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Speaker 1: From WBZ News Radio in Boston. This is New England Weekend.

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Speaker 1: Each week right here, we come together and talk about

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Speaker 1: all the topics important to you and the place where

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Speaker 1: you live. Thanks for tuning in again this week. I'm

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Speaker 1: Nicole Davis. Massachusetts and especially Greater Boston is often seen

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Speaker 1: by people around the world as a hub of innovation

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Speaker 1: and progress when it comes to wage equity, though the

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Speaker 1: progress is not moving quite as quickly as we're used

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Speaker 1: to in other areas. The Boston Women's Workforce Council is

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Speaker 1: out with its latest report about the wage gap in

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Speaker 1: the region, and it does show the gap is getting smaller,

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Speaker 1: but it also shows there are major disparities that have

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Speaker 1: to be tackled, especially when it comes to Hispanic and

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Speaker 1: Black employees. The Council is doing that work by teaming

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Speaker 1: up with businesses all over the region, getting in there

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Speaker 1: helping c suites take a closer, more impactful look at

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Speaker 1: inequities within their own ranks while offering solutions to help

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Speaker 1: close those gaps. Executive Director Kim Borman is here to

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Speaker 1: talk with us about this now. Kim, thanks for the time.

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Speaker 1: Give us a bit more detail if you could, about

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Speaker 1: the council and the work you're doing on this issue.

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Speaker 2: So we are a partnership between the Mayor of Boston,

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Speaker 2: whomever that may be, and employers in Greater Boston that

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Speaker 2: are dedicated to closing gender and racial wage gaps. And

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Speaker 2: we do that in many different ways, but one of

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Speaker 2: the most important is that every two years we ask

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Speaker 2: our members to give us right off their PERO systems

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Speaker 2: data about their employees that includes compensation, and we are

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Speaker 2: able to see them and report on an aggregated basically

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Speaker 2: community progress made to close gender and racial wage gaps.

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Speaker 3: So that's who we are.

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Speaker 2: In addition, we share best practices and we really are

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Speaker 2: the go to resource for employers who are interested in

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Speaker 2: pay equity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to talk about your compact and you

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Speaker 1: know who your signers might be. We'll touch on that

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Speaker 1: in a couple of minutes. For people who may not

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Speaker 1: be familiar with the concept of gender pay equity, I

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Speaker 1: mean there is a simple term. It's you know, people

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Speaker 1: of all genders making the same amount of money for

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Speaker 1: the same job. But there are a lot of factors

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Speaker 1: in history behind this. So if you could break it

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Speaker 1: down a bit for us.

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Speaker 2: Of course, So the way we look at it is.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like a raw gender wage gap. And what

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Speaker 2: does that mean. That means we look at, honestly, the

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Speaker 2: average of all the working men versus the average salary

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Speaker 2: of all working women, and we look at it in

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Speaker 2: terms of base compensation and also in terms of performance pay.

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Speaker 3: And why do we do it that way?

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Speaker 2: I mean sometimes people ask us about, well, what about

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Speaker 2: education and experience? We do it this way on purpose,

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Speaker 2: because we are looking not only horizontally. I call it

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Speaker 2: equal pay for equal work, which has been the law

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Speaker 2: since nineteen sixty three, frankly, and it was strengthened in

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen in Massachusetts through the Massachusetts Equality Pay Act.

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Speaker 2: If you're familiar with that, equal pay for equal work,

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Speaker 2: you can be fined a lot by if people can

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Speaker 2: prove that. What's harder and more difficult to see is

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Speaker 2: what I kind of call vertical, which is our people.

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Speaker 3: Being advanced fairly.

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Speaker 2: So are the groups that usually don't get attention paid

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Speaker 2: to them not getting advanced as quickly as other groups

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Speaker 2: that usually do get a lot of attention paid to them.

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Speaker 2: Because if that is happening, you will never be able

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Speaker 2: to close the gap, even if you're paying everybody The

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Speaker 2: same is at the administrative support level. If only certain

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Speaker 2: people lead the administrative support level to more senior positions

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Speaker 2: where they actually make more money, you're going to have

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Speaker 2: a huge gap. So that's why we do it.

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Speaker 3: The way we do it is.

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Speaker 2: We look at the average compensation of men versus the

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Speaker 2: average compensation with women, and we also do it by race.

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Speaker 1: When you're looking at all this data on pay equity,

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Speaker 1: do you include research on transgender women or people who

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Speaker 1: identify as non binary? How does that all work?

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Speaker 2: We do ask the question, and this is something that

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Speaker 2: our employers give to us. The fact is that the

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Speaker 2: employers ask it themselves. They don't get that information very often,

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Speaker 2: especially now I have to tell you, so, yes, it

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Speaker 2: is something that we look at non binary in particular,

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Speaker 2: but we get such few responses that we aren't able

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Speaker 2: to do a whole lot with that information.

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Speaker 1: That's understandable. So let's talk about the report that you

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Speaker 1: recently put out and in some areas there has been

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Speaker 1: major improvement. Here. You know, women are now up to

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Speaker 1: earning eighty eight cents for every dollar a man earns

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Speaker 1: in Greater Boston. Tell us a bit about how that's

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Speaker 1: improved over the past few years.

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Speaker 3: We look at it well two ways.

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Speaker 2: But basically the gap then from that eighty eight sense

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Speaker 2: so that gap is twelve cents. That gap used to

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Speaker 2: be twenty one sense two years before, and actually it

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Speaker 2: was thirty cents, so it's gone down quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: And the base compensation in particular now it goes up

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Speaker 2: a little bit to eighteen cents when you add the

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Speaker 2: performance paid to it, but still that's a lot different

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Speaker 2: than the thirty cents we saw for total compensation in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. So overall, yes, there has been a

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Speaker 2: huge decrease in the gender wage gap. Part of this

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Speaker 2: is because we saw seven percent increase in women moving

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Speaker 2: to more senior positions in fact the C suite in particular,

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Speaker 2: which means again that you're getting a higher salary. So

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Speaker 2: that makes the average. It brings the averages closer together,

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Speaker 2: shall I say.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it's not a complete gain considering when it looks

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Speaker 1: when you look at the data for women of color,

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Speaker 1: the gap is still significantly bigger. So let's talk about

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Speaker 1: what you found for Hispanic women and black women specifically

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Speaker 1: here compared to white women.

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Speaker 2: Hispanic women in particular have a gap of fifty one cence,

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Speaker 2: we'll put it that way, and that's a forty nine,

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Speaker 2: So they bring home forty nine cents on the dollar

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Speaker 2: versus that eighty eight cent stuff on the dollar you

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Speaker 2: were talking about on average. Then black women they have

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Speaker 2: a gap of fifty three cents or bring home forty

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Speaker 2: seven cents on the dollar. I mean, you know, less

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Speaker 2: than half of that dollar. Interestingly though, well also you

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Speaker 2: probably noted, is that the biggest gap is actually for

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Speaker 2: black men. And we're comparing all of this to white

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Speaker 2: men and their salaries, and why do we do that,

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Speaker 2: Because there's just more of them, and they typically are

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Speaker 2: the people who get paid the most. But the black

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Speaker 2: man's gap is fifty five cents, meaning they bring home

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Speaker 2: forty five cents on the dollar. So there is definitely

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Speaker 2: a compound disparity when you look at gender and race.

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Speaker 1: Together here in Massachusetts. Obviously, we're seeing in Greater Boston

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Speaker 1: that this is a problem that is improving by the year.

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Speaker 1: How does Massachusetts fair or Greater Boston fair to other

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Speaker 1: major metros or just nationwide in general?

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Speaker 2: Do you know, Well, there is a national Equal Payday

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Speaker 2: that is in March, but it's not the number that

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Speaker 2: they use that they'll tell you about which I think

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Speaker 2: is nineteen cents comes right off the census. But the census,

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Speaker 2: as you know, it's just not that accurate. It's based

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Speaker 2: on whether somebody can remember what they were paid and

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Speaker 2: when they were paid it, and what the bonus structure was.

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Speaker 2: And the bottom line is we are the only organization

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Speaker 2: nationwide that does this really, So I wish I could

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Speaker 2: tell you that there are other groups out there.

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Speaker 3: We get calls all the time, whether.

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Speaker 2: It be from Governor Newsom's wife in California or her organization,

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Speaker 2: the mayor's office in Chicago. How do you make this happen?

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Speaker 2: How have you all been able to do this? It's

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Speaker 2: really because of this partnership between the City of Boston

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Speaker 2: and employers wanting to make a difference. So I wish

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Speaker 2: I could tell you Nicole that, yes, you can compare

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Speaker 2: it around. The only thing that's really out there is

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Speaker 2: again a number that's put out by different organizations, but

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Speaker 2: they do it the same way through the Census.

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Speaker 3: We are the only ones who do it.

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Speaker 2: Accurately, we feel, or more accurately right off of a

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Speaker 2: peril system.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I really hope that that changes, because that is

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Speaker 1: astounding to me that you are the only one. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm grateful you're here in doing it, but that is

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Speaker 1: astounding that you're the only ones doing it so far

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Speaker 1: in the year twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 3: I know. Wow, it is something that.

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Speaker 1: Is something Have you noticed through your research in your

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Speaker 1: work that it's a generational gap when it comes to

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Speaker 1: wage transparency, because I feel that Gen Z and millennials

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Speaker 1: are way more willing to talk about their wages than

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Speaker 1: perhaps Gen xers or boomers. Have you found that to

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Speaker 1: be the case, Yes.

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Speaker 2: We have, but we're not asking them individually, no, of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, it becomes.

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Speaker 3: An forget that they give us.

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Speaker 2: And but yes, in terms of the stories that we hear,

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Speaker 2: the younger employees are much more willing to say what

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Speaker 2: they're earning. And it's good for them because that's the

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Speaker 2: only way that you know and can find out if

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Speaker 2: you're not earning what you should be earning at your

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Speaker 2: job category. Now, of course, now you can because of

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Speaker 2: the way transparency bands that we're a part of the

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Speaker 2: Francis Perkins Workplace Equity Act. That will help, but you're

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Speaker 2: still going to have to find out where on that

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Speaker 2: band you are versus other people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, are the businesses you're working with are

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Speaker 1: they recognizing this is happening and willing to make change

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Speaker 1: or are they just saying, well, this is the industry,

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Speaker 1: it's education, Like what is the excuse here for this?

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Speaker 3: So they definitely recognize it.

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Speaker 2: And it's very interesting cool because we have all sorts of.

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Speaker 3: Organizations that work with us.

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Speaker 2: We have the big companies in town, the State Streets,

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Speaker 2: the Vertex, the mass mutuals, and then we have smaller groups,

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Speaker 2: nonprofits and construction architecture. Because it was a data year,

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Speaker 2: and because it was a strange politically charged year, we

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Speaker 2: didn't know if we would get the same participation in

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Speaker 2: the data measurement as we have in the past. And

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Speaker 2: lo and behold, we did. I can't tell you which

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Speaker 2: companies because I don't even know that, because that's a

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Speaker 2: part of the whole confidentiality. I don't know who gives

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Speaker 2: us their data. But actually I know who gives us

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Speaker 2: their data. I don't know what their data says. I

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Speaker 2: know who gives us their data because I want to

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Speaker 2: thank them for it. The point is is that people

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Speaker 2: still care about this, people still want to do something

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Speaker 2: about this, but it's a long slog and people know

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Speaker 2: that too, and I think employees know that too. In

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Speaker 2: wage transparency is extremely important as a concept. It's something

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Speaker 2: you want your employer to be paying attention to. But

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Speaker 2: we've found over and over again that the employees aren't

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Speaker 2: expecting this to go away overnight. They know this takes years.

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Speaker 2: So yes to your question, employers are trying, and they're

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Speaker 2: trying everything they can, and they test different things because

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Speaker 2: there isn't a silver bullet. It depends on your culture,

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Speaker 2: it depends on your leadership, it depends on sort of

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Speaker 2: your workforce, and you know, are they frontline are they

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Speaker 2: backline these kinds of things. So that's why one of

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Speaker 2: the things we do is try to share as many

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Speaker 2: practices that are working out there with our members so

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Speaker 2: that they can test and learn as they go.

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Speaker 1: What is the City of Boston doing to try to

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Speaker 1: narrow these wage gaps? I mean, I know there's so

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Speaker 1: many different programs and a lot of assistance in place,

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Speaker 1: but when it comes to your work specifically, how is

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Speaker 1: the city helping you in this?

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Speaker 2: The city helps us, first of all by using our

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Speaker 2: research and our data whenever they can. In terms of

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Speaker 2: when they're talking to businesses. They also help us in recruiting,

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Speaker 2: and then they also help us by giving us their

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Speaker 2: data every couple of years, which is you know, it's

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Speaker 2: a big it's a big ask for them because there's

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Speaker 2: so many employees. So they've been very helpful. And no

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Speaker 2: matter how many mayors we've had since it started with

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Speaker 2: you know, Mayor Menino, every mayor has been very supportive

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Speaker 2: of our work.

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Speaker 1: So your members are called one hundred percent Talent Compact signers,

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Speaker 1: And I'd love to know what this compact includes and

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Speaker 1: you know, what are some of these practices that you're

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Speaker 1: leaning on here is we try to get closer to

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Speaker 1: equity and parity here.

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Speaker 2: So the one hundred percent Talent Compact was something that

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Speaker 2: was devised. I believe there was some kind of one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent compact during the two thousand and eight financial

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Speaker 2: crisis that we had, and so the idea of a

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Speaker 2: compact and that you know, there's something between the government

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Speaker 2: and employers to try to make society better.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of how the name came about.

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Speaker 2: What it is is a pledge and it's a pretty

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Speaker 2: it's like two lines and we ask people one to

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Speaker 2: pledge that they will look at their numbers and do

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Speaker 2: the math and find out whether or not they have

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Speaker 2: wage gaps and then work towards closing those gaps, and

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Speaker 2: of course we will help them do that. There's also

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Speaker 2: a request for them to give us their data every

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Speaker 2: two years.

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Speaker 3: And most of them do.

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Speaker 2: Some of them don't usually because we hit them at

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Speaker 2: the wrong time of year and they just don't have

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Speaker 2: the staff to do it. And then the third thing

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Speaker 2: is that to share best practices and come to our

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Speaker 2: events and the networking. So that's really what it involves.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we will take, as I said, any organization,

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Speaker 2: any member, any employer out there that wants to be

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Speaker 2: a part of the contact. We'd love to have you

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Speaker 2: because the more data we have, the more projectable are

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Speaker 2: information is now when you say what works and what doesn't.

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Speaker 2: As I said, there's no silver bullet, but we give

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Speaker 2: they're called Wage Equity Impact Awards and we're about to

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Speaker 2: open the application for them for this year. We used

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Speaker 2: to call them innovative initiative wards, and then we realized

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Speaker 2: they don't need to be that innovative.

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Speaker 3: They just need to work.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty straightforward stuff if you ask right.

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Speaker 2: So what we find out honestly is the first step

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Speaker 2: is doing the math and needs to really like look

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Speaker 2: at your numbers and see, as I said, horizontally equal

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Speaker 2: pay for equal work, but also looking at it in

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Speaker 2: terms of advancement and our people being advanced at the

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Speaker 2: same rate as their colleagues. When people start to do

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Speaker 2: the math, and we call it wage Calculator dot org.

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Speaker 2: We put that together with the city so anybody, whether

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Speaker 2: you're a member or not, can go to that website

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Speaker 2: and put in their information and it'll spit it out

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Speaker 2: against our information. And we've updated it so that so

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Speaker 2: that you can just as a benchmark. But that's the

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Speaker 2: first place to start. Then there are other things to

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Speaker 2: look at. One year we gave a ward to Mass

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Speaker 2: General Brigham and was really Mass General and it was

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Speaker 2: very interesting. It was during COVID and there's something called

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Speaker 2: Grand rounds that doctors are expected to do. I was

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Speaker 2: kind of surprised. Doctors don't get promoted just because.

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Speaker 3: They save lives. They also have to do.

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Speaker 2: Extracurricular things, and there's something called grand rounds where you

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Speaker 2: either go to a different hospitals, say across the nation

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Speaker 2: or across the ocean for about six months and you

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Speaker 2: are a part of their doctor community and you are

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Speaker 2: supposed to be sharing with them what you know and

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Speaker 2: what you learn in your expertise.

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Speaker 3: And they just couldn't find.

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Speaker 2: Women, especially women between the ages of thirty to forty

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Speaker 2: who were doctors, to apply for the program, and because

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Speaker 2: they weren't applying for the program, they weren't getting promoted

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Speaker 2: to the next level. So during COVID mess general, I

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Speaker 2: mean it was they leveled the playing field because nobody

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Speaker 2: was I was traveling. So the grand rounds were done

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Speaker 2: through zooms and they encouraged women to become a part

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Speaker 2: of this program and to really apply for grand rounds,

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Speaker 2: and they got about thirty percent more women, and they

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Speaker 2: had ten percent more women promoted the next year. So

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Speaker 2: you could honestly see the difference there.

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Speaker 1: Look at that. It's simple stuff. This does not have

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Speaker 1: to be groundbreaking now. It's very simple things. You just

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Speaker 1: have to sit down and you know, take a few

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Speaker 1: minutes and really take a look at the numbers. Because

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Speaker 1: I'm sure if you're running a successful business, or even

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Speaker 1: if you're just in a startup and you're trying to

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Speaker 1: get things going, there are so many things that are

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Speaker 1: going around at one time, you may just not even

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Speaker 1: realize that this is happening exactly.

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Speaker 2: And that's why we say look at the math, because

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Speaker 2: you may be very surprised. And again, of course it's

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Speaker 2: the math not just gender, but it's also you know,

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Speaker 2: the racial wage gaps, and to look at those.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, and of course you know there are inevitably

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Speaker 1: going to be perhaps some people who are doing it deliberately.

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Speaker 1: How do we change that?

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Speaker 2: That is what the law is supposed to help in

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Speaker 2: terms of equal pay for equal work and MEPA that's

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Speaker 2: supposed to help that. It's much more hard, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's much more difficult to show discrimination that you're not

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Speaker 2: getting advanced because people are discriminating against you. So it's

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Speaker 2: there are laws, of course out there that are supposed

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Speaker 2: to help you, but they take.

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Speaker 3: Years and take a long long time.

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Speaker 2: So that's why we're pretty happy that we have two

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Speaker 2: hundred plus employers who are interested in doing it on

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Speaker 2: their own and figuring out how they can make these

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Speaker 2: gaps go away.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you're working greater Boston, so it's not just

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Speaker 1: Boston proper. Really, anybody I'd say, what within four ninety

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Speaker 1: five or one twenty eight, how far are you going

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Speaker 1: out here?

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Speaker 3: We go out to four ninety five.

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Speaker 2: Oh great, and we're talking about going statewide, but right

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Speaker 2: now we're within the four ninety five corridor.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So somebody owns a business and they're listening, and

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Speaker 1: they happen to be working in like Metro West or something.

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Speaker 1: You're happy to take their data?

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Speaker 3: Of course, of course, wonderful. Give me a call, we'll

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Speaker 3: talk to you.

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Speaker 1: We will happily take your data for good research, you know. So,

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Speaker 1: I guess my final question to you is, if somebody

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Speaker 1: is listening and they're having some doubts that they are

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Speaker 1: being paid properly, what is your advice to a worker

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Speaker 1: who either wants to make sure that they're getting paid

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Speaker 1: equitably or maybe they just aren't sure.

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Speaker 2: Again, our audience and our employers, So what I would

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Speaker 2: tell you from our employer's point of view is go

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Speaker 2: talk to your HR people, and especially now with the

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Speaker 2: passage of the Francis Perkins Workplace Equity Act, that is

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Speaker 2: the entire point is that these hard conversations are going

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Speaker 2: to have to start happening because there's going to be

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Speaker 2: transparency about what the band is in terms of what

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Speaker 2: your job should be paid.

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Speaker 3: And this is going to make a.

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Speaker 2: Real difference internally, so start having those hard conversations. Hopefully

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Speaker 2: the employers are being trained on how to speak about

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Speaker 2: these things. But employees should not feel in any way

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Speaker 2: threatened by going to HR and talking about this because

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Speaker 2: it's kind of expected now.

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Speaker 1: Wage Gap Calculator dot org is your website for employers

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Speaker 1: to go to and navigate that pretty straightforward if they

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Speaker 1: want to get that information. How else can people get

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Speaker 1: a hold of you? Employers are just people who are

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Speaker 1: interested in your work.

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Speaker 2: They can go to our website at the thhe BWWC

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Speaker 2: dot org and you'll see everything you need to about

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Speaker 2: our organization, but also a contact form and we will

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Speaker 2: get in touch as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 1: All right, VBWWC dot org. That's it, all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: Kim Borman, it is wonderful to have you here on

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Speaker 1: the show. Executive Director of the Boston Women's Workforce Council. Kim,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for the time and the education. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: Have a safe and healthy weekend. Be sure to join

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Speaker 1: us again next week for another edition of the show.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nicole Davis from WBZ NewsRadio on iHeartRadio,