: It's just the most incredible art deft story I've ever

198
00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,679
Speaker 3: read or heard. So I wrote it. I decided to

199
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:02,559
Speaker 3: write a book about it.

200
00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 2: It's a great book. It's it's a great book. I

201
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,240
Speaker 2: want to talk about that. I also want to talk

202
00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 2: about some of the authors that were made to is

203
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,280
Speaker 2: it Richard Gentilly or Genteel.

204
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,640
Speaker 3: Gentilly, Bobby Gentile.

205
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,760
Speaker 2: Bobby Gentile excuse me? Uh? And you know there's such

206
00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,280
Speaker 2: a cast of characters here. Uh, It's it's astonishing that

207
00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,880
Speaker 2: they lived. They well they some of them have passed on,

208
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,320
Speaker 2: but they lived amongst us. We'll take a break. My

209
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:29,600
Speaker 2: guest is Anthony Mooring.

210
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:30,440
Speaker 5: Uh.

211
00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,800
Speaker 2: He is the director of security and chief investigator at

212
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,520
Speaker 2: the I sometimes referred to as the Missus Jack Gardner Museum,

213
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:43,320
Speaker 2: but it's the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum like that.

214
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:44,520
Speaker 3: That's that's a throwback.

215
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,319
Speaker 2: I like that expression, missus Jack Gardner. Yeah. Well, I

216
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,600
Speaker 2: went to Latin school and we were forced to go

217
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,800
Speaker 2: over and visit and admire. I mean because at that

218
00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,200
Speaker 2: time where your kids, your your teenagers, you're kind of cynical.

219
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,680
Speaker 2: But it is a beautiful, uh institution, and I was

220
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,640
Speaker 2: there recently, a couple of years ago, and it is

221
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:10,880
Speaker 2: just a stunning, stunning location and a it's it's on

222
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,680
Speaker 2: such a small plot of land, but there's so much

223
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 2: internally in the building. It's extraordinary. It is really extraordinary.

224
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,160
Speaker 2: We'll be back with Anthony Moore. Your phone call six

225
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:27,720
Speaker 2: one seven six one seven nine thirty coming back on Nightside.

226
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:33,319
Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news Radio.

227
00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 2: Anthony, I know that you were not involved at the

228
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 2: at the museum at the time of the theft, but

229
00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,920
Speaker 2: you have to now having been there for twenty six years,

230
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:51,960
Speaker 2: as concerned as and as informed as anyone. Do you

231
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,800
Speaker 2: think this was a job that was done by, you know,

232
00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,559
Speaker 2: real art thieves or do you think it was people

233
00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,800
Speaker 2: who stumbled into a situation and once they stole, what

234
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,800
Speaker 2: they thought was they didn't know the value and they

235
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:11,440
Speaker 2: decided that they had to hide it, bury it. Which

236
00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 2: which do you tend towards it? And how certain are

237
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,319
Speaker 2: you as to which tendency you feel will eventually be

238
00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,440
Speaker 2: shown to be true.

239
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 3: I think that the latter scenario, Dan, I think he

240
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,680
Speaker 3: described it really well. I would say that. I mean

241
00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,720
Speaker 3: that the men who stole the paintings from the museum,

242
00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:36,520
Speaker 3: they they knew they were stealing very valuable items, There's

243
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,480
Speaker 3: no question about it. But I think you hit the

244
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,760
Speaker 3: nail on the head in that they didn't realize when

245
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 3: they woke up the next morning that these were worth

246
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,880
Speaker 3: hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, if you look

247
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:52,400
Speaker 3: at every every I always say, every museum in Massachusetts

248
00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 3: that had a Rembrandt was robbed before the gardener's paintings

249
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,320
Speaker 3: were robbed. And if you look at you know, those

250
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,680
Speaker 3: stories and headlines every time one was robbed, you'd see,

251
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,320
Speaker 3: you know, five million dollars would be the biggest amount

252
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,000
Speaker 3: you'd see for one of these heists. So when these

253
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:11,760
Speaker 3: guys wake up the next day, as I said, and

254
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,160
Speaker 3: realize what they've stolen is worth hundreds of millions, and

255
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,080
Speaker 3: it's on front page of every newspaper around the world,

256
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:26,120
Speaker 3: they realized immediately these things can't be moved. They were

257
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,320
Speaker 3: so hot and so valuable there's really no way to

258
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,200
Speaker 3: sell them. So I think that is the worst case

259
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:32,960
Speaker 3: scenario for us.

260
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,640
Speaker 2: So they're so hot and they're so valuable, they have

261
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,280
Speaker 2: no real value to them because it's impossible whoever they

262
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,880
Speaker 2: would sell them to that they would probably then at

263
00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:48,440
Speaker 2: that point definitely get go to prison exactly.

264
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:50,560
Speaker 3: And that's why I always say, you know, the Gardner Museum,

265
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 3: we have a ten million dollar reward. We're the only

266
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 3: buyer for these things, and you're not going to beat

267
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 3: that price, you know. So that's why we're hopeful we'll

268
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,360
Speaker 3: get them.

269
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,920
Speaker 2: So they wake up the next day, they realize that

270
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,920
Speaker 2: they've been very successful. They pulled it off. You know,

271
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,240
Speaker 2: it wasn't what you call high level security. I'm sure

272
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,000
Speaker 2: the security at the Guardian Museum now is much greater

273
00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,400
Speaker 2: than what it was back thirty six years ago tonight.

274
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,400
Speaker 2: What do you think that they that they said, we

275
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 2: got to put these somewhere where they'll never be found

276
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,520
Speaker 2: because we want to we don't want to go to prison.

277
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 2: They could, they couldn't afford to give them away. I

278
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 2: guess I.

279
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 3: Think they understood that it was really hot property, that

280
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,600
Speaker 3: the authorities were looking for them. We immediately had a

281
00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 3: one million dollar reward back in nineteen ninety, so you

282
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 3: know everybody was looking for and we know that all

283
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 3: of the criminal element in Massachusetts was trying to get

284
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 3: the hands on these things. So so I think I

285
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 3: think that's the worst case scenario for us, because then

286
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,560
Speaker 3: they get hidden that much deeper.

287
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:07,639
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's assume that's true. And again I'm asking

288
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,000
Speaker 2: you general questions because they don't want to in any way,

289
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 2: shape or form impinge on information that you might have.

290
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:20,000
Speaker 2: Is in your sense that these works of art they

291
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 2: have to be in the United States? Do you think

292
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 2: this any way they could have been moved out of

293
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:24,199
Speaker 2: the country.

294
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:29,040
Speaker 3: No, I you know, anything's possible, of course, but the

295
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 3: odds that they left the country are incredibly slim. We've

296
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 3: never get any valid information about that happening. There's no

297
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:41,399
Speaker 3: precedent for happening, even just simply for the reason that

298
00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,800
Speaker 3: you'd have to go through customs with these things, and

299
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:50,800
Speaker 3: they're so recognizable it's impossible. So we feel pretty certain

300
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,119
Speaker 3: that they're here, not just in the US, but in

301
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 3: the local area.

302
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,479
Speaker 2: So Gentilly, this guy who died in twenty twenty one,

303
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 2: the guy from Connecticut, a lobster. He was offered quite

304
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 2: a deal, similar to what Miles O'Connor was offered. He

305
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 2: was facing some serious charges. Do you think that that

306
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,280
Speaker 2: that he kept it to himself and just didn't want

307
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:14,800
Speaker 2: to be known as a rat, or do you think

308
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,440
Speaker 2: he actually, at the end of the day knew nothing

309
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 2: about where these these works of art actually were.

310
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:26,439
Speaker 3: I think that when it comes to Gentile, that here's

311
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:31,000
Speaker 3: he knew something that he wasn't willing to share. My hunch,

312
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,960
Speaker 3: and it's just a hunch because he was such a

313
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,439
Speaker 3: stone or and then he would lie. He was a

314
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 3: he was an unbelievable liar. I mean, he's the sort

315
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 3: of guy that would tell you that this guy's green,

316
00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,879
Speaker 3: it's not blue, it with a straight face. But I

317
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,960
Speaker 3: think that he might have known something, But what he

318
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 3: knew probably wasn't of any value to us that at

319
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,159
Speaker 3: the time when we spoke to him, so he so

320
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 3: he would say nothing. I don't think think my own

321
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 3: hunchild I could be wrong, but I don't believe that

322
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 3: he could have told us. I don't believe he had

323
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,200
Speaker 3: them when he passed away, and I don't. I think

324
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 3: that's highly unlikely. I think he would have dealt with us.

325
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,359
Speaker 2: Okay, we got to take We've got to go to

326
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:17,960
Speaker 2: a newscast. I could talk to you about this all night,

327
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,480
Speaker 2: but stay there. We got about a three minute break

328
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 2: for a minute three and a half minute break. We

329
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,760
Speaker 2: come back. We get to phone callers. I want to

330
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 2: continue to talk with you on this because they don't

331
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 2: get the chance to privately. I'm still looking to go

332
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,000
Speaker 2: and have dinner with you some night and ask questions

333
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 2: that I was as crazy as you know. There has

334
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 2: to be an answer to this question. This is like

335
00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,480
Speaker 2: trying to figure out the meaning of life. I mean,

336
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,520
Speaker 2: everyone wants to know the answer, and we will see.

337
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 2: Who knows. Someone will be listening right right now, might

338
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,080
Speaker 2: know they're not going to call us, but maybe well

339
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 2: we'll encourage them to think about the ten million dollar reward,

340
00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 2: and it's this is an amazing, amazing story and tragic story,

341
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 2: but a tragic story which as far as we know,

342
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 2: has not impacted the loss of life, but the loss

343
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: of of our artistic treasures that really do belong to

344
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,320
Speaker 2: the world. We'll take a break. My guest is Anthony Amory,

345
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: director of security and chief investigator at the Gardner Museum

346
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 2: here in Boston. Six one seven, two, five, four to

347
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 2: ten thirty or six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.

348
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 2: If you've got a theory on any the ear, you

349
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,159
Speaker 2: can talk to someone who knows this story inside and

350
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: out much better than I could ever know it. And

351
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,719
Speaker 2: I'm so delighted that Anthony would give us some time tonight.

352
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 2: He wrote a great book called The Rembrandt Heist, which

353
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,800
Speaker 2: was really a focus on the life of Miles O'Connor,

354
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: one of the great characters of the Boston underworld scene.

355
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 2: We've had our share back on Night Side after this.

356
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Ray Boston's news radio.

357
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 2: We're talking about about the Gardener theft, the hest that

358
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 2: happened thirty six years ago this morning. It is a

359
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 2: story that has fascinated all of us for a third

360
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 2: of a century, more than a third of the century,

361
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 2: and fascinated Anthony Amory, who's been the director of Security

362
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 2: and chief Investigator at the Garden New Museum here in

363
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 2: Boston since two thousand and five. Okay, Anthony, here's here's

364
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,919
Speaker 2: my question from left field. Okay, if you had if

365
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 2: you take all the and then we're going to go

366
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,480
Speaker 2: to phone calls, if you take all the information that

367
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 2: that has passed through your mind over these you know,

368
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 2: twenty one years at the Gardener Museum, how large a

369
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:48,199
Speaker 2: universe of individuals people do you believe exist today? And

370
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: I'm not looking for a specific number. I'm looking for,

371
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 2: you know, quantification that actually have legitimate information about the

372
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 2: location or what happened to these works of art. I

373
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 2: were talking about a small handful of people at best.

374
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 3: I think that's fair. I'd say, as you were asking

375
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,480
Speaker 3: the question. In my head and this is total speculation,

376
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 3: I was thinking probably around ten who know or less

377
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: who know you know precisely where I can go and

378
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 3: get the paintings tomorrow if I want to get my

379
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 3: hands on them. I think that's probably fair. I hope

380
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 3: it's more sure. That's my that's my intuition.

381
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: So what does your intuition tell you that as time

382
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 2: goes on and people who might have been directly involved die,

383
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 2: does that increase the chances that at some day someone

384
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 2: might wake up and say, you know, ten million dollars.

385
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 2: They may have had nothing to do with the event,

386
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,600
Speaker 2: with the theft, but somehow, some way, either through blood

387
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 2: relations or friendship or stories being passed down within a family,

388
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 2: that now's the time to come forward and take advantage

389
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 2: of that very generous offer.

390
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 3: I think that history tells us that that happens often.

391
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 3: That's why when masterpieces are stolen, it's often any generation

392
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 3: passes before you get them, because exactly what you describe

393
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 3: d and people pass away and maybe the scariest bad

394
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 3: guy in the gang, or you know, an ex husband,

395
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 3: or something where people feel less need to be loyal

396
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 3: or less need to be afraid.

397
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: Perfect. Perfect. I was hoping that I teed it up

398
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:46,239
Speaker 2: in such a way. I'm again, I am guessing. As

399
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 2: you know, we don't script questions here on Night Side.

400
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: I try to follow the conversation and see what questions

401
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 2: come up in my mind as a result of that conversation.

402
00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what I just did, and I'm delighted

403
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 2: with that answer. Let's go to the phone. It's going

404
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: to go to Justin in Marlboro. Justin, you were first

405
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: tonight here in this Hour of Nights I with Anthony Morey,

406
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: one of my best guests.

407
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 4: Go right ahead, Thank you for thank you for the

408
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 4: joining the show, Anthony, and off the while. Question do

409
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,680
Speaker 4: you think in the past thirty six years, this awful,

410
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 4: tragic theft has helped attendance. I'm betting more people have

411
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 4: come to the see the empty paintings than they would

412
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 4: have let's say the robbery never took place. Do you

413
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 4: think there'll be more people visiting the exam in the

414
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 4: past thirty six years or less.

415
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 3: That's an interesting question, Justin. I get that often, and

416
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 3: to be sure, I mean, I'm not going to pretend

417
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 3: that there aren't a lot of people who come to

418
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 3: see the empty frames. Absolutely, but I can tell you

419
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 3: that if you look at the popularity of Vermier around

420
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 3: the world. In the in the United States, to Tea,

421
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 3: we would have had just as many people, if not more,

422
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 3: from Mayor when there was an exhibition I think there's

423
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 3: three years ago. Now in the Netherlands is the biggest

424
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 3: Vermire Exhibition in History, and you just you just couldn't

425
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 3: get a ticket. I couldn't get a ticket. You just

426
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 3: he's just that popular. So I think people would be

427
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: coming to see these things anyway. You know that the

428
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: Rembrandt that then talks about, and I love it too,

429
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: Christ in the Storm the Sea of Galilee. Missus Gardner

430
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 3: called it Christ stilling the water that painting is. It's

431
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 3: the only seascape. I think there would be just as

432
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 3: many people coming to see that as has come to

433
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 3: see MTI frames.

434
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: I'm happy to hear. That's very refreshing to hear that.

435
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 4: And I also wanted to give a plug out to

436
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 4: the concerts they have in the courtyard. I think they're

437
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 4: one if somebody hasn't seen them, they are wonderful.

438
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 2: Well justin thank you very much, very nice call and

439
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: a great way to start off for us tonight. Thank

440
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 2: you so much.

441
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 4: Welcome good night.

442
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 2: Let me go next to Jack and Newton. Jack, you're

443
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 2: next on night Side with Anthony Murray. Jack, right ahead, How.

444
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 5: Are you doing? Yes, mister Murray. Actually Dan knows me

445
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 5: a pretty reliable caller.

446
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 2: YEP.

447
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 5: I have collected the Rembrands etchings, etchings, are not that

448
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 5: expensive of five thousand to twenty thousand. It's the paintings.

449
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 5: Not all paint things. You buy a Rembrandt for a

450
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 5: million dollars or less, but this particular one with the

451
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 5: one and the boat, and they go, no, that's quite

452
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 5: But here's what my intuition tells me. Because either they've

453
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 5: been destroyed by water, wind, mold and forgotten somewhere, or

454
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 5: they've been taken out of the country by diplomatic college.

455
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 5: I know this because I have brought two Russian paintings

456
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 5: from a Jewish family in Russia. They brought it into

457
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 5: this country around twenty five thirty years ago through a

458
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 5: diplomatic couch. They owned it. They weren't stolen or anything

459
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 5: from Russia. So if they can get it from Russia,

460
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 5: hle other country is into it, you can also get

461
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 5: it out. And there's other ways. You know, to put

462
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 5: it inside a suitcase and a linim to there, so

463
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 5: it's really quite easy to get it out of here.

464
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 5: My feeling is that my other intuition is that if

465
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 5: they were smart enough to know these contents, they will

466
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 5: sell it to a very very wealthy Asian or Russian

467
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 5: oligartic and he will buy it for a million of

468
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 5: a cup or whatever, because that's nothing to them. They're billionaires,

469
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 5: and then he will show it to his friends and

470
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 5: no one will ever know about it. So those oft

471
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 5: are too So let us.

472
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: See what Anthony says about those. I don't know how

473
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: easy it is to get things out of Russia, particularly were.

474
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 5: Years ago they were Okay.

475
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: That's fine. I take your word for Jack. I know you.

476
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 2: I take your word for it. Anthony Yo comment on

477
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: Jack's comments, Yeah.

478
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 5: I would.

479
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 3: I would have to disagree with nearly everything Jack said respectfully. First,

480
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 3: it's true that stolen art illicit art comes to the

481
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,440
Speaker 3: United States because we're consumers of it, but it doesn't leave.

482
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 3: There's no precedent for it, Jack. And secondly, in terms

483
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 3: of the art going to some rich person in Asia

484
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 3: or Russia, again no precedent for that at all. And

485
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 3: I would say that why hasn't the person that sold

486
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 3: it to this person in that foreign country then come

487
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 3: to us and say, I know you can get it

488
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 3: and give me ten million dollars. That would be he

489
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 3: could get a double double whammy there. And finally, the

490
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: size of our paintings because the storming thecy of Galley

491
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 3: is five foot four feet. I mean, it's not something

492
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 3: they're going to carry out in the lining of a bag.

493
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: I have a big badge.

494
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: Recognizable works in the world. You're not going to seek

495
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 3: them out. It's just we don't.

496
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 5: But mister Amory, how can you keep something so big

497
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 5: and a garage or some basement and not being destroyed

498
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 5: by mold water when it's impossible? Where you going to

499
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 5: keep that?

500
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: No, no, Jack, that's not true, because I would tell

501
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: you that it's very weird.

502
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 5: Where are you going to keep that?

503
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 2: Jack? Let him finish the answer. You asked a really

504
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: good question. Let him give a good answer.

505
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 3: You can keep it in then attic, you can keep

506
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: it in the basement. People misunderstand the resilience of paintings

507
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 3: like this that people ask me all the time. You

508
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: know the God the paintings are not in climate control

509
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 3: right now wherever somebody is holding them. And I respond

510
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 3: that those paintings never in their lifetime were in climate control.

511
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 3: I mean they were. The storm in the Sea of

512
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: Galley was three hundred and sixty years old when it

513
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 3: was stolen, and it had never been in climate control.

514
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: It was in moldy. The homes in Amster above fireplaces,

515
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 3: and I mean they're fine, they're not solent. Pains don't

516
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 3: come back typically and ury that condition. I'm not hoefully

517
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 3: concerned about that.

518
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: All right, Hey Jack, I got you in before the break,

519
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: but unfortunately I got to get to break here. But

520
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 2: great questions. Thank you, as always appreciate the call. We'll

521
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: be right back with Anthony Mory, the head of security

522
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: at the Gardner Museum. He's been there now for twenty years.

523
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 2: And it is a story we're talking about tonight that

524
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 2: we've talked about for thirty six years, and we might

525
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 2: be talking about it for who knows how long. That's

526
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: that's what makes it so fascinating. Anthony believes that these

527
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 2: paintings will at some point be returned to the Gardner

528
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 2: Museum and all of us, I think, can join him

529
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: in that hope. Back on Nightside right after this.

530
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.

531
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to move quickly here. Let me

532
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: go next quickly to Patty and Wellesley. Patty with Anthony Moore.

533
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 2: Got to hit Patty.

534
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 6: Hi, ANTHONYA. Murray, I'm Dan, the best man in the planet.

535
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 6: Thank you. For having me. Okay, so I came to

536
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 6: be you. I came to be you, and that happened.

537
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 6: That year came and I wondered.

538
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 7: Who would steal that? Because they can't sell it, so

539
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 7: they stole it. There's no selling about paintings, right like

540
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 7: you could get you. They could find anybody anitle in

541
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 7: a haystack. Now, So I'm just wondering who would think

542
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 7: about stealing something like that when you can get caught

543
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 7: because they can't sell it. So what's the point.

544
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 3: Well, Patty, the people that steal these things their their

545
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: thieves for a living, but not art fiees. But they

546
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 3: just steal everything. And and it's a crime of opportunity.

547
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 3: It's you know, it's not it's it's easy to steal

548
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: a painting that it is to say, rob that much

549
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 3: money worth of jewels. So but it's shortsighted. You know,

550
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 3: they're not doing research on what happens to painting to

551
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: them they stolen. They're just stealing them. And then they

552
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: find out the hard way that you know, what they've

553
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 3: stole them can't be sold. However, they do hold out

554
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 3: to them, They do hold out to them and say, well,

555
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: perhaps I can use ease as to get out of

556
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: jail free card that sort of thing. So that makes

557
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: it very difficult to find them.

558
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 7: Oh so what do you think about this, Anthony?

559
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 6: Like karma is something that bites everybody except for you

560
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 6: know who. I'm sorry about that wrong discussion, But like

561
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 6: the karma that these thieves have, is it worth it

562
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 6: to go to bed every night knowing that you're a

563
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 6: criminal on the kara?

564
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 7: That is a touch.

565
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 4: I wonder if they're like.

566
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 6: They've had really bad lives by stealing such beautiful treasures.

567
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: We'll only know, Patty, once they find out who it was, right,

568
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,239
Speaker 2: You never know, Patty, Patty, I gotta keep rolling here

569
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: because I got, I got. He's one of my most

570
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: popular guests. I got to bring him back, that's for sure.

571
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I again begs Patty.

572
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: Talk to you soon, Doug. Do you soon?

573
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 6: I love your voice?

574
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: Done well, right back at you. We will have coffee

575
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: at kay, brad to I promise, Okay, thank you so much.

576
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 7: Every day it's my treat.

577
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 2: Okay, no, it's mine, thanks, Patty. Doc to you soon.

578
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 2: Let me go to Bob quickly in Chicago. Bob, you

579
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 2: were next on Nightside with Anthony Mory, go right ahead.

580
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 3: Bob, Hey, Dan, love the show, love you well, thank

581
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 3: you man.

582
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: It's nice to know you've have you called before.

583
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 3: I have Dan, we go way back. But yeah, right, okay,

584
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 3: come on time.

585
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: I know who it is. You can go ahead.

586
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 3: You know what is Yeah, yeah, so uh the speaking

587
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: of crime in Boston, the most notorious criminal in Boston

588
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: in the last fifty years is, of course, mister James

589
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 3: Whitey Bulger and the winter Hill Gang and Howie Winter

590
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: Any No one brought it up this evening yet so

591
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 3: any indication of any involvement with either one of those

592
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: in this theft great question. Yeah, yeah, I get.

593
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 5: That a lot.

594
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: I would say that, you know, there are very few

595
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: people that were confident had nothing to do with it,

596
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: and he's one of them. And the reason they say

597
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: that is because you know, every every single person in

598
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 3: his gang cooperated with the Feds and and you know,

599
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 3: talked about their excuse me, I'm sorry, their complicity in

600
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 3: horrifect murders and really troubling crimes that they're not going

601
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 3: to say, Hey, don't ask me about those day gosketches

602
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 3: though you know they they but we do, we do

603
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 3: have information that he was looking for for a couple

604
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 3: of weeks, he had his guys out beating the streets

605
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: because he understood the value. But then they abandoned that

606
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 3: because they weren't successful. They moved on to far Martinez crimes. So,

607
00:34:57,640 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: but it is a good question.

608
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: Thank you, Bob, great, great question. Thank you Dan. Thanks Pal.

609
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 2: We'll talk soon, Okay, email you you know that.

610
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 5: Bye.

611
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: Thanks, thanks Pal, Talk to you soon. Kevin and Cambridge. Kevin,

612
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: I want to get you in one more in Please

613
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 2: go right ahead, Kevin.

614
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 8: Uh And today I did get tickets to that Vermier show.

615
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 8: I spent forty two hours online doing it.

616
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 3: Wow, I'm jealous.

617
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 8: I am. I am a Vermire completist. I'd actually seen

618
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 8: them all before. There's not going to be any more

619
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 8: of us because.

620
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 3: Of this theft until it comes back. I'm trying my

621
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 3: darnist and I agree with you. I mean that the

622
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 3: world needs to see these things. I'm very jealous of

623
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 3: what you've seen in your lifetime.

624
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,399
Speaker 8: I would like to mention something funny, and that is

625
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 8: you will occasionally on television shows and movies about criminals,

626
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 8: they will show one of the paintings in the background

627
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 8: of a shot.

628
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 3: Have you noticed that truth? That's true? And you know

629
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 3: they're supposed to ask our permission. Uh, sometimes they do

630
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 3: and sometimes they don't. But but yes, I and you

631
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 3: know when that happens, everybody I know sends it to me, Man,

632
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 3: and I get flooded to touch the emails about it.

633
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 2: That's great. Well, I didn't realize that.

634
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 8: I just wanted to say, Dan, I was I was

635
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 8: cut to the quick when you thought the Rembrandt was

636
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 8: worth more than.

637
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 2: The very area. Well, I'm sorry, I'm but that's just

638
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 2: so's if we're talking about baseball players, I think I'll

639
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: beat you. But when Rude Rembrandt and Premiere territory, I

640
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 2: know that you're gonna you have more infull on it.

641
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: Thanks Man, appreciate your calling, Kevin, continue to listen to nights.

642
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: Thank you all. We're gonna try to sneak one more

643
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: in here. Phil in Boston. Phil, you're a little late

644
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: that I got you under the wire. We got about

645
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: thirty seconds left.

646
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 4: General was on the case back in the old days.

647
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: But didn't they have some guy that had rucked.

648
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 5: Samples of the painting and the etching and they were

649
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 5: dealing with somebody.

650
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: Well, there was a Herald reporter who I think had

651
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: That is my recollection of that, correct, Anthony.

652
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 3: Yes there's Tom Mashburg. He's a good guy. Yes, that's true.

653
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 5: They dealt with.

654
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 4: You.

655
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 2: Got to feel that was a good one to wrap

656
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: it up on. Thank you, man Is Matshburoks. Thanks toll

657
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: Is mass Brooks. I'm still, you know, in the business

658
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 2: kicking around or I have not heard much of Tom lately.

659
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. He As a matter of fact, he had a

660
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 3: piece in the New York Times today about the god

661
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 3: their fact that I was speaking to him. So he's

662
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:38,360
Speaker 3: a really a good guy.

663
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: Oh.

664
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: I like Tom. Yeah, if you if you talk to him,

665
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 2: please tell him give him my best. And Anthony, thank

666
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: you so much for your time tonight. Maybe we've shaken

667
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: the tree tonight, wouldn't that be?

668
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 3: So you just never know.

669
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: Thanks Anthony, thank you so much. I appreciate your fitness

670
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 2: in tonight. It was a very important hour, and I

671
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: really I think we will use this hour on our

672
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 2: son program at eleven o'clock the best of I think

673
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: that's what we're going to do this Sunday night. So

674
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: we'll have this program on again on Sunday night at

675
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 2: eleven o'clock on WBC.

676
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 3: Thank you, Anthony, my pleasure, Dan, thank you.

677
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: Talk again, we get back. We're going to talk about

678
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,879
Speaker 2: the Save Act, that is the Vote of Registration Act

679
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 2: that Republicans are fighting for Democrats. I'm not too thrilled

680
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 2: about it. I want to know what you think. The

681
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: polls on it suggest it's quite popular. We will see