WEBVTT - 1-30-26 Sloan with George Reul

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<v Speaker 1>Sold me here on seven hundred WLW.

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<v Speaker 2>We know that your employer can punish you for things

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<v Speaker 2>you post on social media. Play stupid games when stupid

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<v Speaker 2>prizes happens all the time, But what about when it's

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<v Speaker 2>a work related safety issue. So this guy, Jason Thompson,

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<v Speaker 2>he's a twenty year plus USPS mail carrier and Fairfield

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<v Speaker 2>suspend without pay because he posted safety concerns on social

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<v Speaker 2>about winter storm conditions on Facebook.

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<v Speaker 1>They made me show up. And the narrative of the

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<v Speaker 1>story is really quick.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that he shows up to work and notice that

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<v Speaker 2>the lots are poor ploy I don't want to say that,

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<v Speaker 2>they're not plowed really well. And the postal trucks are

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<v Speaker 2>bared in snow. They said, hey, there's no packages here

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<v Speaker 2>to the lever because of the storm. But you've got

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<v Speaker 2>to dig your cars out by hand. We don't have

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<v Speaker 2>shovels or anything for you, but yeah, get in there

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<v Speaker 2>and start. You lean into it, get onto your hands

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<v Speaker 2>and knees and shovel off these trucks that aren't going

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<v Speaker 2>to run anyway. And there's nowhere to put the snow

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a mess. And yeah, now he's sixty years

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<v Speaker 2>old and The end result is, well, we hear people

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<v Speaker 2>having heart attacks all the time because of this. Is

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<v Speaker 2>that in the scope of his job? And he would say, no,

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<v Speaker 2>it's uh, they made cuts and can't have anyone come

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<v Speaker 2>and properly clean off the vehicle so we can do

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<v Speaker 2>our jobs. And he bitched about it on Facebook, the

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<v Speaker 2>age old American sport of complaining about your boss. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>it led him to an unpaid suspension. The question is

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<v Speaker 2>is he a whistleblower and is he protected? And what

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<v Speaker 2>are your rights if you run into something like this?

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<v Speaker 2>George Rule is here. He is the first and foremost

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<v Speaker 2>the employment law attorney in Cincinnati with freaking Myers and

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<v Speaker 2>rule George, welcome back, How are you?

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<v Speaker 1>How's life?

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<v Speaker 3>Son? Hey, Sonny, thanks for having me on. I'm well

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<v Speaker 3>than you.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I don't think you guys are involved. Maybe you

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<v Speaker 2>guys are involved with this case. I don't know. But

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<v Speaker 2>does this fall into the guys of whistleblower complaints? And

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<v Speaker 2>you know he puts it up on social media about

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<v Speaker 2>safety conditions? Is that qualified? The safety issues? Complying is

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<v Speaker 2>whistleblower activity? And keep in mind this is federal law

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<v Speaker 2>and he works for a federal agency.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Uh.

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<v Speaker 4>Generally speaking, whistle blowing activity usually involves an employee disclosing

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<v Speaker 4>information that they reasonably believe is evidence of illegal, unethical,

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<v Speaker 4>or unsafe activity. Uh. And and so obviously his complaints

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<v Speaker 4>here uh do have some relationship to unsafe activities.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, I think there is a question in terms

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<v Speaker 4>of the manner in which he disclosed, you know, generally speaking,

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<v Speaker 4>a complaint to your employer, uh, or an agency such

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<v Speaker 4>as OSHA. OSHA is a federal agency that enforces workplace

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<v Speaker 4>safety laws, so certainly could be protected activity. Also, Uh,

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<v Speaker 4>it might be protected concerted activity under the National Labor

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<v Speaker 4>Relations Act because he is talking about his terms and

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<v Speaker 4>conditions of employment, So there might be some additional protection there.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>As a postal work he's protected by union, although he

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<v Speaker 2>has been suspended without play they called an emergency placement

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<v Speaker 2>without pay pending an internal investigation. And of course the

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<v Speaker 2>Postal Services well, no, employee safety is our top priority.

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<v Speaker 1>That's hard to argue though.

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<v Speaker 2>If you've got your sixty year old postal workers who

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<v Speaker 2>normally sit in a truck and deliver mail out with

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<v Speaker 2>their hands and I don't know, using dust pans and

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<v Speaker 2>probably coffee can lids to dry and clear snow out

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<v Speaker 2>from around your vehicle. And keep in mind the snow

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<v Speaker 2>was plowed in a fashion that all the snow from

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<v Speaker 2>the lot is now pushed up against where the vehicles are,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's several feet of snow he got to dig out.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that certainly, and I believe he was sixty years old.

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<v Speaker 4>Not really an age thing, but you know, physical work

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<v Speaker 4>certainly could be an employee safety issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, not sure if that covers it.

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<v Speaker 2>Are there specific whistleblower protections that apply to USPS employees?

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<v Speaker 2>And this is kind of getting granular here, and you

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<v Speaker 2>may not know the answer to that, but if you're

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<v Speaker 2>a federal employee with a union, are you covered in

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<v Speaker 2>there is or something else?

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<v Speaker 3>Well?

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<v Speaker 4>Interestingly, OSHA or the Postal Service is one of the

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<v Speaker 4>few federal agencies that's covered by OSHA as far as

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<v Speaker 4>workplace safety. Their most federal employees are covered under something

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<v Speaker 4>called the whistle Blower Protection Act, so you know there

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<v Speaker 4>there are a ton of different whistle blower laws. OSHA

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<v Speaker 4>actually has a whistle blower Protection program that covers twenty different.

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<v Speaker 3>Statutes, so.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, in order to have protection as an employee,

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<v Speaker 4>what you are complaining about has to be legally protected activity,

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<v Speaker 4>and often you need an underlying statute to provide that protection.

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<v Speaker 4>So you know, it is kind of a patchwork of

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<v Speaker 4>laws and confusing. So you know, it's it's something where

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<v Speaker 4>you probably need some legal advice to know whether you're protected.

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<v Speaker 2>What your lawyers at George Rul did, do you see

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<v Speaker 2>this as undue retaliation for protected activity?

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<v Speaker 3>It certainly, it certainly could be.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, he got he got suspended off of work.

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<v Speaker 4>It's interesting, as I understand it from from looking at

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<v Speaker 4>some of the articles about it. Uh, the Postal Service

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<v Speaker 4>asked him to come back, uh several hours after he

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<v Speaker 4>was suspended, which you know, sort of suggests they knew

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<v Speaker 4>it was potentially a problem to put him, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>put him off work.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 4>So I certainly think, uh, this is one where he

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<v Speaker 4>does have some legal protection. It didn't seem to be

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<v Speaker 4>just an individual gripe you know he was he was

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<v Speaker 4>when he made his post. As I understand it, he said,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, I know I'm not the only one who

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<v Speaker 4>has this concern, So you know, generally it does seem

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<v Speaker 4>like he was not only speaking for himself, but his

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<v Speaker 4>coworkers and the working conditions. So you know, if it's

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<v Speaker 4>not if it's not whistle blowing, uh, it certainly might

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<v Speaker 4>be uh consertive protected act.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's interesting because I know Fox nineteen broke the

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<v Speaker 2>story and a couple of the media outlets had obviously

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about this morning with George Rule, employment law

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<v Speaker 2>attorney from freaking Myerson Rule here in Cincinnati, and Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>as soon as that happens, it's like, well, you know, well,

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<v Speaker 2>why don't you come back to work? I mean, it's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting how that plays out. Does that indicate though, from

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<v Speaker 2>a legal perspective, that maybe they got this wrong at

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<v Speaker 2>first blush that they're backing off so quickly.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it certainly appears like that.

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<v Speaker 4>Now obviously bringing him back after a few hours, that

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<v Speaker 4>would that would limit the adverse impact of a of

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<v Speaker 4>a suspension, Uh, you know, only only losing uh you know,

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<v Speaker 4>maybe two three hours.

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<v Speaker 3>Hours of pay.

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<v Speaker 4>But you know, I certainly I think most employees who

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<v Speaker 4>speak out, uh, you know, do have a concern Hey

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<v Speaker 4>if I put a target on my back by you know, disclosingess.

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<v Speaker 4>So you know, it's not only the immediate suspension, but

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<v Speaker 4>kind of how he's treated in the future. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>that's see.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh so this guy is postal worker Jason Thompson is

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<v Speaker 2>told to take down the post or there's gonna be repercussions.

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<v Speaker 2>He didn't, and the repercussions where we suspend you without pay.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk about a wonky constitutional First amendmentor called prior restraint?

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<v Speaker 1>Was prior restrainted play here?

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I don't know that one's funny.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a good question, right, I was like, well.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it's it's a cons social rite in many

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<v Speaker 2>maining says we prevent you from doing something we don't

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<v Speaker 2>like in the first place. And so the legal standard

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<v Speaker 2>about his speech was they said it was a matter

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<v Speaker 2>of public concern, the public somehawser I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>I buy the this is an issue of public concern.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a workplace safety issue.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I mean whether or not it's protected on the

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<v Speaker 4>First Amendment.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh, you know, that's.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, that's a maybe a complicated legal question. You know,

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<v Speaker 4>is he is he talking as a public employee or

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<v Speaker 4>a private citizen?

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<v Speaker 3>Uh?

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<v Speaker 4>You know, I certainly think there's an angle that would

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<v Speaker 4>be a matter of public concern.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 4>You know, if certainly during a level two snow emergency,

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<v Speaker 4>I think there's a question of whether or not, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>postal workers need to.

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<v Speaker 3>Be on on the road. Uh. It's interesting.

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<v Speaker 4>The the Postal Services statement.

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<v Speaker 3>In response kind of touched on that in terms of saying, hey,

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<v Speaker 3>you know people need their medications.

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<v Speaker 4>Uh, you know government correspondence. So you know, there's an

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<v Speaker 4>argument from the employer there. You know that there's a

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<v Speaker 4>there's a need for for the postal workers to be

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<v Speaker 4>on the on the road.

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<v Speaker 3>And right delivering our right.

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<v Speaker 2>But at the same time they said that, I guess

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<v Speaker 2>the trucks that were bringing the mail in where there

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<v Speaker 2>are no.

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<v Speaker 1>Packages to deliver that day, So why we digging our

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<v Speaker 1>trucks out if we can't move.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, okay, well we're going to show up and

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<v Speaker 2>make you dig our trucks out because maybe that'll save money.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know about that.

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<v Speaker 2>On the other side of this charge rule, talk about

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<v Speaker 2>the burden of proof that the Postal Surface had had

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<v Speaker 2>they suspend him, and what events they have that that

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<v Speaker 2>backs their claim up. We've talked about this case Jason Thompson,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a pretty good claim here.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a whistleblower type of issue.

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<v Speaker 2>But how does the United States Postal Service affirmatively defend themselves.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, I think you know, again, they would look at hey,

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<v Speaker 4>is this just an individual employee ripe, you know, looking

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<v Speaker 4>at the manner in terms of, you know, how he

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<v Speaker 4>communicated this, did he talked the management to express his

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<v Speaker 4>concerns initially at the outset? You know, I think the

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<v Speaker 4>postal Service would say, hey, look, this is a you know,

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<v Speaker 4>a couple hours suspension, so is it is it really

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<v Speaker 4>an adverse employment action? So you know, there would be

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<v Speaker 4>some legal defenses there, but but certainly I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 4>how the postal Service could argue that the suspension had

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<v Speaker 4>anything to do other than than the post itself.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you know.

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<v Speaker 4>The content and the post being about potentially unsafe working conditions,

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<v Speaker 4>So that seems to be a tough argument.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, And it also feels like both sides, at least

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<v Speaker 2>the post service wants us to go away because they

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<v Speaker 2>brought brought them back in hours later, and it's like,

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<v Speaker 2>well it was maybe it was a misstep on our

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<v Speaker 2>part here, We're going to have to clarify our policies

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<v Speaker 2>and like, but what is the takeaway for someone listening

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<v Speaker 2>to is going, well, I'm not a postal worker, I

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<v Speaker 2>don't have to dig trucks out or maybe I do,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm not in a union.

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<v Speaker 1>When you should? You think twice and what what?

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<v Speaker 2>And I guess what are the boundaries posting stuff on

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<v Speaker 2>social We see people fired all the time, right, George,

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<v Speaker 2>because they do something on social or say, say and

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<v Speaker 2>they want to get fire because it makes their company

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<v Speaker 2>look bad, which is perfectly when they're right to do so.

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<v Speaker 1>But what are the limits of that?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 4>So certainly if you are publicly disparaging your employer, if

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<v Speaker 4>you're you know, posting your individual rights online, that can

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<v Speaker 4>be ground to get you discharged.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh.

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<v Speaker 4>You know what you are speaking out about, what you're communicating,

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<v Speaker 4>uh is important? You know, are you exposing something unsafe?

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<v Speaker 3>Uh? You know, unethical? Illegal?

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<v Speaker 4>Uh? That type of speech tends to be protected. Is

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<v Speaker 4>it a matter of public interest?

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<v Speaker 3>You know? Is there is their First Amendment issue?

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<v Speaker 4>And you know then are you are you talking about

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<v Speaker 4>the terms and conditions of your work?

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<v Speaker 3>Is it you know?

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<v Speaker 4>Is it a collective discussion that might be protected again

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<v Speaker 4>under the national wave relationship?

0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:02.880
<v Speaker 3>Right?

0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:04.000
<v Speaker 1>And the other element of this too.

0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.240
<v Speaker 2>I use another example We've seen this happen before, where

0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.560
<v Speaker 2>somebody is a fast food worker and they're doing something

0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.559
<v Speaker 2>in the kitchen that you know, could wind up getting

0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.760
<v Speaker 2>a customer sick, doing something stupid, and they post it

0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:16.160
<v Speaker 2>and they wind up getting fired. They could turn around say, well,

0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.880
<v Speaker 2>I was just exposing this because you know, as a whistleblower. Well,

0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:22.120
<v Speaker 2>it's different if you're participating in it. Is the crux

0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.280
<v Speaker 2>of the their argument or their defense, going, hey, I

0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:26.640
<v Speaker 2>presented this to management, showed them the video, and they

0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.920
<v Speaker 2>didn't do anything. If you post it on social after

0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.160
<v Speaker 2>they refused to act on the complaint, does that then

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:34.480
<v Speaker 2>make it a whistleblower complaint?

0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:36.480
<v Speaker 3>It could?

0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:37.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.760
<v Speaker 4>I mean going to your employer first and raising the concern,

0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.800
<v Speaker 4>I think would would would heighten the protection, right because you're.

0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.240
<v Speaker 3>You know, it shows you have an interest in you.

0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 4>Know, protecting folks I guess from getting sick in that case.

0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Right at the very least, it sounds like, you know,

0:12:58.120 --> 0:12:59.959
<v Speaker 2>the common sense thing to do, outside of the legal

0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:03.280
<v Speaker 2>anglings of this is to simply give the employer, give

0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.120
<v Speaker 2>your employer a chance to remedy the situation.

0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:09.720
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think that that certainly establishes an element of

0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.560
<v Speaker 4>good faith rather than just you know, trying to cause

0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:17.120
<v Speaker 4>problems right, if if you're trying to address the problem, uh,

0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 4>you know, make.

0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:18.679
<v Speaker 3>Somebody aware of it.

0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's and that's just common sense that has something

0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.200
<v Speaker 2>to do with the law. The first step is going

0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.199
<v Speaker 2>to your boss, your employer, saying, hey, here's this is

0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 2>a problem. Why why are we doing this? Why am

0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:30.160
<v Speaker 2>I shoveling snow art? Or why is this person I

0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.160
<v Speaker 2>don't know, doing something a kitchen, at a at a

0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.760
<v Speaker 2>fast food restaurant they shouldn't be doing. If they ignore

0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 2>that at workplace safety issues, then okay, then then you

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.920
<v Speaker 2>know you post it on social it's a different story entirely.

0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.040
<v Speaker 2>All right, Well it's an interesting interesting case for sure.

0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.200
<v Speaker 2>George Rule at freaking Myers and Rule employment lawyers here

0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.080
<v Speaker 2>in Cincinnati. All the best, George, thanks for jumping in

0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:49.480
<v Speaker 2>this morning.

0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 3>Hey, thanks, good to talk to you.

0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:53.560
<v Speaker 2>Yes, sir, be well, hope you're well. We'll chat again

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.480
<v Speaker 2>soon because there's really something popping up in the workplace,

0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:57.920
<v Speaker 2>that's for sure. There's news on the way in just

0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.080
<v Speaker 2>a few minutes here on seven hundred WLW. And when

0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.080
<v Speaker 2>we return. Now it's rather cold, but you may have

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:04.960
<v Speaker 2>a little cabin fever.

0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:05.520
<v Speaker 1>I know, I do.

0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:08.680
<v Speaker 2>We actually with my wife having her knee done, and

0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 2>finally venture out and actually eat a meal out of

0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:11.920
<v Speaker 2>the Sloan Castle.

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 1>Last night We're like, we got to get that out

0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:15.920
<v Speaker 1>of here. A little bit of cabin fever.

0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.760
<v Speaker 2>So if you want to venture out, dip that toe

0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:20.520
<v Speaker 2>in the cold, what to do, where to go, what

0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.360
<v Speaker 2>to see, what to eat, what to drink? Ali Martin

0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:25.560
<v Speaker 2>in the Local Loop is coming up in just minutes

0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 2>here on The Scott's Loan Show on seven hundred w

0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:27.840
<v Speaker 2>all Day