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Speaker 1: Ato Mine the fifty five Garrise De Talk Station, A

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Speaker 1: very happy Friday to everybody. Brian Thomas right here hosts

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Speaker 1: the fifty five Caarasee Morning Show, reminding you fifty five

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Speaker 1: Karasee dot com get podcasts and please download that. iHeartMedia,

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Speaker 1: get all your content whatever you happen to be at

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Speaker 1: any time. And it is so nice to look up

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Speaker 1: and see Todd Zenzer in studio. Citizen Watchdog is the

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Speaker 1: name of his podcast, produced by Joe Strecker. He's always

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Speaker 1: following what I will just boil down to call shenanigans

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Speaker 1: in the city of Cincinnati. He looks for records, he

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Speaker 1: follows the money, He asks for documents that are supposed

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Speaker 1: to exist. He finds out that, well, we don't have

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Speaker 1: a very transparent administration in spite of the fact I

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Speaker 1: believe have to have prowoll Ran on transparency. We will

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Speaker 1: get to a con and a point on that later

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Speaker 1: in the program. Todd Zenzer, it is a pleasure to

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Speaker 1: have you back in former Inspector General for the United

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Speaker 1: States of America. Good to see you. Thank you, Brian,

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Speaker 1: and thank you so much. And I sang your praises

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Speaker 1: this morning. I don't think the city of Cincinnati knows

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Speaker 1: how blessed they are to have you and your understanding

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Speaker 1: of how things work behind the scenes, coupled with in retirement,

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Speaker 1: your willingness to go after and look for all these

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Speaker 1: things and do all this leg work, and have you

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Speaker 1: lifting to get the answers that you're looking for for

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Speaker 1: the residents of the city, Like, what the hell are

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Speaker 1: tax payer dollars being used for?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what people want. My view is

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Speaker 2: if people don't mind paying taxes as long as the

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Speaker 2: taxes that they're paying are being used properly and for

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Speaker 2: things that are needed to be done, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, in the private industry world, we

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Speaker 1: get to pick and choose who is going to be

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Speaker 1: the recipient of our hard earned dollars. We don't get

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Speaker 1: any choice in the matter. At minimum, these people should

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Speaker 1: have some measure of understanding or some concept of a

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Speaker 1: fiduciary obligation that it owes to you, me and everybody

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Speaker 1: else who works and pays taxes to keep them well,

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Speaker 1: keep them in their salaries and all these other programs

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Speaker 1: that we fund.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. And actually that's one of the

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Speaker 2: big issues I have with the way that iris Rollie

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Speaker 2: was contracted with and the way they manage that contract.

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Speaker 2: I have to believe that the contracting staff and the

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Speaker 2: management staff at the city are better than that. Did

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Speaker 2: they They let they let a very lax process go

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Speaker 2: through and you know, make all these payments to this contractor,

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Speaker 2: and the paperwork is terrible.

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Speaker 1: Terrible, And if you're scratching your head going, wait, huh,

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Speaker 1: who iris Roli is? Well, it was involved with the

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Speaker 1: establishment of the Collaborative Agreement after the riots back in

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Speaker 1: what was it two thousand and one? Yes, long time ago.

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Speaker 1: She has been a constant presence in activism, if I

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Speaker 1: can boil it down in the city since that time.

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Speaker 1: She has been under contract. She's like a a ten

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Speaker 1: ninety nine employee of sorts, right, I mean she does

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Speaker 1: she doesn't have a direct job with or for the city.

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Speaker 1: She's not a city employee. She's a subcontract the city,

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Speaker 1: like an NGO that we're paying to do work in

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Speaker 1: the community.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 1: So her current role is is what what she's getting fed?

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Speaker 1: I fought how many what's the terms of her contract?

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Speaker 1: How many years? And how much money is she gonna

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Speaker 1: to make it?

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Speaker 2: Well, the current contract is a is a three year

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Speaker 2: contract that was signed off in two thousand and twenty four,

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Speaker 2: and that was an amendment to a twenty and twenty

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Speaker 2: three contract. But the current contract is for three years,

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Speaker 2: and that includes a salary for miss Rowley that is

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Speaker 2: over three hundred thousand dollars. And then the contract also

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Speaker 2: includes money for a initiative on Government Square. They call

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Speaker 2: it the Government Square Initiative, and that's another I believe

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Speaker 2: it's two hundred and twenty five thousand. The math on

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Speaker 2: it that I calculated was the value of the contract

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Speaker 2: was five hundred and seventy thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Right, is there a job description in there, like you normally,

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Speaker 1: here's what you're expected to do? And also is she

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Speaker 1: paid an hourly rate? Is how does she charge the city?

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Speaker 1: Because we're going to talk about some of the bills

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Speaker 1: that she submitted to the City Cincinnati invoices. So what

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Speaker 1: within the contract explains how these invoice processes work, how

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Speaker 1: much she's supposed to get, what her day to day

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Speaker 1: responsibilities are. I mean, are we getting an eight hour

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Speaker 1: work day in return for all of this money? That

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Speaker 1: kind of thing?

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Speaker 2: The basic conditions, Yeah, well, a lot of that I

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Speaker 2: can't answer, but the scope of services in the contract,

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Speaker 2: there were three basic scope of services. One was to

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Speaker 2: kind of refresh the what's called the management Advisory Group,

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Speaker 2: which was established under the Collaborative Agreement and which iris

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Speaker 2: Rolli was a member of that management group, and I

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Speaker 2: believe she either is still a member or is responsible

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Speaker 2: for kind of managing that group under this contract. The

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Speaker 2: second one is to engage the community one way or

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Speaker 2: the other. Uh, it's not very specific, but there's community

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Speaker 2: engagement that that she's required to to to engage.

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Speaker 1: And you and I could go all day long on

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Speaker 1: what in the hell that means? Right, community engagement.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's spelled it is spelled out a little more

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Speaker 2: in the contract itself, but when you look at the invoices,

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Speaker 2: it gets much broader.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're we're going to get to that, folks. Just

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Speaker 1: wait wait for that bomb. That's the bomb that's going

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Speaker 1: to drop in.

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Speaker 2: And then there's a there's an aspect of the collaborative

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Speaker 2: Agreement called problem The big thing about the Collaborative Agreement

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Speaker 2: is this problem solving community problem solving, and they use

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Speaker 2: a technique called SARAH, which stands for scanning assessment or scanning, analysis, response,

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Speaker 2: and assessment. So and she will she'll train groups on

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Speaker 2: how that works. You know what can be accomplished with

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Speaker 2: that method. And those are the three big ticket items

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Speaker 2: in the in the contract.

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Speaker 1: As to the latter, since the collaborative agreement dealt with

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Speaker 1: policing in the city, this scanning and reviewing or whatever

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Speaker 1: this protocol is that it relates to individual police interactions

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Speaker 1: with the community, arrests and issuance of citations and things

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Speaker 1: like that, or does it go outside of police activity.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it definitely goes outside of police activity. It's it's

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Speaker 2: to identify problems in the neighborhood or in the community.

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Speaker 1: Like the breakdown of the nuclear family for example.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't know if it goes to that point,

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Speaker 2: but I'm sorry, I go there, and you know, how

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Speaker 2: do we how do we deal with this problem that?

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Speaker 2: And so the police are involved the community. It's supposed

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Speaker 2: to be kind of a collaborative of effort.

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Speaker 1: Okay, But at its core, does it relate to crime,

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Speaker 1: like getting ahead of things that cause or create problems

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Speaker 1: that result in criminal activity? I guess I'm I think

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Speaker 1: a collaborative agreement. What started it? The riots, the accusations

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Speaker 1: of racism, the accusations of pulling over people are for

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Speaker 1: driving while black. I mean, we know all the genesis

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Speaker 1: behind it, but it had to do with law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: It sounds to me like she's been hired in a

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Speaker 1: role that's much broader than her initial involvement.

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Speaker 2: If you look at her invoices, they answer that, yes,

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Speaker 2: it's much much broader than what it looks like in

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Speaker 2: the contract.

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Speaker 1: But here we go. Can we tell from the invoice

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Speaker 1: is exactly what she's doing out in the world on

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Speaker 1: a day to day basis?

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Speaker 2: I would say, no.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk just you got a whole bunch of them.

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Speaker 1: You looked into this. Yeah, and she submits a monthly

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Speaker 1: invoice correct, correct, and to best of your knowledge, it's

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Speaker 1: all been paid correct.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So.

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Speaker 1: What what are we talking about here? I mentioned you

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Speaker 1: when I was an attorney billing hours, you had a

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Speaker 1: certain oblig to put enough information on your billing form

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Speaker 1: to justify the hourly charge you were going to do.

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Speaker 1: Like I reviewed documents, you know X through Y, you

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Speaker 1: know tax years nineteen eighty to nineteen eighty five. You

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Speaker 1: had to put a sufficient explanation of what you did

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Speaker 1: to justify the bill you're sett into the client. Does

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Speaker 1: her invoice show any of that kind of detailed information.

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Speaker 2: Well, the contract requires a detailed timekeeping and an activity log,

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Speaker 2: so the invoices don't reflect any time keeping. The invoices

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Speaker 2: identify maybe seven or eight different areas or things that

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Speaker 2: she devoted time to, there's no details to it, and

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Speaker 2: there's no time associated with any of those activities. And

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three, for example, there are five invoices,

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Speaker 2: five monthly invoices that say the exact same thing. And

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Speaker 2: so without those kinds of activity logs, you don't know

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Speaker 2: whether those five things are duplicates, or whether there's different

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Speaker 2: activities under each of those categories. There's just nothing there

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Speaker 2: to really determine what she worked on.

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Speaker 1: Well, you indicated also your research determined that five of

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Speaker 1: the seven invoices also had identical misspellings, meaning the only

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Speaker 1: thing that's different between them is maybe the date that

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Speaker 1: it was sent out.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's the only difference. And you know the real

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Speaker 2: problem is that there's no information underneath each item, each

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Speaker 2: of those seven items on these invoices to say how

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Speaker 2: this month is different than last month. Because if you

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Speaker 2: can't differentiate between the activities on each of the invoices.

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Speaker 2: It looks like you're paying for the same thing five times.

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Speaker 1: Well that's the appearance. So that's what I came away

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Speaker 1: with after I was looking at your analysis on this.

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Speaker 2: Right and see I had to be. I waited to

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Speaker 2: disclose all these invoices because I was hopeful that the

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Speaker 2: city would come through with some additional documentation and some

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Speaker 2: additional information to give us a better picture of it.

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Speaker 2: But it's been over a month since I had since

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Speaker 2: I had received the initial a batch of documents, and

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Speaker 2: I don't know how long I'm supposed to wait before

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Speaker 2: I report out on this stuff. So I just reported out.

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Speaker 1: Right, which means if they have additional documents that fill

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Speaker 1: in the missing information back behind the scenes, they can say, oh,

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Speaker 1: todds In's or you jump to conclusions. Here's all the

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Speaker 1: details supporting the monthly bill, which contains literally no information

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Speaker 1: we can use. Yeah, well, you don't expect that day

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Speaker 1: to come.

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Speaker 2: I unfortunately I don't, but I would be happy to

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Speaker 2: take that information and revise what you know my conclusions here.

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Speaker 1: I know you will. We have much many more shenanigans

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Speaker 1: to reveal here with Todd Sen's or Citizen Watchdog in

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Speaker 1: the fifty five CAREC Morning Show. He'll be in studio

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Speaker 1: for the full hour. Please do not go away. Fifty

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Speaker 1: five KARC dot com lead station. They take twenty here

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Speaker 1: fiftybout car City Talk Station. Citizen Watchdogs the name of

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Todd zenz Er, host of that podcast and

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Speaker 1: the one that's doing all the work to gather the

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Speaker 1: information that he talks about with the Citizen Watchdog podcasts

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Speaker 1: and our podcasts and also talking about here in the

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Speaker 1: fifty five krsee Morning Shoe and Studio Today. Now, Todd

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Speaker 1: going back to this IRISROLLI contract paid a handsome amount

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Speaker 1: of money to be a some sort of outside contractor fine.

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Speaker 1: The contract requires detailed timekeeping. That's in quotes from the contract, yes,

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Speaker 1: as well as in quotes activity logs. So when you

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Speaker 1: submit an invoice under this contract, you must have detailed

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Speaker 1: timekeeping where you were, how much time you spent, what

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Speaker 1: you did, as well as the activity logs. You say

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Speaker 1: there are no activity logs. No, there's not, clearly from

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Speaker 1: what you told me, like for example, quote police chief

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Speaker 1: sir close. Quote does not sound like detailed timekeeping either. No,

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Speaker 1: no hours specified for example, correct just detailed timekeeping. What

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Speaker 1: was the invoice? I mean, what are these invoices run

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Speaker 1: like four or five, six or six thousand dollars?

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Speaker 2: Or the monthly payment that she received initially was eight thousand,

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Speaker 2: three hundred and something, and then this contract what the invoices?

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Speaker 2: Monthly invoices are eighty seven fifty.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now I don't believe and I've never heard it

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Speaker 1: said that Iris Rowley has the City of Cincinnati's checkbook

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Speaker 1: so she can write herself checks. Someone has to approve

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Speaker 1: and authorize these payments. She submits the invoice. See I'm

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Speaker 1: going real slow, and I'm mansplaining. I see, I'm recognizing it.

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Speaker 1: Who signed off on these? Considering it does not meet

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Speaker 1: on its face the contractual requirements.

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Speaker 2: Right well, under the contract she reports directly to the

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Speaker 2: city manager or an assistant city manager. And most of

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Speaker 2: the invoices that I've I didn't see any invoices that

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Speaker 2: share a long initial off on. It's usually a assistant

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Speaker 2: manager the best I can tell. But there's only initials.

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Speaker 2: Somebody will initial it or say good to pay or

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Speaker 2: something like that.

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Speaker 1: But if the buck stops at the head of the

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Speaker 1: head of the class's desk, Like the buck stops here,

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Speaker 1: that will be Cheryl Long. This is under her watch.

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Speaker 1: She bears ultimately responsibility for these invoices being paid.

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Speaker 2: Correct, she signed the contract?

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Speaker 1: Well does it one really kind of puzzle over? I

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Speaker 1: know you're puzzling over it. I'm puzzling over it. Have

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Speaker 1: you asked that question of the mayor or anybody else

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Speaker 1: in the administration.

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Speaker 2: Well, I did send them a letter back at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of October, like I don't know, ten days ago,

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Speaker 2: twelve days ago, and I lined out all of my

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Speaker 2: issues with the contracts and I all suggested things that

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Speaker 2: they need to do to fix them. And I haven't

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Speaker 2: heard anything back. But that's not unusual either.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well my recollection, and I know it's right because

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Speaker 1: you just showed me the quote from have to have

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Speaker 1: Pervoll when he was running for mayor back in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one. Didn't he promise and pledge to ferret out

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Speaker 1: corruption and to be transparent? I mean you can feel

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Speaker 1: free to read his own words.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, the WKRC interviewed all the candidates running for

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Speaker 2: mayor back in twenty twenty one. I guess it was

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Speaker 2: just a mayor of Pervall and mister David Mann. But

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Speaker 2: they asked him four city council members have been indicted

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Speaker 2: on felony charges, including three for corruption charges, what will

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Speaker 2: you do to restore trust in local government? So part

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Speaker 2: of his response he says, I think we've got to

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Speaker 2: be laser focused on finding the corruption before it starts,

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Speaker 2: and that means more transparency. And then he ended saying,

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Speaker 2: I think we've got to raise the level of our

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Speaker 2: ethical standards, make them more transparent so we can weed

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Speaker 2: this corruption out before it begins.

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Speaker 1: How's that working out for you?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think I mentioned that. A big issue is

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Speaker 2: I did send him a letter earlier in the summer

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Speaker 2: to help get disclosure on what Norfolk Southern spent that

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Speaker 2: six million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Oh, Todd Sensor, Yeah, you're doing great with a tease,

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Speaker 1: because wow, do you have a mom sittle drop about

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Speaker 1: the Norfolk Southern money? And this is folks. It just

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Speaker 1: keeps getting better and better. The hits keep coming. We'll

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Speaker 1: do more with Todd Zinzer on Norfolk Southern Shenanigans. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think Provol's got a problem on his hands. I

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Speaker 1: just wish it was more widely reported beyond Citizen Watchdog.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back. It's eight twenty five. This is

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Speaker 1: fifty five KRC and iHeartRadio see talk station. Brian Thomas

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Speaker 1: with former US Inspector General citizen Watchdog for the residence

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Speaker 1: of the City of Cincinnati, trying to ensure that your

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Speaker 1: taxpayer dollars are being well spent, but revealing day in

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Speaker 1: and day out with what he does. Apparently they're not

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Speaker 1: Todd Zenzer. I know we're going to get the Norfolk

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Speaker 1: Southern craziness here in a second. But since we were

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Speaker 1: talking about Irish Rolly, that contract, one of the components

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Speaker 1: of it, as you laid out, I believe it was

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Speaker 1: roughly two hundred or so thousand dollars. Of this north

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Speaker 1: of five hundred thousand dollars contract relates to some program

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Speaker 1: or something at Government Square. Now. Government Square has been

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Speaker 1: making into the news a lot lately, and it's become

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Speaker 1: a hotbed of crime in downtown Cincinnati. That's where the

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Speaker 1: kids hang out, that's where the fights break out, a

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Speaker 1: lot of terrible things, and of course people who are

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Speaker 1: going back and forth from the various businesses. Steve Gooden

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Speaker 1: commented on this. His law firm is real close by,

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Speaker 1: they're afraid, Yeah, what did she do or what it

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Speaker 1: looks like things have gotten worse over the past several years.

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Speaker 1: If this is part of her responsibility, what does she

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Speaker 1: have to show for it, and what's being done right?

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Speaker 2: Well, back in twenty twenty four, I think they that

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Speaker 2: was the first time they initiated this Government Square initiative,

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Speaker 2: which involves in the specific case of Iris Rolly's contract,

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Speaker 2: they have four I think they call them community counselors

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Speaker 2: or community collaborative counselors or something like that. They have

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Speaker 2: those those individuals positioned at Government Square for certain hours

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Speaker 2: when the kids will be a changing buses or whatever

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Speaker 2: it is they do down there.

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Speaker 1: In lieu of a police presidence.

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Speaker 2: Correct, And they they have snacks and drinks that they

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Speaker 2: give to the kids. I guess they have some type

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Speaker 2: of interaction with the kids to talk to them and

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Speaker 2: get to know them and things like that. And it's

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Speaker 2: another one of these alternative approaches to policing that if

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Speaker 2: they interact with these kids in a certain way rather

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Speaker 2: than in a law enforcement way, they're going to reduce

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Speaker 2: they're going to reduce attentions. And the issue is really

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Speaker 2: whether this whole collaborative agreement really is working, because it

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Speaker 2: sure doesn't seem like it.

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Speaker 1: No that, I mean, that's my point, right, there's a

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Speaker 1: specified component in the contract that it talks about the

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Speaker 1: problems we're having a government square. Again, I don't think

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Speaker 1: anybody can say anything, but it has gotten worse. So

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Speaker 1: do those people have a special hat or something that

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Speaker 1: they're issued easily identifiable government square, you know, civil service.

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Speaker 2: I do think they have T shirts or something like that. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: But the real problem is the way they contracted that.

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Speaker 2: The original contract with IRIS was for consulting, and when

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Speaker 2: they amended the twenty twenty three contract to include the

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Speaker 2: Government Square initiative, that should have been a separate, competitive contract.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, the sole.

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Speaker 2: Source justification to begin with is deficient. But it's especially

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Speaker 2: deficient to say that only Irish Roley LLC can carry

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Speaker 2: out the work at Government Square. I liken it to

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Speaker 2: the Authorization for the Use of Military Fish. It's like,

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Speaker 2: we can use this for anything we want to use anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't give her any ideas. We gave the drone

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Speaker 1: strikes lawn drone strikes launch. And then there's the other

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Speaker 1: nefarious component in here, and I'm not suggesting that all

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Speaker 1: nepotism hires are always bad in all times, but they

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Speaker 1: do draw an eye of scrutiny, like, wait a second,

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Speaker 1: how did their son or daughter or best friend end

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Speaker 1: up in that particular role. Do they have the requisite

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Speaker 1: skill sets to bring about whatever it is they've been

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Speaker 1: charged with doing right? Enter Ily's son, I believe, and

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Speaker 1: he's a convicted felon correct, Yes, does that qualify him

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Speaker 1: to work on Government Square project?

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Speaker 2: Well, they don't line out the qualifications, but they should

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Speaker 2: be considered subcontractors. They're not employees of Iris Rolely LLC.

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Speaker 2: They're subcontractors, and under the procurement rules, the contractor is

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Speaker 2: supposed to get permission from the city manager for any subcontractors.

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Speaker 2: I didn't get any of those documents either, so I

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Speaker 2: really don't know what who knows what about who Iris

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Speaker 2: Roly is hiring. Her son is not the only one

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Speaker 2: that's had trouble with law enforcement. There's another individual who

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Speaker 2: and this individual's brother also is one of the four.

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Speaker 2: He was prosecuted for tax issues about ten years ago

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Speaker 2: or fourteen years ago, and that involved tens of thousands

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Speaker 2: of dollars that were withheld from this person's employees that

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Speaker 2: he didn't remit to the IRS, and then.

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Speaker 1: I takes their tax dollars out and he doesn't hand

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Speaker 1: him over to the IRS. Right.

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Speaker 2: I think that is a very common problem with some employers.

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Speaker 2: But the other issue is he apparently still owes hundreds

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Speaker 2: of thousands of dollars to the IRS. Probably a lot

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Speaker 2: of that is penalties and interest, But a couple of

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Speaker 2: years ago it was like eight hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: Well, and getting money directly from the City of Cincinnati.

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Speaker 1: It sounds to me like she submits the invoices as

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Speaker 1: lacking in detail as they are, gets paid the eight

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars or whatever, and then pays her son and

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Speaker 1: the other people that are on this government square board.

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Speaker 1: The money is flowing from Iris roly LLC.

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Speaker 2: Yes, one of the invoices that was provided by the

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Speaker 2: city includes copies of four canceled checks paid to these

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Speaker 2: four individuals, and that that was the extent of the

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Speaker 2: paperwork provided in connection with those four people.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's you know, that's a lot of process and

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Speaker 1: the idea that this could go on and this could happen.

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Speaker 1: And then going back to the idea that the invoices

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Speaker 1: were specifically signed off on while they lacked all this information.

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Speaker 1: There's multiple layers of violations and built into this from

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Speaker 1: what I hear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and what I can't What I can't figure out,

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Speaker 2: is it it is common for bureaucracies to do catch

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Speaker 2: me if you can, where they go ahead and they

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Speaker 2: bend the rules or even break the rules, and if

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Speaker 2: you catch them, they say, oh, we're sorry, well we

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Speaker 2: won't do it again. But in this case, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if it's really you know, catch me if you can.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just you.

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Speaker 1: Know, set up intentionally loose so this kind of thing

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Speaker 1: can happen.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, that's what I would look for.

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Speaker 1: That's why we've got Todd Zinzer. That's why we need

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Speaker 1: to keep him around. And if you vote Corey Bowman,

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Speaker 1: maybe we'll get him as city manager. I'm praying for

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Speaker 1: that day, don't. I'm not hanging you out to dry there, Todd.

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Speaker 1: I think you would help us out immeasurably. Eight thirty

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Speaker 1: five we are going to talk about the get ready folks.

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Speaker 1: I think it's getting worse as the conversation draws longer

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Speaker 1: in terms of how bad things are, in terms of improprieties.

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Speaker 1: A thirty five right now if you have Kersite talk

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Speaker 1: station fifty five krc DC Deep talk station, Hey thirty

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Speaker 1: nine if you have Kersite talk station, Happy Friday. Brian

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Speaker 1: Thomas Swift, Citizen Watchdog, Todd Zinser and Studio just Man.

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Speaker 1: And the more I talk to Todd and the more

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Speaker 1: he reveals, the worse I feel about the city of

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati under the current administration. And since we do have

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Speaker 1: an election coming up beginning in November, early voting going

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Speaker 1: on right now, we have a choice on mayor. And

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Speaker 1: I know Corey Mowment's fighting an uphill battle as a

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Speaker 1: Republican in a very blue city. But so many of

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Speaker 1: the residents of the city seem to be so upset

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Speaker 1: about so many things, and we're just adding multiple layers

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Speaker 1: onto that. You got to be a weed dweller to

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Speaker 1: talk about engage in the level of detail that Todd

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Speaker 1: Senser is working with. But as we're talking about these

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Speaker 1: this is actually going on behind the scenes. Have processes

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Speaker 1: in place for contracting and the like, they're not following them.

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Speaker 1: They have contractual obligations built into that contract. For example,

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Speaker 1: with Irish Roley, they're not being followed that's a huge

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Speaker 1: red flag. And I'm just wondering as we move over

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Speaker 1: to Northfolk Southern, Todd anything by way of civil or

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Speaker 1: criminal statutory violations that are suggested by what you're revealing

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Speaker 1: on this.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I think that there are opportunities to

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Speaker 2: file lawsuits under Ohio code for their you know, their

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Speaker 2: breaching their fiduciary duties basically.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so this might have legs along some lighte because

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Speaker 1: I know we have some really you know, activist lawyers

436
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 1: out there who are usually more than happy to see

437
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: the city for a variety of reasons.

438
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, the question, the reason I was hesitant in writing

439
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: about this is because there should be additional documentation and

440
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: it's not forthcoming. So maybe the only way to get

441
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: that is through some kind of.

442
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 1: Lawsuit, discovery request pursuing litigation. Todd Zens are pivoting over

443
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 1: to Norfolk Southern. Now, there was this swirling issue about

444
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 1: the money that was involved the marketing campaign, wasn't it. Yeah,

445
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: we were deciding whether or not we're going to sell

446
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 1: the railroad. Christopher smithm was a big no. A lot

447
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: of members accounts were big As we ultimately sold it.

448
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god, everything's great one point six billion dollars

449
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: an interest bearing account. But lots of people were wondering

450
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 1: who in the hell funded the six million dollar ad

451
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: campaign for this one issue. You got the bottom of

452
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: that too, didn't you.

453
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. The sole contributor to the to Build Cincinnati's Future,

454
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: the Political Action Committee. The sole contributor was Norfolk Southern,

455
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 2: and they contributed six million dollars. And the reason they

456
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: were able to do that is because under Ohio law

457
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 2: on ballot issues and those campaigns, there is no limit

458
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 2: on corporate contributions.

459
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: So and there is no thing such as a common

460
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: inflictive interest. Norfolk Southern is entitled to do an AD

461
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 1: campaign that operates in its best interest.

462
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,879
Speaker 2: Yes, and early on it certainly looked like both the

463
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 2: city and the Railway Board was just going to step

464
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 2: back and let Norfolk Southern handle the campaign. That's basically

465
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 2: what happened, except that Norfolk Southern engaged the mayor to

466
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 2: appear in a set of TV commercials on the sale

467
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 2: of a public asset that is going to benefit Norfolk Southern,

468
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 2: And it was just kind of outrageous. And when PG

469
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: Sittenfeld got pardoned and there was a big hoopla over that,

470
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: I wrote an op ed and I said, well, that's fine,

471
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 2: but what has the city done about all the anti

472
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: corruption efforts that were made under the previous city council,

473
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 2: under the previous mayor. Have they followed through on it?

474
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 2: And the answer was no. So in June I sent

475
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: a letter to the city Council and to the mayor,

476
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: and I asked the city council to take all the

477
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: anti corruption recommendations that had been made prior to them

478
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: coming on board, line them out, and tell us what

479
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 2: the status is. So that was the request to the council.

480
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 2: To the mayor, I asked him for help in going

481
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: to Norfolk Southern's pack and getting greater disclosure on how

482
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 2: the pack spent six million dollars on that campaign, because

483
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: I do not think it cost six million dollars five

484
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: point four million, ninety percent of that Here we go,

485
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: folks went to a consulting firm in Washington, d C.

486
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: Called sk D Knickerbocker, and they are a big time

487
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 2: consultant in DC. They happened to be on the Democrat

488
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: side or Republican consultants just like that. Sure for example,

489
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: they were big from what I understand, we're big on

490
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 2: Hillary Clinton's campaign, and they were given five point four

491
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 2: million dollars by the pack and the description of what

492
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: that money was used for was basically described in a

493
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: handful of words advised consulting, printing, and apparently under the

494
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 2: rules because I did consult with an attorney under the rules,

495
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 2: that's that's complying with the campaign financial rules.

496
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: That's less disclosure than IRIS were rely supposed to require.

497
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: When she's submitting her invoices under her contract.

498
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 2: It's not much different.

499
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: So ad bys, printing and quote unquote consulting whatever. That

500
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: is five point four million dollars, Yes, on a single

501
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,439
Speaker 1: issue campaign. Now you're in Hamilton County.

502
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: Now there's two big coincidences. Number one is that f

503
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: tab Purvol's campaign treasurer was also the treasurer for Norfolk

504
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 2: Southern's Political Action Committee. And I actually filed a complaint

505
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: with the Elections Commission about disclosures there and how can

506
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 2: you have one person being a treasurer for both parties.

507
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: There's something called coordinated communication between campaigns, and the Election

508
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: Commission couldn't handle that issue, so they denied my complaint.

509
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: Well, you don't have to have any coordination if you're

510
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: the same guy exactly. It's not like you're writing yourself

511
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: a letter exactly, so damn well what you're planning on doing.

512
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 2: So what happened is the treasurer did produce an affidavit

513
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,479
Speaker 2: where he claimed he had nothing to do with who

514
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: appeared in those TV commercials. It was the PAS steering committee.

515
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: But we don't know who's on the steering committee. We

516
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: don't know whether those folks are all campaign contributors to

517
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 2: mayor Provol or whether they're just one person from Norfolk Southern.

518
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: They don't have to disclose that. So I asked the

519
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: mayor for help and identifying those people too.

520
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: And what did mister transparency say in response to.

521
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: That, Well, he has not responded. That was June one,

522
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: so that was several months ago.

523
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: Several months ago. That'd be have to have Provol's way of,

524
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 1: you know, basically doing what my dad, who say, I've

525
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: got two words for you, and it ain't happy birth.

526
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: The other words no to your response for the information.

527
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: So just by ignoring it you get the same effect.

528
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 2: Yes, and that's basically how they treat a lot of

529
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: people that come to them with issues.

530
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: Well, we know how they treat everybody, look at the

531
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: residents of Hyde Park, bond Hill. Yeah. One more with

532
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: todds ens or Citizen Watchdog. Get his podcasts and definitely

533
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 1: listen to it regularly. Eight forty six Right now fifty

534
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: five KR CIT Talk station fifty five KRC and talk station.

535
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 1: All apologies. Eight forty nine if you have KR City

536
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: Talk station. One more segment here with Citizen Watchdog Todds

537
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: inz Or Todd we were having a conversation off I

538
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: we I think you and I can agree, and probably

539
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: people who have been paying attention to where the city

540
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 1: dollars are going can agree. We're funding a lot of

541
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: non governmental organizations. Yes, and we've been down this road before.

542
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: The mayor and the city manager have a huge amount

543
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: of discretion to pick and choose which NGOs get taxpayer dollars.

544
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: Is that a fair statement.

545
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: Yes.

546
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: Among these NGOs is an NGO called Centrifuse, Right, they

547
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: have a board of directors. What is Centrifuge being paid

548
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: by the city to allegedly do?

549
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's a good question, Brian. It's really

550
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 2: it's it would definitely be spelled out in like an

551
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 2: application for funding. But I haven't tracked that down. But

552
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: what Centrifuse does is they help businesses start up. They

553
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: help start up businesses.

554
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: Okay, So if you a young person entrepreneur, you go

555
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: to Centrifuse I need some help starting a new business.

556
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: They provide you with some resources or send you over

557
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: to some folks that can help you out, maybe hook

558
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: you up with a financial lending company, that kind of thing. Right, Okay, fine,

559
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 1: we can agree that the purpose may be noble. Whether

560
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: or not there should be an NGO out there with

561
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: taxpayer dollars doing it is another thing. They're getting. How

562
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: much money from the city.

563
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: They've been get ivan two hundred and fifty thousand a

564
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: year for the past four or five six years. Well,

565
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: it's well over a million dollars over that period.

566
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: Of time, okay. And those board members have a fiduciary

567
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: obligation to serve the interest that they are being paid

568
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: to do.

569
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: That's right.

570
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Who sits on that board among the members of the board.

571
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 1: Who is on the board at Centerviews.

572
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 2: Well, I found out earlier this year that the mayor

573
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: have to have provol sits on the board and has

574
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: sat on the board for his entire term. And what

575
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: was surprising is that last year, at the beginning of

576
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: the year, the city Council actually went through this issue

577
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: of council members sitting on the boards of directors of nonprofits,

578
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: and the city mayor, supported by the city solicitor, wrote

579
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: a memo that said that is not a good idea.

580
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: It's possible to do that, but there are so many

581
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: things that you would have to accommodate to comply with

582
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: the ethics rules that it was not recommended that the

583
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: members of city council sit on the boards of directors

584
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: of nonprofits. And all the while the mayor is sitting

585
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: there overseeing this deliberation. He got a copy of the

586
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: city manager's memo like everybody else. And as far as

587
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 2: I know, there's been no disclosure by the city by

588
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: the mayor that he sits on this board.

589
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: Now, you're not he's not paid in this position.

590
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 2: No, no, he's not.

591
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: But as mayor, a separate set of ethical and fiduciary

592
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: obligations exist to the taxpayers.

593
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: That's correct.

594
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 1: How can he be in a position of deciding that

595
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: his own NGO or on which he sits on the

596
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: board anyway, gets money, right, Isn't that just an outrageous

597
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: conflict of interest.

598
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 2: It does seem like that, Brian. I don't I don't

599
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: think Centrifuse has done anything wrong, and I don't know.

600
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: I don't want to suggest that, but.

601
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 2: I think it's incumbent on the city to make sure

602
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 2: that there's no conflicts of interest going on. In fact,

603
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: back in May, I think I went down to city

604
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 2: Hall because of all the money they spend on these

605
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 2: NGOs and nonprofits, and I said, the least you could

606
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: do is everybody that submits, you know, input on how

607
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: these NGOs should be funded, everyone should sign a certification

608
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: that they do not have a conflict of interest.

609
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: Right, because here's how it might play out. Aftebs. I

610
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: don't get any money from them. Yeah, I got some

611
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 1: money going into this Centrifuse. Yes, I'm on the board

612
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: of directors parent. You had mentioned off era that the

613
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: head of centrifuse makes three hundred grand a year.

614
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, just about that.

615
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, what if he's looking for some campaign money

616
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: he ends up sending money over to centrifew centreviews agrees

617
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: to pay. Maybe you have tab has no connection with

618
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: the amount of money that that guy pays. Maybe that

619
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: guy's friends with atab pro Ball and maybe in return

620
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 1: for getting a three hundred thousand dollars years paycheck from

621
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: Centrifuse being doing NGO work, he decides that, you know what,

622
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: I Am going to peel off a few thousand dollars

623
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: of my FATS salary and give it the mayor to

624
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: be re elected. So there is a money trail that

625
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: could be easily created by virtue of the allocation of

626
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: money to an NGO, upon which after that par Ball

627
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 1: sits right.

628
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: And this is just one ease. This is just one

629
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 2: example of all of this spending that they do with

630
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 2: these nonprofits. It's a very high risk area in terms

631
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: of fraud, waste, and abuse because there's no internal controls.

632
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 2: There's no oversight of what these folks are doing with

633
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 2: their money. Some high level reports back about what we did,

634
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: but nobody's really looking at these and even the internal

635
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: auditor for the city has identified problems with these nonprofits.

636
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: Well, and going back to this roly contract that involves

637
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: government square specific work, I think we can all figure

638
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 1: out perhaps that they haven't been able to accomplish anything.

639
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: So the return on our taxpayer investment for that one

640
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 1: subset isn't paying off well.

641
00:35:58,600 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: I don't think it's paying off well?

642
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: Need do I? I know it's a subjective conclusion. We

643
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 1: can't be held accountable for that. But crime and Government Square.

644
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: Government Square as a concept has been in the news

645
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: time and time and time and time again. I have

646
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: to have pear Wall has been talking about it. The

647
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: police resource has been allocated to government Square. That sounds

648
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: like a bigger problem that they're trying to address than

649
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,600
Speaker 1: it was maybe several years ago. So I'm gonna call

650
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: it a failure. Whatever they thought they were gonna accomplish.

651
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: Todd zinzer Man, we unloaded a hell of a lot today.

652
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,439
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for the work that you're doing.

653
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe maybe other local news will take the time

654
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: to report on all of this because it seems very

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Speaker 1: newsworthy and maybe, just maybe this will end up in

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Speaker 1: court my hope. Anyway, Todd, thank you again.

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Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, Brian.

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Speaker 1: You're always welcome here, my friend. Always. We'll keep listening

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Speaker 1: to your podcast, Citizen Watchdog. Folks, you can get a

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Speaker 1: chance