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Speaker 1: It's night Side with Dan Ray. I'm telling you Boston's.

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Speaker 2: News radio Besideside with Dan Ray, Bradley j Fort Daan.

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Speaker 2: The number here is six one seven. I need you

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Speaker 2: to write that down and you're gonna need it. You're

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Speaker 2: gonna want it really quickly because we're here with Dean Coin.

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Speaker 2: Dean Michael con of the Massachuset the School of Law,

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Speaker 2: no stranger to the program, and I'm glad thanks for

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Speaker 2: being with us.

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Speaker 3: I'm always happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: Bro.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna start out with a little quiz always why not?

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Speaker 2: I warned you what the quiz is gonna be, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I gave you a little time to think

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Speaker 2: over your answer, but I'll repeat it now for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Are you ready? Yes, I'm What are the most famous

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Speaker 2: trials in history? What are the most famous trials in history?

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Speaker 2: Give me four? Now? This is you know from AI,

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Speaker 2: so you can certainly argue on the basis today Ey's

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Speaker 2: wrong and they are wrong a lot. But still this

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Speaker 2: is fun and it kind of makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I'm gonna bet at the outsie at that

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Speaker 3: AI is going to do better than I am on this.

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Speaker 3: I am going to go at least with one of

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Speaker 3: the four as the OJ trial. That's correct, Okay, tell

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Speaker 3: him what do you want, Alex?

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Speaker 2: That's number four? O four. There are three that are

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Speaker 2: maybe more famous.

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Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I'm gonna go more famous. My next pick

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Speaker 3: is I'm going to go with the Scopes monkey trial.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty famous. It's not here, but you know this

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Speaker 2: might be a case where you're right in there own.

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Speaker 3: Okay, number My next one is the Lindbergh kidnapping. No,

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Speaker 3: not on this.

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Speaker 2: List, but also very famous.

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Speaker 3: We'll see what you know. You must have some really

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Speaker 3: good ones on this list, then yes, Okay, So I

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Speaker 3: still have three to pick, and I'm running out of

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Speaker 3: joy at it. Two more shorts shots. Huh. How about

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Speaker 3: the killing of Abraham Lincoln? Is that?

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Speaker 2: Well, there wasn't a big trial, is it?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: No. Actually, what happened with that is they chased John

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Speaker 2: Wilkes Booth into a barn and burned the barn down.

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Speaker 3: And that's still there was a pretty summary disposition on that.

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Speaker 2: Much of a trial. I'm pretty proud that I knew

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Speaker 2: that though.

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Speaker 3: Well, that is pretty good. But I'm running one more,

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Speaker 3: one more, I'm running out. I'm running out of answers.

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Speaker 2: Here for I won't I won't torture you. Are you ready?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm ready.

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Speaker 2: The Trial of Socrates.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, maybe you were around there.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't. Just you have to de find famous.

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Speaker 3: That's clearly clearly.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's a trial that people have known about

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Speaker 2: for a thousand, couple thousand years.

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Speaker 3: Some people have known about it. My guess is most

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Speaker 3: have all right, well you can, but that's fair. I'm

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Speaker 3: not trying. I mean, it's it's on the list.

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Speaker 2: It's probably I wonder what the numbers are like Scopes

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Speaker 2: if you did a poll, how many people had heard

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Speaker 2: of Scopes versus Trial of Socrates. Socrates trials not really

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Speaker 2: on everybody's radar.

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Speaker 3: It's not okay, but you still have another one left.

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Speaker 2: I got more. You might agree with this one. The

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Speaker 2: Nuremberg trials.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, that's that. That's my bad and.

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Speaker 2: A little hint. I'll give you another shot. This is

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Speaker 2: a local one, local local historical and local tik talk. Okay,

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Speaker 2: the Salem Witch.

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Speaker 3: Oh jeez, right, you're right those that's not a bad list.

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Speaker 3: I disagree with Socrates because my guess is most people

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Speaker 3: would not have called through that one. But I don't

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Speaker 3: you know, and I think I would have put the

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Speaker 3: Scopes monkey trial on there ahead of Socrates.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're probably right if we did, if we did

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Speaker 2: some research.

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Speaker 3: That's a that's an interesting list, and that's fun exercise.

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Speaker 2: And now before we get into the cases, Okay, before

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Speaker 2: we get down to cases, I'm going to ask you

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Speaker 2: what it's like being Dean. I was thinking, as you

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Speaker 2: were coming in here, what's what's Dean Coyne's life like?

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Speaker 2: What does he do it? Is it a stressful job

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Speaker 2: or is it kind of you really have it down

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Speaker 2: so you can go golfing and stuff when you want golfing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, A, I don't golf, and no, that's not there's

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Speaker 3: not a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: Do you have it down so that it runs itself

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Speaker 2: or is it a struggle every day generally?

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Speaker 3: But as you asked me that question, I was thinking,

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Speaker 3: it's been a really fun and busy beginning of the semester.

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Speaker 3: We're four weeks in. Uh. But as I say that,

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Speaker 3: and I mean that, it's been fun, but it's been

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Speaker 3: h particularly difficult. There's been a lot of challenges to

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Speaker 3: try and get squared away. But at the same point,

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Speaker 3: even though, you know you're juggling a whole bunch of

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Speaker 3: things this as I think about this week, I met

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Speaker 3: with my trial advocacy students a couple of times this week.

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Speaker 3: They're getting ready for a big competition in Philadelphia the

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Speaker 3: first week of March. Another group of my child advocacy

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Speaker 3: students just go back from New York. They came in

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Speaker 3: second in the northeast region of the forty law schools

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Speaker 3: in this region North New England, New York, in New Jersey,

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Speaker 3: and two of our students won the Best Advocate awards.

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Speaker 3: So that's an incible. It's an incredible accomplishment. Now they

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Speaker 3: move on to Oregon. And then it was Tuesday I

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Speaker 3: went out to Fitchburg State University. We just entered into

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Speaker 3: a six year agreement with them so that a student

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Speaker 3: could complete a three year college degree and a three

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Speaker 3: year law school degree. So now make it six years

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Speaker 3: instead of seven. They cut a year's worth of tuition off,

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Speaker 3: they cut a year's worth of having to study instead

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Speaker 3: of being in the workforce. It's an incredible savings and

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Speaker 3: it was a great, great time to be out there.

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Speaker 3: The people serious about education, serious about making sure that

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Speaker 3: that all students get opportunities, especially those that come more

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Speaker 3: from my background, where you really you work to go

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Speaker 3: to put yourself through school. You you appreciated the opportunity,

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Speaker 3: but but you were working hard both at work as

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Speaker 3: well as at school. And that's what Fittsburgh State, I

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Speaker 3: think is very it's great reminiscent of that type of

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Speaker 3: experience as well. Program have a name, it's just it's

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Speaker 3: a three We call them the three plus three program.

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Speaker 2: Three plus three program. So if you're interested in something

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Speaker 2: like that, why don't you get in touch with the

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Speaker 2: Massachusetts School of Law, Right, that's what we're there for. Well, jeez,

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Speaker 2: we have a couple of folks that want to chat.

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Speaker 2: So it's by the way, six month, seven two, five,

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Speaker 2: four to ten thirty. First up as Sean and Ashby.

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Speaker 2: You're on WBZ Sean.

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Speaker 5: By Bradley, How are you great?

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Speaker 6: Good?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I heard your I just want to refresh the

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Speaker 5: audience's memory about the Abraham Lincoln trial. There was obviously

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Speaker 5: John Wilkes Boo if you were correct, and that he was.

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Speaker 5: He was in the barn and they burned the barn down.

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Speaker 5: But the coked spirit Is were put on trial and

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Speaker 5: five of them were hung. They were hanged.

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Speaker 3: What do you know about What do you know about

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Speaker 3: the trial?

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Speaker 2: Was it an extended thing? Was it just a slam down?

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Speaker 2: How did it go? No?

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Speaker 5: I just remember they just had a quick trial and

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Speaker 5: all the perpetrators were hanged.

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Speaker 3: Quick trial, little due process, and hang them at the

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Speaker 3: end of the day.

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Speaker 6: Okay, pretty much.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, so that's a good one. Yeah, just to

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Speaker 5: let you.

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Speaker 2: Know, well, thank you, I must say that hanging is

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Speaker 2: not my if I had to, if I got to choose,

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Speaker 2: if they said Bradley Jay, if you got to choose,

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Speaker 2: I'm not choosing hanging. I'm just telling you.

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Speaker 3: Well, but that I mean, I'm not sure there's a

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Speaker 3: good way to go.

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Speaker 2: It's better.

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Speaker 3: That's better than that electric chair. No, that's worth all

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Speaker 3: a lot of times.

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Speaker 2: Firing squad.

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Speaker 3: I could see that.

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Speaker 2: It's a little bit romantic.

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Speaker 3: That's your top choice for when you're My top choice

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Speaker 3: is just to go to sleep. If I can't do that,

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Speaker 3: that drug cocktail doesn't always work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why I think I would almost take

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Speaker 2: the firing squad over there. But I don't know if

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Speaker 2: this is something we want to stick with. We're gonna

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Speaker 2: go with christ and Chelmsford. Right after this break on WBZ.

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Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: We continue on that side with Dan Ray. I'm brad

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Speaker 2: to Jay and for Dan Tonight number six one seven

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Speaker 2: twere with Michael Coin, and we're going to be going

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Speaker 2: through the big trials to watch in twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: But of course you take precedence. I want to get

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Speaker 2: right to your calls. Christin Chelmsford. First, High, Chris, you're

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Speaker 2: on WBZ with Coin.

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Speaker 6: Thank you, mister jam about the Lindsay Bourdon case.

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Speaker 2: Oh, Lizzie Bordon.

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Speaker 3: Ye, but I don't know if that was it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: He's right there was a trial and that they found

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Speaker 3: her not guilty despite despite everyone knowing that poem and

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Speaker 3: assuming that she did it she was.

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Speaker 2: He's right, he might be right. There might be more

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Speaker 2: famous than socrates trial.

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Speaker 6: Well, you what I said, I wasn't true about when

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Speaker 6: I mentioned about Socrates. I thought that happened way before

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Speaker 6: we were all of us were born.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 6: I'm serious about that. I'm not making that as a

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Speaker 6: serious guilt, but I'm serious about that. Mister j or

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Speaker 6: whatever your name is, mister good.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you know we were just saying off here as I

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Speaker 3: was thinking about Bradley's first question is what do you

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Speaker 3: think the top four, the top four local trials would be.

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Speaker 3: And certainly Lizzie Borden has to be, It has to

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Speaker 3: be in that group.

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Speaker 2: And what would the local trials be? There would be

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Speaker 2: Karen Reid.

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Speaker 3: You gotta put Karen read You got to put her.

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Speaker 2: Then there was the nanny back in the night, the Nanny.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Louise, very.

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Speaker 6: Good, Louise Woodward.

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Speaker 3: Yep, that was well, that was a very big one too, Bradley,

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Speaker 3: go ahead.

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Speaker 6: One real first thing, my sister was Diane was one

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Speaker 6: night's night night Line on ABC and they were talking

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Speaker 6: about the Louise Woodward case. And there was a station

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Speaker 6: that had a program on called the Two Textitions and

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Speaker 6: they were talking about the Louise Woodward.

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Speaker 2: So it was pretty famous. Thank you, Chris. I got

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Speaker 2: to get some of the folks here. But that's a

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Speaker 2: great thanks Chris, appreciate it. Good call. And now it's

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Speaker 2: Linda and South Weymouth.

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Speaker 7: Hi, Hi, what about the It's not local?

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Speaker 4: Wow?

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Speaker 7: The Kennedy assassination and Nixon's trial.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy, Right, yeah, Kennedy one. I was thinking too, but

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Speaker 3: if you if as I remember, it was Oswald was

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Speaker 3: shot by Jack Ruby, and then Jack Ruby died of

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Speaker 3: cancer or some other medical issue. So so neither ended

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Speaker 3: up being tried because I said to that would be

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Speaker 3: obviously a huge one. But I don't think ultimately we

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Speaker 3: saw anyone actually tried for that.

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Speaker 2: What was the other one, Linda Nixon? Oh well, there

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Speaker 2: was no he just resigned.

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Speaker 6: Okay, I just remember it was big in the news.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was a big news event. Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Oh yeah, no doubt kind of what was going on

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Speaker 6: as thank you, my.

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Speaker 3: Pardon perfect, No, no, no thanks, Linda, okay.

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Speaker 2: And Matt in Florida. How what's it like down there?

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Speaker 2: What's what's the temperature? I've been thinking of going down there.

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Speaker 4: Well, I'm over on the left coast of it. It's

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Speaker 4: it's about like seventy six today. You know, it was

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Speaker 4: a little nippy. It was around thirty a couple of

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Speaker 4: weeks ago. But yeah, I wanted to ask Professor Coyne

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Speaker 4: about oh, I'm sorry, Dean Coin about oh about the

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Speaker 4: the Long Island murders. Netflix did a documentary on it,

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Speaker 4: Gone Girls, and basically they caught the guy. You know,

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Speaker 4: he has all is all this evidence of him. You know,

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Speaker 4: he has no books, he has everything that he planned,

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Speaker 4: he had records of everything in in a in a

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Speaker 4: matter of like judicial economy, like should these trials be

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Speaker 4: just kind of like okay, buddy, Like there's all this evidence,

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Speaker 4: Like why are we going to go through this whole trial?

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Speaker 4: I mean, obviously he has a right to a trial,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, I guess I'd just like to hear your

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Speaker 4: opinion on that and then just into you in those

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Speaker 4: trials where like these guys are blatantly guilty, like the attorneys,

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Speaker 4: I mean, they can't help the victims' families, but like

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Speaker 4: like do they have any kind of like moral obligation

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Speaker 4: to kind of you know, help the families in any

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Speaker 4: way to try to get information from their client? And

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Speaker 4: that's all I got, thank you.

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Speaker 2: No, that's two basic questions. Yeah, where was the first one?

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Speaker 2: He's asking if somebody that's obviously guilty, I.

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Speaker 3: Give them the due process, And that's you know, that's

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Speaker 3: the age old question, especially with respect to those serial

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Speaker 3: killers like that you talked about. I mean, you've got

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Speaker 3: a lot of evidence, Uh, is there some way to

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Speaker 3: to sort of shot circuit that whole thing. And in

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Speaker 3: civil cases, by the way, there is we have such

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Speaker 3: devices like some rejudgment where if the court doesn't believe

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Speaker 3: that the case is jury worthy, that there aren't facts

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Speaker 3: that really are contestable, then the court can deny you

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Speaker 3: a jury trial and issue judgment for one side or

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Speaker 3: the other. But incredibly, even if.

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Speaker 2: If you're charged with something, they can say, yeah, you're guilty.

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Speaker 3: Well not, it's not it's not a charge. In a

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Speaker 3: civil case, is that you are for your file to

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Speaker 3: complaint against the defendant, and the court if there aren't

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Speaker 3: facts to determine to see if it's a legit claim

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Speaker 3: to well not just to see if it's a legit claim.

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Speaker 3: It can work both ways. The court could say the

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Speaker 3: defense is insufficient, I find for the plaintiff things, and

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Speaker 3: so it works both ways. I always tell my students

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Speaker 3: jury's determined questions of fact, Judges determined questions of law.

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Speaker 3: So if there's no questions of fact to determine, the

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Speaker 3: court can decide who wins under the law. But that's

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Speaker 3: a civil case. In a criminal case, our system is

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Speaker 3: designed to give even the guilty really all the due

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Speaker 3: process that others would get.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a reason for that. You might be able

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Speaker 2: to show mitigating circumstances that would reduce your sentence, have

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Speaker 2: a defense in a rare case, an insanity of insanity defense,

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Speaker 2: or you might be able to create maybe there's three eyewitnesses,

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Speaker 2: and you might be able to to create doubt right

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Speaker 2: because eyewitnesses are notoriously wrong. They are correct, yep, And

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Speaker 2: you could piece their credibility.

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Speaker 3: Correct and maybe and we've seen this that there's police

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Speaker 3: misconduct such that some of the evidence was seized improperly

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Speaker 3: and the like, so that there's a number of factors

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Speaker 3: that go into it. And that's the problem that people

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Speaker 3: see with it is, you know, there are many cases

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Speaker 3: where the person clearly we all believe they did it,

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Speaker 3: but guilt is established under the law as to whether

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Speaker 3: you have satisfied that beyond a reasonable doubt standard, and

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Speaker 3: we give it to even the most horrible criminal among us.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a line from a man for all

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Speaker 3: seasons where you know they are arguing about it, and

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Speaker 3: it says, well, would you give the devil due process?

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Speaker 2: And as you got it right?

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Speaker 3: Well, the answer is yeah, because that's the law otherwise,

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Speaker 3: we're all judging what we think that behavior should have been,

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Speaker 3: and we all want the benefit of the law when

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Speaker 3: our time comes. And so that's why the process works

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Speaker 3: like this. But does it disadvantage the people who have

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Speaker 3: been harmed by that criminal behavior?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Do the lawyers who are representing the defendant have any

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Speaker 3: legal obligation to help those that have been harmed by

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Speaker 3: that person? The answer is no. His question is, well,

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Speaker 3: what about a moral obligation? Do you really have to

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Speaker 3: give them one hundred and ten percent? Could you do

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Speaker 3: a little less? And that's not within our code. Our

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Speaker 3: code is that we zealously represent our clients within the

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Speaker 3: bounds of the law. We don't do anything unethical or unprofessional.

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Speaker 3: But we give everyone that full bodied defense that we

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Speaker 3: would want if we were in that same chair.

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Speaker 2: Are the rich above the law? You know?

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Speaker 3: A student asked me at the openential student asked me

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Speaker 3: at the open house the other night, equal under the law?

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, that's what this next over

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Speaker 2: the Supreme Court is just not true anymore.

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Speaker 3: I don't know whether it was ever, but I mean,

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Speaker 3: if if we think, if people think that it's equal

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Speaker 3: justice under the law, realistically No, the rich do better.

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Speaker 3: They can hire more experts, more lawyers. The poor at

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Speaker 3: least have the benefit of a court appointed lawyer. But

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of people in divorce court and criminal

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Speaker 3: court who are trying to represent themselves. Are they in

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Speaker 3: the same boat as someone who's got vast amount of

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Speaker 3: resources and power. Unfortunately, the answer is no. It's an

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Speaker 3: aspiration equal justice under the law.

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Speaker 2: I ask you any of the any of if any

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Speaker 2: of the people on the Epstein list are to have

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Speaker 2: committed crimes, will they even be charged? And besides, I

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Speaker 2: do not believe i'steen first first go around, got a

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Speaker 2: really super sweet deal like a rich Guideal.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so it's just said, no, it's terrible. It's it's

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Speaker 3: hard to justify, it's hard to even hard to even

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Speaker 3: comprehend that in twenty twenty six we still have such

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Speaker 3: great disparity in our justice system.

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Speaker 2: But to answer that question that having the defense give

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Speaker 2: it they're all is the thing that separates us from

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Speaker 2: most many other countries. It's the thing that makes the

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Speaker 2: United States great. I think that's right. Okay, Wow, many

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Speaker 2: colors today. Next is Trey and Rhode Island. I love you,

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Speaker 2: I love Rhode Island. I'm going to be going down

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Speaker 2: to Providence more so I'm looking to hear from Trey.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next on WBZ.

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Speaker 4: With Dan.

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Speaker 1: On wb Boston's news Radio.

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Speaker 2: We continue on Dan Ray's Night Side with Michael Coin.

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Speaker 2: I'm rather Jay and for Dan tonight. Give us a

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Speaker 2: shout at six one, seven, two ten and the they

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Speaker 2: have a lot of callers. And it kind of sprung

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Speaker 2: from me off Handsley asking Dean Coin what he thought

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Speaker 2: were the most famous trials of all time. And it's

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Speaker 2: been quite fun. We'll go quickly to Trey in Rhode Island,

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Speaker 2: then we'll get to you time and conquered. Hi Tray, Hey, you're.

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Speaker 6: Right, good even good even gentlemen. Hey, I was so

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Speaker 6: I was thinking when you said the oh j Tyle,

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Speaker 6: I was taking.

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Speaker 2: I think all four trials are out of California. I

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Speaker 2: was taken. Besides, Odi probably have the Menendez brothers, Charles

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Speaker 2: Manson and then.

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Speaker 6: Maybe the uh the Rodney King tops.

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Speaker 3: Oh so that's those are really good ones. You know

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Speaker 3: Manson is a good one too. I mean, all of

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Speaker 3: these are good. But you're right then, all out of California,

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Speaker 3: those are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, those are really good ones. I hadn't even thought

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Speaker 2: of Manson.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not a bad one. And you know, there

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Speaker 3: must be four good ones from Florida now that you

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Speaker 3: figure that. If we're going to go to places where

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Speaker 3: you tend to get outrageous things, there must be a

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Speaker 3: number of different ones there. But that's a great list.

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Speaker 2: Perfect, Thank you. I appreciate that, right, yep, thank you.

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Speaker 2: And that was Tom and conquered Tom.

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Speaker 3: You're on bz Hi Bradley.

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Speaker 5: Just to get back to the Kennedy assassination, there was

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Speaker 5: a trial. There was the Jack Ruby trial, and before

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Speaker 5: he went to trial, he begged the government and the

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Speaker 5: Warrant commissioned to bring him to Washington nine on nine

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Speaker 5: separate occasions so he could tell his side of the story,

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Speaker 5: and he was denied each and every time. He did

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Speaker 5: go to trial in nineteen sixty four, who was found

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Speaker 5: guilty and he was given the death penalty. In nineteen

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Speaker 5: sixty seven, he suddenly and he suddenly developed cant and

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Speaker 5: died within weeks. There was a trial Jack Ruby sentenced

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Speaker 5: to sentence to death the shooting of Lee Javey Oswald,

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Speaker 5: in which he was ordered to do so. If we

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Speaker 5: knew back then what we know today about the Kennedy assassination.

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Speaker 5: There would have been plenty of trials and it would

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Speaker 5: have been up the trial of the century.

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Speaker 2: A sense that you feel there was a conspiracy somewhere

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Speaker 2: in there.

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Speaker 5: Oh, yes, there is, yes, there is, yes.

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Speaker 2: All right, and you feel it. Maybe they they some

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Speaker 2: entities wanted to keep Ruby quiet. Ruby.

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Speaker 5: Yes, the mob, the mob, the Javey Oswald was not involved.

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Speaker 5: He was a patsy.

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Speaker 6: He was set up.

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Speaker 5: And President Kennedy was shot by three different shooters from

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Speaker 5: three different angles. Okay, so but there was a trial

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Speaker 5: Jack Ruby, and he died before he went to trial.

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Speaker 3: Perfect, thank you, So we all Linda from South Weymouth

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Speaker 3: and apology would lend was dead on and can you

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Speaker 3: as our apologies? I hope.

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Speaker 2: So now it's Dennis and Lowell hy. It's great to

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Speaker 2: hear from all these towns. Hello, Lowell Hi, Dennis Hei.

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Speaker 6: Hello, how you doing, gentlemen?

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Speaker 3: Dennis?

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Speaker 6: I have a local case, the Saco ven Zetti.

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Speaker 3: Oh jeez, that's another good one, that's right.

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Speaker 6: Wow, Yeah, nineteen twenty one, and they were executed in

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Speaker 6: nineteen twenty seven. But basically from what I read, they

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Speaker 6: were convicted basically because there were two Italian anarchists.

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Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, and maybe not even anarchists, just

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Speaker 3: that they were Italian. It's one that it was really

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Speaker 3: another stain on our justice system. And here's a small

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Speaker 3: piece of trivia for you is they were tried in

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Speaker 3: the same courtroom as Karen Reid out in Denham.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okayisation Soaco a shoemaker. I'm reading this Obviously I

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Speaker 2: didn't know it. Ye Vanni fish peddler, which charged with

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Speaker 2: robbery and murder of a paymaster and security guard at

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Speaker 2: the Slater Moral shoe company back in.

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Speaker 6: That nineteen twenty Yeah, and actually another guy confessed. I

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Speaker 6: looked up the same stuff you did. A Celestino camp

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Speaker 6: announce the name. That's allowed. He confessed in nineteen twenty five,

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Speaker 6: but the Supreme Court refused to overrule the original conviction

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Speaker 6: and they were not granted a second trial.

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Speaker 3: Huh.

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Speaker 2: You know they got the electric chair, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's that's super cruel and unusual. It's horrific. You think

440
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:47,239
Speaker 2: they wouldn't need to go to those lengths to have

441
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 2: such a horrific thing. That's got to be simpler, more

442
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 2: humane ways. Well, Dennis, Yeah, is another wonderful call. Thank you.

443
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: Thanksis okay. So let's drill down on our trials to

444
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: watch in twenty twenty six to start local, and then

445
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,959
Speaker 2: we're going to go to Luigi Menngioni. But first Kelsey

446
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 2: finn Simmons Fitzsimmons has a hearing on Monday, if I'm

447
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 2: not mistaken, and what can you tell us about her?

448
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 3: It's a to me, it's a it's a very interesting case.

449
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: She is from my neck of the woods, up in

450
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 3: North Endover. She was a North Endover police officer uh

451
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 3: in recently had a child, uh and was seeking help

452
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 3: for some mental health issues as a result of that.

453
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 3: And she was still on maternity leave or on on

454
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 3: leave at that point, and she uh there was a

455
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 3: police came to serve her a restraining order obtained by

456
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 3: her boyfriend, and during that process she was shot in

457
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 3: the chest. Uh. And there's a dispute as to how

458
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 3: that came about. The police North the end of a

459
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 3: police officer said that they believed she was going to

460
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 3: use her gun on them. She says she was so

461
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 3: distraught she was going to use her gun on herself.

462
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 3: But nonetheless, this young police officer was shot in the

463
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 3: chess spent months in the hospital and then once really

464
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: once able to be arraigned and released from the hospital,

465
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 3: she was held on bail conditions that she couldn't reach.

466
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,719
Speaker 3: Now she's out on bail. But the bottom line as

467
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 3: you look at it is there's a bunch of things

468
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 3: going on there, But it really turns on the question

469
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 3: of postpartum depression and how we treat that and how

470
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 3: that'll be treated in this case, and whether in fact

471
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 3: she was a danger to herself to a greater extent

472
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: or a danger to the police officers who she worked

473
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 3: with who were serving that order. So it's as an

474
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 3: awful lot of moving parts with the case, and it

475
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 3: will be interesting as to how that case moves forward.

476
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 3: She's presently represented by Tim Bradle and math to Cockley

477
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 3: and so she's got strong representation and it'll be a

478
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 3: very interesting trial. But I think one of the things

479
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 3: that we see it in the Lindsay Clancy case as well,

480
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 3: is how we deal as a society with postpotum depression

481
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 3: and whether post and postpottum psychosis and whether that will

482
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,119
Speaker 3: be a forefront of those cases, which I think it

483
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 3: will be, And so then it makes it interesting to

484
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 3: both select a jury and to be able to have

485
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 3: that case heard such that you have some level of

486
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 3: comfort in the result.

487
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 2: You know.

488
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 3: I was talking to my friend, Professor Sullivan before I

489
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 3: left the law school, and I said, I'm sure we're

490
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 3: going to get into this a little bit. She said, well,

491
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: make sure you tell them. Remind them about Brooks Shield's

492
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 3: book where she talks about the horrible postpotum depression she

493
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 3: had and its effect that she thought about even driving

494
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: her and her kids into the to the water. I mean,

495
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 3: I think it's very real, uh, And I think we

496
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 3: don't know enough about it or likely deal with it

497
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 3: well enough. So I think this will be the forefront,

498
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 3: at least in a portion of these these two major

499
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 3: trials in Massachusetts this year.

500
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 2: A little bit of interesting facts, A couple of interesting

501
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: facts we got in the case, according to child ten Boston,

502
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 2: because that's the one that popped up.

503
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 3: The best news station in New England.

504
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 2: Go ahead, good so as I understand that the police

505
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: were there to serve a restraining order informing her that

506
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 2: the fiance was attaining court ordered custody to their son.

507
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: And even kind of more interesting in a drilled down way,

508
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 2: freedom personal recognizance September eight, with several conditions, including court

509
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: ordered alcohol testing. Taken back into custody just days later,

510
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 2: after Lauris had been in an emergency motion asking the

511
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 2: court to modify the terms and conditions of her pre release.

512
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: The SCRAM system that she was ordered to use for

513
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 2: alcohol testing required to blow intensely in the tube several times.

514
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,439
Speaker 2: But when she did that, it really hurt her injury

515
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 2: where she'd been shot so right.

516
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: She had been shot in the chest, So blowing into

517
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: this breath machine was painful and potentially damaging, as she saw.

518
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 2: It, and so because of that, they.

519
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 3: They took her bail off the table and she was

520
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 3: jailed because she couldn't comply with the conditions of bail,

521
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 3: and she was held for at least a couple of months,

522
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 3: maybe more while the lawyers fought that and asked the

523
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 3: Supreme Court to take a further examination of it, because

524
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 3: she shouldn't, you know. Their argument was, she shouldn't have

525
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 3: to injure herself permanently to comply with the conditions reasonable.

526
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 3: It did seem reasonable, except the Court was concerned and

527
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 3: fairness to the court. The Court was concerned that the

528
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 3: use of drug, alcohol or other drugs would potentially impact

529
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,640
Speaker 3: her or those around her. And specifically, there's a concern

530
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 3: about danger to the recently born child.

531
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: Okay, it was that child, the child that the order to.

532
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: There was an emergency emergency restraining order with custody to

533
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: the fiance. I believe at the time, Uh, for that

534
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: new baby, for that new baby that's there, her only child,

535
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 3: is I understand?

536
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 2: And what's the charge?

537
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: The charges? Uh, it's all mattery with a dangerous weapon.

538
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 3: The north end of a police is saying that she

539
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: pointed the gun at them. She's saying, I point I

540
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 3: took the gun to point it at myself. Another problem here,

541
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 3: and it's a town I lived in for many years.

542
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,719
Speaker 3: Why aren't their body cameras because then we would have

543
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 3: at least be able to look at this and understand

544
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 3: to a much greater extent what actually happened, and we

545
00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: don't have them.

546
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: So you said the Sultan battery for pointing the weapon.

547
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,479
Speaker 3: That pointing the weapon. Yeah, it's a pointing the loaded weapon.

548
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 3: Are they I believe it was a loaded weapon at

549
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 3: the time. Pointing a loaded weapon at another And the

550
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 3: concern is they're in close range that yes, that they

551
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: believe that they shet they were, They were in essence

552
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: facing a life or death situation, and that's why the

553
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: gun around. Well, I get it exactly. I can understand.

554
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 3: That's why it's unfortunately there are two sides to it

555
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 3: that are very hotly contested, and it's another argument for

556
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 3: bodycams would be able to have resolved this forest and

557
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: North Andover is a community that has should has ample

558
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 3: resources such that those offices should have body cameras at

559
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: this point to avoid situations like this where we could

560
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: get to the facts much cleaner.

561
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna take Rick and Bill ricker than a

562
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 2: break and.

563
00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 8: Then soon love Hi, Rick, Hey, Bradley and Tourney Dean

564
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 8: your first name, Mike. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mike

565
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 8: how I okay, thanks thanks for doing this program. Brother,

566
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 8: It's always great to have you. You do great programming

567
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 8: when when you're on. Absolutely, I was just gonna I

568
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 8: was just gonna throw Charles toward but I don't know,

569
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 8: I don't know the ins and outs of the case. Yeah, well,

570
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 8: I think it was more than that, because I mean

571
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 8: I think that changed a lot of things. I mean,

572
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 8: if they ever suspected the the spouse for murder.

573
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 2: They always first well yeah.

574
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 8: Sure, sure, but but they forgot well the point it's just.

575
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: A real bad idea because you're not going to get

576
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: away with it because they, like the numbers, say that

577
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: most of the time is the spouse?

578
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 6: Right?

579
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, sure, but Brett.

580
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 8: But but guys, don't you think that they kind of

581
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 8: did the general public kind of forgot when it came

582
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 8: to Charles Stewart.

583
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, even well.

584
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: That said a lot. That said a lot about us,

585
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 3: right because he pointed his finger at a whole community

586
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 3: and we bought into that hook line and sinker instead

587
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 3: of actually saying, hey, as you point out, it's always

588
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: the spouse, isn't it?

589
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: Refresh my memory on this? Was there a trial because

590
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: I know he just he allegedly jumped off the bridge.

591
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is it. There is a great legal case

592
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 3: that comes of it. But it's not a trial. Uh,

593
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: he did jump off the Mystic River bridge and died.

594
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 3: When you say allegedly, I mean I think that's there's

595
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 3: no I'm.

596
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: I'm sure he died, But I thought there was some

597
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: question onto how he ended up going off the bridge.

598
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: I don't know.

599
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 3: Oh well, let me tell you what the great legal

600
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 3: principle and the case that came from it. Okay, it's

601
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: because they tried to make his attorney, post death explain

602
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: what he had told him with respect to whether he

603
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 3: had killed his wife or not. And this the court

604
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 3: ruled that the attorney client privilege survives death, So even

605
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 3: in death, they could not get the attorney to tell

606
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 3: us what child Stewart had said with respect to killing

607
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 3: his wife.

608
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 2: And that is such a gritty, gritty Boston story.

609
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: Oh it is.

610
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 8: Yeah, hey, and did the other one quickly?

611
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 3: Guys.

612
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 8: I'll just throw it your way and I'll let you go. Miranda.

613
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 8: Now again, I didn't know there was a child, Stuart.

614
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:24,719
Speaker 6: I don't know.

615
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 8: There must have been a There was a Miranda trial

616
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 8: because it changed everything that would have our rights read

617
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 8: to us because of this trial, right Miranda versus what

618
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 8: was it?

619
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 6: A state?

620
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: I will talk about that right after this break because

621
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: I'm really round all right, Good job, Rick, Thank yous.

622
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: W b Z You're on Night Side with Dan Ray

623
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: on WBZ Boston's n Radio.

624
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 2: We continue with Dean Coin off the Massachusetts School of Law.

625
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: Dean Coin meaning the dean of the school. His name

626
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 2: is Michael I want to be clear about all that

627
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: to save confusion. We're going through cases to watch in

628
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six. We just talked about Kelsey Fin Simmons,

629
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: and we're going to get to Luigi Luisi Mangioni. The

630
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 2: first iss Sue and Lowell.

631
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 3: Hello, Sue, Hi?

632
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 7: How are you? There are some in Lowell? And do

633
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 7: you remember this? The Mahoney family fifty years ago was

634
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 7: shot by was shot and killed by three men and

635
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 7: one man got witnessed protection because he rapped those the

636
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 7: other two. The other one was George Edgeley fifty fifty

637
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 7: five years ago, and his lawyer was O. J. Simpson's lawyer,

638
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 7: and he and that person I can't remember his name,

639
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 7: got his start with it and they couldn't find the heads,

640
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 7: so he wasn't convicted. Not nice.

641
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 3: I think it was a flee Bailey who represented one

642
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: of the best greatest cri old defense lawyers, uh, certainly

643
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 3: of the sixties and seventies.

644
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 2: Who's the Bailey of now? Alan Jackson?

645
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 3: I think at least the one the most famous and

646
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 3: he is very good, is probably Alan Jackson.

647
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 2: They're very good.

648
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 3: There are a lot of other lawyers that are sort

649
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 3: of below the radar and they want to be that way,

650
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 3: and they're very highly skilled. But I think the most

651
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 3: high profile lawyer right now would would be Alan Jackson.

652
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 3: He's he's terrifically talented lawyer. You know, he has his

653
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 3: distractors as well. For for.

654
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: We're talking about that. We're actually going to address Alan

655
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: Jackson later when it comes to another the Nick Ryner case, okay,

656
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: which we'll get to later.

657
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 5: Anything else, that's it, thank you, thank so.

658
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: So the Mahoney's route was that? And do you know

659
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:53,240
Speaker 2: anything about it? Okay?

660
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 3: It doesn't really ring a bell. The edgey one with

661
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 3: Flee Bailey that I do remember fle Bailey actually, I

662
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: remember seeing him try a number of different cases. I

663
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: think a Flee Bailey and his partner were Al Johnson.

664
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 3: Were also in the Patty Hurst case, oh wow, which

665
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 3: we didn't put on the list either, which was an

666
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 3: interesting case. But Patty Hurston Manson definitely belongs on that list.

667
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 3: I think what about the Chicago seven, by the way, right,

668
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: that's true, we didn't talk about that one either.

669
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by the whole Manson thing I watched. I

670
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: can't get enough of it. I read the Vincent Will

671
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: Josi book, and it was a good book. Was that

672
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 2: was that called Helter Skelter?

673
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 3: What was it? I think, No, I don't think.

674
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: I'm not sure what He was kind of self serving

675
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 2: in braggadocious.

676
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 3: He's a lawyer after all.

677
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 2: But it was a good book. All right. Now, let's

678
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: get into some of the other trials. I guess we

679
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 2: can start out. We have a little time to dig into.

680
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: Luigi Mangioni and these accused of shooting a man named

681
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: Thompson on a New York City street, an executive, an

682
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: insurance executive, rested five days later facing charges in New

683
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 2: York and Pennsylvania federal charges. Where can you fill in there?

684
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 3: Well, I think the angle I think in this case

685
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: that to me is fascinating is now he in fact

686
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: is charged with premeditated murder. If anyone has seen the video,

687
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 3: the United Healthcare president was killed on the streets of

688
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: New York, and it seemed like he stalked him and

689
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: found where he was and had to plot and planet

690
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: and then shoot shot him from relatively close range. That

691
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 3: in part, it appears that it was fueled by rage

692
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 3: against the insurance carrier or insurance carriers who were denying

693
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 3: him treatment. And so that's to me where the fascinating

694
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 3: part of it comes from, because based on that, a

695
00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 3: lot of people had really rallied to his cause. You know,

696
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 3: the glorification of a cold blooded killer, to me is problematic,

697
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 3: even though at the core I can't understand someone is

698
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: denied essential medical care for them their child, to their mom,

699
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 3: their dad, acting in such a way that they believe

700
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 3: they're not just helping themselves, but they're helping all of

701
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,959
Speaker 3: us by undertaking such a horrible thing. And I think

702
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: that that's what's likely to play out here, is that

703
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:39,320
Speaker 3: his defense will try to argue what we call jury nullification.

704
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: And we're going to explain that in detail after the news,

705
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 2: and then we're going to talk to Rita in Boston

706
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 2: and Edward in Well, We'll talked to Edward. I don't

707
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 2: know where he's from. And that's all coming up here

708
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 2: on WBZ while we're going to do another hour with

709
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: Dean Michael Coin, who is the dean of the Massachusetts

710
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 2: School of Law. I have you ever thought about being

711
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 2: a lawyer. You might want to You might want to

712
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 2: check in with them and see you know where you're

713
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: at and if it's something that could happen because chances

714
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: are in a lot of cases it could. If you

715
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 2: really want it's WBZ