1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Denay on WVS Boston's news radio fan. 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone. We're going to talk a little bit 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 2: about crime and punishment in Massachusetts. Callwealth of Massachusetts for many, 4 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 2: many years had capital punishment available in the judicial system. 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: Capital punishment was first ruled to be unconstitutional as cruel 6 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 2: and unusual punishment by the Massachusetts State Supreme Court. Federal 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: US Supreme Court outlawed capital punishment in the Firman versus 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: Georgia case back in nineteen seventy two. It was reinstated, 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 2: and there is the federal death penalty does exist, as 10 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: certainly Boston Bomber Number two knows. But in terms of 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: at the state level, the Massachusetts State Supreme Court for 12 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,480 Speaker 2: a long time has been on record against capital punishment. 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 2: It's been a long and winding road in which was 14 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: actually restored by the legendgislature was struck down again by 15 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: the State Supreme Court, and then in nineteen ninety seven, 16 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: by the margin of one vote, a restoration of capital 17 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: punishment in Massachusetts was defeated. It was supported then by 18 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 2: Governor Paul Salucci. Former governorm At Romney also attempted to 19 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: bring it back without success, So we don't have capital 20 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: punishment in Massachusetts. Many people when they went after and 21 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: have argued against capital punishment that said, well, you know, 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 2: capital punishment, it was the easy way out. What murderers 23 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 2: really fear is life without parole sentence. Well, that has 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: been taken care of a little bit by the State 25 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: Supreme Court here finding that if you're under the age 26 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 2: of eighteen and you've been convicted capital for an offense, 27 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: that that gives you life in life without parole. The 28 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: possibility at parole that has been repealed by the State 29 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: Supreme Court in a case called Mattis. We can get 30 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 2: into some of the specifics. But now now there's another 31 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 2: piece of legislation that is working its way through the 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: courts right not to the course to the legislature and 33 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,519 Speaker 2: with us A State Representative Jim O'Day of West Boyleston, 34 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: He and State Reversient of Many Cruz of Salem, Massachusetts, 35 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: introduced this bill House in nineteen twenty three to raise 36 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: the age of juvenile court jurisdiction from eighteen to twenty 37 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: one years of age. First of all, I want to 38 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 2: welcome Representative oday and wish you in advance a happy 39 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: Thanksgiving tomorrow with you and yours. 40 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: How are you tonight, Jim, well doing okay? Thank you 41 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 3: in the same to you, Happy Thanksgiving. I'm happy to 42 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 3: be here this evening. Appreciate the opportunity. 43 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So what would this in layman's terms? What would 44 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: this bill which has been reduced before, but it is 45 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: certainly alive at this point. Give us a little sense 46 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: of one what the bill would do if passed, and 47 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: where it stands at this point in the legislative process. 48 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 3: Joe, and I appreciated that you recognize my colleague Rep. Cruise, 49 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: but also a seen of a Creyton, Brendan Creighton from 50 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 3: Lynn who also is a Senate sponsor of this. Okay, 51 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: So yeah, So the bill actually would gradually raise the 52 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 3: age of juvenile jurisdiction to include eighteen nineteen twenty year olds, 53 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 3: And it wouldn't happen on the first year, say the 54 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: bill was passed at the end of this year. Wouldn't 55 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 3: go immediately to twenty including all eighteen nineteen twenty year olds. 56 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 3: It would would occur over a period around five years. 57 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 3: And I think probably that has some ability for continued 58 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 3: negotiations with what kind of a timeframe we might be 59 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: looking at, uh. Presently, the bill has been heard within 60 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks. It was heard in the 61 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 3: Joint Committee and the Judiciary, and they'll now do some 62 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 3: of their their work on this bill to see, you know, 63 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: what's happening with it, what sort of remarks have come 64 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: in since the actual testimony occurred, some in favor, some 65 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 3: against the suspect, and hopefully we will get a favorable 66 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 3: report coming out of that committee and we'll see where 67 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 3: it goes beyond there. As you mentioned, the bill has 68 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 3: been around a little bit. It was some activity with 69 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 3: the bill at the tail end. 70 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 4: Of last year. 71 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 3: The Senate actually had put it into the Economic Development Bill, 72 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: and unfortunately, at the time of the Conference Committee that 73 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 3: did not remain within the Economic Development buil, so that 74 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 3: would have only included eighteen year olds as it was 75 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 3: written in the Economic Development Bill and the Conference Committee. 76 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 3: But so we go through the process again and we're 77 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 3: hopeful that we can continue to build and get some 78 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 3: additional support and we'll see where we wind up here 79 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 3: at the end of the session. 80 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: Okay, So, from a practical point of view, if in 81 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: layman's language, and I realized that the procedural trek is 82 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: also always something that the legislators focus on, but from 83 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 2: a proceed from just forget from a procedural point of view, 84 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: but from a substantive point of view. If this bill 85 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: were to pass, what's the practical impact. My understanding is 86 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: that if it were to pass in you know, in 87 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: the form that I believe it's proposed, in, people who 88 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: commit crimes at the ages of nineteen and twenty and 89 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: all the way up say, till till the day they 90 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 2: turned twenty one would no longer be in the adult 91 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: criminal justice system. They would be automatically dealt with in 92 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: the juvenile justice system, which is very different. I mean the. 93 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: Justice I talked about crimes. That's certainly a broad spectrum, 94 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 3: right that could go from you know, someone being charged 95 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 3: with murder, in which this particular peace of legislation really 96 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: does not let anyone, so to speak, off the hooked 97 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 3: up up to including you know, someone is stealing a car. 98 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 3: So you know, there are areas of this bill that 99 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,559 Speaker 3: do not lose sight of heinous crimes for a second 100 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 3: degree murder, youthful offenders under those under those charges would 101 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 3: still be eligible. That's the right phrase to be considered 102 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 3: you know, having community an adult crime and could still 103 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: be you know, charged with and sentenced under first and 104 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 3: second degree murder. So if I could don cases. 105 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Jim, just again, I know there's a lot here, 106 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: and I want to I want to be fair on 107 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 2: this one. So obvious certain felonies that would not apply 108 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 2: here and and there would be no relief granted to 109 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: a juvenile suspect, such as murder manslaughter? Uh are those 110 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: specifically exempted? Or to look at it another way, what 111 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 2: what crimes? I know that, and I want to get 112 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: into the underlying reason, which is the development of the brain, 113 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: which we will get to, I promise. I'm just trying 114 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: to understand. Uh, it's if it's not all crimes for 115 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: you know, people who are eighteen, nineteen, and twenty, if 116 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 2: some of them statutorily are going to stay within the 117 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: adult system. If you could list whatever those crimes are 118 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: or give me a sense of those crimes, what I'm 119 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: concerned about is if this passes, does it then is 120 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: it up to the judges to rule on every specific case? 121 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 2: And as a defense lawyer, can I say, well, my 122 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: guy is accused of murder, but it's not a real murder, 123 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 2: and we think that the best it is is an 124 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: involuntary manslaughter, and therefore we want out of the adult 125 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: criminal justice system. We make a motion to go into 126 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: the juvenile system. And is that then up to a 127 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 2: judge or statutorily does it designate what's in and what's out? 128 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: If you know? 129 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:01,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, so, certainly for us in second degree murder cases, 130 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 3: that could, regardless of the age, even if it was 131 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 3: a fourteen year old or a thirteen year old, could 132 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 3: be charged as a youthful offender, which which would put 133 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: them on track to be charged as an adult, you know, 134 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 3: whether adult charges. 135 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: So when you say it could be, I don't want 136 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: to get hung up on words you say could be. 137 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: Is there a presumption that somebody who is under the 138 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: age of twenty one is assumed that they are going 139 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: to go into the criminal justice system, or is it 140 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 2: assumed they would go into the juvenile justice system if 141 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 2: this passed, and then on motion to a judge, they 142 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 2: could be moved from one to the other. I'm just 143 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 2: when you say that could be, that's what that's what 144 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: I'm getting a little hung up on it, and I 145 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: don't want to be hung up on it. 146 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, So teens as young as fourteen year olds right, 147 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 3: chadds Birus. The second degree murder would automatically be prosecuted, 148 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 3: automatically be prosecuted as adults in superior court and subject 149 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 3: to adult sentences. Raise the age does not change the 150 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 3: current statute regarding those offenses, those offenses that are currently 151 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: on the books. This bill would not change those statutes. 152 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,679 Speaker 2: So murder cases, what about rape cases. 153 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 3: There's a little so yes and no with the rape cases. 154 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 3: If there's certain certain results of power and bodily harm 155 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,839 Speaker 3: cause within that particular rape case, and that's getting a 156 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 3: little bit more into the weeds relative to that, and 157 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,599 Speaker 3: my wherewithal to speak reply to that fair enough. There 158 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 3: is some flexibility with a rape case, for sure. 159 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 2: Okay, let's do this. Let's take up on that point. 160 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: Let's just take a break. We've got to do a 161 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: couple of commercials, and we'll come back and we'll talk 162 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: a little bit more about the rationale behind the bill. 163 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: And obviously, if rape is sort of a marginal call, 164 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: there must be other cases less serious than rape, but 165 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: still serious cases now which automatically would be felonies that 166 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 2: the purpose of the law would be to put them 167 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 2: into the juvenile system. Can we agree on that? 168 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: Yes? 169 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: Fair enough? Yeah, fair enough. We'll get we will get 170 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: to the whole question of why the necessity of looking 171 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 2: at people between the ages of eighteen and twenty one 172 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: on some crimes. Differently with my guest, STAY Representative Jim O'Day, 173 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: who is from Worcester County and he is one of 174 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: the primary sponsors of this piece of legislation that he's 175 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 2: actually from West Boyleston, but he represents more than just 176 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: West Boylston. We'll get that piece of information from him 177 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 2: as well. Back on Nightside right after this, you're on. 178 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Boston's news radio. 179 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: Stay Representative Jim O'Davis with me, Jim, I know you're 180 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: from West Boyleston, but I always like to give members 181 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: of the legislation and opportunity to let folks know from 182 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: what community, what communities they represent. So if they're listening tonight, 183 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 2: what what communities do you represent besides your hometown of Boylston. 184 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so I represent the town of West Boylston and 185 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 3: then the Northern Session of the City of Worcester. 186 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: All right, Okay, good enough people they would know, So 187 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 2: let's talk about the underlying concern here. You you have 188 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: not picked numbers out of the ear. You're concerned about 189 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: with the development of the brain. I guess the Cerebral 190 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 2: Court text gets kind of complicated here, But basically you're 191 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 2: saying that kids, people who are eighteen, nineteen, and twenty 192 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: the brain hasn't fully developed. Is that, and that therefore 193 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: we can't hold them to a to a criminal justice 194 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: standard of adults. It sounds to me like, is what 195 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: you're saying. If I've mis characterized what this bill is 196 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: all about, please correct me. 197 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 3: No, that's pretty accurate, I would say. However, that's not 198 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 3: only I that says that, right, There's tons and tons 199 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 3: of research out there that demonstrates that young folks brains 200 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 3: develop up until the mid twenties. So it's not just 201 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 3: young folks, it's all of us who have come through 202 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 3: you know, the aging process. That's what the data shows us. 203 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 3: But I think a piece of what isn't being spoken 204 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 3: about a little bit too, is you know, a lot 205 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 3: of youth, you know a lot of our youth that 206 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: find themselves making you know, silly mistakes and that you know, 207 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 3: running a foul of the law. Just so so many 208 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: other conditions that we don't I really think we don't speak. 209 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 4: Enough about you know, you know, what type of. 210 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 3: Environment do they come from? What kind of foundations did 211 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 3: they have? Are they being raised by one parent, two parents? 212 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 5: You know? 213 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 3: Are they in the philostercare system, Are they being raised 214 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 3: by their grandparents? 215 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 5: You know? 216 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 3: Did they come from an affluent part of the community. 217 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 3: They come from a less affluent part of the community. 218 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: So when we're talking about you know, as. 219 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: You could, I just ask you one philosophical question that 220 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: I want to listen to or answer. What difference does 221 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: it make to the victim of crime as to who 222 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: has committed the crime against them? If somebody comes up 223 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: and beats me up, or beats you up, or someone 224 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: attacks one of your your family members, I don't really 225 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 2: care where that victim came from, to be honest with you, 226 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: and I'm probably cruel and hard hearted, but why not 227 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: focus a little more on the victim of crime? I 228 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: find that I find that missing sometimes in the analysis 229 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 2: that my friends in the Democratic Party provide. But go ahead, 230 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: I didn't mean to interrupt, just I. 231 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 3: Appreciate that that perspective. I just you know, certainly somebody 232 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 3: has been injured by somebody's misbehavior. I would be frustrated, 233 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 3: I would be disappointed. I'm not going to sit here 234 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 3: and say, however, that I'm not going to give them 235 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: somewhat of a benefit of what, you know, where are 236 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 3: they coming from, what's going on with them? And certainly 237 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 3: I would be disappointed that my son, my wife, one 238 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 3: of my family members was injured. But I'm not going 239 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 3: to just say, you know, I don't think I mean 240 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 3: and I do recognize too, having been a social worker 241 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: for twenty four years, that there are just some straight 242 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 3: out evil people in this world. I'm not denying that, okay, 243 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 3: but I don't know that everybody's evil, and I do 244 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 3: recognize that people make some really bad mistakes and cause 245 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 3: harm and hurt others. But I think, you know, we 246 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 3: should have some opportunity to have a second chance, now 247 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 3: you know, sixteen and eighteen second chances. I'm not so 248 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: sure where I feel on that one either, but I 249 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: do think we should find a way if it's possible. 250 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 3: And I do believe that we're talking about rehabilitation and 251 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: education with kids that have run a follow the law 252 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 3: at fifteen sixteen seventeen, that if we were to break 253 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: those cycles of misbehaving. Through education, through counseling, through rehabilitation, 254 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 3: we're hopefully going to make a difference and keep them 255 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 3: from continuing down that path and going into the adult system. 256 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 3: We're trying to avert that and avoid that. That's what 257 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about. 258 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: I understand. I think your focus is at a different location. 259 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: I mean, but with your analysis, and I respect your opinion, 260 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: but it seems to me we should have probably a 261 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: three or four tier system of justice, meaning if a 262 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: kid from an affluent family gets in trouble, no break whatsoever. 263 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: If a kid from a single parent family gets in trouble, 264 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 2: well we should make sure that he gets automatically twenty 265 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: percent of whatever time off, whatever time he or she 266 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 2: is sentenced to. I mean, you know, every I think 267 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: that's crazy, but that's that's my point of view, and 268 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 2: I'm not going to subject you to listeners here. I 269 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 2: think you've expressed expressed very clearly you have a big heart. 270 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: I wish I had his heart as big as yours. 271 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: But I disagree. I told you that earlier, and I'm 272 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: going to let you go, and I'm gonna wish you 273 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: happy Thanksgiving. If having expressed your opinions, and I'm going 274 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 2: to open it up to my phone calls for the 275 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 2: next half hour and give them a chance to comment 276 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: if they've if they've listened to us. And I think 277 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 2: the heart of the debate is what what we got 278 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: to get at. And I'm glad we had a civil 279 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 2: conversation tonight, and I hope we can have more. 280 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm always willing to come on and have a 281 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 3: conversation with you. You've always been very reasonable when we've 282 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 3: had our conversations, and I don't think you're co hotted. 283 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 3: I think we do see things a little bit differently. 284 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 3: But I just think continuing to put young people into 285 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 3: locked facilities isn't isn't fixing anything. It's not it's not 286 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 3: helping change the behavior. I'm not saying their behaviors are acceptable. 287 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 3: I'm saying that we have an opportunity to work on 288 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 3: making those changes. And in some kids and some adults, 289 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 3: you're not going to change them. I get that, but 290 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 3: when we can, I think we need to make the effort. 291 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: To do so. All Right, Jim, oday gave you the 292 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 2: last word. Thanks very much. I appreciate it. We'll talk 293 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 2: again and again. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family. 294 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 2: Thanks to you. 295 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 3: Thank you, You're welcome. 296 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 2: Okay, have a great night. Okay, we get back. We 297 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 2: got the news coming up here. I'm going to open 298 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: up the phone lines. I think we have just made 299 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,719 Speaker 2: it pretty clear. My priorities are with victims. My priorities 300 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:39,439 Speaker 2: are not with criminals. Okay, different criminals. Everybody understands that 301 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: we all come from different backgrounds. Some are born with 302 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 2: silver spoons in their mouths, others are born in very 303 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: difficult circumstances. But sometimes the people who born with the 304 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: silver spoons in their mouths are the biggest screw ups. 305 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: Not always, and sometimes the kids who are born would 306 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 2: seem to have the longest shot are the most successful. 307 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: And I think that we do not focus on victims. 308 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 2: I talked tonight with a woman who am who I'm 309 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: made to, who I will talk to next week. I'll explain, 310 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 2: but I want to hear from you. Are you tired? 311 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: Who are you more concerned about? The victims? Are the 312 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 2: perpetrators of crime? And I realized that some of you 313 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: are probably more inclined to support what I'm saying. But 314 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 2: I think it's pretty clear we have downplayed in this 315 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: society for about fifty years victims of crime, and we've 316 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: had more and more victims of crime. We had two 317 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: members of the West Virginia National Guard shot tonight, ambushed 318 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 2: in Washington, d C. About two or three blocks from 319 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 2: the White House. Six one seven, two, five, four, ten, 320 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 2: thirty six, one seven, nine three, one ten thirty. Let's 321 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 2: light these phone lines up. I'm prepared to go beyond ten, 322 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 2: but I want to hear from as many of you 323 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: as possible. And we will talk about Thanksgiving later, I promise, 324 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 2: and we'll talk talk about politics as a side dish 325 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 2: at your Thanksgiving dinner tomorrow. But I want to talk 326 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: about do you care about victims of crime? Because I 327 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 2: do deeply. I do deeply. Any one of us could 328 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 2: become victimized, and I want people to care about me 329 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: if I'm in that set of circumstances. But I think 330 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: we forget victims of crime, and we always focus on 331 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 2: the background of the offender, and we try to bend 332 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: over back which to find ways to minimize the damage 333 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 2: that the offenders have done to our society and to 334 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 2: individuals within our society. Six one, seven, two, five, four 335 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 2: ten thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty, 336 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: bring it right back on Nightside right after the news 337 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 2: a little bit late, but we wanted to be fair 338 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 2: to Representative Jim O'Day and I appreciate him coming on tonight. 339 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WZ Boston's 340 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: news radio. 341 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,439 Speaker 2: I mentioned early in my conversation with Jim O'Day that 342 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: we once had the death penalty in Massachusetts. Then we 343 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 2: got rid of it. Federal government got rid of it. 344 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 2: Federal government brought the death penalty back. We approved a 345 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 2: constitutional amendment here voters, but the Supreme Judicial Court, in 346 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 2: their infinite wisdom, struck that down. They tried to pass 347 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 2: it through the legislature and by one vote it failed. 348 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 2: Everybody says, oh, you know, make sure they serve life 349 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 2: without parole. The death penalty is the easy way out, 350 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 2: and that was an interesting argument. But as soon as 351 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: the death penalty was gone, they worked on getting rid 352 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 2: of life without parole. And they've gotten rid of life 353 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: parole without parole in many cases for people under the 354 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: age now of eighteen. And now they want to move 355 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: up juvenile offenders beyond the age of eighteen to twenty one. 356 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think people's brains scientifically are fully 357 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 2: developed until probably they are thirty five forty. Maybe they're 358 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: never fully developed. But I think it's it's just another 359 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 2: easy way out to basically take all of our concern 360 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,719 Speaker 2: away from the victims of a crime, the person who's raped, 361 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: the person who's murdered, the person who is pistol whipped, 362 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: the person who is run down and beaten up, and 363 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: the focus is on the offender. Our focus for forty 364 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: years has been in the wrong direction. Do I want 365 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: to be unfair to people? 366 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 3: Know? 367 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 2: Do I want to be fair to people? Of course 368 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 2: I do. Of course I do, because it could be 369 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: me and the criminal justice system. It could be remember 370 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: my family in the criminal justice system. However, however, we 371 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 2: have gone way too far in my opinion. Let's see 372 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,640 Speaker 2: what people have to say. I'm going to go first 373 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: up to dawn in Portsmouth asume it's Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Hi, Dn, 374 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:51,880 Speaker 2: how are you tonight, good Dan, Portsmorth, New Hampshire. Correct, Yes, yeah, 375 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 2: there is a Portsmouth, Rhode Island, but we have many 376 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 2: more listeners in Portsworth, New Hampshire. Go right ahead and 377 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 2: happy Thanksgiving to you. 378 00:23:59,280 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 379 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 3: And also. 380 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 5: I don't believe that if a person's brain is fully 381 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 5: developed or mostly developed, why should we put these soldiers 382 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 5: at eighteen in all kinds of situations? 383 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: Great point? Great point. Why should we allow people to 384 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: vote until their brain is fully developed? Why should we 385 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: allow kids to drive cars at the age of sixteen 386 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: if their brain isn't fully developed. I mean, I don't 387 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: think your brain has to be fully developed to understand 388 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: you don't kill people. You don't murder people, that you 389 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 2: don't rape women, that you don't assault elderly people, that 390 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 2: you don't engage in road rage. I mean, it's there's 391 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: a mindset, and Representative Odell is a good guy and 392 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 2: a good heart, but I think there's a mindset that 393 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 2: the focus is on we can somehow make things better 394 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 2: for the offender. I talked with a woman tonight who 395 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 2: you'll hear from next week. She was at an UH 396 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: at a conference. She's a she's a surgeon. She was 397 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 2: at a conference in Chicago, and she was simply walking 398 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 2: up a flight of stairs to get their rapid transit trained. 399 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: They call it the l out there or the or 400 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: the CTA. The Chicago Transit Authority guy turned around for 401 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: no reason at all and just smashed her in the face, 402 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: smashed her in the face for no reason whatsoever. And 403 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 2: when the police finally came, they asked her, do you 404 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 2: want to, you know, file charges, and she said, sure, yeah, 405 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: all file charges. The police never got back in touch 406 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 2: with her. They arrested the guy, never got back in 407 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 2: touch with her, and his cases disappeared. We have so 408 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: much sympathy for cold blooded criminals, criminals in this society. 409 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,359 Speaker 2: We've forgotten about the rights of victims. 410 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 3: You're right, you know, and. 411 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 2: I don't know how we change that around unless we 412 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 2: find other political leaders, particularly here in New England. Now 413 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 2: New Hampshire is a little different than Massachusetts, but it's 414 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 2: kind of going in the Massachusetts direction, Dawn, if you 415 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: want to know the truth. 416 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right. Yeh, you're right. It's going all over 417 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 3: the country. 418 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 5: I think. 419 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, there's still some states where people pay. And 420 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 2: of course there is a death penalty, as the Boston 421 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: bomber from the Boston Marathon in twenty thirteen now realizes. 422 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: But they're fighting that too. They fighted. The only criminal 423 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 2: who said, I'm going to drop my appeals. I want 424 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: the death penalty. Let me get me to the electric chair. 425 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: Was Timothy McVeigh, the guy that blew up the federal 426 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: building in Oklahoma City back in nineteen ninety five or 427 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 2: whatever year it was. Yeah, Terriblon, Don, please have a 428 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 2: great Thanksgiving. Thanks for calling in, and I hope you'll 429 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 2: continue to call more often. 430 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, Dan. 431 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 2: Thanks Don appreciate your call. We're going to take a break. 432 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 2: I got some open lines. Disappointed that I have any 433 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 2: open lines on this. I'm simply saying to you, you 434 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 2: got to as a society, we have to protect innocent people. Okay. 435 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 2: I want to be considerate of people who are in 436 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: the criminal justice system. I have worked as a journalist 437 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 2: to get people who were wrongfully convicted out of the 438 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 2: criminal justice system. So I do have a big heart. 439 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: I sort of downplayed the size of my heart, but 440 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: I have more of a heart for victims of crime 441 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 2: than I do for perpetrators of crime. And if we're 442 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 2: going to have a system that focuses on as my 443 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,719 Speaker 2: good friend Jim ode Representative Odey said, on how someone 444 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: is brought up, how many parents they have, what the 445 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: circumstances are, what into what socioeconomic set of circumstances they're born? 446 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 2: Then then why don't we just say that, Hey, if 447 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 2: you're born in such a circumstance, let's carry it to 448 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 2: its logical extreme. Do what you want. We're not going 449 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: to penalize you. If you want to deal drugs, deal drugs. 450 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 2: If you want to engage in murder, engage in murder, 451 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 2: and just let us know that you know you came 452 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,920 Speaker 2: from a tough set of circumstances. It is, I think, insane, 453 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 2: and it's been carried way too far, and someone has 454 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 2: to say it. I'm willing to say it. Six one seven, two, five, 455 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 2: four ten thirty six one seven nine three one ten thirty. 456 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 2: I will remind you that we are responsible for our actions, 457 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: and we have to accept responsibility for those actions. As 458 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 2: difficult as it is. When you park at a fire 459 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: hydrant and you get a ticket, you got to pay ticket. Okay, 460 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 2: it's no fun to pay the ticket. But guess what, 461 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 2: don't park at a fire hydrant. Coming back on Nightside. 462 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio. 463 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: All right, let's get back to the phones again. I 464 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: know it's Thanksgiving, Eve, I'm here. I hope you're there. 465 00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: Feel free. You know you have this this example in 466 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 2: Washington today two National Guard members were ambushed just blocks 467 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: from the White House. So I don't know anything about 468 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: this case other than what I read, but talk about 469 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: a brazen act of violence. Even the Mayor of Washington 470 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: has described it, according to the Associated Press, as a 471 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 2: targeted attack. I have no idea how old this person is. 472 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: I have no idea. The suspect is in custody, shot 473 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 2: and had wounds that they believe in not life threatening. 474 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 2: Both of the Guards members Guard members of fighting for 475 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: their lives. If you'd like to join the conversation here 476 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: six one, seven, two, five, four, ten thirty six one seven, 477 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: nine three one ten thirty. We will be changing topics 478 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 2: at the top of the hour. Unless you want to 479 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: talk about this one, Let's go to Mike in Plymouth. 480 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 2: Hey Mike, thanks for calling in. How are you tonight? 481 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 4: Good Dan, how are you happy Thanksgiving? 482 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 2: Happy Thanksgiving to you as well, and thanks very much 483 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 2: for being there. You know again, I choose to work 484 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 2: on Thanksgiving me because I think it's just an important 485 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 2: night to work and I hope that there are people 486 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 2: out there like you, and I can't tell you much. 487 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: I appreciate your calling, your thanks. 488 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 4: Well, I'm on my way home from work as well, 489 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 4: So more power to us. 490 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and I wanted to. 491 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 4: I just wanted to add a little perspective from that 492 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 4: of a defense attorney that work in this excellent For 493 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 4: over twenty years, I did not do superior court felony work. 494 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 4: I worked in the district courts down in the trenches, yep. 495 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 4: And I had the privilege of representing some the nicest 496 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 4: kids that were in the wrong place at the wrong 497 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 4: time or did something stupid. And I went to the 498 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 4: wall for those kids because I really believed that sometimes 499 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 4: they got taken advantage of, either by the police or 500 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 4: some other circumstances got them into a situation where they 501 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 4: just either made a bad mistake or they were caught 502 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 4: up in something that was bigger than them. And in 503 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 4: those cases, I went to the wall for those kids. 504 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 4: I had over thirty jury trials in twenty years. That's 505 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 4: not a lot in the district court, actually, but I 506 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 4: had my share of trials and I had a pretty 507 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 4: good record. I think I may have lost four or 508 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 4: five of those thirty. And the overwhelming perspective I can 509 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 4: bring to this is that most of the time the 510 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 4: clients that I went to the wall for most of 511 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 4: the time, they had a lot of family support and 512 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 4: they and they deserved, you know, to have their story 513 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 4: told in court. There are other cases where you couldn't 514 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 4: go to trial because the evidence was overwhelming against the client, 515 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 4: and in those situations, you try to make the best 516 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 4: deal that you could. And that's where I ran in 517 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 4: ran into a lot of clients that didn't want to 518 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 4: take responsibility for the actions and the situations that they 519 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 4: found themselves in. And I think every situation, every one 520 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 4: of these cases. 521 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 6: Have to be looked at individual. 522 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 4: There's no such thing as a cookie cutter disposition. In 523 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 4: a criminal case, you're talking about, you know, someone's liberty 524 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 4: being taken away. You have to look at everything individually. 525 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 4: But the overwhelming thing that I took away from my 526 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,719 Speaker 4: practice was that the kids that had family support, particularly 527 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 4: male father figure or older brother or uncle or grandfather's support, 528 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 4: tended to do better as far as following my recommendations 529 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 4: and doing what we wanted to do. The kids that 530 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 4: didn't have any family support, particularly you know, father figures 531 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 4: or male figures in their lives, they wanted to do 532 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 4: things their own way and insisted on, you know, a 533 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 4: disposition that might not necessarily be in their best interest. 534 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 4: And I found that there was a lot of resistance 535 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 4: in certain cases for kids not wanting to take responsibility. 536 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 4: There's only so much you can do as a defense 537 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 4: attorney when when the police have you dead to right, No, 538 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 4: I understand. 539 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: That, And by the way, I just want to quickly 540 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: comment on something you said, which with me is important, 541 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 2: is that there's there's sort of what's in the best 542 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: interest of the kid or the defendant, the particularly if 543 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 2: it's a juvenile defendant short term and long term. It 544 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 2: might be best for that kids short term to get 545 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: a quaff, get continues out of finding and go back 546 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: out in the street and do the same thing that night. 547 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 2: It may be in his or her interest to accept 548 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: the responsibility. Maybe you'll go on probation or maybe even 549 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 2: spend a little bit of time with some counseling, or 550 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 2: or they've been spend a little bit of time, depending 551 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 2: upon the age and the circumstances in prison or in jail. 552 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 4: Right. 553 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 2: And so that's where I am. But what my concern 554 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 2: is that I just think that we have lost focus 555 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 2: as a society, not as the criminal defense bar because 556 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 2: as you and I both know, I'm a lawyer to 557 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: as we both know, our obligation is to make the 558 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 2: prosecution prove all the elements of the case beyond a 559 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. It's not up to us to you know, 560 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: basically push our client out there and say, well, yeah, 561 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 2: he actually did. 562 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 4: We don't have to prove innocence. 563 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: We don't have to prove The only time I had 564 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 2: to prove innocence was working on the FBI case where 565 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 2: we got the four men out of prison who had 566 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 2: been wrongfully and intentionally convicted by corrupt agents of the FBI. 567 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,879 Speaker 2: But put that aside, and the point that I'm trying 568 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 2: to make is that at the legislature there's a lot 569 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 2: of defense lawyers with all due respected defense lawyers, and 570 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 2: they're looking for as much elbow room as possible to 571 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 2: the clients. And I'm not sure it's good for society. 572 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 2: I'm not even sure if it's best for their clients exactly. 573 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 4: This proposed legislation is a function of the blue Democratic 574 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 4: run state legislature that we have in the state. This 575 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 4: law would never fly in Florida or Alabama or someplace 576 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 4: like that. You know, this is this is the culture 577 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 4: that we live in at the state House. Uh, you know, 578 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 4: they want to you know, uh, avail themselves as many 579 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 4: outs you know, for defendants as possible, and they think 580 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,600 Speaker 4: that I get it. There's a certain amount of science 581 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,320 Speaker 4: that says that the juvenile, a juvenile's brain takes longer, 582 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 4: a long time to develop, and they don't always make 583 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 4: the best decisions at certain ages. 584 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 6: And that's why you do have to look at these 585 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 6: cases individually. 586 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: You know. 587 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 4: But uh, there's also the argument to be made that 588 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 4: every kid whose brain isn't fully developed does and make 589 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 4: go out and commit a violent crime. And those that do, 590 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 4: a lot of them have been in the system for 591 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 4: a while and have been given other chances exactly, and 592 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 4: if I might get to them in adult court. 593 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 6: By the time I get to these kids in adult court, 594 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 6: they've had a few chances in the juvenile system, but 595 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 6: they start with a clean record in the adult court. 596 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 4: And uh that that juvenile record can't be used against them, 597 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,239 Speaker 4: but it factors into the fact that they realized, you know, 598 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 4: they might be able to get away with something again 599 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 4: because they did in the juvenile system. 600 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 2: Got Mike. There should be both defense lawyers like you 601 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 2: who you know who who represent their clients with vigor 602 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 2: and with passion, but also understand that that life is 603 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 2: going to be impacted as to what advice you give them. 604 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,840 Speaker 2: And it sounds to me like you gave your clients 605 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: great advice. Mike. I'm up against it. I got to 606 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 2: just about enough time to wish you a happy Thanksgiving 607 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: to you and yours, and hope you continue to listen 608 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 2: and call night Side any time I will. 609 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 4: Dan, thank you for taking a call. 610 00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 2: You're very welcome. All right, we're done for this. We're 611 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 2: going to get back to you right after the ten 612 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 2: o'clock news with a different topic. We'll be back right 613 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 2: after the tent