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Speaker 1: Station ESPN fifteen thirty twenty five from five o'clock. This

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Speaker 1: is ESPN fifteen thirty Moegger. We'll do sports headlines, of

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Speaker 1: which there aren't many here in just a bit. On Tuesdays,

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Speaker 1: we talk about the sports and the law with our

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Speaker 1: friend Stewart W. Penrose from Manilo Lawgroup. You can learn

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Speaker 1: more at manilolawgroup dot com. Last week we spend a

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Speaker 1: little bit of time on this the big college basketball

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Speaker 1: point shaving scandal, which has enveloped a lot of programs

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Speaker 1: at the low major and mid major level. It's pretty widespread,

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Speaker 1: the evidence seems to be pretty damning for everybody involved,

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Speaker 1: and so I wanted to ask questions of our legal expert.

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Speaker 1: Stewart is with us. It's good to have you as always, sir.

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Speaker 1: How are you doing great?

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Speaker 2: Most thanks for having.

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Speaker 1: Me ie O hands here. Yeah, we do, we do.

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Speaker 1: And so whenever I see federal indictment and I'm painting

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Speaker 1: with a very broad brush here, but whenever I see

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Speaker 1: federal and I think, uh, oh, ironclad case. One that's

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Speaker 1: hard to get out of. Is that assumption a fair

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Speaker 1: one that if I see federal indictment, you know what

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Speaker 1: the Feds don't lose, So the people who have been

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Speaker 1: indicted here are screwed. Is that a fair assumption, It's.

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Speaker 2: It's not a dishonest assumption. The Seds don't bring weak cases,

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Speaker 2: but no kings is an automatic lock. I mean mo

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Speaker 2: generally speaking, when when when federal prosecutors final final charges

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Speaker 2: for uh, you know, wire fraud is typically after months

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Speaker 2: and sometimes years of investigations. You know, by the time

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Speaker 2: these the rest happen, they typically have one or more

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Speaker 2: cooperating witnesses, wire tasks, text messages, UH, there could be

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Speaker 2: betting records, bank transfers, So I mean their their batting

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Speaker 2: average is extremely high, and they're not going to go

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Speaker 2: in blindly, and it's with a lot of investigation and

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Speaker 2: usually a lot of concrete evidence uh before they bring

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Speaker 2: down these charges.

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Speaker 1: Can cases like this even be prosecuted at the state

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Speaker 1: and local level.

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Speaker 2: State ten states prosecute sports biber bribery, gaming related fraud, conspiracy.

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Speaker 2: But the set step in when it's when best cross

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Speaker 2: state lines online sportsbooks are involved. I mean mode typically speaking,

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Speaker 2: if there are phones, text messages, apps, banking systems, those

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Speaker 2: tend to cross state lines. And you know, once you

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Speaker 2: cross state lines, it becomes a federal issue, and for prosecution,

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Speaker 2: you know, federal course preferred. There's broader jurisdiction, The penalties

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Speaker 2: are much harsher as well too, and they have more

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Speaker 2: resources and more investigative tools.

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Speaker 1: Uh, walk me through the specific charges involved here and

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Speaker 1: what what the people involved are potentially looking at in

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Speaker 1: terms of punishment.

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Speaker 2: Sure, well, first and foremost, I mean the court charge

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Speaker 2: here is wire fraud. And you know you might be asking,

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Speaker 2: you know, I hear the term all the time. You

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Speaker 2: know what's wire fraud? You know, essentially three elements. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's got to be a scheme to defraud, intend, to

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Speaker 2: decize and the use of interstate wires, whether those be

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Speaker 2: you know, phone calls, texts, apps, internet basically if you

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Speaker 2: use the phone, uh text or betting that to you know,

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Speaker 2: to rig outcomes or manipulating betting betting lines, that's wire fraud.

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Speaker 2: And that's and those are the accusations here. You know,

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Speaker 2: there are the charges conspiracy, money laundering, bribery, illegal gambling.

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Speaker 2: But you know, the wire fraud is the is the

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Speaker 2: main crust of it here.

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Speaker 1: So you have a lot of folks involved here. You

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Speaker 1: have a lot of current and former men's college basketball players.

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Speaker 1: What happens if the people name decide to cooperate with

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Speaker 1: the prosecution.

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Speaker 2: Well, the I'm sure most of the athletes will a

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Speaker 2: lot of times in the sex the cases MO when

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Speaker 2: there's big schemes, it's kind of a rate to the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor's office. Let's be honest here. The players are the

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Speaker 2: are the ponds and the system. They're the small you know,

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Speaker 2: they're the small people at the bottom of the totem pole.

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Speaker 2: It is certainly in their best interest to cooperate and

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Speaker 2: give information.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: If you cooperate, there can be reduced charges, drop charges,

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Speaker 2: There could be significant reductions in your sentence, sometimes no

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Speaker 2: jail time at all, particularly for these you know, for

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Speaker 2: these players, they're low level pawns, you know. The government,

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Speaker 2: you know, well, they they're going to get everybody. They

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Speaker 2: want to get the people at the top, you know,

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Speaker 2: first and foremost, those are the big fish at the

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Speaker 2: end of the day. So, uh, certainly folks are going

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Speaker 2: to want to cooperate and testify. And the sooner they

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Speaker 2: do and the more information they provide, uh, the lighter

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Speaker 2: that things are going to go for them.

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Speaker 1: This is maybe a dumb question, will not be the

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Speaker 1: first one or a last one that I've asked. But

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Speaker 1: you you know, you can you can find evidence that

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Speaker 1: a that a college basketball player agreed to shave points

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Speaker 1: right if they're texting, you know, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: But can you actually prove that a player went through

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Speaker 1: Can you and a court of law prove that a

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Speaker 1: player wasn't trying his best to help his team win?

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Speaker 2: Well, they're going to use messages that the players have

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Speaker 2: sent to you know that the folks that they were

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Speaker 2: working with, and you know, my understanding from some of

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Speaker 2: the articles and some of the news that broke out

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Speaker 2: is you know that they talked to the conspirators and

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Speaker 2: the folks that were paying them. Hey, I tried doing this,

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Speaker 2: I tried doing that, And certainly their words can be

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Speaker 2: used against them. And I'm sure that there are ways,

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Speaker 2: you know, to try and improve that in court. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure that there are ways by you know, looking at

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Speaker 2: film and doing things besides just the messages. But when

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Speaker 2: you have messages and you have texts and emails that

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Speaker 2: are pretty damning, you know, it's it's not good for

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Speaker 2: the player.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So the basketball players themselves, if convicted, what sort

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Speaker 1: of punishment, what kind of time are they maybe looking at.

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Speaker 2: Technically speaking, why or frog carries up the twenty years

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Speaker 2: in prison? I mean that said, No, I mean no

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Speaker 2: judge is going to look to throw a you know,

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Speaker 2: a pawn in this system, a college athlete in prison

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Speaker 2: for twenty years over this could prison time being the table,

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Speaker 2: Yes it can, but more than likely the you know,

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Speaker 2: these young kids, these young athletes are going to work

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Speaker 2: with the prosecution, work with the investigators with the aid

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Speaker 2: of their attorney, to give information and cut deals that

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Speaker 2: you know very well could keep them out of prison.

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Speaker 1: So you obviously have a lot of folks who are

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Speaker 1: worried that this, with the proliferation of legal gambling, that

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Speaker 1: this is going to become kind of a common thing

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Speaker 1: that we have to deal with these stories all the time.

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Speaker 1: So could a judge, for instance, decide, you know what,

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Speaker 1: because I don't want there to be more cases like this,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make an example of the athletes involved

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Speaker 1: here and have found guilty, punish them, for lack of

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Speaker 1: a better term, excessively in an effort to make an

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Speaker 1: example out of them.

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Speaker 2: You could you could always have a judge go road

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Speaker 2: that said, there still are sent unseen guidelines. Most of

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Speaker 2: these players probably have little to know criminal records whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: There are still guidelines that you have. Whereas if you

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Speaker 2: have somebody in front of you with a long criminal

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Speaker 2: record that you know has more contact with the cord

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Speaker 2: and you know it's higher risk, you know that person

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Speaker 2: is likely to receive a longer sentence. It's probably unlikely

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Speaker 2: a judge goes rogue on a young college athlete here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, makes sense. Stuart W. Penrose, Attorney, Manila Lawgroup dot com.

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Speaker 1: I have a feeling there's going to be more cases

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Speaker 1: like this, and so it's going to be good to

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Speaker 1: have you, as we say in the legal profession, as

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Speaker 1: you say in the legal profession on retainer. Awesome stuff

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Speaker 1: as always, Man, thanks so much, Thank you, Bo. That's

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Speaker 1: our guy, Stuart W. Penrose. You can learn more about

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Speaker 1: the Manila Law Group at Manila Lawgroup dot com. It's

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Speaker 1: eighteen away from five o'clock. Sports headlines involved basically this, uh.

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Speaker 1: There's a couple of college basketball games in the area. Tonight,

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Speaker 1: Miami is on the road against ken State. The RedHawks

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Speaker 1: looking for a twentieth consecutive victory after their overtime win

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Speaker 1: thrilling overtime win over Buffalo on Saturday. That game will

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Speaker 1: tip off to Ohio at seven o'clock tonight. Meanwhile, college

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Speaker 1: basketball in the area, Ohio State takes on Minnesota. Indiana's

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Speaker 1: on the road against Michigan Hockey tonight. The Blue Jackets

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Speaker 1: looked for a fifth consecutive victory, skating with and against Ottawa.

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Speaker 1: There you go, seventeen away from five o'clock five one, three, seven,

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Speaker 1: four nine. Fifteen thirty is our phone number. We will

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Speaker 1: grab a couple of phone calls when we come back.

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Speaker 1: On ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati Sports station