1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: It's nice, did ray, I'm going easy Boston's news radio. 2 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 2: What do you say? We do another hour with Michael 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 2: Kohin here he's the dean of the Massachusetts School of Law, 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: and we go in through the trials Big Trials to 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: Washington twenty twenty six with sidebars if you like the 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 2: number here at six, one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty. 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 2: Let's get right to Rita in Boston. Lovely Rita. How 8 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: do you do hi? 9 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 3: I can't hear you. 10 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 4: Oh Hi Rita, Oh Hi Rida, how you doing hi? 11 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 4: I have a couple of trials that I haven't heard about. 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 4: When is klausbind Oh? 13 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: Sure, don't go on to recap if you just joined us. 14 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: We started the show out. I gave Michael Khin a 15 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: little quiz on having him guess the foremost famous trial 16 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 2: ever I had a list of. It probably wasn't very accurate. 17 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 2: I think he was more correct than I was, but 18 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: it seemed to generate a lot of interest in folks 19 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 2: coming up with other trials. And there's another one that's 20 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 2: a very high one. 21 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 4: Good, there's another one blinks. 22 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: Oh. 23 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 5: I was wondering about that. I mean, I saw the 24 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 5: movie and I remember I don't know that the Brinks. 25 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 2: Garage that you said, you said Blinks Columbo. 26 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 5: Peter Fark was in Blink. It was a good movie. 27 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 5: And you know where that is is right at the 28 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 5: corner of North Washington and Commercial Street. I used to 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 5: park there all the time when I was in Boston 30 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 5: for for work and the like, and that's that it 31 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 5: actually is. What was the Brink's garage at the big event. 32 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 5: But was that a big trial? 33 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 2: I think it was. 34 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 5: A reasonably big trial. I mean I sort of remember. 35 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,680 Speaker 5: I can't remember which of the defendants it was, but 36 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 5: they had asked him sometime later, why do you why 37 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 5: do you rob banks? What's the answer? Because that's where 38 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 5: the money is. 39 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: Oh that's a you know, a fun criminal thing to say. Okay, 40 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 2: back to Luigi Menji pretty clear that I don't think 41 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 2: they're going to argue that he did it. But what 42 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 2: this could turn out to be as a trial, he 43 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: could use this to be a minor and put the 44 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 2: healthcare industry on trial. But there's also a chance that 45 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 2: he might get some sort of reduced sentence or maybe 46 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 2: maybe maybe even get lucky and get off. You were 47 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: kind of outlining how that might go. 48 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 5: Right, well, he'll have to argue in essence that he 49 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 5: didn't do it, so that there's room there for the 50 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 5: jury to be able to say not guilty. But in 51 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 5: many ways, while that might be a small part of it, 52 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 5: he's really going to argue to the jury that if 53 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 5: someone killed the healthcare executive, that healthcare companies have to 54 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 5: do a better job at helping us all. Now, it's 55 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 5: not a legally relevant Does that help him. 56 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 2: Or does he just make the jury, if there's a jury, 57 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: feel about him. 58 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 5: Oh no, I think it will help him. I think, don't. 59 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 5: Most people hate insurance carriers, and especially the medical insurance 60 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 5: who now makes us jump through hoops just to get 61 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 5: essential health care that we need. 62 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: But can the jury won't even have the latitude to 63 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 2: say not guilty. 64 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 5: Well, well, the latitude would be they would be if 65 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 5: they believe that the proof is insufficient to prove he 66 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 5: did it beyond a reasonable doubt, they would be able 67 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 5: to find him not guilty. 68 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: So it's a really blind eyes towards what is pretty 69 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: striking evidence. 70 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 5: That's what you're asking them to do, and instead say, are. 71 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 2: You sure that's what you see in that video there? Right? 72 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: Is it a little fuzzy. Really, are you positive it 73 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: could have been this guy or this guy? Are you sure? 74 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 5: Well, let me take it from a different perspective, and 75 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 5: I'm not justifying. 76 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 2: Maybe they could say the video was tampered with what. 77 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 5: He did at all, because it's incredibly cold blooded and 78 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 5: it's calculating, and if he did it, he deserves to 79 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 5: be in prison for the rest of his life. But 80 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 5: does anyone think that because of what he did, the 81 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 5: insurance companies might be a little more sympathetic to those 82 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 5: people who are very sick and needing an additional test 83 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 5: or additional mexics. 84 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: I just think they hire extra security. 85 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 5: Oh, I think they'll hire extra security. But I'm sure 86 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 5: they have already drive premiums up, but well, everything drives 87 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 5: premiums up. But I also think that it has to 88 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 5: make you take a step back and say, are we 89 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 5: doing the right thing here? And not just because we 90 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 5: can clearly see now it exposes us to serious danger, 91 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 5: but it does make you reassess your role as a 92 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,159 Speaker 5: human when you can see that there are people suffering 93 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 5: to the extent where they would take such drastic action. 94 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: It does draw attention to the cause. How here's a question, 95 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: how much would he be able to put the insurance 96 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: companies on trial during that trial. 97 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 5: It depends on the how much latitude the judge gives them. 98 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 5: Because technically your your cynicism is correct, your technically why 99 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 5: is would that be relevant with respect to whether you, 100 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 5: in fact did a premeditated murder of this individual? And 101 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 5: as one of the callers earlier indicated that when the 102 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 5: when the evidence is so clear, why why are we 103 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 5: going through with all the trial? So what's the degree 104 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 5: he's charged with. It's it's a first degree murder, Okay, So. 105 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: Maybe in an attempt to drop the degree, you could 106 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: try to go to state of mind. 107 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 5: Yes, and in order to. 108 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 2: Establish state of mind, you could talk about the hell 109 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 2: he went through and the hell that he's seen other 110 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: people go through at the hands of the insurance company. 111 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 5: Well, that's the that it would be true because now 112 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 5: you'd argue it's relevant because this is what set them off, 113 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 5: this is what put him in the place where he 114 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 5: really isn't responding criminally responds right, that's that, That's what 115 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 5: you would That's what I believe he's going to ultimately 116 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 5: try when the case moves forward this year, is to 117 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 5: try and justify slash minimize what he did. Uh and 118 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 5: and I think and this is what I think to 119 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 5: me is kind of interesting, the glorification of him. He 120 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 5: is a fan club. People are writing him, They there 121 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 5: when he's going into court, screaming his name. It's like 122 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 5: he's a beatle in back in the sixties. I do 123 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 5: think that there will be people receptive to the argument 124 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 5: that you know, that the greater good, argument that perhaps 125 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 5: this is striking a small blow for all of us 126 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 5: who are the victim of this, the healthcare crisis that 127 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 5: many of people are experienced. 128 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:06,359 Speaker 2: But that would only help him with the jury, that 129 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: greater good, that's correct sympathy. 130 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 5: But that's all he needs to help with, right, All 131 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 5: he needs to do with the jury is create a 132 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 5: reasonable doubt. 133 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: And how about you, what would you do if you're 134 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 2: on the jury. 135 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 5: I'm a lawyer. Yeah, I don't have a heart, no, no, 136 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 5: but you do have heart. 137 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 2: You've expressed pretty strong feelings about insurance companies at what 138 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 2: they do. 139 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: Well. 140 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 5: I think I'm just I think I'm speaking for myself 141 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 5: because I you know, my mother in law and others 142 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 5: that I know that are close to me have experienced 143 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 5: at times the brutality of our healthcare crisis, and I 144 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 5: do think and our premiums, right, we all know how 145 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 5: expensive that is. 146 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 2: I don't know, man, if they ever let you in 147 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 2: the jury, I think you might. I can't find him 148 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: not Now you might go with murder too. 149 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 5: I would listen carefully to the evidence, but it would 150 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 5: be tough to even sell it to me because I'm 151 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 5: a person that believes in the rule of law, of course, 152 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 5: and and as sympathetic as the argument might appear on 153 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 5: the face, I would I would be great, great, greatly challenged. 154 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 5: But let me let me do. 155 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: You remember oj was found not guilty. 156 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 5: That's right, that's right, and things happen, and let me 157 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,679 Speaker 5: let me put it slightly differently, though, if if if 158 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 5: I one of my my one of my brothers, my 159 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 5: mom had experienced some of the problems with insurance carriers 160 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 5: that have been recounted to me, I might see it 161 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 5: a little differently. And I think when you panel a jury, 162 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,599 Speaker 5: you may well find some people that have had problems 163 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 5: with the insurance carriers. They won't disclose it because it 164 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 5: would exclude them from the jury, but that will find 165 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 5: their way there, and you might you might find a 166 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 5: hung jury in a case like that. 167 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 2: Wow, Lee, would they retr umph? 168 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 5: Oh, you'd have to it's a it's a first degree Okay, PM, 169 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 5: you murder. 170 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 2: After this break, we're going to Lee in Milton's w 171 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:12,599 Speaker 2: b Z. 172 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's news radio. 173 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: We're talking top twenty top trials to watch in twenty 174 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: twenty six with Dean Michael Corner the Massachusetts School School 175 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: of Law. And we're kind of zipping through a lot 176 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 2: because that's been a very active hour. We'll talked to 177 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: Lee and Milton, and then we're gonna get just briefly 178 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: into Savannah Guthrie and Nick Ryner just a little bit. 179 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: There's not much there and a little bit on pretty 180 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: So we go to Lee in Milton High. 181 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 3: Lee, Hiight, how are you doing? Thanks a lot. Two 182 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: quick points. The conspirators of Abraham Lincoln. It was very 183 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 3: controversial because one of the people was a lady mayor. Sure, 184 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 3: no lady had ever been executed before the public thought, oh, no, 185 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 3: you can't, you can't execute a lady. But turns out Johnson, Yeah, 186 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 3: but no, but he did. And the second thing I 187 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 3: would say to me, the trial of John Brown and 188 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 3: the Civil War had to be probably the most famous 189 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: trial I think. Yeah, I mean there were so many 190 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 3: aspects to it. That's all right. 191 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: Especially given the context of the time. Right, those are big, 192 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: Those are really good. But I'm really pleased with the responses. 193 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 2: We didn't even ask the question. You got a lot 194 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 2: of great responses. Those are two good ones, Lee, Thank 195 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 2: you very much. Okay, we're free now to move on 196 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: and get to the Savannah Guthrie situation. Can you outline 197 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: that for me? 198 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 5: Yes, So, she it appears that her mother, her eighty 199 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 5: four year old mother, has been kidnapped. There's been a 200 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 5: couple of ransom notes and other issues with respect to 201 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 5: saying that they if they get some bitcoin, they'll tell 202 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 5: you who is depicted in the video that many people 203 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 5: have seen now. And so it appears that she's been kidnapped, 204 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 5: and the both the FBI and state and local authorities 205 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 5: are trying to figure out who did it and why, 206 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 5: and wherether she's still alive and where she would be. 207 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 5: So it's a really tragic case, especially if you think about, 208 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 5: even though she's a celebrity and in the public eye, 209 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 5: how how difficult this would be if it was any 210 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 5: of our mothers that is missing like this and likely kidnapped. 211 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 5: And now it's been quite a period of time where 212 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 5: she's missing, and it would you know, common sense tells 213 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 5: me the longer she's gone, the less likelihood she's. 214 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 2: Alive, the usual kidnapping, correct. 215 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 5: I don't think so. I mean, when you start to 216 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 5: think about usually you're going to have a ransom note 217 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 5: relatively quickly. If someone really has been kidnapped for profit, 218 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 5: that's what's likely. That's what's likely going to take place 219 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 5: because the objective is to obtain the money. Now does 220 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 5: make you wonder and there's all sorts of speculation out 221 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,959 Speaker 5: there whether that was the objective or somehow is a 222 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 5: connection to Savannah Guthrie that that's what the person might 223 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 5: be interested in. It's just it's a it's just a 224 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 5: horrible situation, and especially as the time goes on, there's 225 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 5: so little evidence that as to who might have done it. 226 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 5: And what's surprising to me is, you know, in this 227 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 5: day and age where there's a video everywhere, we think 228 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 5: about how the marathon bombers were apprehended, there's very little 229 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 5: electronic evidence that that would lead the police to be 230 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 5: able to find a suspect relatively quickly. 231 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: And you mentioned earlier we started a great big house 232 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 2: that she was in, right, that's her house. You're surprised 233 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: that somebody that would afford that house wouldn't have a 234 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 2: bunch of ring cameras or something. 235 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 5: Well, it is odd to me that this is not 236 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 5: It wouldn't think it's a question of resources, but that 237 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 5: house so large, with so much area around it, that 238 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 5: there wouldn't be more security, even in the relatively inexpensive 239 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 5: form of a few more ring cameras that might have 240 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 5: provided additional clues here. So it's a number of things 241 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 5: that make your pause and wonder where are we in 242 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 5: this case? And when you start to look at you know, 243 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 5: the criminal penalties for kidnapping, they are oftentimes quite severe 244 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 5: depending on what else takes place during the kidnapping, And 245 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 5: so that you would hope that ultimately, I'm sure that 246 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 5: they will be able to locate the person, and we 247 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 5: can only hope at this point that can locate her 248 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 5: still safe as well. 249 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: Now we know surprisingly little, both of you and I 250 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: know surprisingly little about Tyler. The situation in the state 251 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:15,120 Speaker 2: of Tyler Robinson, the accused killer of Charlie Kirk. What 252 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: can you tell us? 253 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 5: Well, I think that's to me not very little, because 254 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 5: I think people have seen the video. Uh there is 255 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 5: a video of a man coming down from the roof 256 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:34,119 Speaker 5: where they believe the shot originated, where that that ultimately 257 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 5: killed Charlie Kirk. And then within days they were able 258 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 5: to determine that who the shooter was. If I remember right, 259 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 5: it his father is the one that turned him in. 260 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: Do they deny that? 261 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 5: Do who deny it? 262 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: Does deny it? 263 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 5: Deny he did it? I think he does. Still he 264 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 5: still denies actually though I believe he does. But he 265 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 5: came in and spoke to them. Uh so I don't 266 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 5: know the extent of his statements to the police at 267 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 5: that point. But he's still you know, he hasn't pled guilty. 268 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 5: So there's still an upcoming trials scheduled for this year. 269 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 2: Now, how does it get decided? What is televised? 270 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 5: A well that state by state the federal First of all, 271 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 5: if it's tried, if it's a case in federal court, 272 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 5: the federal courts do not permit the televising trials. If 273 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 5: it's a state trial, then each state sets their own 274 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 5: rules on what to what level they allow the media 275 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 5: into the courtrooms to be able to show the trials 276 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 5: live on TV or even recorded, and. 277 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 2: One of the pros and cons oft televising. 278 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 5: I think I think it's all pros. I think people 279 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 5: should get to see how our justice system works. I 280 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 5: think we're all better off when we can examine if 281 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 5: things are working as we expect them and if they're not, 282 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 5: to call for changes. So I don't understand, especially Massachusetts 283 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 5: has been one of the leaders in this area to 284 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 5: be and we've done it, and there's a way to 285 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 5: do it so that you're not really disrupting, you. 286 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,359 Speaker 2: Know, circus. There was no circus at Karen. 287 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 5: Reid Well first was kind of tsion. It wasn't caused 288 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 5: by the television, correct outside I guess, Well, you could 289 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 5: argue that the second trial was affected by the televising 290 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 5: the first trial, and I'm sure that those that would 291 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 5: argue that, But you know, we've seen circuses, and we've 292 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 5: seen large crowds. We saw in the Bulger trial there 293 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 5: was a lot of media there, but that that was 294 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 5: a federal trial and it wasn't televised, So it's not 295 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 5: it's sometimes it's the the case itself that generates the 296 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 5: public interest. It's not necessarily the televising of it and 297 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 5: it and it shouldn't again because if the goal is 298 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 5: to make sure to at least we aspire to equal 299 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 5: justice under law, I think you're more likely to have 300 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 5: people to be able to when they can see justice work, 301 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 5: they have a greater confidence that justice is working the 302 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 5: way it should and that's I think. I think that's 303 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 5: really important that people are able to see that. 304 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: Six seven two thirty for one to join us. Next up, 305 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 2: the Nick Reiner case, said to be rained on murder 306 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 2: charges in connection with the death of his parents, Robin Michelle. 307 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: No trial date has yet been set as far as 308 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: I know. And this this Alan Jackson was working for 309 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: Nick for a while and now he's not. He said, 310 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 2: I'm not going to do it. First, what are the 311 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 2: where are we at in that trial? And then we'll 312 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: talk about Alan Jackson in his how he removed himself. 313 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 2: So what do we know about the Nick Hiner case. 314 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 5: Well, he's charged with killing his mom and dad. Rob Brier, 315 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 5: the actor, and from all the families, it's horribly said, 316 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 5: and the director of a number of great movies that 317 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 5: people have seen. When Harry met Sally and many others. 318 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 5: And they had worked with their son for many years 319 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 5: in and out of rehab and trying to get him 320 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,919 Speaker 5: to be able to live a life where he wasn't 321 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 5: abusing substances and those that never really seemed to be 322 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 5: able to break free of that. He also had a 323 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 5: number of what appears to be significant mental health issues. 324 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 5: And then now he's charged with stabbing his mother and 325 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 5: father to death. And so what has happened is that 326 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 5: and he's found relatively shortly after that, with you know, 327 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 5: the parents' blood still on him. It's going to be 328 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 5: a very difficult case to defend on you didn't do it. 329 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 5: It appears that the defense will be not guilty by 330 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 5: reason of insanity, So that. 331 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 2: Might work this time because it might be true. 332 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 5: Well, it might be true no matter what. Though, it's 333 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 5: always still a very difficult defense to sell to a 334 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 5: jury because oftentimes juries are stuck with the idea about 335 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 5: aren't we each responsible for our own actions? And the 336 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 5: fact is you can be mentally ill but not and 337 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 5: still be found legally liable for the killings. The fact 338 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 5: is is that mental illness doesn't give you a free pass. 339 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 5: What you're going to have to show is that as 340 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 5: a result of that mental illness, you couldn't understand the 341 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 5: difference between right and wrong, or that you really couldn't 342 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 5: conform your conduct to the law. And there's already evidence 343 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 5: in this case that he knew right from wrong because 344 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 5: he tried to cover it up. He tried he changed 345 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 5: his clothes. I mean, that's what the prosecution will argue. 346 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 5: So what you're going owing to likely have at some 347 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 5: point is significant psychiatric evidence on both sides of that 348 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 5: equation to see to try and convince the jury a 349 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 5: that he's guilty from the government side and b that 350 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 5: he's not guilty from the defendant side. 351 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: And so moving right on to the Alex Pretty situation, 352 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 2: I have some specific questions on this. Do federal agents 353 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 2: face any legal jeopardy for their actions regarding Alex Pretty? 354 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: Why or why not? 355 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 5: Okay, but a little background, right, this is the oh yeah, 356 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 5: I just assumed everybody knew. 357 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: You're very right. I shouldn't assume that. 358 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 5: This is the protester in Minnesota who was recently killed 359 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 5: by ICE agents, And I think people have probably seen 360 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 5: some of the video and that there were a number 361 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 5: of ICE agents trying to restrain him. It does appear 362 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 5: in the video that they he was whole. He did, 363 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 5: he was carrying a firearm, he had, he was licensed 364 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 5: to carry a firearm, and uh, the Second Amendment provides 365 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 5: that his right and Minnesota and provides protections for that 366 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 5: as well. But it appears that his gun was removed 367 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 5: by Ice agents from him and then while unarmed, he 368 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 5: was shot. 369 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 2: And even though one armed, was he doing something that 370 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,200 Speaker 2: might have endangered the officers lives? 371 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 5: Well, I think that's going to be in people's interpretation. 372 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 5: I mean, there there is some argument that he still 373 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 5: posed a danger, at least as they saw it visually. 374 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 5: I'm not sure I see it. There is there is 375 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 5: a video of a week or two before, kicking a 376 00:21:54,840 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 5: tail light out of a car, and so I I 377 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 5: don't think kicking a taillight necessarily poses a danger to 378 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,119 Speaker 5: your personal safety. And they had nothing to do with 379 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 5: the situation at the time, and it's certainly right, is 380 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 5: not related to something that happens a week later. So 381 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 5: the questions become with respect to that case. And I 382 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 5: think that people legitimately ask is, well, if they weren't 383 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 5: in fear of their own safety, how do you justify 384 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 5: using lethal force? Because that's not only is it lethal 385 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 5: force to use the gun to shoot him, but in 386 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 5: fact it's not just lethal. It killed him here, and 387 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 5: so the question is was the killing justified? And that's 388 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 5: where the case stands because there's been no charges yet. 389 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 5: The federal government is investigating it. Local authorities want to 390 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 5: investigate it. But as we all know, there's a significant 391 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 5: conflict now between the federal law enforcement officers and state 392 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 5: law enforcement officers when it comes to dealing with the 393 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 5: ice related issues. 394 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 2: Right, so would there be some sort of trial here? 395 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 5: Well, first, it's got to be. First, is likely going 396 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 5: to be some form of major investigation and even a 397 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 5: potential inquest and to determination whether criminal charges are justified, 398 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,359 Speaker 5: and then if they are, then you would see that 399 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 5: move forward ultimately in all likelihood to a trial stage. 400 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 2: Car We'll talk about this a little more after this break. 401 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 2: I do want to leave you with this, folks, what 402 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: do you think on this? Gun rights groups take exception 403 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: to the idea that one is accepting a heightened risk 404 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: of state violence if you choose to conceal carry, which 405 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: you know certainly inflame the gun rights groups. What do 406 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 2: you feel about that? Do you feel if you conceal carry, 407 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: that you have to accept a heightened risk of state violence. 408 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 2: That seems like a newish thing that not guns rights 409 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: organizations really were upset about, and other organizations as well. 410 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,439 Speaker 2: How about you six one, seven, two, five, four, ten, 411 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 2: thirty and plus we'll get to Florence in Groveland on WBZ. 412 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's 413 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: News Radio, continuing with Mike Cohin of the Massachusetts GOOLA law, 414 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 1: and we're talking about we're talking about big cases to 415 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: watch in twenty twenty six, and we're going. 416 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: To go to Florence in Groveland. How do you do Florence? 417 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 4: I Bradley and like, this isn't anything current, but I 418 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 4: remember a couple of books on something well known years ago, 419 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 4: the case of Barbara Graham. 420 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: I don't know about that one. 421 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,400 Speaker 4: That one, you don't, Yeah, that was well known. They 422 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 4: made it into a movie also, And there was one 423 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 4: years before that. A relative of mine had the books. 424 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 4: The other one was Kyle Chessman. No, do you recall that. 425 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 3: No. 426 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: I just looked up Barbara Graham. I googled the case 427 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: of barbar Graham. This is AI. I don't really trust AI. However, 428 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 2: given that you know that's a source. Barbara Graham nicknamed 429 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 2: Bloody Babs, is this the person was notorious American quer 430 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 2: execute in California Sam Quentin gas Chamber in fifty five 431 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 2: for her role in the murder of widow Mabel Monahan. 432 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, yeah, it was well known. The movie was 433 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 4: called I Want to Live. All right, let's they name? 434 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 5: All right, sounds familiar. 435 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 2: Well, thanks for those preciate that. Now we get back 436 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: to the situation. I'll just finish up with the situation 437 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 2: with Alex pddy. And you mentioned that there's some what's 438 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: the word where agents don't get blamed for things they 439 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: have to do. 440 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 5: Generally the Lauren there is an immunity that attaches to 441 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 5: a lot of law enforcement activity. 442 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: And does something like this perhaps supersede that. 443 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 5: No, yes, because it's not just that, you know, the 444 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 5: fact is is that it's not not all your actions 445 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 5: are going to be excusable if you act outside your training, 446 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 5: if you are you're the way I would see it, 447 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 5: we're going to tend to give the benefit of the 448 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 5: doubt to law enforcement. They have to do things with 449 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 5: split second timing, they have to do things that most 450 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 5: of us would never want to be faced with, so 451 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 5: the law and the courts tend to see it often 452 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 5: that way. The question is, are they so out of 453 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 5: bounds of what they should be doing that liability has 454 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 5: to attach, even criminal liability, I mean, frankly, think about 455 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 5: the state police officers that were just indicted the other 456 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 5: day from the training academy because of the recruit's death. 457 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 5: The fact is they're now charged with very serious felonies 458 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 5: because of their failure to properly oversee the training at 459 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 5: the academy, and that resulted in a cadet's death. So 460 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 5: if if in fact you're what you have done is 461 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,239 Speaker 5: so outside of what would be reasonably expected, then you 462 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 5: could be charged uh and and potentially would be. And 463 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,959 Speaker 5: what has happened out in Minnesota, if in fact the weapon, 464 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 5: if they had already seized the weapon from him, they 465 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 5: already were in essence restraining him to the point or 466 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 5: at least holding him to the point where he was 467 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 5: no longer a threat to their personal safety. Well, then 468 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 5: the argument is then you do not need nor are 469 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 5: you able to use deadly force under those circumstances. I 470 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 5: know some law enforcement folks and friends of mine and 471 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 5: they have been outspoken that some of what we're seeing 472 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 5: in Minnesota, and especially with this latest killing, is not 473 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 5: anything near what normal training requires. You de escalate the situation. 474 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 5: You don't escalate it. You don't use deadly force unless 475 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 5: you are actually inmortal danger or that person presents a 476 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 5: risk of mortal danger to others. And at least based 477 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 5: on what we presently know, it really that doesn't look 478 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 5: like there's such a situation existed that would warrant taking 479 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 5: his life. 480 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: Is there a thought to be any way that a 481 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 2: suspect can put an officer in mortal danger if the 482 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: suspect is unarmed well, or an automobile of course is 483 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: a weapon. 484 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 5: No, but you could, you could be of sufficient size 485 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 5: and power that even unarmed I would pose a serious 486 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 5: dangerous threat. But so it's so you can't just make 487 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 5: a blanket save and he had no weapon, He wasn't 488 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 5: a threat. Okay, people can be People can be threats 489 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 5: in and of themselves. 490 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: Very good. Now we're gonna play a little small ball 491 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 2: here and go back up to New Hampshire. Mass mancharger 492 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,160 Speaker 2: oh ui after New Hampshire snowmobile crash. And I bring 493 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 2: this up because I don't know if people know this, 494 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 2: and I didn't tell today that the alcohol laws, the 495 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: OEUI laws are pretty much the same for snowmobiles and automobiles. 496 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: I'm surprised to know that. Did you know that. 497 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 5: Well, it's a motor vehicle, right it is. I mean, 498 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 5: that's the thing to think about when we start to 499 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 5: think about driving under the influence. It's operation of a 500 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 5: motive vehicle. That that is what's required, And so the 501 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 5: question always comes in, well, what constitutes the motor vehicle? 502 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 5: But you know, we know that snowmobiles can run. It 503 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 5: is super dangerous. Oh sure, I see them on the 504 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 5: lake occasionally. I have a friend that is up in Colebrook, 505 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 5: New Hampshire, and he goes for hundreds of miles at 506 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 5: a time on very powerful sleds. So that you have 507 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 5: to be careful and operating those types of machines under 508 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 5: the influence of drugs or alcohol. Why shouldn't it be 509 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 5: just as dangerous as someone driving a motor vehicle. 510 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 2: Now I get the sense that it's not enforced as 511 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 2: strictly as automobiles, but I don't know. 512 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 5: Well, my friend Hutch says that he's been stopped, not drinking, 513 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 5: but for violating other four other laws pertaining to operating 514 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 5: on the. 515 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:05,480 Speaker 2: Trail light or something. 516 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, I forget what it was specifically, but there 517 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 5: are officials that actually do police it and check your 518 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 5: registration and check to make sure you're operating safely. So 519 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 5: it's not it's not that uncommon, especially in the as 520 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 5: we move further north from from Medford, mass Here, that 521 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 5: you're going to find that these violations are actually incurred 522 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 5: and people people will in fact enforce them. 523 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,239 Speaker 2: According to the Boston Globe, just to flesh this out 524 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: a little bit, Massachusetts man was allegedly drunk when he 525 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 2: crashed a snowmobile into a tree. It's not good in Moultenborough, 526 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 2: New Hampshire. Authorities were alerted to the crash it eleven 527 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 2: thirty three and paramedics took him in an ambulance ambulance. 528 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: Those of you who use snow machines know that they 529 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 2: are crazy dangerous. If you're going fast on the trail 530 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: in the world's it's bad news, and on a lake, 531 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 2: all kinds of bad stuff happens, So be careful, be 532 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: careful out there now. I'm gonna after actually after this break, 533 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: I'm gonna ask you some questions regarding the following. I 534 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: watch a lot of YouTube and there are a lot 535 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: of videos on YouTube regarding what to do if the 536 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 2: police stop you, and I watched one that said there 537 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 2: are four phrases you need to know, or four things 538 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 2: you need to know for mistakes not to make. I'm 539 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 2: gonna run those by you see if you agree with them, 540 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 2: and see if while that they may be true, in fact, 541 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: you know it still might not be a good idea. 542 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 2: We'll get your sort of real world take on that 543 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 2: after this on WBZ, You're. 544 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: On Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm WBZ Boston's news 545 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: radio Brody J. 546 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 3: For Dan. 547 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: Tonight, I have one more series of questions for our guest, 548 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 2: Michael Coin of the Massachusetts School of Law. Mike, I 549 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 2: watch a lot of YouTube videos and I sometimes watch 550 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 2: lawyer video and there are a lot of them on 551 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 2: there that say these are the fore mistakes you can 552 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 2: make when you get pulled over or just see these 553 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 2: phrases and this will help your being pulled over go 554 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 2: much more smoothly. And I want to run these by 555 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: you see if you thought they were reasonable, and I'll 556 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: have to be pretty quick and burn through them. Therefore, 557 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: number one, when you pulled over, the office will walk up, 558 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 2: that's the back daylight or the back bumper and then say, hey, 559 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 2: do you know why I pulled you over? And there's 560 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 2: certain things to not say. There's one thing to say, 561 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: and that would be no. Correct what you should say. 562 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 5: No, that's what you're saying. Yes, the answer should be no, 563 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 5: not anything else. Here's my and I basically do agree 564 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 5: with that because you don't want to give them support. 565 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 5: But here's here's my problem that I've learned as I've 566 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 5: gotten older. I don't need to be No. One needs 567 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 5: to be confrontational with the police office. 568 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: That's not confrontational. 569 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 5: That's just I don't know, No, that's not But I 570 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 5: have found that I'm best off saying yeah, I know. 571 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 5: Really I'm in a rush. You're a lawyer a rush. 572 00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,920 Speaker 5: I'm in a rush. I gotta slow down. 573 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 2: So you're going with the jeez, I'm a good guy. 574 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 2: This is I feel bad you busted me. Please let 575 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: me go. 576 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 5: I am the route I am these days simply because 577 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 5: I think their job is hot enough. If I've done wrong, 578 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 5: I ought to own it, and I don't. I don't 579 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 5: really drive badly anyway. So normally, even worst case I 580 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 5: might get a warning. But also I recognize what I 581 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 5: would do for me is different than what most people 582 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 5: should do. I do think people tell you, people tell me, 583 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 5: you know, oh, you know, a lot of people treat 584 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 5: you differently. 585 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: You're a lawyer, you're but even if you think that 586 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 2: you were speeding, maybe there may be something else that 587 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 2: he's pulling over for. So you really don't know. So 588 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: it's legit to say no. 589 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 5: I don't have a problem with this one, just saying no, 590 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 5: I don't know. I don't have any idea. But I 591 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 5: also can see the other side, and that oftentimes I 592 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 5: will do that. What's your next one? 593 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: As as the stop continues, you may be unsure of 594 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: what's going on. And the lawyer on the TV said 595 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 2: you should ask the following, Am I being detained? Or 596 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 2: am I free to go? 597 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 5: And I understand why you're saying that, so that you 598 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 5: can end the exchange now between the officer. But again, 599 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 5: but to me, that is confrontational, right because now the 600 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,280 Speaker 5: officer will know too what you're saying is you're done, 601 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 5: We're going to go. And but that and and for 602 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 5: a lot of folks that's reasonable. I could also see 603 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 5: that escalat escalating the situation beyond just beyond just a 604 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 5: friendly exchange for. 605 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 2: Some people, you're a super clean cut guy, and I realized, 606 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 2: and then maybe other people that are a little more 607 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 2: suspicious to you, who don't want to continue this thing 608 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: any longer than possible necessary because they might say something 609 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 2: dumb if they're not being detained. 610 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 5: But do you have anything? Have you done anything improper? 611 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 5: Do you have something to hide? Or you're just trying 612 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 5: to now be argumentative, because that's the thing is, you know, 613 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 5: sometimes people have had a couple of drinks. I don't 614 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 5: want to be engaged, Okay, I get it, But if 615 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 5: you haven't done anything, what's the harm in saying? 616 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 2: You know, what's the harm in chatting? Yeah? Because you 617 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 2: could say something dumb. Don't they talk to you to 618 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,279 Speaker 2: try to get you to make some sort of verbal. 619 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 5: Well, don't, yeah, don't volunteer information. There's nothing wrong with that. 620 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 5: I just don't invoke that. I'm not sure I would 621 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 5: invoke it. And I do think you have to be 622 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 5: careful because you're escalating the situation, all right, and law enforcement. 623 00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 2: Isn't they trying to be cool? I think okay. Next, Yes, 624 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:56,480 Speaker 2: this is another angle here. The officer you know you're 625 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: all being friendly friendly Michael Cory, Hey, yeah, I was. 626 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 2: I might have been speeding, okay. And then the officer say, 627 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 2: you know, Mike, do you mind if I looking in 628 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 2: your car? 629 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 5: No, that's where we're drawing the line. Whether it's your car, 630 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 5: whether they come knock on your door and ask to 631 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,919 Speaker 5: uh inspect your son's room. No, if you're if you're 632 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 5: now you're intruding into my private space, whether it's my vehicle. 633 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 5: Who knows what they can find? No, you don't know 634 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 5: what they can find. You mind if I phone your ones. 635 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: Relative could have left a drug in there or something. 636 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 5: You I have no idea that, and I'm not going 637 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 5: to take the chance if you need probable cause to 638 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 5: come in and inspect my home and examine things, and 639 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 5: and that's why I'm going to rely on that. 640 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 2: So the phrase to use is I do not consent 641 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 2: to any searches. And you need to be say it clear, 642 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 2: Lee so he can they can hear it on the 643 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: body cam. You have to invoke the right, You have 644 00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 2: to be clear about it. You have to invoke your right. 645 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 2: There was an actual case where somebody didn't. I clearly 646 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 2: provoke the right and it didn't. 647 00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 5: And I think you could be polite doing it. I'm sorry, 648 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:12,360 Speaker 5: I really can't agree to that. I'm sure you understand. 649 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 2: Officers. Yeah, he might understand because and here's the I've 650 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: always been told not to, so I have to do right. 651 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 2: I don't want to be foolish, right, not trying to 652 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 2: be right. You know what I just started. I just 653 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 2: started talking too much, all right, And I only have 654 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: thirty seconds. The final one was what was the final one? 655 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 5: I forget what the final one was, but I was 656 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 5: going to say, when you're having this exchange, you are concerned, 657 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 5: how about a video recording officer your mind? 658 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 2: If I record this the other one, I uh, if 659 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 2: the officer's chatty, you might say, you know, I'd rather 660 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 2: just kind of respectfully certain my fifth Amendment. Right, that's it. 661 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 2: We have ten seconds. What a great, great night. That 662 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 2: was a fast too hours. Thank you so much. As 663 00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 2: always always fun, All right, folks, I'm gonna talking about 664 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,840 Speaker 2: train travel Train Adventures next on WBZ