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Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much.

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Speaker 1: Al.

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Speaker 2: You know, one of the big stories in the last

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Speaker 2: couple of months has dealt with the Trump administration's decision

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Speaker 2: to actually attack some boats that leave Venezuela or Colombia,

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Speaker 2: I guess somewhere in the Caribbean and sometimes in the

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Speaker 2: Pacific Ocean, and they they hit I'm I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: if it's they hit it with drone strikes or if

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Speaker 2: they hit it with traditional you know, airplane airplane strikes.

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Speaker 2: But you've seen the videos. You see these vessels moving along.

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Speaker 2: They look to me like pretty fancy speed boats, and

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden they're gone. And according to whatever

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Speaker 2: numbers you believe, there have been at least a dozen

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Speaker 2: strikes since September and about fifty seven people they believe

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Speaker 2: have been killed. There's been some a lot of publicity

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Speaker 2: about that. And that's we're going to dig in tonight

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Speaker 2: with me is Professor Michael Nagel. He is a Holy

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Speaker 2: Cross graduate, has his PhD out of Yukon teachers at

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Speaker 2: Nichols College. Been teaching in Nichols College since twenty and fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Before that, he actually worked as a newspaper reporter in

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Speaker 2: various locations New York State, Columbus, Ohio, and he's settled

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Speaker 2: down as a teacher, and he really is an expert

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Speaker 2: historian on what the US foreign policy has been in

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Speaker 2: this hemisphere, particularly in Central and South America, through a

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Speaker 2: whole bunch of presidential administrations, both Democratic and Republicans. So

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Speaker 2: I want to welcome Professor Michael Nagle Nagel. He's a

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Speaker 2: professor of history, director of history and political science, and

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Speaker 2: co chair of the Terrorism Studies Program at Nichols College

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Speaker 2: in Dudley, Massachusetts. In his new book, Chasing bandits America's

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Speaker 2: long War on Terror, and we could get into some

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Speaker 2: history of it, but I'd like to focus initially Professor Nagel.

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Speaker 2: First of all, welcome to Night's Side number one, Colton.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Dan. I appreciate the invitation to

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Speaker 3: talk he tonight.

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Speaker 2: Sure, it's what it's tried to set the table. There's

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of agendas at play here. Obviously, we

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Speaker 2: have an administration in Venezuela which is welcoming Russian assistance

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Speaker 2: in our hemisphere, and I'm sure that is something that

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration is not particularly pleased to see. Uh,

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Speaker 2: other administrations have done some have engaged in activity. Let's

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Speaker 2: just let's talk about this, this this boat situation. We

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Speaker 2: talked to you and I talked earlier today, and I

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Speaker 2: think you have some real serious questions that I don't

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Speaker 2: know I have answers for. But on the surface, I'm

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Speaker 2: glad that some administration is doing something to keep harmful

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Speaker 2: drugs out of out of our country where so many,

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Speaker 2: so many young people have died in recent years from fentanyl.

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Speaker 2: And I and we may disagree a little bit here

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Speaker 2: around the edges, but obviously anything that could be done

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Speaker 2: legally that will save lives. For some reason, a lot

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Speaker 2: of Americans and young Americans take chances with these drugs,

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Speaker 2: and these drugs they're not your your parents marijuana from Woodstock,

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Speaker 2: and they have moved on way past whatever people were

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Speaker 2: puffing on at Woodstock back fifty or so years ago.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's yeah, there's a lot to unpack with all this.

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Speaker 3: And I think you know you had mentioned, you know

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Speaker 3: that you support anything that can be done legally to

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Speaker 3: try to halt the flow of these narcotics. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's kind of the the the rub here with

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Speaker 3: what's going on near Venezuela. Is you know, are these

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Speaker 3: are these strikes legal? The Trump administration has kind of

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Speaker 3: has has used the the you know, some of the

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Speaker 3: rhetoric of the war on terror, uh to suggest that

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Speaker 3: these drug cartels are essentially like terrorists and should be

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Speaker 3: treated as such. You know, but before this, you know,

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Speaker 3: certainly the United States for decades, I mean this is

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Speaker 3: going back to the Nixon administration has had a so

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Speaker 3: called war on drugs, and in most of these other cases,

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Speaker 3: many many of these other cases of interdicting ships at

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Speaker 3: sea believed to be smuggling uh, narcotics. You know, you

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Speaker 3: have the Coastguard UH seize the ships, UH, board them,

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Speaker 3: investigate them, arrest the suspects, and and and you know,

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Speaker 3: put them through the criminal justice system. But what's going

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Speaker 3: on here since September? Are these lethal strikes that have

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Speaker 3: killed you know, I think again I'm also losing track.

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Speaker 3: I think I think we're probably closer to the death

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Speaker 3: toll of of close to seventy people, or at least

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Speaker 3: that's what the Defense Department has been saying. You know,

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Speaker 3: these these are basically extra judicial killings. We're not quite

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Speaker 3: sure who exactly these people are or at least the

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Speaker 3: Defense Department is not saying. We're also not clear if

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Speaker 3: they are in fact carrying the narcotics that the military

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Speaker 3: has said that they've been carrying, and that that does

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Speaker 3: bring in questions of the legality of these kinds of strikes.

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Speaker 3: But I think regardless, what we're seeing is certainly a

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Speaker 3: militarization of the war on drugs, and I think this

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Speaker 3: is also reflective of the militarization of counter terrorism measures

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Speaker 3: that have really been in place since nine to eleven.

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Speaker 3: So I do think what the Trump administration is doing

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Speaker 3: is on the one hand, exacerbating or escalating the war

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Speaker 3: on drugs and having an intersect with the war on terror,

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Speaker 3: but also I think drawing from drawing bits and pieces

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Speaker 3: from previous playbooks to stage these kinds of strikes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand where you're coming from totally, and I

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Speaker 2: think in a perfect world what I have heard and

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Speaker 2: you know this better than I do, so if I'm incorrect,

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Speaker 2: please feel free to correct correct me, or you know, change.

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Speaker 2: My view is that these boats that they're hitting our

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Speaker 2: high powered speed boats, and that the Coastguard can keep

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Speaker 2: up with these boats. Now, I guess if you have

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Speaker 2: three or four coastguard cutters. You can probably cut kind

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Speaker 2: of off at the chase or something. But it sounds

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Speaker 2: to me like we're the that these these boats are

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Speaker 2: not Venezuelan families out for a Sunday afternoon ride ride

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Speaker 2: around the harbor of Caracas or whatever whatever coastal cities Venezuela. Ya.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know you I'm not trying to get

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Speaker 2: to the to the issue of probable cause here, but

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Speaker 2: when you look at them and say, well, what are

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Speaker 2: they doing out there? They're not running, you know, some

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Speaker 2: form of NASCAR races on water. I'm assuming that the

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Speaker 2: Trump administration would have lawyers, and again this may be

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Speaker 2: too big an assumption that they would have some c

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Speaker 2: i A type operatives within Venezuela who would be able

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Speaker 2: to give them some information. And at the same time,

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Speaker 2: you don't want to compromise your your methods and press

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Speaker 2: so that you can put people who are helping us,

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Speaker 2: you know, on the inside, in danger. Chris, the administration,

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Speaker 2: in any administration, but particularly one that is you know,

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Speaker 2: pretty aggressive in a tough mind, how how do you

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Speaker 2: feel this could be done? Assuming for a second, these

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Speaker 2: are not you know, Venezuelan families or out on a

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Speaker 2: on a little skiff or in the afternoon, what how

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Speaker 2: And if the Coast Guard is being truthful that these

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Speaker 2: boats have the ability to outrun the best coast Guard

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Speaker 2: cutters we have. And I'm not sure, by the way,

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Speaker 2: how far our Coastguard cutters can can stray from our shores.

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Speaker 2: Are they allowed in international waters to engage in interdiction?

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Speaker 2: I just don't know the answers to those questions, and

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Speaker 2: I don't expect you to have those answers either. So

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Speaker 2: my question is if the president were to all you

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Speaker 2: up and say, hey, how how can I do this?

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Speaker 2: How can I accomplish my goals, however wadable they might be,

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Speaker 2: and yet not exposed myself to to really justifiable criticism,

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Speaker 2: got any thoughts ideas?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: No, so, I you know, you mentioned you'd asked, you know,

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Speaker 3: are these Could these some of these be fishing boats

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Speaker 3: and just people going out for a drive. I think

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Speaker 3: one of the strikes there, the Colombian government has said

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Speaker 3: that it was a Colombian citizen who was a fisherman

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Speaker 3: who was killed in one of these strikes, And in

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Speaker 3: another strike there were two survivors and both of them

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Speaker 3: were remanded to the custody of their home countries, which

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Speaker 3: also suggests that maybe indeed they were not the drug

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Speaker 3: smugglers that the milit harry thought that they were. And

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Speaker 3: so that's where it gets it gets problematic. And then also,

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Speaker 3: uh to just outright blow up these boats without any

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Speaker 3: kind of uh direct provocation. Uh, That's that's also I

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Speaker 3: think another troubling uh escalation.

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Speaker 5: And well, the problem the provocation couldn't they could indeed,

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Speaker 5: they could indeed be drug runners.

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Speaker 6: They could indeed.

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Speaker 2: Know what I'm saying is the problem the provocation would

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Speaker 2: be the transportation of these you know, you know, highly

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Speaker 2: fate fatal if there's you know a lot of these

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Speaker 2: drugs have been laced with other things that I realized

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Speaker 2: that when we talked today, that fentanyl is more of

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Speaker 2: a product from China into Mexico and then it's changed

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Speaker 2: in Mexico. But I I'm just asking what could you do?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I guess, you know, Kennedy put up a

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Speaker 2: blockade of Cuba in nineteen sixty two, uh, and and

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Speaker 2: force the Russian ships to turn around.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, hopefully, And.

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Speaker 2: That's you know, we made we made some some compromises

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Speaker 2: and some commitments in there, we pulled some missiles out

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Speaker 2: of Turkey that were pointing at pointing at Russia. But

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Speaker 2: Stevenson was our ambassador at least Stevenson to the United Nations.

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Speaker 2: Do we have to just wait and and track these

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Speaker 2: these these boats and see where they go and what

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Speaker 2: they offload. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: a way in which we can do it, but do

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Speaker 2: it right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And and I think I think one of the

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Speaker 3: things to not do is to summarily blow up a

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Speaker 3: boat without any further investigation, you know, because where where

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Speaker 3: does the line stop? Then I think it's a slippery

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Speaker 3: slope if the administration is simply going to target uh

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Speaker 3: and and kill, you know, criminals without uh you know,

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Speaker 3: sufficient cause. And so I think that's that's that's one aspect.

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Speaker 3: And I think the other aspect to just a very

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Speaker 3: long running war on drugs one of the other things

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Speaker 3: that also has to be remember remember too, it's it's

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Speaker 3: it's a business and considering it, you know, consider supply

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Speaker 3: and demand. If there's a way in which to curb

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Speaker 3: demand uh in US markets, that will bring the supply down,

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Speaker 3: But that is a much longer term.

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Speaker 2: Kind of I remember Nancy Reagan just saying no. And

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Speaker 2: I remember, you know, frying eggs on a sidewalk. This

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Speaker 2: is your brain drugs. Let me take a quick break.

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Speaker 2: I've gone past our commercial break. My guest is Professor

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Speaker 2: Michael Beagle. He is with me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: Someone said to me early take It rhymes with that

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Speaker 2: I was in my head. Professor Michael Nagel any a

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Speaker 2: g l e uh. And we will continue our conversation

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Speaker 2: with him, and we invite you to call uh. Some

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Speaker 2: of you probably have questions that are better than mine

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Speaker 2: or observation six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty

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Speaker 2: six one seven, nine three, one ten thirty. My name

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Speaker 2: is Dan Ray. His name is Professor Michael Nagel. Back

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Speaker 2: on Nightside after.

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Speaker 1: This night Side with Dan Ray on w BZ, Boston's

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Speaker 1: news radio.

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Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to get this right. I was uh,

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Speaker 2: I was given some wrong information today, Professor. It is

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Speaker 2: Professor Michael Nagel. Yeah, and I'm embarrassed. But I was

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Speaker 2: given that information and I took it as his truth.

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Speaker 2: So Nagel's easy. Nagel, Professor Michael Nagel. So let me

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Speaker 2: come back to again. I think we all can agree

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Speaker 2: that we want to keep these drugs out of our territory.

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Speaker 2: And even if there is a desire for Americans to

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Speaker 2: experiment with these drugs, I don't think we can we

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Speaker 2: can allow that desire to overcome a government policy which

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Speaker 2: may mean to keep this stuff out. So it sounds

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Speaker 2: to me like you've constructed kind of a catch twenty

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Speaker 2: two here where it would be great to keep this

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Speaker 2: stuff out, but is there a way to do it

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Speaker 2: according to the Marcus of Queensberry rules of international law?

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Speaker 2: And these guys don't have due process rights because first

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Speaker 2: of all, they're not American citizens, they're not in American territory.

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Speaker 2: And if they are doing this and we're defending ourselves,

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Speaker 2: I don't think we have a problem legally. But how

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Speaker 2: do we know?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's why I think the language and the descriptors

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Speaker 3: come in, you know, referring to them as narcot terrorists,

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Speaker 3: uh and and unlawful combatants, as the Trump administration has done.

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Speaker 3: This is this is I think what what the Trump

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Speaker 3: administration is using to justify, uh, these these recent attacks. Now,

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Speaker 3: narco terrorists. It's not that that's not a new term.

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Speaker 3: That's something that the C I A coined back in

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Speaker 3: the nineteen eighties to refer to this kind of nexus

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Speaker 3: of of drug cartels with leftist insurgent groups in in

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Speaker 3: Latin America. And you know, the name Pablo Escobar is

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Speaker 3: probably familiar to to many of your listeners. You know,

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Speaker 3: he was kind of the uh, the narco terrorist uh

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Speaker 3: uh par excellence of of of his day. And and

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Speaker 3: Trump has also referred to, you know, these these targets

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Speaker 3: as quote unquote unlawful combatants.

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Speaker 1: UH.

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Speaker 3: And this is something that's also not new. The Bush

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Speaker 3: administration used UH similar terminology in the wars in Iraq

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Speaker 3: and Afghanistan to refer to captured insurgents to then justify

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Speaker 3: the indefinite detention UH and the use of enhanced interrogation

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Speaker 3: against some of these individuals. So one of the things

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Speaker 3: that I've been focusing on with this with this story

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Speaker 3: is the terminology that's being used. And you know, as

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Speaker 3: a historian, I'm trying to think of UH change or

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Speaker 3: continuity over time. And one of the things I see

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Speaker 3: over and over is even though some of the terminology

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Speaker 3: might be different, this kind of rhetoric has been similarly

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Speaker 3: used by various administrations both Republican and Democrat over the

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Speaker 3: last century plus, to justify getting involved in in places abroad,

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Speaker 3: or to justify going after enemies, to to change rules

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Speaker 3: of engagement, uh, to get past previous standards of of uh,

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Speaker 3: the way in which the United States would pursue some

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Speaker 3: of these enemies. And so for me, uh my my,

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Speaker 3: what what really kind of perked my interest in this

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Speaker 3: in this story going on in outside Venezuela right now,

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Speaker 3: is is that aspect is is the rhetoric and how

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Speaker 3: it's been used to justify certain policies.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I want to be a wise guy here, but

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Speaker 2: but if the Trump administration came to you and said, hey,

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Speaker 2: what about if we call these guys unlicensed Venezuelan pharmaceutical exporters,

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Speaker 2: I mean you, uh, whatever the language, you wouldn't.

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Speaker 3: It still wouldn't justify killing them.

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Speaker 2: Well okay, so let okay, fair enough, far enough, and

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Speaker 2: I understand that that position. Obviously, we went in and

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Speaker 2: cad the Bush administration went and captured Manuel Noriega and

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Speaker 2: basically captured him, put him on trial, convicted him, and

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Speaker 2: he died in federal prison. President Obama eliminated an imam

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Speaker 2: uh In uh In.

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Speaker 3: Yemen, an American, an American citizen, and his kid and

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Speaker 3: his I.

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Speaker 2: Think his fifty his twelve year old son was in

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Speaker 2: the vehicle with him. Now, you know, I don't I

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Speaker 2: don't remember anybody really, you know, concerned about that action.

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Speaker 2: By the way, Alawaukee had actually been a visitor to

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Speaker 2: the White House. Did you know that?

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Speaker 6: No, I did not know that he had been he had.

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Speaker 2: Been invited, He had been in uh an Imam. I

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Speaker 2: believe his mosque was of the Moscoe with which he

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Speaker 2: was affiliated, either was in Maryland or Virginia, and at

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Speaker 2: some point during the Obama administration he had actually either

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Speaker 2: been invited or spoke at the White House. And then

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Speaker 2: they realized that this guy was a bad dude, and

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Speaker 2: they decided to take him out. And they took him,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was his twelve thirteen year old

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Speaker 2: son was in the car. They had they had actionable

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Speaker 2: intelligence as to and there's no question they got the

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Speaker 2: right guy. Let's do this, Let's take a break, and

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Speaker 2: let's invite some callers to join the conversation. As they say,

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Speaker 2: this is I think a legitimate topic to be discussing. Uh.

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Speaker 2: This is the type of dilemma that any commander in

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Speaker 2: chief has to face. I realized that Donald Trump has

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Speaker 2: been someone who who in some cases perhaps acts first

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Speaker 2: and then thinks about it, as opposed to those who

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Speaker 2: are a little bit more thoughtful initially and action oriented after.

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Speaker 2: But well, this is I think this is this is

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Speaker 2: a great sort of class for you as a historian,

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Speaker 2: and you're that you're conducting for us tonight, and and

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Speaker 2: also for political scientists to look at. I mean, does

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Speaker 2: the president of the United States actually have an obligation,

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Speaker 2: if he has actionable intelligence, to try to intercept and

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Speaker 2: if necessary, destroy boats heading here that have high potency drugs. Again,

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Speaker 2: I don't assume they're bringing bales of marijuana on those boats.

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Speaker 2: They're too small. But the points you raise are great.

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Speaker 2: I want to hear from the audience and I'd like

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Speaker 2: to get their sense of if they are troubled by

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Speaker 2: this or do they feel this is necessary doing business

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Speaker 2: in the world in twenty twenty five, it seems to

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Speaker 2: it seems to get more complicated every year. Back on

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Speaker 2: Night's Tide with my guest, professor Michael Nagel. He's a

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Speaker 2: historian at Nichols College. Very impressive record and he has

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Speaker 2: a resume, I should say, no record. And he has

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Speaker 2: a new book out that he has recently written about

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Speaker 2: and that is how it was called. To our attention,

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Speaker 2: author of the book Chasing Bandits America's Long War on Terror.

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Speaker 2: That's the entire title. We will be back with Professor

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Speaker 2: Nagel and hopefully some phone calls six one, seven, two, five,

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Speaker 2: four ten thirty six one, seven, nine, three, ten thirty.

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Speaker 2: My name is Dan Ray. This is Nightside on a

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Speaker 2: Friday night. I'm here. You're there, pick up the phone

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Speaker 2: back after this.

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Speaker 1: You're on night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z,

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Speaker 1: Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: My guest is Professor Michael Nagel Nichols College, and he

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Speaker 2: is an historian and his his area of expertise is again, uh,

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Speaker 2: Central and South America and US involvement going back all

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Speaker 2: the way even to Teddy Roosevelt's day as well. You

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Speaker 2: could probably go back to James Monroe's days with the

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Speaker 2: Monroe doctrine, which I mean, correct me if I'm wrong here,

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Speaker 2: but President Monroe kind of made it up. It said

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Speaker 2: we got a Monroe doctrine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you had a lot of help with his Secretary

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Speaker 3: of State Massachusetts own John Quincy Adams with that, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I.

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Speaker 2: Could be wrong here, but I don't think the Monroe

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Speaker 2: doctrine ever passed Congress or was it was? It was

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Speaker 2: a presidential statement, So that that is where I guess

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Speaker 2: all of this does start. We have a bunch of

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Speaker 2: phone calls, Professor, so let's plow ahead and see what

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Speaker 2: folks have to say and what they they can express

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Speaker 2: an opinion, ask a question, their choice. Let's start it

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Speaker 2: off with Jane in Shrewsbury. Hey, Jane, welcome you first tonight,

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Speaker 2: First this Hour, with my guest, Professor Michael Nagel.

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Speaker 7: Go ahead, Hi, Dan High Professor. I'm quite concerned about

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Speaker 7: this topic, and I have a couple of questions and

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Speaker 7: a couple of statements. I don't think that there's any

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Speaker 7: kingpins on these So even if they were drug boats,

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Speaker 7: we're not going to eliminate the source by blowing up boats.

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Speaker 7: And then we have no evidence and absolutely no way

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Speaker 7: to prove that they were drug boats. It's raising a

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Speaker 7: lot of questions that can't be answered. And Dan, when

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Speaker 7: you said, if it's necessary to do this kind of thing,

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Speaker 7: then why would we only be targeting Venezuelan boats? You

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Speaker 7: know there's drugs coming into United States ports, open waterways

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Speaker 7: that are not protected, and there's drug dealers all over

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Speaker 7: the world. So I don't see why Venezuela is being

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Speaker 7: singled out, and it makes me wonder why.

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Speaker 2: Now, jas let me try to answer that question first.

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Speaker 2: First of all, Yeah, there's a lot of stuff coming

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Speaker 2: into this country, coming in over the northern border, coming

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Speaker 2: in and over the southern border, coming through ports, probably

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Speaker 2: coming in through airports, no question. If, however, we have

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Speaker 2: actionable intelligence, which is a question, but if we have

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Speaker 2: actionable intelligence that these speed boats are moving contraband illicit

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Speaker 2: drugs from Venezuela or Colombia to drop off spots and

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Speaker 2: they're in the open waters, international waters, they become easy targets.

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Speaker 2: And I would suspect that one of the things that

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Speaker 2: the administration might be thinking, and I don't want to

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Speaker 2: jump ahead here, might be thinking that if we make

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Speaker 2: an example out of a few of these boats, it

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Speaker 2: might discourage others. Yeah, there's going to be no drug

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Speaker 2: kingpins in the Voat, no question about it. Pablo Escobauro

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Speaker 2: were alive today, he wouldn't be in one of these boats.

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Speaker 2: But it might a lot of other people might say,

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Speaker 2: you know, good money doing this this boat stuff, but

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Speaker 2: maybe not worth the price of admission. Dan.

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Speaker 7: Yes, but some of the people on those bats might

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Speaker 7: be forced to do that. We don't know if they're

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Speaker 7: you know, being that's heavy handed treatment to make them

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Speaker 7: do those jobs. And it also seems it also seems

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Speaker 7: really inconsistent with President Trump's been saying multiple times I

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Speaker 7: just want to stop the killing when he talks about

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Speaker 7: Gaza or Ukraine. But blowing up boats isn't stopping the killing,

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Speaker 7: and if it leads to another war, I sort of

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Speaker 7: suspect he's deflecting. He wants to take our attention away

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Speaker 7: from other things like Jeffrey Epstein or the problems with

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Speaker 7: the economy or whatever. Just the whole thing is a

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Speaker 7: little bit suspicious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, I'm going to assume that you're

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Speaker 2: not somebody who is ambivalent on Donald Trump. If you're

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Speaker 2: going to say.

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Speaker 7: No, no, no, you know I'm not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, So no, that's fine, And I know you

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Speaker 2: as well, And I was trying to be gentle. So

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Speaker 2: I don't know if if we were to find out

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Speaker 2: a couple of years from now that this the CIA

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Speaker 2: had developed intelligence that these boats were in fact what

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Speaker 2: they are, and President Trump did nothing. Would you defend

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Speaker 2: him for doing nothing if we really know what's on

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Speaker 2: these boats.

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Speaker 7: I don't know, But I also think if it's if

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Speaker 7: they are drug boats, then there are other boats from

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Speaker 7: other places, and that Venezuelan boat shouldn't be the only

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Speaker 7: ones if we really want to target the boats.

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Speaker 5: Jane Jane, Well, if I got, if I may, if

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Speaker 5: I made, Jane Jane, you raised, you raised a lot

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Speaker 5: of good questions, and I think, and I think one

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Speaker 5: of them is, you know, what is the broader utility

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Speaker 5: of this?

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Speaker 6: Is this?

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Speaker 3: Are these strikes really cutting down on the supply of

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Speaker 3: illegal narcotics into the United States? These are just drops

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Speaker 3: in the bucket. The Coast Guard has routinely these tons

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Speaker 3: of drugs that see all over the place. So I

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Speaker 3: think that's number one. I think number two, why off

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Speaker 3: the coast of Venezuela. I think there's another dimension to this,

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Speaker 3: and that is to put pressure on the the government

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Speaker 3: of Nicholas Maduro, who the Trumpet minister Trump has been

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Speaker 3: trying to get rid of since his first term. I

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Speaker 3: think there's there's been a intense military build up uh

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Speaker 3: in that part of the Caribbean that is also trying

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Speaker 3: to put pressure on on Maduro, who's you know, let's

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Speaker 3: face it, a dictator who has ignored elections, who has

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Speaker 3: run a by all accounts, a corrupt regime. And so

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Speaker 3: this is also so in addition to this being an

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Speaker 3: escalation of the long running war on drugs, I think

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Speaker 3: this is also some kind of old fashioned gun boat

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Speaker 3: diplomacy in you know, Dan, a few minutes ago, you

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Speaker 3: were referencing Teddy Roosevelt. You know, he did stuff like

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Speaker 3: this with the gunboat diplomacy relative to getting the Panama

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Speaker 3: Canal and at the turn of the twentieth century, and

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Speaker 3: you know, by stationing American.

435
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 2: Sure, professor, let me jump in for a second there,

436
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: I never want to correct a historian. He may have

437
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: with gunboat diplomacy, got the property where we built the

438
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: Panama Canal.

439
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 3: I'm sorry.

440
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a difference. It isn't as if we

441
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: took over the Panama Canal. We took over the property

442
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 2: where we built the Panama Canal. Uh. It's a small

443
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: it was.

444
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 3: It was part of what was going on was the

445
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: province of Panama was trying to separate itself from the

446
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 3: state of Colombia. It had been part of Colombia, and

447
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,399
Speaker 3: you know, and so Teddy Roosevelt parks, you know, gunboats

448
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: offshore just to kind of keep the Colombian authorities at bay,

449
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 3: to allow for Panamanian separatists to declare independence with the

450
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: then with the quid pro quo of granting the United

451
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 3: States the canal zone to then build the Panama Canal.

452
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 3: So my point is that using using a show, we're

453
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: having a display of military force or the threat of

454
00:28:54,080 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 3: military force to try to get one's foreign policy goals achieved.

455
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: The question would be whether or not the Venezuelan people

456
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: And this gets, I think to secondary in tertiary issues.

457
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 2: Would it be good for the Venezuelan people to be

458
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: led by a government by Nobel Peace Prize William Maria

459
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 2: Karina Machado rather than Nicholas Madora.

460
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: Well, that would be up for the Venezuelans to decide.

461
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 3: My concern is that if and there's a law, there's

462
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: a long history.

463
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 6: There's a long history.

464
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 3: Of American regime change around the world, and almost none

465
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: of these cases go well. And the most recent example,

466
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,560
Speaker 3: certainly is you know what happened in Iraq, in two

467
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 3: thousand and three. You know, nobody was trying to suggest

468
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: that Saddam Hussein was a good guy or anything like that.

469
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 3: But the fall of Saddam Hussein at the hands of

470
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 3: the United States then leads to a calamitous cascade of

471
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 3: violence in Iraq that the Iraqi State is still trying

472
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 3: to dig itself out of.

473
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that was I think that was a

474
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: huge mistake by the Bush administration and by the late

475
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: Dick Cheney who led the who led the arguments in

476
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 2: favor of that. I think that the Venezuelan people are

477
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: significantly different, both in terms of geography UH and in

478
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 2: terms of close closer to the United States. And I

479
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: do think that when you have a Nobel Peace Prize

480
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 2: winner currently who is the face of the opposition in Venezuela,

481
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: UH and the and our government has put a fifty

482
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: million dollar price tag on the head of Maduro, I mean,

483
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: should we be doing that? I would say, why not?

484
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: You know, and doing by doing that, you mean, just

485
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 3: try to take out Madruro directly?

486
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think how you can take him out

487
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: anymore directly by putting a fifty million dollar price tag

488
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: on his head. Yeah, I'm not saying we go in

489
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: there with I'm not saying we go in there with

490
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 2: with the eighty second Airborne Division. But if all of

491
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: a sudden, our presence there does have the secondary benefit

492
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: of Maduro deciding to to to take a plane ride

493
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 2: to Moscow and and and allow the his corrupt elections

494
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: to be overthrown and Maria Karina Machado were to become

495
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: the head of state. I would celebrate that, you know,

496
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: I would say that, I'm not stressful.

497
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 3: I think he has uh you know, he's been he's

498
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 3: held onto power far too long. He has just completely

499
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: ignored the most recent elections that I think overwhelmingly we're

500
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 3: looking to vote him out. So this is this is

501
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 3: not this is not me trying to to Oh I

502
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:44,959
Speaker 3: know that.

503
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: No, I know that. Look, Stretch, I've keep my conversation, Jane.

504
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 2: I I hate to do this to you, but I

505
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: we have. I've kind of taken over the conversation here, uh,

506
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: And I apologize. I will make it up to you

507
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 2: next time.

508
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 7: But it was It's an interesting topic and I appreciated

509
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 7: the chance to contribute.

510
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 2: Well. You contributed mightily, and I hope you can contribute

511
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: whether you agree with me on any this, this or

512
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: any other topic. Thank you so much.

513
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 7: Thank you.

514
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 2: Talk to you soon. Okay, we've got to take a

515
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 2: very quick break. I got three callers left, Steve, Tom,

516
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: and Carol, and I'm gonna listen to all of you

517
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: and you can interchange with Professor Nagel, simple as that.

518
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 2: I'll be back on Nightside right after this break.

519
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: It's night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.

520
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 2: Where the lines have lit up. Let's go to I'm

521
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: going to go first of all to Carol in Randolph.

522
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: Carol next on Nightside.

523
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 8: Hi, Dan, how are you.

524
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: We're doing great, We're tight on time. I went very

525
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: long and I interrupted Jane, but I'm going to listen

526
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 2: to what you have to ask or say. Go right ahead.

527
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 8: I really agree with your guest speaker, Michael Nail. We

528
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 8: have to do whatever we can to stop the drugs

529
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 8: coming into this country.

530
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 2: And we don't know that. Profession Nagel necessary has expressed

531
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: that opinion. Professors is Carol on the money with that?

532
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 3: Well, I mean what we're supposed to be a loss?

533
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 6: We have to be.

534
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 3: You know, we're we're a nation of loss, and you know,

535
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 3: if it's if it's certainly you know, if it's it's

536
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 3: within within legal bounds to to stop drugs, I mean,

537
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 3: then you know we can do it. My my concern

538
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: is in this case, you know, I'm not I'm not sure.

539
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 3: I don't think what's going on here with h the

540
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 3: these strikes off Venezuela and the the quote unquote Eastern

541
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 3: Pacific would would necessarily qualify. You know, the United States

542
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: for years and years and years has been has been

543
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 3: working to uh interdict drugs at sea. It's it's had

544
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 3: tremendous success, but yet more comes in because is here

545
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: so in demand.

546
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 8: We have to stop the demand that the seventies and yeah,

547
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 8: I tried everything, but I didn't think it was going

548
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 8: to kill me. But now but they're innocent, they don't know,

549
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 8: they can go out to one party in their first

550
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 8: time and they can be dead.

551
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 2: Absolutely tell you that's probably the most salient, the most

552
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 2: important point anyone could make tonight. And I'm glad you

553
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 2: make it. But you made it. But let me grab

554
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: a couple of other folks in here quickly. Okay, all right,

555
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,479
Speaker 2: thanks great, Thanks by good night. Steve is in Bridgewater. Steve,

556
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: You're next on nightside, go right ahead.

557
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 6: Yes, I again, I got to say I disagree with

558
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 6: the professor. I just want to say briefly in my

559
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 6: first of all, I don't believe they're just randomly blowing

560
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 6: boats out of the water. There must be heavy intelligence

561
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 6: that you told them to be boats are carrying drugs

562
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 6: and that's so called fishing boat had drugs on it.

563
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 6: Damn that they were talking about that. I heard it

564
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 6: had drugs on it. Yeah.

565
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 2: Again, I take what the professor said to be true,

566
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 2: and I take what you said to be true. And

567
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:18,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, you know whatever, But that's think about it.

568
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 6: It's nice. It's pretty smart to disguise a drug boat

569
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 6: as a fishing boat. That's I'm sure it was the

570
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,439
Speaker 6: idea behind it. But I think I as far as i'mthing,

571
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 6: turned down their enemies in the United States, they're foreign enemies,

572
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 6: and we have to do what it takes to stop

573
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,919
Speaker 6: that poison for coming in here.

574
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, if it was a fishing boat, I think that

575
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: that would have been better for the Coastguard. I was.

576
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: I'm more supportive of when they're going after these uh

577
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 2: these speedboats.

578
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, well yeah, okay, me too, speedboats.

579
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Steve, I appreciate it. Let me I just kind

580
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 2: of try to get one more in here. I wish

581
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: you had called a little earlier and I could have

582
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: got more people.

583
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 6: Well, I was gone for a while waiting. But it's okay,

584
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 6: damn give it took no.

585
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: I understand that it's just that I should have gotten

586
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: to the call. Is that's really my mistake? Sooner for

587
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 2: all right, for this segment. But you've made your point

588
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 2: pretty clear. Steve. Yes, I think you've made you as

589
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: you always do. Thank you so much.

590
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 6: All right, Thank you, Dan, thank you.

591
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,479
Speaker 2: Let me get Tom and Lowell. Tom, you go right ahead.

592
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: You're all with Professor Mike Nagel.

593
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 9: Hi, guys, thanks for having me. What a great conversation

594
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 9: this has been. I think you really touched on a

595
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 9: lot this whole conversation. I think the two main themes

596
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 9: that I took away from this was a United States intervention,

597
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 9: which I think we covered pretty clearly, and the use

598
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 9: of extra judicial killing.

599
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 6: One big point I wanted to bring.

600
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 10: Up was you guys talked about anwar Alilaki and the

601
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 10: killing of his son Aldulermont. I thought I was killed

602
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 10: two weeks later by Obama and Yemen in a drone

603
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 10: strike on a public Restaurantlake talk about an extra judicial

604
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,320
Speaker 10: killing of an American citizen without Judge Jerry or Isle

605
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 10: and Obama just acting as executioner, but bringing up.

606
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: The did we lose him here?

607
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 9: I got a big conversation that no.

608
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 4: As I talked about go right.

609
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 2: To go right ahead, Tom, we're getting we're running out

610
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 2: of time, quick go ahead, yep.

611
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,319
Speaker 4: Uh was a lot of this isn't really even to

612
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 4: do with necessarily Venezuela, but it's the interests in Venezuela,

613
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 4: especially coming from Russia and China, which we really didn't

614
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 4: talk about. Yeah, it's sure we're killing the drug the

615
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 4: drug runners off the coast, and there could be the

616
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 4: legal argument here, but the pressure we're putting on here

617
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 4: is China and Russia. It's not necessarily Venezuela. We would

618
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 4: love the Nobel Peace Prize winner to take over for

619
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 4: Venezuela and she's more compliant with the United States interests.

620
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 4: But the real targets here is the geopolitical interest with

621
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 4: Russia and China, and I just don't think that needed

622
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:57,479
Speaker 4: to be said.

623
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you very much for staying that. And I

624
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 2: appreciate it again. I wish I had more time for you, Tom,

625
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 2: but I will get to the calls. I got to

626
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 2: get to the callers more quickly. Thank you so much. Okay,

627
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: thanks Tom. Professor Nagel, Uh, let me mention the book

628
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 2: which is just out, if I'm not mistaken, Chasing Bandits

629
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: America's Law Long War on Terror. I think everybody should

630
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: get a chance to read it. Available Amazon and bookstores,

631
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 2: I assume. Tell me, is there any other way they

632
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: can get to it?

633
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 3: Oh, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Uh, it's through the University

634
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 3: of North Carolina Press their website. You can you can

635
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: order directly off.

636
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: Do you have a website where people can reach you?

637
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 5: No, I don't have my own.

638
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 3: I don't have my own website. I'm on I'm on

639
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 3: the social media's so uh, you know, folks can find

640
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 3: me find me there.

641
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 8: Uh.

642
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's Professor Michael Nagel, and it's spelled n

643
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 2: E A g l E, but it's professor. Thank you

644
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: so much for your time tonight. I enjoyed talking with you.

645
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 2: I really You've been a great guest and I'd love

646
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: to have you back.

647
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 6: That would be great.

648
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate the time, Dan and I appreciate to

649
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 3: get a chance to talk with your audience.

650
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: Excellent. We'll talk again. We'll talk again. We get back

651
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: on and talk with doctor Chloe Carmichael about free speech

652
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: because she thinks free speech matters, and so do I.

653
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 2: Coming back on Night Side,