1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Eight oh five, ifik I have KRCD Talk Station, a 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: very happy Wednesday to I have been looking forward to 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: this moment in time since I got here in the 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,559 Speaker 1: morning show to find out that Tom Clavin is on 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: the rundown. He's joined the program right now to talk 6 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: about his new book. By way of background, you probably 7 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: already know him, best selling author of twenty five let 8 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: Me Underscore the Word non fiction books on military history, 9 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: sports and entertainment. His writing career began in journalism as 10 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: a rover reporter for The New York Times fifteen years, 11 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: as well as contributed to multiple national magazines, awarded numerous 12 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: prizes by the Society of Professional Journalists National Newspaper Association. 13 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: His books multiple award winners, including six that made it 14 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: to the New York Times Bestseller He has written several screenplays, 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: including a couple of his books that are currently being 16 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: developed as screen projects. And I'm guessing Tom Claven welcome 17 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: that this book we're talking about this morning is going 18 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: to be number three. I want to see a movie 19 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: about this running Deep Bravery's Survival and the true story 20 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: of the deadliest submarine in World War I to Tom, 21 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: it's a pleasure to have you on the program. 22 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me back on the show. 23 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,479 Speaker 2: And I agree it would make a terrific movie. 24 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 3: Oh, terrific story. So to begin with. 25 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: It's insane. And you know right now there is a 26 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: man in my listening audience, a dear friend of mine, 27 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: a career submariner, spent his entire career in the military 28 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: and submarines. And Mike is out there sitting on the 29 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: edge of a seat. You've already sold one book, I 30 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: assure you, Tom, And he knew about this boat. He 31 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: knew about the Captain Richard Okaine, which is featured in 32 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: the book. So let's dive on into it. You described 33 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: this is the deadliest submarine in World War Two. 34 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:35,399 Speaker 3: So like. 35 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: Pilots get kills and they can become you know, certain 36 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: levels of pilots an ace. For example, this sub sunk 37 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: more vessels than any of the other in the entire 38 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: World War Two. 39 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: It did it did? 40 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 2: It is the USS Tang and it was the best 41 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: attack submarine the US had in the Pacific theater. And 42 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: it sank thirty three Japanese ships and what have sunk 43 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 2: except it ran into it, you know, ran into an 44 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: entire convoy that was trying to take out. It proved 45 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 2: to be a little too much, but the Tang was 46 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 2: was the most recognized. And I'm glad you mentioned about 47 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: your friend who knows about Richard o'caine, because amongst some 48 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: mariners there seems to be a recognition of Ocaine and 49 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 2: he's like the Navy equivalent of Vaudie Murphy. 50 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 3: Yes, but to the general public they don't. 51 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 2: They've never heard of the guy, which is which is 52 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: a shame because he was great Guite, the heroic character 53 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 2: in World War Two. 54 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I wait to you here. We'll get a 55 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: brief little sliver of the excitement that these men were 56 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: involved with on the submarine. But Mike wanted you and 57 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: meet to know my listening honience is going to pass along. 58 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: There was a street named after the Tang in Groton, 59 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: Connecticut at the submarine base, and the CEO there, Richard 60 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: Dick o'caine is also apparently they have a officers quarters 61 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: named after him on the sub bay. So everyone in 62 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: the Navy knows who this guy is. Let's talk about 63 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: some of the action they First off, what was life 64 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: like in a World War two submarine? I can't imagine 65 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: it was fun. 66 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 3: No, it wasn't. 67 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: And in fact, you can only volunteer for submarine duty. 68 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: You cannot be assigned to it because it was It 69 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: was not only very cramped and very tight quarters. If 70 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: you're claustrophobic, you were sunk, you can say, but it 71 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: was dangerous. 72 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 3: It was. 73 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: You know, the mortality rate for a submarine sailor was 74 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: six times that of a surface ship sailor, so that 75 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: we lost fifty two boats was sunk during World War two, 76 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: and so there was a lot of a lot of 77 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: the Navy guys they said nothing to do with submarines, but. 78 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 3: They turned out to be especially effective. 79 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 2: And the tang was was head and shoulders above the 80 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: other submarines and being able to hunt down and sink 81 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: Japanese shipping. 82 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: Well, you're right about psychological profile to serve on a submarine, 83 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: I personally would not pass that test. The idea of 84 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: it's less about claustrophobia, Tom, but the idea of depth 85 00:03:57,560 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: charges exploding around you at any moment in time, you 86 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: might I implode and sink to the bottom of the sea, 87 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about here in a minute. 88 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you could be bonds, you'd be sailing on 89 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: the surface and a plane spots you. 90 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 3: It could bother you. 91 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: You could be underwater and a depth charges like you said, 92 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: could come and get you. There could be a malfunction. 93 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: And the thing is when a submarine is in danger 94 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: of sinking and it goes under the water, there's no 95 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: way to go. I mean, one of the things about 96 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: it. If you want to destroyer or a battleship or an 97 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: aircraft carrier and it's damaged, you have the option of 98 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,680 Speaker 2: getting into a lifeboat or if you need to jump 99 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: overboard and hold on to something. In a submarine, there's 100 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: no jumping overboard. There's no way out. So that's another 101 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 2: reason why it was especially risky and tension film way of. 102 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 3: Serving the Navy. 103 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: Well, you go into great detail about this and then 104 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: let's fast forward and obviously I don't want a huge 105 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: reveal on this, but it's so exciting conceptually. This is 106 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: the book selling moment right here, at this moment in time, 107 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: Tom Clayville. Let's fast forward to October twenty fourth, nineteen 108 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: forty four. 109 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 2: Yes, eighty one years ago, this Friday, and the tang 110 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,560 Speaker 2: is in the Foremosa Strait, which is off the coast 111 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 2: of China and it encounters an entire Japanese convoy. Now, 112 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: some submarines were operated in packs, were one submarine, but 113 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: the tank was always a kind of a lone wolf. 114 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: It was by itself. Saw this convoy, it couldn't let 115 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,720 Speaker 2: it pass pass through. So an attack that took out 116 00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: an entire convoy. It was actually destroying it when it 117 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: fired its last torpedo, which boomerang came back and struck 118 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 2: the tang. It sank to aundred. It came to the 119 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: rest of the bottom a hundred and eighty feet. The 120 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: captain and some of the crew members rightaged to survive. 121 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: It's a really exciting sequence to tell you out of 122 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: the boat. Okay, there's a lot of process here. They 123 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: were sunk by their own torpedo. I didn't even know 124 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 2: that was a concept, tom. I guess we're happy we 125 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: have more modern technology that can't happen anymore. 126 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 3: Well. 127 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: One of the reveals I think of Running Deep is 128 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 2: how how inadequate. 129 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 3: A lot of our torpedoes were. I mean, when you. 130 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: Watch a movie about World War Two and somebody fires 131 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 2: a torp, you know it always hits the target, but 132 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: a lot of times too often, and where we're to 133 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 2: the reality was that that torpedoes would explode too early, 134 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: they would be completely duds, and they can boomerang. They 135 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 2: could the gyroscope would go crazy and they would come 136 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: around as in case of the tank, and strike the 137 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 2: tank in the stern. It sank stern first. A lot 138 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: of the guys and the boat were killed, but some 139 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: managed to escape and get to the surface where you know, 140 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 2: they went from the frying pan to the fire because 141 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: they were rescued by Japanese sailors who weren't too happy 142 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 2: about the submarine that I just destroyed a lot of 143 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 2: the shipping. 144 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: No, I imagine not so they sink one hundred and eighty 145 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: feet down. Eighty seven total crew men were on this submarine, 146 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 1: which again I'm trying to struggle with the reality of 147 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: the living conditions in this tightest space with eighty seven 148 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 1: but nine and manages to get to the surface. Can 149 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: I just say a screw briefly, how the hell do 150 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: you get from one hundred and eighty feet down in 151 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: a sealed container to get to the surface. 152 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: Well, you know, there are two or three the captain 153 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 2: and a couple of guys were on the bridge when 154 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 2: the torpedo hits. They were thrown into the water, but 155 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: there were six others that down below that. They had 156 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: this device called the bombson lung which was invented right 157 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: before the war, which you put it on and it's 158 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: sort of like it's not a scuba diving kind of thing, 159 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: and so that's just a little inflatable thing. But the 160 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 2: idea was they could give you enough oxygen to give 161 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: you a chance to get to the surface. And so 162 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 2: that's what these guys did. They put any Bobson lungs 163 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: they got into it the escape chamber, they would push 164 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: down into the water and they headed for the surface. 165 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: Some made it, some did not. 166 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: Now I have to ask you, are these like parachutes. 167 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: Every of the eighty every one of the eighty seven 168 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 1: crewmen had one of the us to use. 169 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: Well, they were on board. 170 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 3: Let's put it that way. Life preservers. 171 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: You didn't bother or even think about them until you 172 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: ably absolutely need them and hoped they would work. It 173 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: was like one was issued to every sailor was hopefully 174 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 2: in the escape chamber. 175 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 3: You'd find them available, all right. 176 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: So when they make it to the top, the remaining 177 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: nine survivors and nine survivors. They were in fact captured 178 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: by the Japanese and placed in what you describe in 179 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: the book as a torture can camp. 180 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, torture camp because they they were considered almost like 181 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: terrorists because they preyed on civilian shipping, which you know, 182 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: like the Japanese equivalent of the Virgin Marine, and so 183 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: they were in the brutal conditions very similar to what 184 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: the book Unbroken. 185 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 3: In fact, Louis Zamparini, he was the hero of. 186 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 2: The book Unbroken, was one of Captain o'caine's fellow officers 187 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: at this particular torture camp. And O'Kane was a particular 188 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: target because let's once they found out he was a 189 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: captain of the submarine that had destroyed more shipping, more 190 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: of their boats than any ships than any of the submarine. 191 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 2: They really had it out for him and he barely 192 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 2: survived when to the camp. 193 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:40,599 Speaker 3: We liberated home on. 194 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: I bet he was a target of some serious abuse, sir, 195 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: I truly believe. Oh yeah, well, and he did, I guess, 196 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: ultimately earn the highest award of the land, the Medal 197 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: of Honor, as well as other decorations. Was it for 198 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: his service obviously on the Tang, but it was because 199 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,599 Speaker 1: of this particular operation where they sung so many of 200 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: this Japanese fleet. Is that the basis for his receiving 201 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: the Medal of Honor. 202 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 2: Well, I should point out that that Rizie O'Kane was 203 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 2: like the Audie Murphy of the US Navy. He was 204 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: the most decorated naval officer of World War Two. So 205 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: he had already been recognized for his service for operating, 206 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: being the captain of this terrific effective submarine. 207 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,160 Speaker 3: But I think what got in the Medal of Honor is. 208 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: That during his captivity in the torture camp, he endured, 209 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: and he got his men to endure, he got others 210 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: to endure. He was really an inspiration that he would 211 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 2: basically I almost call this book Undefeated. 212 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: He refused to be defeated. 213 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 2: By no matter what the Japanese hold out to him, 214 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: and I think that helped other people survive terrific conditions. 215 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: So I think the Medal of Honor was moreferent for 216 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 2: his survival and the survival of others. 217 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,439 Speaker 1: Wow, and a great lesson to be learned for us 218 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: who struggle with you know, a fraction of the day 219 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: to day challenges that he struggled with. You know, inspiration 220 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: can be derived from a man who walked out of 221 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: a torture camp at ninety pounds after being subjected to 222 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: that abuse. That's truly, truly something be said, Tom claven. 223 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, did you have in doing 224 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: your research for this? Did you have access to diaries 225 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: or personal accounts by the people who served on the 226 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: ship on the submarine. Where did you come up with 227 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:12,599 Speaker 1: the information to understand these day to day conditions and 228 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: what they went through. 229 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad you mention that, because they when the 230 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: survivors of the tank got back to the United States 231 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: and once they recovered enough physically from their various injuries, 232 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: they were all debriefed. And there's also all histories at 233 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: the World War Two Center Museum in New Orleans. Richard 234 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 2: o'caine years later, which is it's been very interesting, he 235 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: wrote a book called Clear the Bridge about his experiences 236 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: as a tank captain, but he only devoted two pages 237 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: to his a year long incarceration in the torture camp. 238 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,199 Speaker 2: Like even years later, he couldn't he couldn't bear to 239 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: write about it. There are other officers that kept diaries 240 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: so yes, there was, thankfully lucky for me, a lot 241 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: of archivro material to draw from. 242 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: How did I'd never heard of the tank obviously didn't 243 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: serve in the military, most notably Navy on a submarine 244 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: like Mike did. But how did you learn personally of 245 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: the tang and Richard O'Kaine to write this book? Because 246 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: this is yet another, as far as I know, untold 247 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: story coming out of World War Two. It's twenty twenty five. 248 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: You'd think we'd have heard all of this by now, Tom. 249 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: Exactly how could there still be a story we don't 250 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: know about? But again, I was researching something else and 251 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: I stumbled upon and I mentioned of Audio Murphy comparing 252 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 2: him to Richard O'Kaine because of being the most decorated officers. 253 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:30,559 Speaker 2: I've never heard of this guy. Most people have heard 254 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 2: of Audio Murphy because he went on to become a 255 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 2: Hollywood star and made movies. 256 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:34,360 Speaker 3: Right like that. 257 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 2: But Richard O'Cain, who. 258 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 3: The heck is that? You know? A guy whom born 259 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: in New Hampshire and he became one of the most 260 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 3: decorated officer of the Maybe. 261 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: So that's how I sort of stumbled upon it, and 262 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: it was one of those things where I just kept 263 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 2: peeling back layers and finding more information and more information 264 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: found out about the Tang. How can nobody noticed it? 265 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: About the Tang and the most effective submarine in World 266 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: War Two? So the more I learned, the more I realized, 267 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: this is just an incredible story. And thankfully it's not 268 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 2: been told for a mainstream of money. It's until Running Deep. 269 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: That's why we have you, Tom Claven doing it time 270 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: after time after time. Twenty five non fiction books. I 271 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: guess does this make it twenty six or is this 272 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: number twenty five? 273 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: You know, I'm like Jack Benny who never got past 274 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: age thirty nine. I had twenty five books. 275 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 3: That's this my story. I'm sticking to it. 276 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: There you go. Congratulations on the winning of the New 277 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: York Times Bestseller. Another one. We're going to talk about 278 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 1: six New York Times bestsellers. Everyone's going to want to 279 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: get a copy of Running Deep, Bravery Survival and the 280 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: True Story of the Deadliest Submarine of World War Two. Tom, 281 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: It's always a pleasure talking with you. Keep up the 282 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: great work, and I know my listener is going to 283 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: grab up a copy of this. We've already got on 284 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 1: my blog page at fifty five kros dot com to 285 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: make it really easy for them to do that.