1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: To night. Michael Brown joins me here, the former FEMA 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: director of talk show host Michael Brown. Brownie, no, Brownie, 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: You're doing a heck of a job. The Weekend with 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: Michael Brown broadcasting from Denver, Colorado. Hey, it's the Weekend 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: with Michael Brown. Glad to have you joined the program today. 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: As usual. You know, we got rules of engagement on 7 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: the program and they're pretty easy to follow. The first 8 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: one is if you want to tell me something, you 9 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: want to ask me something, use the text line on 10 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: your phone. Just use your message app and the number 11 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: to use is three three one zero three three three 12 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: one zero three, keyword Mike or Michael. And then, as always, 13 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: if you can give me a follow one x formerly 14 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: Twitter at Michael Brown. Ussay, that'd be fantastic at Michael 15 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: Brown USA. So I want to start with a simple 16 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: thesis today, and that is a civic curriculum. A school 17 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: curriculum doesn't make a difference to me whether it's a 18 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 1: high school curriculum or a higher education curriculum. But when 19 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: a curriculum asks students to form judgments about some injustice, 20 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: then you got to tell the full story. And in 21 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: this case, I'm talking about slavery. And I'm talking about 22 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: slavery because it seems to me that once again Jasmine 23 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: Crockett running for Texas, running in Texas, Texas, and a 24 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,319 Speaker 1: bunch of other people running for Texas. Joy Reid was 25 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: on MSNBC this past week talking about how when the 26 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: founding fathers killed off something like, I don't know, ninety 27 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: percent of the indigenous people in the country when when 28 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: they started finding America. And the more I dug into that, 29 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: I realized, wame it. That's not true. We did not 30 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: kill upwards or approximately ninety percent of the population of 31 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: indigenous people when this country was founded, whether you want 32 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: to use the date of the Declaration of Independence seventeen 33 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: seventy six or the date that we signed the Constitution 34 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: in seventeen eighty nine. So they're already lying to you about, 35 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: of course, white Europeans, and in this case, and we'll 36 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: get to slavery in just a moment, but in the case, 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: to Joy read, she's lying to us about how white 38 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: Europeans they came here from America, settled and suddenly we 39 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: were the ones that were somehow destroying all the indigenous people. 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: And I just I find it offensive primarily because when 41 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: you make those kinds of claims, the audience that she 42 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: is playing to doesn't know any better. Listen to what 43 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: she says. 44 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 2: So you know, this nation was founded by killers who 45 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 2: slaughtered ninety percent of the Indigenous people, leeches who glombed 46 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 2: off of the indigenous, who taught them how to survive 47 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 2: in the wilderness, and then murdered them as their things 48 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: and then took all their land. And you want to 49 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: talk about entitlement, They felt entitled to own other people 50 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 2: and they didn't even want to pay taxes on it. 51 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: So they decided to have a whole war with Britain. 52 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: So we decided we didn't want to pay any taxes 53 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: on the people that own so we decide to have 54 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: a war with Britain. Did she ever hear of the 55 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: Tea Party, any hear of any of that? But to 56 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: claim somehow that the country was founded by killers who 57 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 1: slaughdered ninety percent of the Indigenous people is just blatantly false. 58 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: The claim that she makes misapplies a very well documented 59 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: approximately ninety percent population decline of Indigenous peoples across North 60 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 1: the entire North American continent, but it didn't occur in 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six or seventeen eighty nine. It occurred primarily 62 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: between fourteen ninety two to around sixteen hundred, and it 63 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: was because of Eurasian diseases like smallpox. Now, of course 64 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: there was some violence, because as these civilizations clash as 65 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: they come together, of course there's going to be some violence. 66 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: But anthropologists refer to this period between fourteen ninety two 67 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: and sixteen hundred as the Great Dying. But that predates 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: the founding of this country in seventeen eighty nine, and 69 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: it affected the entire hemisphere, not just what is now 70 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: the United States, where those pre fourteen ninety two estimates 71 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: range from somewhere between two and seven million people. Now, 72 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: specific estimates for the United States showed Native American populations 73 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: around about seventy six thousand and seventeen eighty nine, and 74 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: then that number grew. Now I want you to think 75 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 1: about this in the middle of territorial expansion. Now, of 76 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: course I understand there's incomplete census that may have excluded 77 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: a lot of untaxed tribes or people that we had, 78 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: tribes that we had not even discovered or run into yet. 79 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: But the number that anthropologists attribute to so called indigenous 80 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: or Native American Indian populations grew from about seventy seventy 81 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: six thousand in seventeen eighty nine to more than one 82 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty nine thousand by eighteen twenty five. And again, 83 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: as I said that way, that's when all this territorial 84 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: expansion and it is going on, and you would think 85 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: those numbers would have decreased, that is, if you believe 86 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: someone like Joy Reid. And then by the early eighteen hundreds, say, 87 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, eighteen twenty or so, there's no reliable data 88 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: anywhere that indicates a ninety percent drop between say seventeen 89 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: eighty nine or eighteen twenty. Declines from violence were significant later, 90 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: like in the eighteen thirties because of say as an 91 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: example of the Trail of Tears that killed thousands, but 92 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: that was again because of traveling from the Carolinas to 93 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: Indian territory and trying to settle there. But warfare accounted 94 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: for only about forty five thousand deaths between seventeen eighty 95 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: nine and eighteen ninety. Diseases remained the dominant factor in 96 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,479 Speaker 1: those ongoing declines through the eighteen hundreds. Now there was 97 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: displacement but it was not settlers, it was not white 98 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: Europeans directly killing some ninety percent in that specified period. 99 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 1: Early censuses in this country omitted most Native Americans, so 100 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: that does complicate the counts. But again I emphasize an 101 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: anthropologists report that there is no evidence this supports that 102 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: claims time frame or the mechanism to put that in perspective. 103 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: The reason I bring that up is because, again the 104 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: thesis is simple. If we're going to teach slavery, then 105 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: we ought to ask students to form judgments about injustice 106 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: by hearing the entire story. And in this country, classroom 107 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: units on slavery usually focus almost exclusively on the transatlantic 108 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,559 Speaker 1: traffic of Africans to this country, and I do believe 109 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: that story should be taught. But the same classrooms often 110 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 1: give little or no attention whatsoever to the centuries long 111 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: enslavement of European Christians by Islamic powers and North African 112 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: in North Africa, or say the Ottoman Realms, or for 113 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: that matter, of the Black Sea Step. The result is 114 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: an imbalance, and that imbalance significantly encourages a racialized narrative, 115 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: a victim and appressor rather than a human narrative of 116 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: power and predation, and that imbalance is bad for everybody. 117 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: Why because it miseducates black students by presenting a one 118 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: track account of bondage. And when you teach young mush 119 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: brain kids, particularly black kids, or any mush brain kids, 120 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: but when you teach them that it was all about bondage, 121 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: what does that do? That feeds the politics of grievance. 122 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: And when you are taught and fed and pounded into 123 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: your head grievance, that leads to societal problems. And at 124 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: the same time that it does that, it miseducates white 125 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: It miseducates other students by racing episodes in which there 126 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: are forebears suffer the same brutal fate all races suffer 127 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: from slavery. And to teach well, you have to teach completely. 128 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: You have to teach the entire story. Because the point 129 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: is not to minimize to minimize Atlantic slavery, It is 130 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: to contextualize it within the global institution of slavery, and 131 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: to make clear that the capacity to enslave was not 132 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: based on race. The capacity to slave, for human beings, 133 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: to enslave one another was a human condition. It was 134 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: not a racial decision, and many people miss that it's 135 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: the Weekend with Michael Brown. Don't forget. Text the word 136 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 1: Mike roor Michael to three to three ones zero three. 137 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: When we get back, let begin with a fact that 138 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: I think might surprise you. Hang tight, I'll be right back. 139 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Weekend with Michael Brown. Glad to 140 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: have you with me. You know, while we're at it, 141 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: part of the rules of engagement is I really would 142 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: appreciate you subscribing to the podcast. So on your podcast app, 143 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: search for the Situation with Michael Brown, the Situation with 144 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: Michael Brown. Once you find that, hit that subscribe button, 145 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: leave a five star review because that helps us with 146 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: the algorithm. And then that will download the weekday program 147 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: that I do in Denver from nine to noon Monday 148 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: through Friday, because it will also download this weekend program, 149 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: so you get all the Michael Brown radio. The theory is, 150 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: so let's go back to the story about how we're 151 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: teaching slavery in schools, and I said, I wanted to 152 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: give you a fact that I think might surprise many people. 153 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: Do you know it only about and I know that 154 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: the numbers are still significant, But you would think that 155 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: many people do think that, oh my gosh, it must 156 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: have been hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands, But 157 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 1: only out three hundred and eighty eight thousand Africans forced 158 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: onto ships in the Atlantic trade actually disembarked in North America. 159 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: Do you know? The vast majority of those Africans forced 160 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: onto those slave ships went to other countries and other continents. 161 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: So the number is small relative to the total. Yet 162 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: I know, and I'm not discounting, it's still a moral 163 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: catastrophe and it is still wrong. But you would think 164 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: that every black person that was put on a ship 165 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: and sent to the United States, that they all came 166 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: to the colonies and they all came to North America. 167 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: That's just simply not true. The smallness of the number matters, though, 168 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: when it comes to a curriculum and when it comes 169 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: to teaching the truth. It shows that the North American 170 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: story about slavery, while it is vitally important, is just 171 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: a regional fragment of the total global system of slavery 172 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: that was going on at that time. And I might 173 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: just add as a footnote, right now, slavery still exists today, 174 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: and why we don't want to recognize it, and why 175 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: we don't want to call it out is because it 176 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: is brutal, and today it mostly involves children, and we 177 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 1: find that offensy. So we're like, you know, the blind mice. 178 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,680 Speaker 1: We just cover our eyes, we cover our ears, and 179 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,079 Speaker 1: we don't want to hear or talk about it. But 180 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: the fragment, that vast majority that went elsewhere and the 181 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: fragment that came here cannot bear the whole moral weight 182 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: of that system without some distortion. And the curriculum that 183 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: treats the fragment as the whole invites confusion about causes, responsibility, 184 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: and remedies, and that leads many of the race baiting 185 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: individuals today to claim that we are the only peoples 186 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: in the entire world that ever engaged in slavery. And 187 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: none of this is meant to justify it. It's meant 188 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: to give you perspective. It's meant to tell you that, 189 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: you know, slavery was everywhere, and slavery still exists today. 190 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 1: But if you browbeat through a public education curriculum that 191 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: it was only the United States, it was only the Americans, 192 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: it was only you know, Europeans and white Europeans at that, 193 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: then of course you're going to have people who are 194 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: going to be absolutely filled with hatred and filled with grievance. 195 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: And we wonder why people act the way they do 196 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: today because one, even if they do get an education, 197 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: the education is not complete. Now, I want you to 198 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: think about the other fragment that is often missing in 199 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: this curriculum. Starting in the eighth century, Muslims from Algiers, Tunas, 200 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: Tripoli and the Moroccan ports. Do you know they rated 201 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: European coasts and see ships at sea, and what they 202 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: would do is they would carry off Christians for sale 203 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: in the North African markets. But we don't talk about that. 204 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: We don't teach that. And if we're gonna teach about slavery, 205 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,720 Speaker 1: just slavery, then we need to teach the entire story, 206 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: not just part of it. In the East, the Crimean 207 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: Tatar Cannot, a vassal of the Ottomans, conducted at regular 208 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: slave raids deep into what's now Ukraine, Poland and Russia, 209 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: and they funneled as many as four million white slaves 210 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: into Ottoman centers like into Istanbul, and historians estimate that 211 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: the Barbari states alone and slave more than a million 212 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: white Europeans from Ruffrey fifteen hundred to eighteen hundred, and 213 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: then when you add the Black Sea trade under the 214 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: Tatars and the Ottomans, the Cuban stief toll runs into 215 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: the millions. More So, this is not some brief episode. 216 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: It lasted in varying inten City for a millennia, and 217 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: it peaked in the seventeenth century. Now, despite majoring in 218 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: history and college, many people have almost no familiarity with 219 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: the Barbary Wars, and most people don't even know about 220 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: it unless you join the Marines and get in the military, 221 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: or you've got an excellent history teacher, either in high 222 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: school or in college. The Barbary Wars ended not because 223 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: the pirates repented, but because European navies and European empires 224 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: forced that issue of Christian slavery, culminating in the Barbary 225 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: Wars in the bombardment of Algiers in eighteen sixteen. So 226 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: it helps to make the matter vivid. In sixteen twenty seven, 227 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: raiders from Algiers and so La struck as far as Iceland, 228 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: kidnapping hundreds from villages as far north as the Arctic Circle, 229 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: and in the mid sixteen hundreds observers describe swaths of 230 00:14:55,080 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: Mediterranean coastline becoming thinly populated because life on the coast 231 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: had become perilous. It was dangerous to live on the 232 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: coast because the bobbery pirates were showing up and snapping 233 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: people off the beaches, off the coastlines, and then taking 234 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: them into slavery, back into Africa and the Middle East. So, 235 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: of course those populations moved inward. Algiers at times held 236 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of Christian slaves, and they labored in 237 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: the quarries, the dockyards, and or the corsair fleets. The 238 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: pattern in the East it wasn't it wasn't easier. Tartar raiding, 239 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: known as the harvesting of the step, repeatedly swept up 240 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: rural populations, tore apart families. They sold men, women and 241 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: children downstream into Ottoman markets. These facts do not diminish 242 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: the horror of the Middle Passage. What they do is 243 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: it enlarges the moral canvas, so that a student that 244 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: is studying slavery by a teacher whose willing to teach 245 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: the hold of history, can see the human institution of 246 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: slavery in its entire breadth, and not just part of it. 247 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: I know a natural objection arise. Was not the Atlantic 248 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: trade different because it was racialized chattel slavery that was 249 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: tied to plantations, and the barbary in the Ottoman slavery 250 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: was religious or strategic rather than racial, often because of 251 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: different legal forms and some prospects of ransom or assimilation. Yes, 252 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: there are differences in legal status, economic use, and ideological justification. 253 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: Those differences need to be taught in. They do belong 254 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 1: in the classroom. They clarify rather than blur. But difference 255 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: is not the same as not being commensurate. In both systems, 256 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: whether you're talking about the barbary or you're talking about 257 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: the North American trade slave trade, both of those institutions, 258 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: people were violently captured, uprooted, sold, compelled to labor, all 259 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: under the threat of punishment or death. And in both systems, 260 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: catless captives died in bondage. In both systems, entire regions 261 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: were reshaped by the fear and the fact of rating. So, 262 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: as I often say on this program, you can hold 263 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: two thoughts at once, and that would be that the 264 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: Atlantic system was uniquely large a scale in the early 265 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: modern Atlantic world, and that the Islamic enslavement of Europeans 266 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: was protracted and numerically significant across centuries in the Mediterranean 267 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 1: and in the Black Sea worlds. The hardest sentence in 268 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: moral education, the hardest sentences are often compound sentences. And 269 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: we ought to teach students how to diagram and to 270 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: parse a sentence, and how to hold two thoughts at once. 271 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: Neither one of these two stories, either that of the 272 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: Atlantic or that of the Islamic enslavement, are justified. But 273 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: teaching only one without teaching both is what leads to 274 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: a distortion and leads today to a complete misunderstanding of 275 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: where we are with slavery. Hang tight, I'll be right back. 276 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: To night. 277 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: Michael Brown joins me here, the former FEMA director talk. 278 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 2: Show host Michael Brown. 279 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: Brownie, no, Brownie, You're doing a heck of a job. 280 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: The Weekend with Michael Brown. Welcome back the Weekend with 281 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: Michael Brown. Glad to have you with me. I appreciate 282 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: you tuning in. It's always glad to have you with me. 283 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: Be sure and follow me on X at Michael Brown USA. 284 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 1: And of course, the text line is always open twenty 285 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: four hours a day, seven days a week. The text 286 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: line never stops the number on your message app three 287 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,400 Speaker 1: three one zero three three three one zero three keyword 288 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: Mike or Michael. Now, let's go back to this idea 289 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: that we had two worlds of slavery. We had the 290 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: North Atlantic slavery, which white Europeans going to Africa picking 291 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: up blacks, putting them on the slave ships bringing them 292 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: to North America. And then we had that occurring in 293 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,160 Speaker 1: the Islamic markets in Istanbul and Turkey and in those 294 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 1: parts of what we now call Eastern Europe. There's another 295 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 1: objection though. This other objection says that raising the history 296 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: of white slaves in Islamic markets that somehow when we 297 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: talk about that, we're trying to minimize the suffering of 298 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: black Americans. That is not the case that I am making. 299 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: I do not minimize. I contextualize. Context is not an excuse, 300 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: it's an orientation because it gives you a complete picture. 301 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: If a young mush brain student is taught only the 302 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: Atlantic story, they can easily slip into a crude syllogism. 303 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: Blacks were enslaved in the Americas. Therefore slavery is a 304 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: black phenomenon, and therefore whites are historical oppressors. And blacks 305 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: are historical victims, and therefore the present, right now in America, 306 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: we should restructure and redress all of these problems. Well, 307 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: when you think about that, every single step in that 308 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: chain is simplistic, overly simplistic. A young reader that's taught 309 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 1: the broader history is less likely to fall for reductive 310 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: politics of grievance and is more inclined to see that 311 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: slavery has been a human institution that corrupts whomever holds 312 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: that power, whomever engages in that activity. And if our 313 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: curricula teach both the Atlantic and the Islamic store worries, 314 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: then the lessons that emerge is not racial resentment. Instead, 315 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: I believe it will be a sober understanding of how 316 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: power praise upon the weak unless it's restrained by law 317 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:20,199 Speaker 1: and virtue, which, just as a parenthetical, is precisely what 318 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: the founding fathers in this country were trying to do. 319 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: So when you hear about you know Waily counted slaves 320 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: as part human that was because the founders knew that 321 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: they while they could rip the bandage of slavery off, 322 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: that that wound would not heal, and that the country 323 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: might never form. And so let's ease into it. It 324 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: wasn't to dehumanize them, it was to put them on 325 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: a path so that this country could eventually eliminate slavery. 326 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: I would just ask you to think out loud for 327 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: a moment. Do you think anything like that was going 328 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,439 Speaker 1: on in the Ottoman Empire. Do you think anything like 329 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: that was going on in Turkey or Istanbul or any 330 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 1: of those countries where the Islamic slavery was taking place 331 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: where they were enslaving Christians. Of course not so for 332 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: someone like joy Reid to criticize the Founding Fathers and oh, 333 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: we just killed all of these indigenous people and we 334 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: engage in the slave trade and it was all about economics, 335 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: completely ignores and intensifies and reinforces the grievance attitude that 336 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: many people have today. When they have that attitude because 337 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: they don't have the complete story, the curricular consequences then follow. First, 338 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: if you had a balanced udent on slavery, it should 339 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: include an extended treatment of the Barbary rating and the 340 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: Ottoman slave roots alongside the Middle Passage, and that treatment 341 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: should include the political economy of the Corsair States, the 342 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: role of the Ottoman slave markets the Tartar system on 343 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: the step. It should attract how captives were procured, how 344 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: they were used, how ransom worked, how often death or 345 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 1: assimilation was the endpoint, and how European states eventually suppressed 346 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: the trade by force. If you include that material, that 347 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 1: would correct the false inference that European societies were always 348 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: and only slave traders, when in fact Muslim societies. It 349 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: would also well, let me put it this way, it 350 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 1: would including that material would in correct the false inference 351 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: that European societies were always only the slave traders and 352 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: that Muslim societies were only victims of European imperialism. But 353 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: that's what many people believe today, and that's just simply 354 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: not true. It's so much more nuanced than that. And 355 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: you have to be able to hold both those thoughts 356 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: in your mind at the same time. But if they're 357 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: never taught both the thoughts, they can't hold both thoughts 358 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: in their mind. If they were, If they were taught 359 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: that and they were able to hold both thoughts in 360 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: their mind at the same time, it would help students 361 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:19,360 Speaker 1: understand how Anglo American abolitionism sits. Within a longer story, 362 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,239 Speaker 1: Excuse me, how that sits within a longer story in 363 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: which our naval power, our treaties, and our changing norms 364 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: brought multiple slave systems to an end. You really should 365 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: at some point, whether it's your children, your grandchildren, you're 366 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: great grandkids, I don't care. Or maybe just go to 367 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: the public school and asked to see because you know 368 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: you pay, you pay the taxes on it, and just say, hey, 369 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: I'd like to see the history taught in the tenth, eleventh, 370 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: or twelfth grade in high school. Or go to a 371 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: local college and then go to the index and look 372 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: up slavery and read the sections on slavery and then 373 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: come back and tell me whether or not you found 374 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 1: a balanced curriculum, because my guess is nine times out 375 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: of ten you will not. Now, the textbook is one 376 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: thing and the teacher is another. Because the teacher may 377 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: have a textbook that doesn't have both points of view, 378 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: doesn't have both historical contexts, yet does teach both those. 379 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 1: So be careful in making an assumption about how the 380 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: history is actually being taught. But quite honestly, most teachers 381 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: are going to teach from the textbook, and that's why 382 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: textbooks are so important. But there's another reason too. A 383 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: balanced historical unit in a school's curriculum should very carefully 384 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: compare numbers in timelines without turning some sort of moral 385 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: education into a perverse scorekeeping of pain. That's not what 386 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: this is about. The best recent syntheses agree that the 387 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: Atlantic trade ship about as I said earlier, about three 388 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,959 Speaker 1: hundred and eighty eight thousand slaves to North America. The 389 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: Barbary States likely enslaved over a million Europeans between fifteen 390 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: hundred and eighteen hundred and algiers. That was the largest market. 391 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: The Black Seas trade and of the Tatars plausibly added 392 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 1: several million more over five centuries, and with new quantitative 393 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 1: work suggesting a floor in the mid single digit millions. 394 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: The timelines don't perfectly overlap. Atlantic slavery as a transoceanic 395 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: system lasted probably, I would say, about three centuries. Islami 396 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,400 Speaker 1: enslavement of Europeans, while episodic we need just occurred occasionally 397 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 1: here and there, lasted more than three centuries. Is Lami 398 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: enslavement of Europeans endured in some form for closer to 399 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 1: a millennium, beginning in the early medieval period, and Indian 400 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century of course, I would argue, then 401 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: the twentieth and twenty first century slavery still continues, but 402 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: we turn a blind eye to it. If we gave 403 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: those contrasts, he would show students something crucial. What is 404 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 1: crucial that would be shown to those students. That is 405 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: that human beings have found many ways to rationalize and 406 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: to impose slavery, often for very long periods, and sometimes 407 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: on an industrial scale. So the moral is not that 408 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: one group owes another group of debt for all time. 409 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: It is that any group entrusted with unchecked power can 410 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: be tempted to treat outsiders as property, and thus you 411 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: would have tyranny, and thus you would have slavery. It's 412 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: the Weekend with Michael Brown. Text lines always open, number 413 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: three three one zero three, keyword Mike or Michael. I'll 414 00:27:53,840 --> 00:28:03,160 Speaker 1: close this out next. Hey, welcome back to the Weekend 415 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: with Michael Brown. Glad to have you with me. I 416 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: appreciate you tuning in. Remember text line three three one 417 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: zero three, keyword Michael, Michael. And if you like what 418 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: we do on Saturdays, you might like what I do 419 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: during the weekday also. And if you like that, on 420 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: your iHeart app, I air on I play or I 421 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: talk out of Denver, Colorado on a station called KOA 422 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: is from nine to noon mountain time, and you can 423 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: find KOA the Situation with Michael Brown at eight fifty 424 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: AM or ninety four point one FM. That's Monday through Friday, 425 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: nine to noon mountain time. If you like Saturday, you 426 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: got to listen during a week two. So lastly, a 427 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: balanced curriculum. I want to be candid about procurement. Where'd 428 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: they get these people in the Barbary and the Ottoman systems. 429 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: European captives were overwhelmingly seized in raids or they were 430 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: taking as war captives. There wasn't like a franchise network 431 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: of European coastal elites telling their neighbors to the North 432 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: African slave traders. The Coursairs themselves stormed ashore, and the 433 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: Tartars themselves rode in on their horses to take those people. 434 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: In the Atlantic system. By contrast, European and American traders 435 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: actually depended upon black African intermediaries to supply the captives 436 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: at the coastal ports. African politics and raiding confederations, some 437 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: influenced by prior Islamic slave training patterns, captured other Africans 438 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: and sold them to the Atlantic merchants. To say that 439 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: is not to deny European culpability. It's to teach the 440 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: honest structure of how the slave trade occurred. You see, 441 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: students should learn to distinguish between the roles of the collector, 442 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: the broker, the transporter, the buyer. I know these are 443 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: human beings, but this is and it's horrible to say that. 444 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: I think it helps you understand this. This is why 445 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: they were called chattel. They were just like any other commodity. 446 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: They were humans treated as commodities. You can't get much 447 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: more dehumanizing than that. But if that is how in 448 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: history it occurred, then that's how people need to understand, 449 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: because you have to understand how people looked upon it 450 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: at the time. You did have roles of the people 451 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: that went out and hunted and collected the people to 452 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: become slaves. You had those hunters that would turn them 453 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: over to the brokers, and the brokers would sell them 454 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: at the ports, and then the people that were going 455 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: to transport them would pay a fee or they would 456 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: get paid a fee to transport them, say to the 457 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: United States, and then there they would find a buyer. 458 00:30:55,760 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: It's dehumanizing, it's awful, but they should learn that participation 459 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 1: in evil can actually occur across many hands, including hands 460 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: of the same race as the victims. I think fourth, 461 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: and probably most important for civic formation and for historical purposes, 462 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 1: I think students ought to see how free nations ultimately 463 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: ended the multiple slave systems. You'll read the Marines or 464 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 1: breed the Marines him or listen to it. The United 465 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: States fought the Barbary pirates in two wars. Britain bombard 466 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: at Algiers to force the release of the captives, and 467 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: treaties were imposed against the slaving Europeans. European pressure and 468 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: later colonization of North Africa shut down the course air 469 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: markets in the Atlantic World. Britain and the United States 470 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: outlawed the trade in the early nineteenth century, and then 471 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: we abolish slavery after Civil War, in which we killed 472 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: six hundred thousand of our own people. Now that's not triumphalism. 473 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 1: It is instruction, it is fact, and it is history. 474 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: Free institutions can correct grave injustices. Sometimes they do that 475 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: by persuasion, sometimes they do it by force. But teaching 476 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: that story rightly tends to unite instead of divide. Why 477 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: is that because it emphasizes the shared commitments that cut 478 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: across race and cut across creed and religions, and that's 479 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,959 Speaker 1: what occurred in this country. I know that many will 480 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: worry that adding this content would give license to racists 481 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: who want to minimize the significance of black suffering. I 482 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: understand that. But the answer is not to censor. The 483 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: answer is to teach this with rigor, to make certain 484 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: that you teach each the facts. Because a teacher who 485 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 1: says both that three hundred and eighty eight thousand Africans 486 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,480 Speaker 1: were landed in North America and that millions of Europeans 487 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 1: were slaved across centuries in the Islamic world has not 488 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 1: said that slavery in America was trivial. That teacher has 489 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 1: said that slavery was universal. And a teacher who says 490 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: that African politics often supplied captives to European traders, that 491 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: teacher has not absolved the Europeans responsibility. That teacher has 492 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: broadened the map of responsibility, and that enables students to 493 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: see how evil acts and propagates through incentives. Education look, 494 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: education cannot inoculate against every abuse of history. But what 495 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: it can do is it can give students to tools 496 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: to distinguish, to distinguish between careful comparison and the stupid 497 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: phrase what about ism. A final point conservacivic rhetoric. No, 498 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: I think American students are too often told that the 499 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: labor of enslaved America, of the labor of enslaved Africans, 500 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: built American. Well, the truth is more specific than that 501 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: enslaved labor contributed significantly to certain regional economies and obviously 502 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: to certain sectors, especially in the South and especially in 503 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:31,360 Speaker 1: the plantation agricultural sector. Now, that contribution was real, but 504 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: it does not follow that the nation as a whole 505 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: was built primarily by slave labor, or that the nation's 506 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: moral standing is fatally compromised by that simple fact. This 507 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: country is built by many kinds of labor, both free 508 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: and unfree, both immigrant and native born, both black and white, 509 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: and by many kinds of capital, different ideas, different institutions. 510 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 1: So if one insists on reductive slogans, one can produce 511 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: them for any given region. I think the better course 512 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: is to retire the slogans and teach the particulars, because 513 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: when we do students of all backgrounds will see both 514 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: the horror, the absolute horror of Atlantic Channel slavery in 515 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: this country and the broader human story of slavery's reach worldwide. 516 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: And I think that perspective doesn't divide, it equips the 517 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: moral and the civil argument for reforming the curriculum. I 518 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: think is this, tell the global truth about slavery, and 519 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: do it with the same granular level that we already 520 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,720 Speaker 1: devote to the Atlantic trade. Second, make careful comparisons across 521 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: all the systems and all the different eras, all the millennia, 522 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: to show what is similar and show what is different. 523 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: And third, be precise about the numbers and the timelines, 524 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 1: but never lose sight the moral issue. And then fourth, 525 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 1: emphasize how lawful power a small or republican form of government, 526 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: how the Anglo American navy and military action helped end 527 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: the enslavement of Europeans as well as Africans. And then 528 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 1: ask students to reflect on a sobering constant of human life, 529 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: that constant, the temptation of the strong to prey upon 530 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: the weak and the countervailing power of institutions that bind 531 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:35,479 Speaker 1: the strong. That's the kind of curriculum that will help 532 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: them begin to understand the absolute power of self governance 533 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: that we participate in in this country, and the whole 534 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: attitude of grievance will start to dissipate because now people 535 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: will have a full and a complete understanding of this subject. 536 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: Just teach full history, teach complete history, because we gain 537 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 1: something precious. Students who know that millions of Europeans were 538 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: enslaved by Islamic powers, and that millions more Africans were 539 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: enslaved in the Atlantic world, they can now see a 540 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 1: more complex moral landscape, and they won't be susceptible to 541 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: ideologues who want to weaponize partial truths like Joy Reid. 542 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 1: Hang tight, I'll be right back.