1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,559 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z, 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: Boston's news radio. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan Watkins. 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 3: We're going to change topics and happy to introduce Attorney 5 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 3: Veronica White to my audience. Attorney White represents a man 6 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 3: by the name of James Rudwell. She's his attorney. He 7 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 3: has been in prison for forty five years. He's seventy 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 3: one years of age. Who you can do the math. 9 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 3: I guess he was convicted at the age of twenty six, 10 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,559 Speaker 3: so has spent well two thirds of his life. I 11 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 3: guess it's the only way to describe it for a 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: crime that he insists he did not commit. He was 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 3: convicted for the murder of the son of a local 14 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 3: police captain. The victim's name was Louis Rose Junior. Someone 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 3: killed him in nineteen seventy eight. But Veronica White, welcome 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 3: to Knight's side. I don't want to put it, I 17 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 3: don't want to put words in your mouth, but you 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 3: are seeking clemency for James Rodwell. But I also sense 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 3: from our conversations today that you believe you're seeking clemency 20 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 3: for an innocent man. 21 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 4: That's correct, okay, And. 22 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 3: I think that's important to just explain that conversation. As attorneys, 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: all of us know what the standard of proof is 24 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 3: to convict someone of a crime such as murder in 25 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 3: the first degree, all the elements of the crime beyond 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 3: a reasonable doubt. But as I learned many years ago 27 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 3: while pursuing justice for Joe Slovadi and three others, there's 28 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 3: no similar legal standard to prove someone is innocent. But 29 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 3: you know, once they're convicted, explain to the audience the 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: frustration of that you know this case certainly better than 31 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 3: I do, and you know it much better than most 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: people in our audience. So we're going to talk about it. 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: But I know the feeling of frustration when you know 34 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 3: that someone is incarcerated and you believe that that person 35 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 3: has been wrongfully incarcerated. It weighs heavily on. 36 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: An attorney, It short does. 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 4: But in mister Rodwells case, the chips were really stacked 38 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 4: against him in every way possible, and he never got 39 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 4: a fair shape. I got into this about fifteen years ago, 40 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 4: and I'll never stop fighting for him until he's believed. 41 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 3: So the simple story is he was convicted in a 42 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 3: trial I think it was. 43 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: In it was it nineteen eighty one. 44 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 4: He was convicted in November end of November of nineteen 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 4: eighty one, only six months after he was taken into 46 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 4: custody for the murder of Lewis Rose, which is extremely 47 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 4: quick for a murder case. 48 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, very well, very very quick. I read a long 49 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 3: piece that investigative reporter Casey Sherman, who was a colleague 50 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 3: of minut Channel four. He did not work on the 51 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 3: Salvadi case, the Savanna Lamoni case with me, but he 52 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 3: certainly knows what that case was all about. And I 53 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 3: found his article from last September to be very compelling. 54 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: I know that he has quite a good sense of justice. 55 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 3: And your client, mister Rodwell, was convicted essentially on the 56 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: words of a guy who was an informant who made 57 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 3: his career living as an informant. He got a lot 58 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 3: of other people in trouble for in some cases crimes 59 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 3: that he either knew about or himself had participated in. 60 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 3: And I think I read a statistic that he's been 61 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: convicted for the crimes that he was involved in, he 62 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: would have spent like one hundred and eight years in prison, 63 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 3: but he's only spent about eight years in prison. 64 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 4: The informant, and you're talking about David Nagel. 65 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 2: Well, I think there's two of them. 66 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 3: There's a guy named Frankie Holmes, and that's right, and 67 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 3: Nagel correct corroborated Holmes's story. But as I understand that 68 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: Holmes was the guy that really, you know, through an 69 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 3: albatross around the neck of your client, wasn't your client 70 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 3: at the time. He was defended by a very competent attorney, 71 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 3: Bill Sintolo back in nineteen eighty one. 72 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 4: I will tell you that Francis Holmes was jammed up 73 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 4: in an interstate hijacking case and he had a kid 74 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 4: on the way and he needed some collateral. Jimmy Rodwell 75 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 4: was his collateral. He has admitted to witness whose name 76 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 4: I cannot disclose. 77 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 5: That. 78 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 4: Essentially he set up an Italian for a crime that 79 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 4: he didn't commit, an Italian he didn't like. And there 80 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 4: are several incentives that he had, and one of them 81 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 4: was to lower his federal sentence. The other was to 82 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 4: get out on parole. That started under the Massachusetts statute, 83 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 4: you cannot convict an individual who is a a co conspirator, 84 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 4: and in this case, he was a unindicted co conspirator. 85 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 4: So that's where David Nagel came in. 86 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: Okay and explain to us what Nagel basically corroborated what 87 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: Holmes had. 88 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 6: Testified to right. 89 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 4: And so at the time that James Rodwell was arrested, 90 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 4: and that was May twenty second of nineteen ten eighty one, 91 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 4: David Nagel was already in prison, and he was in prison, 92 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 4: and he was facing about six armed robberies and one kidnapping. 93 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 4: What was unbeknownst to James Brockwell is that David Nagel 94 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 4: was a paid and registered DEA informant and had been 95 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 4: given over forty payments by the DEA at this time. 96 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 4: I can now disclose this because this was made a 97 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 4: public record at during Jimmy's seventh motion for new trial. 98 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: One of the things that we need to put out 99 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: on the table here is that your client and he 100 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 3: was not your client at the time of trial. I 101 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 3: think that's important to mention. You've been working for his 102 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 3: release for fifteen years. 103 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: He had some priors. 104 00:06:54,279 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 3: Which were low level crimes, and he does not deny 105 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 3: the low level crimes. There was some larceny, a drug 106 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: possession counterfeit case, nothing to the extent for which he 107 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: was convicted, which was the cold blooded murder of Lewis 108 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 3: Rose Junior. 109 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 4: Nothing. 110 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: No one is saying that. 111 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, no one is saying that your client, mister Rodwell, 112 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 3: was going to be elevated to the College of Cardinals 113 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: or anything like that. We're just being we like, I 114 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: think it's important to get it out there and you tell, 115 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: we tell the whole story. 116 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you this. I've known Jimmy Rodwell 117 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: for fifteen years and he's a man of integrity. He's 118 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 4: a person that has a immense amount of compassion for 119 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 4: human beings. He is a highly intelligent individual. His family 120 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 4: is incredibly of and also highly intelligent. Jim Jimmy Rodwell. 121 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 4: It's also half Italian. No, he's seventy five percent Italian 122 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 4: and twenty five percent Irish. I'm half Italian have Irish. 123 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 4: But we've gotten along very very well for all these years. 124 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 4: I raised my two kids representing mister Rodwell. They were 125 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 4: Irish twins. 126 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 2: We know what that means. 127 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 3: We would say in Latin they were born almost seriatu, 128 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 3: meaning nine months after me whatever, ten months or whatever. 129 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 6: So you were months apart. 130 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, we'll be precise. 131 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 4: So and I kept my law from going the whole time. 132 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 3: As well as and so the only break that he 133 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 3: has had, I think, or at least it seemed to me, 134 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 3: is that Governor Healy has has changed the rules in 135 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: terms of seeking clemency. If you were going to try 136 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 3: to seek clemency, and basically you had to you had 137 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 3: to admit that you had done the crime. Mister Rodwell 138 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 3: under no circumstances would admit to it did the crime 139 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 3: because he did not do the crime is what your 140 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 3: representation is. But for some reason not the governor changed 141 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: that standard. So he has he's been granted a hearing 142 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: by the Parole Board, which is granted last least April, 143 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 3: and the rules of the road were that he should 144 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 3: have had a hearing in front of the Parle Board 145 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 3: within six months. Six months have long since passed. 146 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 4: They have absolutely, it's been now thirteen months. Albeit you know, 147 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 4: I have admitted exhibits over eight thousand pages, and there's 148 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 4: a whole sealed component and there's a public component. There's 149 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 4: information that's impounded. There's information that I can't talk about 150 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,400 Speaker 4: obviously on the radio because it's under steal, and that 151 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:20,839 Speaker 4: I will say that you know, this information does also 152 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 4: represent information that one day we'll make it inside of 153 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 4: a courtroom, inside of a public courtroom. 154 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: Okay, let me do this. 155 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 3: I want to take a break, and I want to 156 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 3: explain to the audience. I think we've tried to establish 157 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 3: that this is an individual the conviction of home is. 158 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: Certainly questionable at a minimum. 159 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 3: And his road protestations and representations is something that all 160 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 3: of us can believe, but we should everyone should at 161 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: least take them very seriously. This is not a someone 162 00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 3: who's trying to con the system. He's had representation, your 163 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 3: resentation fifteen years. You've done a great job. 164 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: Now. 165 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 3: I mean that because I know a little bit of 166 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 3: what it's like to stick with a story, and a 167 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 3: lot of people don't understand that the system does make mistakes. 168 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 3: So now the parole board, this decides, the governor says 169 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 3: that he can see clemency, and they grant him a hearing. 170 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 3: And it has all it should have been happened. It 171 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: should have happened in October when the baseball season was ending. 172 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 3: Spring training has begun, son entire long winter has passed. 173 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 3: The point we're going to try to make tonight is 174 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 3: let's get him his hearing. And hopefully the pile of evidence, 175 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 3: the massive evidence that you have, you know, gathered, collated 176 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 3: and presented to the Pole Parole Board, will result in 177 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: the pro board granting him clemency. I want to go 178 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 3: through that procedurally. I also want to invite people to 179 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 3: call in. There's probably not a lot of people in 180 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 3: the audience who are familiar with this case, but I 181 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 3: would not take the case on if I was not 182 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: convinced of the article that Casey Sherman wrote, which I 183 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 3: read a few months ago and reread again today, and 184 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 3: also our conversations today, if people would like to join us. 185 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 3: The fact of the matter is the system sometimes does 186 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 3: make mistakes. Sometimes those mistakes are negligence. Sometimes those mistakes 187 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: are more intentional. This sounds to me that it was 188 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: not negligence. 189 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 4: From whatever, which makes it all the more. On the radio, 190 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 4: there was state misconduct, federal misconduct, and judicial misconduct, and 191 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 4: I have proof of all of those. 192 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 3: Those are strong allegations and we can talk about those. 193 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: But I'll also invite callers if they'd like to join 194 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: the conversation and offer of support or simply ask a question. 195 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 3: Six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, thirty six one seven, nine, three, one, 196 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: ten thirty. My name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside. 197 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: My guest is attorney Veronica White. She's a lawyer for 198 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: James Rodwell. Mister Rodwell has been in prison now for 199 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 3: forty five years, two thirds of his life, for murder 200 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: that he insists he did not commit. He has been 201 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 3: granted a clemency hearing, but that clemency hearing should have 202 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 3: been conducted before well by October. And justice delayed is 203 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 3: justice denied. And that's what we're talking about tonight. Feel 204 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: free to join the conversation, ask a question, or continue 205 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 3: to listen. I think these stories are just incredibly, incredibly important. 206 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 3: I hope you do as well. We'll be back on 207 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: Nightside right after this. You're on night Side with Dan 208 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 3: Ray on w b Z, Boston's news radio. My guest 209 00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 3: is attorney Veronica White. She's been an attorney for two decades, 210 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 3: twenty eight years. Okay, that's okay. You've got to be 211 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: careful here with agism and all of that. But she 212 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: is a very competent attorney and she has represented James 213 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: Rodwell now for half of her career, and he has 214 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 3: spent two thirds of his life in prison for crime 215 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 3: that he insists he did not commit, and Attorney White 216 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 3: has done Yeoman's work to produce a case and documentation 217 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 3: to prove his claim of innocence. So now, procedurally, well, 218 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: my audience, this will be a clemency hearing. How should 219 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 3: this proceed? And I'm sure that your client has said 220 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: to you, and so I'll say to you, Okay, what 221 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: should I expect? 222 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: Now? 223 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 3: What should mister Rodwell expect? He's been given granted a hearing, 224 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 3: but it's gone longer than he should have. And like 225 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: anyone else, he's seventy one years old. He's dealing with 226 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: some medical issues of us. Granted, you know a lot 227 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 3: of time here in this earth, and he'd like to 228 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: spend some time with his family. What are you telling 229 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 3: him about? What sort of a timetable he may have 230 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 3: to face? 231 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 4: Well, under the statute, he should have already had the 232 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 4: hearing in the first place. But what we're looking for now, 233 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 4: and I understand this is a case of historical importance 234 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 4: that never before has a person with a first degree 235 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 4: murder conviction step forward and ask the governor for clemency 236 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 4: without accepting guilt. This is a case where my client 237 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 4: is maintaining his incense that I believe he's innocent, that 238 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 4: we have submitted a mountains. 239 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: But Veronica, let me just make sure I understand, because 240 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 3: I don't want to misrepresent anything to give the governor credit. 241 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 3: The governor actually changed the clemency rules, if I'm not missing, 242 00:15:58,960 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 3: and that. 243 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 4: Was a thing, and I applaud the governor. 244 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 6: For doing that. 245 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 4: And I know that I've given the Governor's office and 246 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 4: the Governor's Council and put the Parole Board a lot 247 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 4: to read. But everything is there for them, my aff 248 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 4: at David and my pitsion, I supplemented the petition. All 249 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 4: of it is right there in black and white for 250 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 4: them to see. All of the evidence that my client 251 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 4: actually never got a chance to have when he was 252 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 4: on trial when he was twenty six years old, or 253 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 4: even up to the seventh motion for new trial. Even 254 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 4: when we were litigating the seventh motion for new trial, 255 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 4: there was exculpatory evidence that the government knew about that 256 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 4: they withheld from him, that the judiciary knew about that 257 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 4: was withheld from my client. He received a very unfair 258 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 4: proceeding in his seventh motion for new trial, and now 259 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 4: he's really lost a lot of faith in the criminal 260 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 4: justice system. To be honest, we. 261 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: Have forty five years in stir well, we'll do that 262 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 3: to you. So procedurally, how fast could this happen? Other words, 263 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,880 Speaker 3: will you have to be put on notice that you'll 264 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 3: get your hearing six months or a year from I 265 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,640 Speaker 3: mean that you know he's been in jail a long time, 266 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 3: and he's not He's no longer in his twenties, right, I. 267 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 4: Mean, we got the hearing, and we got the notice 268 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 4: in April of this year, so we should have gotten 269 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 4: a hearing that would have given an ample time to 270 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 4: review the evidence. Let's say I can't. It would have 271 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 4: to be before six months according to the statute, and 272 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 4: then the governor would have to give her a final order. 273 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 4: But you know, I understand there's a lot of material here. 274 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 4: I want my date, I want my hearing gate I 275 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 4: have the ability to bring in three witnesses. I have 276 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 4: those witnesses and one I cannot even disclose the name 277 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 4: because the name is impounded. But we will be ready 278 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 4: to proceed. 279 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: Okay, So realistically, what I'm trying to get at, and 280 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: I know this is unprecedented because he you know, he 281 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 3: has the right now to seek clemency and not have 282 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 3: to admit prior it was a condition precedent, if you will, 283 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 3: that they had to be willing to admit that they 284 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 3: did the crime. And almost they're saying, Okay, I did something, 285 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 3: and they're but that that's changed now. Could could this 286 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 3: move quickly if someone took judicial notice of our conversation 287 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 3: tonight and said, look, let's get this guy uh in 288 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 3: front of the board and let's have the board review 289 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 3: the materials and have them make a decision, and hopefully 290 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: that decision from your perspective, will be you know what 291 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 3: you're what you're seeking, which is the freedom of your client. 292 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 3: Is that unreasonable to hope for to anticipate? 293 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely not up not at a bare minimum. My client 294 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 4: deserves to be released on a commutation, and then the 295 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 4: governor has the discretion to grant him potentially a pardon. 296 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 4: That is obviously not what we have petitioned. We have 297 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 4: petitioned for executive clemency. Yes, so the governor's discretion is 298 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 4: really going to be history in the making. 299 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 3: Okay, let's do this. Let's take a break. We've got 300 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 3: phone calls. I want to have people ask questions. I've 301 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 3: asked the questions that I feel I needed. I could 302 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 3: talk to you about this case for hours. 303 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 2: We spent a good. 304 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 3: Nearly an hour today going over this. It is one 305 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 3: that I was unaware of. Everybody. You know, the joke 306 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 3: is that everybody in prison tells you that they're they're 307 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 3: they're innocent, but some of the people who believe that 308 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 3: are actually innocent. And uh, and it is very well 309 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 3: based upon what I've learned from you today and from 310 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 3: the author of the article, Casey Sherman, this also might 311 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 3: be a case like this. I spent a lot of time, 312 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 3: as you have on the Savanti Lamony case with then 313 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 3: attorney Victor Garrow, hours and hours in days and days, uh, 314 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 3: just wondering how can how can people deny the obvious? 315 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:28,959 Speaker 3: And there were a lot of friends of mine who 316 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 3: are skeptics, and I'm sure that there are audience audience 317 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: members tonight who are who are thinking that they're they're skeptical, 318 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 3: but truly, truly, Unfortunately, our judicial system is not perfect, 319 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 3: and there are those within the system who do not 320 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 3: conduct themselves. As we found out with corrupt FBI agents 321 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 3: and as you've apparently found out with some other corrupt 322 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: officials there's always corruption on the wrong side, and and 323 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: that's what leads to these miscarriages of justice. 324 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: Anyway, yes, with that. 325 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 4: You can't leave me hang and I got a comment, ahead, 326 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 4: go ahead. I mean, the most frustrating thing is that 327 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 4: in Jimmy's case, we had a redacted DEA file, and 328 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 4: the judge on the case, the prosecutor on the case, 329 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 4: they all had the unredacted file. But yet the prosecution 330 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 4: and also the dictionary demanded information from my client that 331 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 4: they were sitting on and he didn't have that. So 332 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 4: it almost goes above misconduct. It's it's evidence of a 333 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 4: grave miscarriage of justice. 334 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 2: Believe me, been there seen that. 335 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 3: We'll take a break, and I guess this attorney Veronica White, 336 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 3: she's an attorney for a gentleman who's in uh in 337 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 3: prison in now for forty five years for a crime 338 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 3: that he insisted did not commit, a murder that he insisted. 339 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 2: Did not commit. His name is James Rodwell. Uh. We 340 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: will get to phone calls. 341 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: I'll get a one line at six one seven four 342 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 3: ten thirty and a couple of lines at six one 343 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 3: seven nine three thirty. We also at the Great Harvey 344 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: Silverglade on the line, and we will get to our 345 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 3: callers into Harvey into more callers right after the break. 346 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 3: So you're on night Side with Dan Ray on w 347 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 3: b Z, Boston's news radio. 348 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 2: Veronic, Iff, it's okay with you. 349 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 3: I'd like to go to the phones and try to 350 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 3: get people who want to ask questions or make comments. 351 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 2: And uh, I think. 352 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 3: I think we've we've kind of sketched it out fairly accurately, 353 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 3: and let's see what folks say. Fill in Boston, Phil, 354 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 3: your first night Side, go right ahead. You're all with 355 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 3: Veronica White, attorney for James Rodwell. 356 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,119 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I bet jug into this too quick, and 357 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 5: I apologize, but you initially was mentioned that the crime 358 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,440 Speaker 5: seventy eight. Yes, this gentleman was arrested in eighty one, correct, 359 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 5: And it was also a reference to a police officer, 360 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 5: high rank officer. Relative is why did it take three 361 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 5: years to grab this guy? 362 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 3: Right by the way, just so you know, the victim 363 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 3: was the son Phil, Phil, just let me make sure 364 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: that everybody else understands what you're referring to. You're accurate, 365 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,959 Speaker 3: You've heard it correctly. The victim was the twenty one 366 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 3: year old son of a police captain at a local 367 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 3: police department. I don't think there's any suggestion that the 368 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 3: police captain or the father of the victim had anything 369 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 3: to do with the investigation, but it did take two 370 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 3: and a half years. If you'd like to comment on 371 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 3: Phil's question, Veronica, go right ahead. 372 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,120 Speaker 4: Sure. Thanks for your question, Pella. This case was a 373 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,880 Speaker 4: cold case for several years and there was a lot 374 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 4: of pressure on the police department to solve the crime, 375 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 4: and that's where the informants came in, and the informance 376 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,439 Speaker 4: made use of that and made a deal with the 377 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 4: federal government and also fabricated information against my client. So 378 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 4: that's what happened. 379 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 6: In my opinion, the davolved. 380 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 4: Obviously the DA was involved after the DEA was involved, 381 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 4: because the witness who testified at trial that my client 382 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,479 Speaker 4: confessed to him was a unpaid and registered DEA agent. 383 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 4: He was a paid and registered DEA agent who was 384 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 4: also facing six arm robberies and a kidnapping himself. 385 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 3: When you say agent, you mean I think you mean 386 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 3: a paid de EA informant. 387 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 6: Yeah. 388 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 4: Thank you for the correction, Dan. 389 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 3: Okay, Phil, great questions. Thank you for your for your participation. 390 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 2: Not so. 391 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,360 Speaker 3: Thank you, Phil. Let me go to Harvey Silverglade. I'm 392 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 3: sure Harvey will have a perspective on this. Uh A 393 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 3: A veteran criminal defense attorney. Harvey, welcome. Say hi to 394 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 3: Attorney Veronica White. I don't know a few folks have 395 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: major acquaintance yet, but. 396 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 6: You have. 397 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 3: Great great I'd be surprised if you if you didn't, 398 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 3: go ahead, Harvey. 399 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 6: Let me say this. This is the kind of case 400 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 6: that makes my blood boil. First of all, the informant system. 401 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 6: If I paid a witness, I would be as a lawyer, 402 00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:01,439 Speaker 6: I would be indicted for corruption, corruption of justice, bribery, etc. Et. 403 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 6: Prosecutors and b e A and so forth are able 404 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 6: to make deals with witnesses given the witnesses passed on 405 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 6: all kinds of crimes, actually pay them, and they are 406 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 6: considered to be doing justice rather than corrupting justice. An 407 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 6: innocent man who was put in prison as a result 408 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 6: of a corrupt deal that should have or should have 409 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 6: invited two indictments, the guy who paid the witness and 410 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 6: the witness himself. Okay, that's number one. Number two. I'm 411 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 6: currently representing somebody in the federal system. He is he 412 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 6: was wrongfully convicted in a complicated case, and he is 413 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 6: petitioning for what is known as a rid of error quorum. Nobis. 414 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 6: What that does is it makes the prosecution no and void. 415 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 6: He not only has a record, but he can say 416 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 6: that he was not even indicted. It clears you completely. 417 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 6: And there isn't this mine hours, There isn't the state system. 418 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,359 Speaker 6: You can get a pardon, but you can't get a 419 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 6: rid of error quorum. Nobis. Anyway, this makes my blood boil. 420 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 3: End of lecture, Harvey, Harvey A quick question, and I 421 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 3: think I know the story. I believe that you, when 422 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 3: representing representing client, that the authorities, the prosecutors, try to 423 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 3: entrap you by offering you. 424 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 2: A witness to lie. 425 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 3: Uh And thank goodness that one you would not have 426 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 3: accepted that offer. But two you noticed they had a 427 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 3: wire sticking out of their closing clothing. They notmally were 428 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 3: trying to entrap you. They were trying to video to 429 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 3: audio tape you being entrapped. 430 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 6: They're so stupid, They are so stupid that they had 431 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 6: the wire sticking out of the guy's shirt collar. Really, 432 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 6: these these are not geniuses, right. Nancy Gardner and I 433 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 6: it was when I was a partners with Nancy Gardner 434 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 6: and they turned in an informant wire. 435 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: Wow. 436 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 3: Wow, So so not only did they did they use 437 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 3: informants to prosecute, but they also use individuals who would 438 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 3: be informants to entrap you, to drap defense lawyers. 439 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: How about that for a system? 440 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 3: Huh, Harvey, you're the best, You're the best, my friend. 441 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: You you know where all the bodies are buried. 442 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 3: Harvey, Thank you so much, as always, thank you, thank 443 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 3: you so. 444 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 4: Much, Harvey. And you're absolutely right. 445 00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 6: Yep, they should. There should be a special office that 446 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 6: investigates the prosecutors and indicts them. Getting getting the defendant 447 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 6: off is not adequate. We have to indict more prosecutors 448 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 6: and more government witnesses. 449 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: Which in turn which in turn will will force prosecutors 450 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 3: to play by the rules. 451 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 4: Yes, and I think we need an independent system apart 452 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 4: from the prosecution that has their eye on all of 453 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 4: the evidence that's being reviewed. All of this now in 454 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 4: this day and age, can all the electronically stored and 455 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 4: it can be reviewed by independent parties. This is a 456 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 4: case where now the Middlesex District Attorney's Office is in 457 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 4: a position of investigating themselves. 458 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 6: Right, some country have this it's called an ombudsman. Huh. 459 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 3: And you also have with you also have within the 460 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 3: federal government, you have positions called inspector generals. 461 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: Uh. 462 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: And you could have sort of the equivalent of an 463 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 3: inspector general overlooking how how prosecute his work as well. 464 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 3: Harvey is always thank you, my friend. I'm into my break. 465 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 3: I gotta let your on reluctantly. 466 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: Thank you. 467 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 6: Okay, thanks Harvey, Hi bye. 468 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 3: Uh you stay right there, Veronica. We have more phone 469 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 3: calls to deal with. You're not letting you off. 470 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 4: You're going to be with me because I wanted to 471 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 4: comment on that last one. 472 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: Go right ahead, go right ahead. 473 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 4: I you know, this case is just it It blows 474 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 4: my mind. And the worst thing is just the amount 475 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 4: of exculpatory evidence that was known and kept behind closed doors, 476 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 4: and how we had to literally lift every rock that 477 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 4: we possibly could find, that we had to navigate through 478 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 4: so many redacted documents and take advantage of every single 479 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 4: crumb that they threw at us. 480 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 481 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 3: I mean, it is a system that can be abused, 482 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 3: and it is not always abused. There are good prosecutors 483 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: and there are great prosecutors, right, and this case we. 484 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 4: Brought we asked to bring the Department of Justice in 485 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 4: to help us, and they did not help us. And 486 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 4: this is a situation where they made the work well. 487 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 3: In the Salvadi Lamoni case, it was corrupt if the 488 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 3: eye agents primarily, and so Salvadi and Limoni and two 489 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 3: other men who died in prison as innocent men, they 490 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 3: had to sue the Justice Department and the US attorneys 491 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 3: the federal government, and they did win in one hundred 492 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 3: and sixteen million dollars, not that that could make up 493 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 3: for the one hundred and nine years before of them 494 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 3: in total serves in prison. And your case hopefully will 495 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 3: have a similar resolution. We got to take a quick break. 496 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 3: I got billing Vermont and Josh and Brockton be right 497 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 3: back on Night Side with my guest attorney, Veronica White. 498 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 3: She represents James Rodwell, who has served forty five years 499 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 3: and in prison, in prison for crime that he insists 500 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 3: he did not commit, and he is coming up in 501 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 3: a clemency hearing. Back on Nightside after this. 502 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray. 503 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 2: Just in some news radio. Going back to the phones. 504 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 3: We have two calls going to get him both in. 505 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 3: So we're gonna ask Josh to start us off. Josh 506 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 3: and Brockton next on Night Side with attorney of Veronica White. 507 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 6: Hey, miss White, you were are you related to White's employments? 508 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 6: Attorney and White? 509 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 4: I don't believe, so Josh to speak. 510 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: You're on a speaker phone. I don't want to call you. 511 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 6: Call you, miss White. 512 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 3: Hey, Josh, Josh, I did yep, do me a favor. 513 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 3: Get off the speakerphone. We want to be able to 514 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 3: hear what you're saying. Okay, yeah, I'll get no, no, 515 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: don't get on and get off. I had to wait 516 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 3: for a long time. 517 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: Man. 518 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 3: Well, you know what, that's not my problem, Josh. I 519 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 3: want to hear what you have to say. 520 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 6: I'll just speak. Is that better? 521 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 2: That's much better? What's your question? What's your comment? Go ahead? 522 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 6: All right? 523 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: I did some time myself, okay, I will. 524 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 6: I have no major crimes. 525 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: Okay. 526 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 6: And when I was in doing time, they made me 527 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 6: get the vaccine. You get good time. 528 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,880 Speaker 3: So, so, Josh, how does that relate to, uh, you know, 529 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 3: everything related to the case where Josh, Josh, if if, 530 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 3: if you want to tell us that, that's fine, but 531 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 3: we're talking about the rud the Rudwell case tonight. If 532 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 3: if you feel that you've been treated badly while you 533 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 3: were incarcerated, you know you should get a lawyer, uh 534 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 3: and and discuss that case with the lawyer privately. You 535 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,040 Speaker 3: shouldn't talk about it publicly. 536 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 6: For any of that. 537 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 4: But a lot of a lot of people, a lot 538 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 4: of people getting cacerated and don't do what they did. 539 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, we're not denying that. I'm not saying a lot. 540 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 3: I'm saying some. I don't know how much, but it's 541 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 3: but there there isn't There is enough to be concerned 542 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 3: about that. 543 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 4: You can look in somebody's eyes and know if they 544 00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 4: didn't well. 545 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, Josh, I appreciate your call and congratulations on 546 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 3: getting out, and I hope things are turned. 547 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 2: Around for you. 548 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 4: Have a good evening, Josh, you too. 549 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,919 Speaker 2: Good night. Let me go to Bill in Vermont. Bill, 550 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 2: you were next on Nightside. 551 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: Go right ahead. Thank you, Dan and attorney Why you know, 552 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: Attorney Silverglade nailed it. He took the words right out 553 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: of my mouth when he said his blood was boiling. 554 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't I'm not a lawyer. I don't 555 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: have any connection to the case. I don't even live 556 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 1: in Massachusetts. But my blood is boiling. Think about the travesty, 557 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,399 Speaker 1: the conviction based on testimony for one guy who gets 558 00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: immunity and another who's a paid government agent, and all 559 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: those court rulings that went against mister Rodwell, that was 560 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: a travesty. And then finally a clemency hearing that is 561 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: granted but not scheduled. I mean, I guess my question 562 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 1: is what is happening down there. 563 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 4: That's a fantastic question. I wish I knew. I wish 564 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:03,839 Speaker 4: I could just simply have my client be heard. And 565 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 4: I have done everything I possibly can, and now we 566 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 4: are just waiting. I'm at the governor's disposal. 567 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,680 Speaker 3: And again I will say, justice delayed is justice denied. 568 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: And that is what's going on in this case right now. 569 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: Okay, and don't give up to fight. You and your 570 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 1: client and his family have shown great constraint and patience, 571 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: so continue to fight. 572 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 4: It's been a long journey. I've done a lot of 573 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 4: pro bono work on this case, and I've refused many 574 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 4: other cases so that I could continue doing the job 575 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 4: I needed to do for my client. Taken a financial 576 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 4: toll in my family. It's been very, very difficult, and 577 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 4: we are never giving up for this man, I am 578 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 4: never giving up until he goes home for me. 579 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: Well, Dan, I guess that's a great final word day 580 00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,879 Speaker 1: in the hour, isn't it. Well done? 581 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 2: Well well done to you as well. Bill. 582 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 3: I don't know how much you're listening night's that up 583 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 3: in Vermont, but you're the sort of caller that I 584 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:07,920 Speaker 3: really do appreciate. 585 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: Thank you. 586 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:10,359 Speaker 6: Yeh, that's how I can listen. 587 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: That's why I started. 588 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 3: So Well, that's been a while, but I've been here now, 589 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 3: this is my nineteenth year, and I just can't tell 590 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,320 Speaker 3: you how much I appreciate when someone like yourself calls 591 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 3: and really understands what we're talking about and adds to 592 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 3: the conversation. So I just want to say, and I 593 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 3: hope you become a more frequent caller to my program. 594 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: I will do that, Thank you, sir. 595 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 4: Thanks Bill, it's wonderful speaking to you and you as well. 596 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: A journey White best to blocking Fornica. 597 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 3: Will We will stay on top of this. You know 598 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 3: you have been on top of it for fifteen years. 599 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 3: We certainly will be on top of it for whatever 600 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 3: it takes. Fifteen weeks, fifteen months, or whatever. 601 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 4: Whatever it takes. I'm not going to stop no ever, 602 00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:56,960 Speaker 4: I knew. 603 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 3: That once I talked to you today and mister Rodwell 604 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,879 Speaker 3: as where where I was all represented at this point. 605 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 3: If you, if you talk to Marty Weinberg as I 606 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 3: mentioned today, please give Marty my best and keep and posted, 607 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,200 Speaker 3: keep you informed, keep us informed in this You have 608 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 3: my contact information, I have your contact information. I look 609 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 3: forward to the night that we can have you back 610 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 3: and celebrate justice being completed. 611 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 4: And I would thank you so much, Dan, I would. 612 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 4: I just want to give a shout out to my investigator, 613 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 4: Kevin Flynn. I couldn't have done any of this work 614 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 4: without him, my co counsel, Aviva Jerusalem, my best friend 615 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 4: and mentor, and she's amazing. And Ben Leatherman, Max Bauer, 616 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:45,879 Speaker 4: Katie Mulligan, and my current associate Nicholas Santiago. Marty Weinberg 617 00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 4: has been amazing to work with on this case. And 618 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 4: I just am so grateful to have the team that 619 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 4: I have, the support, the support from the Rodwell family 620 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 4: and Jimmy's courage. 621 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 3: All right, thank you very much, Victoria, uh and enjoy 622 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 3: your your. 623 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 4: Call me Victoria, but my name is Veronica. 624 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 2: Veronica. 625 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I'm my mistake I think that's the first 626 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 3: mistake I made tonight, so I apologize. Attorney Veronica White, 627 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,279 Speaker 3: thank you so much. We'll talk again. 628 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,239 Speaker 4: Okay, thanks for talking to you. 629 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 3: We have one hour left right after the eleven o'clock 630 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 3: news here on night Side.