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Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,

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Speaker 1: Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: There was a very important parole hearing today at the

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Speaker 2: Massachusetts pro Bought Out in Natick, Massachusetts, when the man

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Speaker 2: who shot and killed I would argue, executed Massachusettstate Police

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Speaker 2: Trooper George Hannah in Auburn, Massachusetts back in nineteen eighty three,

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Speaker 2: had his first chance at a parole hearing. Jose Cologne

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Speaker 2: had been sentenced to life in prison without parole, but

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Speaker 2: because of a Massachusetts State Supreme Court decision of a

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Speaker 2: year ago, the Maddis Decision, because he was twenty years

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Speaker 2: of age under the age of twenty one at the

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Speaker 2: time of the killing, the sentence of life without parole

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Speaker 2: was basically vacated by the State Supreme Court and he

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Speaker 2: had a parole hearing today. Last night I talked about

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Speaker 2: the letter that Governor Marre Healey sent a very strongly

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Speaker 2: worded letter to the Parole Board. I'm delighted to be

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Speaker 2: joined tonight by Massachusetts Governor Mara Heey. Governor Heally, thank

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Speaker 2: you very much for joining us tonight. It's been a while.

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Speaker 2: How are you this evening.

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Speaker 1: I'm good and you know, great to be with you.

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Speaker 2: Dan, it's great, it's great to have you on. I

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Speaker 2: really thought the letter that you wrote I read portions

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Speaker 2: of it in the in the Herald yesterday, in the

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Speaker 2: Globe today was extremely important and extremely well thought out.

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Speaker 2: This is a letter that has not been written by

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Speaker 2: a governor just as another one of her duties. How

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Speaker 2: much time and thought did you put into this letter.

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Speaker 2: It's apparent to me that that you spent some time

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Speaker 2: pulling your thoughts together on this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, it's it's it's been a long day, Dan,

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Speaker 1: you know I I started out this morning attending the

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Speaker 1: funeral of officers Stephen Laporta, the wonderful man who was

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Speaker 1: tragically killed in the line of duty last week. And

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Speaker 1: you know, it just it just brings home these these

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Speaker 1: events just bring home the sacrifice that men and women

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Speaker 1: are willing to make when they become police officers.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's it's not a normal job. It's a different kind

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Speaker 1: of job, and you know it is a job that

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Speaker 1: you know, it really has the potential for the absolute

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Speaker 1: worst for oneself and one's family. And it's important to

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Speaker 1: say that because you know, I did spend time with this.

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Speaker 1: This was important. I've been attorney General. I've been a

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Speaker 1: prosecutor and now I'm governor, and I've had the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to work with many in law enforcement and many law

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Speaker 1: enforcement families. Deliberately killing a police officer is one of

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Speaker 1: the most heinous crimes, and I've come to know the

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Speaker 1: Hannah family over the last several years. His name, Hannah's

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Speaker 1: name is attached to the highest honor that we give

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Speaker 1: to law enforcement in Massachusetts. The ceremony was just months ago,

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Speaker 1: and we do that every year, and so I thought

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Speaker 1: it was important to be clear as governor about the

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Speaker 1: importance of ensuring Thatchoper Hannah's killer not be released, not

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Speaker 1: be paroled.

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Speaker 2: My brother, who's a former state police trooper, used to

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Speaker 2: say to me that in his line of work, he

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Speaker 2: didn't meet the best clientele. And I think that's what

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Speaker 2: you sort of alluded to in your letter you wrote,

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Speaker 2: and if you don't mind it, had liked to quote

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Speaker 2: it because I think it was very powerful. You wrote

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Speaker 2: that you recognize the board must evaluate parole matters within

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Speaker 2: its legal mandate and established criteria, and nothing in this

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Speaker 2: letter is intended to lessen that duty or substitute my

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Speaker 2: judgment for yours. I write to state plainly that the

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Speaker 2: nature of this offense, the magnitude of its harm, the

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Speaker 2: welfare of this state, and the enduring public significance of

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Speaker 2: Trooper handed sacrifice. WAGH decisively against release. For these reasons.

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Speaker 2: I strongly urge the Board to deny parole for jose Cologne.

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Speaker 2: My suspicion is, Governor, that there is probably not everyone agrees.

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Speaker 2: I agree with you, but if not, everyone agrees with

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Speaker 2: you in this And I'm sure that there are plenty

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Speaker 2: of people in Massachusetts who would look and say, well,

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Speaker 2: forty three years for Jose Cologne is a long time,

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Speaker 2: but it's also been forty three years for the hand

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Speaker 2: of family, and I think that's an important thing to

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Speaker 2: consider as well. And you talk about spending time every

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Speaker 2: year with Deborah and Kimberly his daughters at the awards ceremony.

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Speaker 2: Talk about what sort of an impact that has on you,

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Speaker 2: and also I'm sure on other governors as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, these are decisions that I don't make

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Speaker 1: or undertake lightly. Every day, Dan, I'm making decisions, and

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Speaker 1: every day there's going to be some who agree with me,

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Speaker 1: and there are going to be others who don't. And

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Speaker 1: that's sort of the nature of my line of work, right,

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Speaker 1: But on this, you know, this was this was a

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Speaker 1: personal and professional here. You know, I'm somebody who's worked

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Speaker 1: with survivors, worked with victims of crimes for many, many,

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Speaker 1: many years now, and it's really important that consideration be

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Speaker 1: paid to not only the public safety impact in something

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Speaker 1: like a parole board hearing, but also that the voices

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Speaker 1: of victims and survivors are heard. And you know, every

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Speaker 1: time I see Debbie and Kim and others, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there have been others who have been killed in the

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Speaker 1: line of duty, you know, I think about Michael Chessa

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Speaker 1: and Scott Kenyon. Sure, I mean, you know, and it's

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Speaker 1: just that pain. It doesn't go away, it doesn't lessen

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Speaker 1: for these families. And to me, I've always looked at

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Speaker 1: it like these families serve alongside their husband or wife

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Speaker 1: who's a police officer, right, they do are there.

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Speaker 2: And.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's really important. We want to support police,

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Speaker 1: we want to encourage people to go into policing. And

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Speaker 1: I believe, and it was in my judgment that the

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Speaker 1: Jose Cologne Chip Hannah's killer should not be released. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't support law enforcement. It doesn't further public safety because

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Speaker 1: you want people to know and families to know that

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Speaker 1: if their son or daughter is going to become a

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Speaker 1: police officer and put their life on the line, which

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Speaker 1: is what they do every single day, because things can happen.

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Speaker 1: Accidents can happen, a killing can happen, right, and it's

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Speaker 1: important that they know that that we have your back,

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Speaker 1: you know, and more than anything, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: from a personal level, to see the pain and anguish

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Speaker 1: that these family members live with forty years on in

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Speaker 1: this instance, you know, that's something that you have to

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Speaker 1: account for. And you know it's very hard for family

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Speaker 1: members and victims and survivors generally to have to relive

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Speaker 1: the horror of a crime. Right It's just so so painful,

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Speaker 1: and that needs to be accounted for.

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Speaker 2: Just one other question. I know it's been a long day,

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Speaker 2: so I want to we're not going to do phone calls.

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Speaker 2: I just want to thank you again for joining us

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Speaker 2: tonight because your voice and this is very important. I

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Speaker 2: was a little surprised that there are two hundred inmates

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Speaker 2: who are eligible now for parole hearings because the murder

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Speaker 2: in the first degree can victions that they are all

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Speaker 2: in prison for occurred when they were under the age

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Speaker 2: of twenty one. And obviously the Maddess decision, which I

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Speaker 2: think it was a four to three decision, which is

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Speaker 2: interesting to me as a lawyer because the Supreme Court

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Speaker 2: very rarely in Massachusetts they like to do unanimous decisions.

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Speaker 2: But as a consequence of that, Governor, I understand there's

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Speaker 2: two hundred cases that eventually will come before the parole board,

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Speaker 2: and as of mid December, both the Globe and the

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Speaker 2: Herald report that fifty one cases have been decided and

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Speaker 2: seventy six percent of those cases, thirty nine have been

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Speaker 2: granted parole, which if that percentage continues to hold, that

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Speaker 2: means that approximately one hundred and fifty out of two

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Speaker 2: hundred people are you know who have been convicted from

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Speaker 2: murder in the first degree, will be back on the

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Speaker 2: streets of Massachusetts. I understand that might be an occasional

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Speaker 2: case here and there which merits serious consideration, but to me,

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Speaker 2: the percentage of successful in the first fifty one cases

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Speaker 2: is a staggering figure. I'm sure you're aware of that number,

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Speaker 2: am I Overreacting to that seventy six percent parole figure, I.

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Speaker 1: Would never tell you you're overreacting, Dan, but I will

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Speaker 1: say this, and you're a lawyer, right, let me start

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Speaker 1: with this. Okay. You know, the reason that I sent

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Speaker 1: the letter and that I oppose the release is because

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Speaker 1: the deliberate killing of a police officer is a heinous crime, right,

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Speaker 1: And I separate that out. And it's not to detract

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Speaker 1: from the impact or the hurt of any number of

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Speaker 1: crimes that's visited on survivors and families. Okay, But to me,

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Speaker 1: it's like a separate category because it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: taking on some somebody who is in this position, and

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Speaker 1: it just it deserves a separate consideration. And to my mind,

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Speaker 1: it just this the facts of this particular case. To me,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be on record as strongly opposing Trouper

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Speaker 1: Hamma's killer's release. Now, parole generally, I mean parole, you know,

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Speaker 1: as an independent agency, and you know, in our law

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Speaker 1: here there's the opportunity for a parole board to consider

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Speaker 1: things over time, through a hearing process and through information

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Speaker 1: and then make a decision about whether somebody has done

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Speaker 1: the work and shown you know that they've been either

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Speaker 1: rehabilitated and remorseful and the like, and it's appropriate and

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Speaker 1: in the answers to public safety to that it's not

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Speaker 1: bad for public safety, I should say through these this person,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's their system, and even the s jc's

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Speaker 1: decision in that is I'm not saying that I have

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Speaker 1: a problem with that decision at all, Dan that decision.

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Speaker 1: Let's remember, okay, that we're just talking about people who

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Speaker 1: committed a crime under the age of twenty. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: you know, you're not talking about people who have, you know,

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Speaker 1: years and years and decades of criminal conduct. It's not

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Speaker 1: to say that some of their criminal conduct isn't awful.

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Speaker 1: I mean, see the example we're talking about with Jose Cologne.

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Speaker 1: But it's just to say, like, it's that category of offenders, right,

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Speaker 1: So I think in some ways it's not surprising to

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Speaker 1: me that it's a higher percentage because these were crimes

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Speaker 1: committed by people who some would say our kids, you know,

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Speaker 1: depending you know, you're talking about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen year olds.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's eighteen nineteen year olds as well. But

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Speaker 1: you get my point, Like, it's.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I do I understand your point.

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Speaker 1: There's a I think it's I think what's important and

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Speaker 1: in the what the parole board needs to do is

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Speaker 1: consider the facts of each case. I mean each case

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Speaker 1: is different, right, I mean, each each person before the

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Speaker 1: parole board is different, and they've got to take that in.

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Speaker 1: They've got to do the homework, and they've got to

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Speaker 1: have the hearings, and each case has to be decided

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Speaker 1: on its own merit. I'm monitoring it. I'm not involved

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Speaker 1: in the process, but I'm certainly monitoring it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and paying attention to what's happening here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as they say, it's just the percentage in the

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Speaker 2: first case, is if I because obviously in most of

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Speaker 2: these cases, these are all the first bites at the apple,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of people who commit much less

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Speaker 2: serious crimes, who have long sentences, who are not not paroled.

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Speaker 2: I just thought the figure of seventy six percent. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to get your reaction to it, and it'll be

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Speaker 2: interesting to see if that if that success rate, if

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Speaker 2: you want to call it that, of the people who

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Speaker 2: are asking for parole, if that percentage continues as they

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Speaker 2: work through all of these two hundred, well.

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Speaker 1: Individually, I hear you. I hear you, and you know, right,

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Speaker 1: the pro board is only about twenty five percent of

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Speaker 1: the way through. You know, if you look at some

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Speaker 1: of the crimes, remember this is a case that involves

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Speaker 1: the defenders are people who were not before mattis eligible

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Speaker 1: for parole right because they were sentenced for life. And

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Speaker 1: so some we know have been in there, you know,

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Speaker 1: five years, ten years, thirty years, forty years. Right, It's

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Speaker 1: just it's just a range. And some of the crimes,

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Speaker 1: not this one, okay, not super Hannah's killing, yep. You know,

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Speaker 1: there are just some crimes where you know, you've got

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Speaker 1: you've got young people who may have been a seventeen

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Speaker 1: year old he is there while other bad acts are done.

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Speaker 1: Felony murder you know, ends up being the charge. And

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Speaker 1: you know it's these kinds of scenarios, right, so you

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Speaker 1: know it's got to be case by case, but.

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Speaker 2: Well, well this one to support your case. This is

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Speaker 2: the case where as I understand that it was Trooper

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Speaker 2: Hannah was shot intentionally at close range six times. That

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Speaker 2: sounds to me execution. And you're right, a felony murder.

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Speaker 2: Some guy drives to Robert Licorster, someone jumps in and

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Speaker 2: they shoot skill somebody you're involved in a felony. You

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Speaker 2: and I from law school know what felony murder is,

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Speaker 2: and you look at a case like.

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Speaker 1: That driver the driver goes away.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely at their drivers as well as the shooter correct.

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Speaker 2: And oftentimes there have been cases where the shooter has

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Speaker 2: testified against the driver and the shooter gets murdered too,

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Speaker 2: and the driver gets murdered one. So I'm familiar with

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Speaker 2: all of those cases. But I just it was only

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Speaker 2: the figure that struck me. If only you know our

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Speaker 2: professional sports teams could have a winning percentage of seven sixty,

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Speaker 2: I would be delighted. It just seemed to be a

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Speaker 2: very high number. Governor, you've had a long day. I

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Speaker 2: very much appreciate you coming on tonight, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's important for people to hear this in your own voice.

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Speaker 2: Hope to have your be back again. We're not We

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Speaker 2: don't always agree, as I'm sure you know, but I'd

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Speaker 2: love to have you back at times when we agree

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Speaker 2: and maybe even sometimes we disagree. Okay, I really that'd

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Speaker 2: be wonderful.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, and thank you for also giving me the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to, you know, just just again say how grateful

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Speaker 1: I am to men and women who are willing to

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Speaker 1: serve and become police officers, and I encourage more people

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Speaker 1: to consider that as a career. I think it's a

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Speaker 1: career that's just provides incredible, you know, fulfillment. And I

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Speaker 1: was at the State Police graduation ceremony left last week

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Speaker 1: in Springfield and you know, just really pumped to see.

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Speaker 1: I think we had about one hundred and fifteen graduates,

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Speaker 1: you know, who had emerged from the academy and are

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Speaker 1: now going to be out protecting and serving the commonwealth.

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Speaker 1: So I'm grateful for that, and you know, my prayers

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Speaker 1: are with every with it with families of law enforcement today,

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Speaker 1: tonight and tomorrow, because you know, we want them to

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Speaker 1: be safe and and we know that unfortunately, you know,

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Speaker 1: bad things happen.

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Speaker 2: Well again, hopefully your words have been heard by everyone

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Speaker 2: across the common wealth and that maybe maybe there will

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Speaker 2: be some one young or old who will decide to

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Speaker 2: refrain from doing damage to a police officer and as

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Speaker 2: as they try to protect all of us so we

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Speaker 2: can sleep sleep soundly at night. Governor, I'm sure it

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Speaker 2: needs some sleep after a very long day. Thank you

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Speaker 2: very much for your time tonight has always and I

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Speaker 2: hope to talk with you soon.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Dan, take care.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Massachusetts Governor more heally talking about

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Speaker 2: her decision to uphose strongly the parole request for this

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Speaker 2: man Jose Cologne, who appeared today at a Pearl hearing

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Speaker 2: in Natick. I'd like to get your reaction. Six one, seven, two, five,

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Speaker 2: four ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty.

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Speaker 2: Feel free to join the conversation here on Night Side.

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Speaker 2: My name is Dan Ray. If you want to commend

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Speaker 2: the governor, she took a very public position, which I

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Speaker 2: think is the very exactly the correct position. If you

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Speaker 2: disagree with her from whatever perspective and you want to comment,

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Speaker 2: you're welcome to do that as well. Again, I appreciate

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Speaker 2: the fact that she joined us tonight, and I hope

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Speaker 2: that we will have her on in the not too

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Speaker 2: distant future, and maybe on a different issue and an

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Speaker 2: issue we might disagree on. But I commend her across

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Speaker 2: the board for the very important letter that she wrote

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Speaker 2: to the pro Board and which was taken into consideration today.

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Speaker 2: Back on Nightside, you have the numbers, give us a

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Speaker 2: call right after this. It's Night Side with.

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Speaker 1: Boston's News Radio.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Ben Parker. Let us go to the phones,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to start off with police officer from Tampa, Florida. Dan,

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Speaker 2: former police officer in Tampa, Florida. Dan, Welcome to Nightside.

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Speaker 2: You are first this hour and Nightside. Thanks for checking in.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Hi Dan. First of all, I never thought i'd

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Speaker 3: call you show to tell you how much I agree

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Speaker 3: with the governor. But she's one hundred percent correct. This

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Speaker 3: is a heinous crime and this guy has to stay

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Speaker 3: behind bars. You know, we did an old saying, don't

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Speaker 3: do the crime if we can do the time. So

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Speaker 3: I'm glad she took that that stand. And Uh, I hope,

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Speaker 3: I hope it helps, and I hope the public outcry

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Speaker 3: about this guy getting out helps, and hope he stay

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Speaker 3: where it belongs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I was surprised somewhat. Again,

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Speaker 2: she had been the attorney general here in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 4: But.

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Speaker 2: She did not have to take such a public position

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Speaker 2: on this. Uh. But but she did. Uh. If you

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Speaker 2: read the the articles in the Herald yesterday, in the

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Speaker 2: Globe today, a very strong language, you know. In the

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Speaker 2: in the year Old yesterday, for example, she wrote, Trooper

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Speaker 2: Hannah's family has continued to honor his legacy. In a

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Speaker 2: deeply tangible way. His daughter's Deborah and Kimberly still present

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Speaker 2: the awards in his name, keeping their father's memory central

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Speaker 2: to the Comwealth's recognition of courage and dedication and law

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Speaker 2: enforcement for the past ten years. I personally this is

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Speaker 2: the governor writing now. I personally sat with Deborah and

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Speaker 2: Kimberly at the Hannah Awards ceremony and have witnessed the

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Speaker 2: pain they continue to endure because of their father's brutal murder.

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Speaker 2: They were both at the hearing today in Natick and

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Speaker 2: they both spoke in opposition to parole. I was surprised

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Speaker 2: there were two hundred. This decision came down when the

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Speaker 2: death penalty was outlawed in Massachusetts many years ago. It

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Speaker 2: was the argument was, the death penalty is too good

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Speaker 2: for people who commit first degree murder. They make them

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Speaker 2: spend the rest of the life lives in prison. Well,

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Speaker 2: the death penalty has gone, and now there's this continued

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Speaker 2: push to say, well, you know, if they were and

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Speaker 2: they used the phrase emerging adult, if at eighteen, nineteen

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Speaker 2: or twenty, if they were under twenty one and they

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Speaker 2: were an emerging adult, they could not be given a

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Speaker 2: life sentence. Life in prison without parole sentence here in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: So this guy now at the age of sixty three

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Speaker 2: is eligible that he never thought because of our state

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Speaker 2: Supreme Court. I didn't want to get into the to

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Speaker 2: the background to the story with the governor on that

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Speaker 2: because I thought it was most important to get the

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Speaker 2: message out that this guy above all should not be paroled.

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Speaker 2: But you know, Dan, they've had fifty two cases of

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Speaker 2: first degree murderers and seventy six percent of them have

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Speaker 2: already been paroled. That's that's a pretty high percentage in

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Speaker 2: my opinion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely scary here in Florida. And I've lost

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Speaker 3: quite a few colleagues to being killed in wine of duty,

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Speaker 3: some many of them were friends of mine, and this

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Speaker 3: horrible experience and it's even worter for the family and

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Speaker 3: the community never goes away. But yeah, and well, Florida,

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Speaker 3: we've got different sentencing laws and different views on capital punishment.

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Speaker 3: So I don't think that would be a conversation we

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Speaker 3: will be having here in Florida of bus logs land

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Speaker 3: in Florida. I don't quite buy the completely not developed

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Speaker 3: yet age, you know, as an la maybe if you

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Speaker 3: were like five or six years old. You know, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I can I can see that. Yeah, but you're a

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Speaker 3: young adult.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but when you're twenty years old and you're going

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Speaker 2: to Robert Licostow with a couple of Confederates and you

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Speaker 2: pulled over by a police officer and six five people

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Speaker 2: get out of the car and someone then executes a

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Speaker 2: police officer. I think the Governor's absolutely right here, and

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Speaker 2: I commend her for her action. And I'm sure that

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Speaker 2: there are people who will disagree with me and and

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Speaker 2: disagree with her, but I'm so glad you were the

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Speaker 2: first to call tonight. Dan, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: Thanks Dan, talk to you soon.

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Speaker 2: Good night. Let me go next to Jennifer down in

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Speaker 2: the Cape in Harwichport. Hey, Jennifer, how are you tonight?

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Speaker 5: I'm good, Jan How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing just fine, Go right ahead.

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Speaker 5: Well, I was just going to say thank you very

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Speaker 5: much for having Governor healing on. I mean, she was

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Speaker 5: amazing and I'm so much I'm fully in support of

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Speaker 5: what she's doing, you know.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So you're you're you're a fan of the governor

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Speaker 2: and you appreciate. In addition, you know, I have agreements

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Speaker 2: and disagreements with the Governor but I there is some

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Speaker 2: who who would be upset from her from one side

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Speaker 2: and some who would be upset from her from the

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Speaker 2: other from another side. So you're a Healy supporter, but

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Speaker 2: you're glad that she took this position as publicly as

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Speaker 2: she did.

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Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, I mean it's it's crazy to think, you know,

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Speaker 5: I'll be I didn't realize that until you just gave

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Speaker 5: the you know, the statistics how many people are getting

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Speaker 5: out on parole.

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Speaker 2: You know that's well, this is the There are two

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Speaker 2: hundred people in prison who have a life sentence with

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Speaker 2: all parole who are eligible now for a parole hearing

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Speaker 2: because they were emerging results. That's the phrase that the

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Speaker 2: court used, which to me is a euphemism. And I

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Speaker 2: think that the fact that of the first fifty two cases,

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Speaker 2: thirty nine have been given parole, that's a seventy six

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Speaker 2: percent rate of parole. That's a very high number. Now,

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Speaker 2: if you extrapolate that number in the first fifty two

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Speaker 2: case to the rest of the two hundred, which is

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Speaker 2: about one hundred and fifty more cases, you're talking about

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Speaker 2: as upwards of one hundred and fifty people who have

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Speaker 2: been convicted to life in prison. Without the possibility of parole,

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Speaker 2: who will be walking the streets of Massachusetts.

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Speaker 5: Right, and you wonder, you know, what crimes have these

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Speaker 5: people have committed, you know, to get out on parole.

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Speaker 5: I mean, to let this person go out on parole, who's,

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Speaker 5: as you said, you know, committed a heinous crime. I mean,

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Speaker 5: good God, I mean, what are we doing well that

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Speaker 5: you could.

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Speaker 2: Have cases that, you know, as the governor alluded to,

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Speaker 2: a felony murder where two people are going to go

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Speaker 2: rob a store and one guy walks in and the

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Speaker 2: guy's driving the getaway car and he doesn't know what

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Speaker 2: goes on, and the guy runs out and he tells

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Speaker 2: him I had to shoot the clerk, and he kills

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Speaker 2: the clerk. That's what's called felony murder. Once you're involved

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Speaker 2: in a felony, you know you're in for everything that happened,

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Speaker 2: even though you had nothing to do with it. So

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Speaker 2: you could have a case like that. Maybe under these circumstances,

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Speaker 2: well you might be able to look at that a

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Speaker 2: little differently. But most of these cases, when it's murder

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Speaker 2: in the first degree, I'm here to tell you, Jennifer,

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Speaker 2: they're cold blooded murders.

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Speaker 5: Oh absolutely, I agree with you, and those people should

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Speaker 5: never be allowed to get parole number. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 5: I don't even care if it's a sellity murder. I

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Speaker 5: mean people that commit a murder. Sorry, your life behind bars.

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Speaker 2: Well well again now, because of this court decision called

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Speaker 2: the Madness decision, which took place a year ago, our

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Speaker 2: state Supreme Court, which is seven people, seven court members,

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Speaker 2: have found that a life without parole sentence for someone

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Speaker 2: under the age of twenty one is unconstitutional and that

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Speaker 2: is why they are now getting parole hearings. If convicted

434
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 2: from murder in Massachusetts and you're connected, you're convicted of

435
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 2: murder in the second degree, you get life in prison,

436
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 2: but with parole eligibility in fifteen years. So it's a

437
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: big difference between life in prison without parole and life

438
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: in prison with the possibility of parole in fifteen years.

439
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: If you're a twenty year old kid, you could say, well,

440
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: if I can do fifteen years and behave myself, I

441
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 2: might be out at the age of thirty five or

442
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: thirty six. But if you're convicted for murder, if in

443
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: the past you're under twenty one and you were convicted

444
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 2: from murder in the first degree. You're never going to

445
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: see the light of day. That was. That's what murder

446
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: in the first degree was the sentence here in Massachusetts.

447
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 5: So right, well, my question to you is, I mean,

448
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 5: if I do find that this person is eligible for parole,

449
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 5: to Governor fasly go look above the board and say

450
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 5: absolutely non pieces no, no.

451
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 2: No, because they will do it under the authority of

452
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: the state Supreme Court decision, the maddest decision of last January.

453
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 2: All the governor can do at this point, as the

454
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: governor is express her opinion on my show tonight, but

455
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,199
Speaker 2: also more importantly in the letter that she sent to

456
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 2: the parle board, I hope the parole board. You know,

457
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 2: first of all, the parole board should, under no circumstances

458
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 2: give this guy parole because of the way in which

459
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: he killed a police officer. He executed a police officer.

460
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 2: He shot the police officers six times at close range.

461
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 2: This is this was not some guy who was who

462
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: pulled over and was in a struggle for a gun

463
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: and the gun went off. No, no, no, no. But

464
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: I think it's important for the governor to have taken

465
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 2: such a public position in this case.

466
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 5: In my mind, oh, I definitely agree, and I hope

467
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,120
Speaker 5: that you know the parle board does not issue parole

468
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 5: to this person at all.

469
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 2: I mean, couldn't agree with you more. Jennifer is always

470
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 2: a but it's a cold night down in the Cape tonight,

471
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: so stay warmed. Yes, thanks Jennifer, talk to.

472
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 5: You soon, Okay, have a great night.

473
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: Good night, good night. We'll take a quick break. We'll

474
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,920
Speaker 2: be right back. I have one line at six one seven,

475
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,879
Speaker 2: two five four ten thirty and one line at six

476
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: one seven nine three one ten thirty. I'm more than

477
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: happy to carry this into the next hour because they

478
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 2: think it's important to have heard what the governor had

479
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 2: to say tonight. I'm grateful that she came on, and

480
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for the position that she took. And I

481
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 2: suspect that police families around this commonwealth are grateful as well.

482
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 2: So I would love to hear from whatever your perspective.

483
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 2: We'll be back on Nightside. It's Night Side with Dan Ray,

484
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: Boston's news Radio. The calls we go. We're gonna go

485
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 2: next to Susan and Salem, Massachusetts. Susan, We've got full lines.

486
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 2: You go right ahead. Appreciate your patience. You were next

487
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: on nightside.

488
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 4: Hi, Dan, I didn't know a thing about this case

489
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 4: at all except for our walking by the TV late

490
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 4: this afternoon. A news show was on and I heard

491
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 4: a man saying, he told me to do it, And

492
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 4: I thought, uh God, what is this? Under more common circumstances,

493
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 4: anyone who kills an officer officer doesn't deserve parole. But

494
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 4: I think you know how kids idolize other family members,

495
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 4: and and that was this a family member that told

496
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 4: him to shoot this officer.

497
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: I believe that that that's what he testified too, that

498
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: there was some cousin of his. But it matters not

499
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 2: to me. It matters the result. And when you when

500
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: you kill a police officer, and particularly in the way

501
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: in which when you kill any police officer. Yeah, I

502
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: have no I have no forgiveness in my heart. Let

503
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: let him deal with the Good Lord when the time comes,

504
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: and maybe the good Lord will will forgive him. I

505
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 2: don't have that authority and the governor. And the governor

506
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: is a pretty reasonable person. Some might argue he's much

507
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: more reasonable than I am, particularly on issues of prime

508
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: and punishment. I'm a little influenced by it that I

509
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: have family members who served as police officers, state troopers.

510
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: And you know, I don't care if if he heard

511
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: voices or or I, or if or if his mother

512
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: told him to do it. He's twenty years old, he's

513
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: an adult. He doesn't have to.

514
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 4: Show it was twenty. Well, that's pretty old. But I

515
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 4: don't know kids idolized people. I shouldn't at twenty.

516
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: I don't think you're a kid. I don't think you

517
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: were a kid. There are people who you know, who

518
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: you know whatever. But so would you parole him, Susan

519
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: if you were in the pro board.

520
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 4: No, I would. I would have to know a lot

521
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 4: more than I do, which is nothing except hearing his Well,

522
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 4: we'll talk.

523
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: We will talk more about this tonight. And I appreciate

524
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: that you took the time to call. And you know,

525
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 2: the law in Massachusetts when he did this, and for

526
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 2: the last forty two years of his confinement has been

527
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: once you get life in prison without parole, that's it.

528
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: There's no parole. That's murder one. Murder II is life

529
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,360
Speaker 2: imprisonment in prison with the possibility of parole in fifteen years.

530
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: That's murder two. He got convicted, and there's about two

531
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: hundred other people who are convicted of heinous crimes. To

532
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: be convicted of murder, one, it has to be a

533
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: pretty heinous crime. It isn't an active passion. It isn't

534
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 2: a street fight where two guys get into a beef

535
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: on the street and all of a sudden. It can

536
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 2: be something as like felony murder where you can make

537
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,719
Speaker 2: that argument, but not in this case where he fires

538
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: six shots at close range.

539
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 4: Definitely a heinous situation. So I'm not an expert on

540
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 4: mental health either.

541
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: No, you know, I don't know that the experts on

542
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: mental health experts on mental health. If you get what

543
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: I'm saying, Thanks, thank you very much.

544
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 4: I just think it should be considered.

545
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, well we can agree to disagree. And I

546
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 2: thank you for calling you.

547
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 4: Welcome.

548
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, good night. Let me go next to

549
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 2: Maggie and Lowell. Maggie, you were next on NIGHTSACER.

550
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 6: Right ahead, Hi, Hi Dan, Happy new year.

551
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: Right back at your Happy New Year to you, Maggie.

552
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

553
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 6: I call it because I am a family for the

554
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 6: military service. My daughter is in the Navy's congress.

555
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: Thank her for all of us.

556
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 6: Yeah, and she is in the medical unit. She is

557
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 6: Americal combat And then and then I put my shoes

558
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 6: in this family, I know what they're suffering. And then

559
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 6: and yeah, I I have also the thing because my

560
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 6: daughter isn't lighting duty all the time. And then I

561
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 6: know how I feel. You know two uh, you know,

562
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 6: being holding and and be conscious that when you are

563
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 6: serving to the nation, when you're serving to the to

564
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 6: the state, you are into uh you know, life and death.

565
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 6: You you that that's that's the thing about being a

566
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 6: police officers in the military duty too. So one thing

567
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 6: I notice things I have been a military family, is

568
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 6: that in the and the when you are confortment. You know,

569
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 6: when you are in jail, what I see because I

570
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 6: see I have friends and you know and and knows

571
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 6: that the the in the jail system they're not doing

572
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 6: to prepare these people when these people need to be out.

573
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 6: I don't see there are prepared to be outside on

574
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 6: the street because most of the cases I see that

575
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 6: when they are going out, they starting doing the same

576
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 6: thing that they did when they get into it.

577
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 2: To Gill, I think you're right on that that is

578
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 2: a different subject, but an important subject. And when we

579
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: talk about that somenight, I want you to call in

580
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: and we can follow up on on our conversation, but

581
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 2: I got to get a couple more calls in before

582
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: the hour is up. Maggie, have you called me before?

583
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: Is this your first time calling?

584
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 6: Is it my first time calling you?

585
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: Well, we want to thank you for calling. We're looking

586
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: forward to calling number two. And please do us a

587
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: favor and specifically tell you daughter that you talk to

588
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: Dan Ray and on behalf of all my nightside listeners.

589
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 2: We thank her for her service to our country.

590
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 6: Okay, thank you, guys. I will appreciate it, and then

591
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 6: I will left it.

592
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: Thank you, Maggie, I appreciate it very much. Thank you.

593
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: Let me go next to Bill in Pennsylvania. Bill, you

594
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 2: were next on Nightsiger right.

595
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 7: Ahead, Hey Dan, Yeah, congratulations to the governor for coming

596
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 7: on Dan Ray show. So, uh, when they do get out,

597
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 7: when you do release one hundred and fifty or whatever,

598
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 7: keep them up in Massachusetts, all right, don't run across

599
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 7: the borders and come down here to Pennsylvania and tell

600
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 7: people that you can't.

601
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 2: I hope not.

602
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 7: I certainly no, no, me too. But listen, we had

603
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 7: a governor here about fourteen years ago. Governor, Okay, just

604
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 7: the governor just says we're gonna put a moratorium on

605
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 7: h on the death penalty. And so we've had a

606
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 7: moral toorium on the death penealty since then.

607
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 2: Wow, which governor?

608
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 7: Which what's happened?

609
00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: When? Which governor was that? If you recall Governor Wolf

610
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: Oh all right, okay, remember him? Yep, Okay.

611
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 7: Anyways, and we've got a terrible Supreme court here in

612
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 7: the state of Pennsylvania. They do it. They do exactly

613
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 7: what what your Supreme Court did up there. But and

614
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 7: I understand that that the governor doesn't have any recourse.

615
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 7: That's terrible. But you look at what's happening up up

616
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 7: in Minnesota right now, Dan, the Ice guys, Okay, there's

617
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 7: other agencies in there. They've taken thirteen hundred hardcore criminals,

618
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 7: some of them murders, but they've taken them off the

619
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 7: streets and the people up there. Okay. One side up there,

620
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 7: of course, is saying defund the Ice.

621
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, And we're going to talk about that later bill.

622
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 2: But that's a little off topic on this on this point.

623
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 7: Let me just let me just go ahead, go ahead.

624
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: I just wanted to point that out and remind you

625
00:36:56,239 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: that the majority he's not built just let me say

626
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 2: one thing, Bill, It is not the majority of people

627
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: in Minnesota who are out there hassling the ice officers.

628
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: But go ahead. You wanted to make another point.

629
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 7: Okay, if I lived, if I lived in Boston right now,

630
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 7: and I wonder somebody killed, Okay, all I'm gonna do

631
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 7: is go out. I'm gonna find a gang member that

632
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 7: that's twenty years old or younger, and I'm going to

633
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 7: give them, I don't know, two thousand bucks and I'll say,

634
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 7: knock this person off. That's what they've done, all right.

635
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 7: They've made it that easy for me to go find

636
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 7: a killer up there.

637
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't agree with you necessarily.

638
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 2: I think you have to pay a lot more than that.

639
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: But I understand the point you're making that a young

640
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 2: a person under the age of twenty one, you could

641
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,479
Speaker 2: convince that person, particularly if they're not the brightest belb

642
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: on the tree, that they would not have to spend

643
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: the rest of their life in prison. Bill, I got

644
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: to run. I got you in before the new, before

645
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: the nine o'clock news. I got to run.

646
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 7: Leader, the leader of the gangs will use that to

647
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:57,879
Speaker 7: get a hit man.

648
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: Maybe, maybe, Thank you. Bill, appreciate your call, all right.

649
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: If you'd like to continue to talk about this, you

650
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: have the number six one, seven, two, five four ten thirty,

651
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Speaker 2: six one seven nine three one ten thirty. If you

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Speaker 2: want to react to what the governor said, what I believe,

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Speaker 2: Tell me what you believe. Back on Night's side after

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Speaker 2: the ten o'clock news