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Speaker 1: A Trumpian headache. I enjoyed. You know you and I

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Speaker 1: are in the minority on this issue. Judge of Paul Tunnel.

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Speaker 1: I think you know that, don't you.

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Speaker 2: I do, and it's such a head scratcher to me.

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Speaker 2: I even included in there a paragraph that this has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with Donald Trump, has nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with whether you like him or not. It has nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with whether you think it's a maudible goal

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Speaker 2: or not.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: This has to do with the core American value, which

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Speaker 2: is due process of law, the very reason we fought

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Speaker 2: the American Revolution, the reason they wrote the Constitution, the

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Speaker 2: core of the Fifth Amendment consistently interpreted for two hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty years to prevent what's happening right now. Even

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Speaker 2: the Nazi saboteurs who were caught in Long Island and

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Speaker 2: Florida during World War Two were given a trial before execution.

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Speaker 1: No person should I'll be a pride of liberty or

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Speaker 1: property without due process of law. Now, right now, there

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Speaker 1: are a whole bunch of people when I've heard this

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Speaker 1: argument before, you're honor, so I really want to dive

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Speaker 1: right on into it that are saying, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: it's the United States Constitution. The Constitution provides protection of

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Speaker 1: course and liberties and freedoms to US citizens. We can't

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Speaker 1: extend it out to every human being in the world.

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Speaker 1: That is not your interpretation of no person shall be

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Speaker 1: to priv life, liberty party. That's everybody.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's not my interpretation, that's the Supreme Court's interpretation.

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Speaker 2: The word is person, it's not Americans. I didn't put

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Speaker 2: this in the article, and of course I won't mention

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Speaker 2: his name, but I received an email from a very

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Speaker 2: well known retired admiral. I don't know if it's two

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Speaker 2: stars or three stars, but it's the second or third

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Speaker 2: level up there who read a prior piece that I

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Speaker 2: wrote about this before we knew about the two survivors.

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Speaker 2: The key to my piece this week is that there

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Speaker 2: are two survivors, which is the Trumpian headache, because without

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Speaker 2: leaving their home countries, they can commence an action under

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Speaker 2: the Civil Rights Act for the use of official power

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Speaker 2: to attempt to kill them and to kidnap them. The

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Speaker 2: admiral said to me, we stopped boats all the time.

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Speaker 2: We did so only when we had probable cause. We

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Speaker 2: never killed anybody if there was probable cause, if we

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Speaker 2: found drugs. We seized the boat, We arrested the people,

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Speaker 2: We turned them over the Coastguard have turned them over

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Speaker 2: to the Department of Justice. We don't know what happened

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Speaker 2: to them. It wasn't our job, but we assumed they

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Speaker 2: had a trial. If we had been ordered to kill people,

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Speaker 2: these stars on my shoulder would have been thrown on

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Speaker 2: the Secretary of Defense's desk.

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Speaker 1: Right, we need to stand as a higher, nobler country.

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Speaker 1: The idea of due process, for me, lends credibility to

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Speaker 1: our actions. If there's going to be accountability by way

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Speaker 1: of punishment or even in certain cases. And I don't

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Speaker 1: believe in the death penalty Judge of Polotan, but if

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Speaker 1: we're going to execute somebody, you're entitled to due process.

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Speaker 1: It sends a message to the world that we're not crazy,

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Speaker 1: we're not rogue, we're not just running around blowing up

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Speaker 1: every human being on the planet that we find offence with.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and to your point, as I said

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Speaker 1: earlier in the program, I've said before, Okay, you're seeing

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Speaker 1: a submarine, it's fifteen hundred two thousand miles away. You've

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Speaker 1: got you've got video of it, you've got satellite tracking

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Speaker 1: of it. Keep your eye on it until it gets

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Speaker 1: into US waters and it's sending the Coastguard and go

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Speaker 1: through the process that you just talked about. We don't

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Speaker 1: have the death penalty for drug dealing here in the

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Speaker 1: United States, your honor right, right.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I don't know anything about these two survivors.

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Speaker 2: I don't know about their physical slash medical condition. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if they are the type of people that

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Speaker 2: would file this complaint. But I do know that there

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Speaker 2: are civil rights lawyers trying to find them. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: because they need a real living plaintiff who has standing.

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Speaker 2: And from that story I told you I put in

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Speaker 2: there about Don Alacki's father, where the judge says, you know, sir,

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Speaker 2: you don't have standing, there's no harm to you. Your

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Speaker 2: son would have standing. Of course, the son was obliterated

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Speaker 2: before he could get to a federal court. It is

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Speaker 2: clear that these two people have standing to bring an

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Speaker 2: action against the government, and that would of course litigate this,

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Speaker 2: that would put before a federal judge. Trump's claimed powers

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Speaker 2: to kill people in the high seas if they can

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Speaker 2: get these folks to become plaintiffs, right, But this is

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Speaker 2: the nightmare for the DOJ, I can only imagine, because

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Speaker 2: they keep everything secret, that they had a great debate

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Speaker 2: about what do we do with these people? The President says,

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Speaker 2: they're drug dealers? Can we just let them go? Do

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Speaker 2: we have enough evidence to arrest them? Do we have

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Speaker 2: enough evidence to prosecute them? These must have been the

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Speaker 2: types of questions that the DOJ was debating in the

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Speaker 2: past week when they took the safe course of repatriating them,

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Speaker 2: because if they brought them to the United States, well

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Speaker 2: then there's no question but that there'd be litigation.

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Speaker 1: I almost want to hasten to mention Guantanamo Bay. We

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Speaker 1: had some due process problems there too as well. We've

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Speaker 1: talked many times about the torture that went on there

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Speaker 1: and the problems associated with that. I guess I have

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Speaker 1: to ask you.

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Speaker 2: That Guantanamo Bay. How many trials have they had at

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Speaker 2: Guantanamo obey emanating from nine to eleven?

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Speaker 1: There you go zero?

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Speaker 2: Remember zero?

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Speaker 1: Zero? What would the form of the and I know

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Speaker 1: there's a lawyer out there that would love to find

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Speaker 1: these guys, As you pointed out, what would the nature

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Speaker 1: of the claim against the US government? Is a civil

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Speaker 1: rights violation? Do process violation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, Now, normally this is a criminal case. Normally,

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Speaker 2: a government agent who used the force of law illegally

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Speaker 2: to attempt to kill somebody or to kidnap them would

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Speaker 2: be prosecuted by the DOJ. Obviously, the DOJ is not

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Speaker 2: going to prosecute the president or Pete hag Seth or

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Speaker 2: an admiral or even a guy in a Navy jet

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Speaker 2: that dropped the bombs at the boat. So it would

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Speaker 2: be a civil case alleging the undercolor of law, the

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Speaker 2: government tried to kill them. You know, this wasn't Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump with a personal pistol. This was the government trying

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Speaker 2: to kill them. And then this was the government kidnapping them.

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Speaker 2: This is basically a Bivens case, Brian, Now the court

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Speaker 2: has made these Bivens cases. Bivens is a famous case

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Speaker 2: from the sixties in which a person was terribly beaten

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Speaker 2: up in their home ran sect and their freedom curtailed

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Speaker 2: by federal agents who never identified themselves. I never even

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Speaker 2: acknowledged that they work for the federal government. Bivens eventually succeeded.

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Speaker 2: But these types of cases suing the government for using

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Speaker 2: the powers of the law illegally to harm a person

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Speaker 2: are not favored by the courts and are difficult to prosecute.

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Speaker 2: But this is one that ought, in my view to

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Speaker 2: be aired because Congress is gutless. The president intimidates everybody

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Speaker 2: around him, and he can't just keep killing people again.

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Speaker 1: You and I are not going to argue about this.

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Speaker 1: We have Congressmanassy and Senator Ran Palmer's side anyway, which

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Speaker 1: I think gives us street credibility. Judge Edna Polton, at

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Speaker 1: least among my listeners. They can feel free to disagree,

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Speaker 1: but expedience is no justification for tossing out constitutional rights.

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Speaker 1: I'll hang my hat on that all day.

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Speaker 2: Log.

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Speaker 1: Jun Jenita Polaitano, beautiful insight, full article you wrote coming

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Speaker 1: out tonight a Trumpian headache. I'm fortunate to get enough earlier.

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Speaker 1: Who's on the show today judging freedom? You're honor.

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Speaker 2: I have Aaron Monte, the Great Phil Giraldi is the

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Speaker 2: XCIA agent who told George W. Bush Saddam Hussein does

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Speaker 2: not have weapons of mass destruction and Bush threw them out.

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Speaker 2: And the Great Professor Jeffrey Sachs, Phil on Venezuela, Aaron

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Speaker 2: on Gaza, Professor Sachs on what's Israel's next move.

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Speaker 1: Well, interesting conversations. As always, I'll encourage my listeners to

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Speaker 1: check it out wherever they get their podcast, Judging Freedom

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Speaker 1: and always tune into fifty five Casey Morning Show every

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Speaker 1: Wednesday at eight thirty Judging and Apolo Tan And thank

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Speaker 1: you for your time, as always,