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Speaker 1: Welcome back to The Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI

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Speaker 1: AM six forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's amazing that we talk so openly about sex and

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Speaker 1: love today. Although I always remind people like, I'm not

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Speaker 1: a sex therapist. I don't talk about sex. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a doctor Ruth where I'm going to give you plumbing

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Speaker 1: information or talk about positions or lubrication or any of

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Speaker 1: that stuff, because I'm a psychology professor. When I do

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Speaker 1: talk about sex, it's within the context of relationships, you know, frequency, neurochemistry,

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Speaker 1: the bonding effects of having sex, et cetera. So, but

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Speaker 1: we live in a time and a culture where it's

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Speaker 1: okay to be open and talk about your sexual desires,

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Speaker 1: your fantasies, your sexual identity, your orientation. Right, you know,

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Speaker 1: not so long ago, it was not okay to even

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Speaker 1: say the word pregnant on television. One of my favorite

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Speaker 1: shows when I was little was a Dick Van Dyke show,

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Speaker 1: and you remember he and his wife slept in twin

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Speaker 1: beds on TV. They couldn't even show them getting into

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Speaker 1: bed together in the nineteen sixties. And I want a

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Speaker 1: credit A man named Alfred Kinsey to the openness that

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Speaker 1: we have today. Really beginning back in the nineteen forties,

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Speaker 1: he was the first person to really look America straight

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Speaker 1: in the eye and say, hey, everybody, let's stop moralizing

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Speaker 1: here and start measuring. I mean he started to collect data.

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Speaker 1: Before Kinsey did his work, there were assumptions people had

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Speaker 1: shame around things, secrets, and there was a complete lack

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Speaker 1: of data. A little background if you don't know who

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Speaker 1: Alfred Kinsey was. He grew up in New Jersey, Hoboken,

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Speaker 1: New Jersey, and he happened to have come from a

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Speaker 1: very strict religious and it's reported emotionally restrained household. His

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Speaker 1: father was a devout Methodist minister and later a professor.

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Speaker 1: He supposedly ruled the home with rigid moral expectations. So

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Speaker 1: picture this. Here's this little boy with all these questions

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Speaker 1: and hormones that are going and you can't even talk

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Speaker 1: about these things. His mother was known to be deeply

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Speaker 1: submissive to her husband, so he grew up in really

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Speaker 1: hard traditional gender roles. He also was a very shy

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Speaker 1: and often sick child. He suffered from scoliosis and he

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Speaker 1: spent long periods alone thinking, right, this pushed him into

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Speaker 1: nature and the woods, and Kinsey liked to collect plants insects,

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Speaker 1: So some of his biographers would say that this part

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Speaker 1: of his life was filled with sexual suppression religious control.

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Speaker 1: But then he began this lifelong obsession with trying to

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Speaker 1: understand human sexuality. Eventually he made it to Harvard. He's

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Speaker 1: a Harvard trained biologist. He began his career studying nature

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Speaker 1: gall wasps actually tiny insects. He collected tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of them. I was watching an interview. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you've seen the Netflix interview with Jane Goodall that's

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Speaker 1: I think it's called Famous Last Words, where they interviewed

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Speaker 1: her before her death and promised her that this would

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Speaker 1: not be put out until after she passed away. And

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Speaker 1: she was talking about there's nature everywhere. She just used

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Speaker 1: a cute little story about being at an airport and

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Speaker 1: people walking by with their suitcases whatever, and not even

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Speaker 1: seeing that there's a courting ritual going on between these

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Speaker 1: two insects and one male was trying to pick up

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Speaker 1: this crumb off the floor to entice the female their

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Speaker 1: version of dating, right, And she said, it's everywhere, it's everywhere, right. Well,

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Speaker 1: Kinsey eventually turned sex from a taboo into a scientific

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Speaker 1: question his famous study nineteen forty eight Sexual Behavior in

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Speaker 1: the Human in Male. Before that, there were zero large

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Speaker 1: scale data sets on sexual behavior. So he went out

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Speaker 1: and just asked people questions. But he not only asked

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Speaker 1: them questions about their sexual behavior, but he asked them

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Speaker 1: questions about their sexual fantasies. You know. He was One

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Speaker 1: of the many things he came up with in the

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Speaker 1: area of sexuality was this idea of the Kinsey scale,

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Speaker 1: a scale of sexual orientation where at one end of

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Speaker 1: the scale you're one hundred percent homosexual, both in behavior

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Speaker 1: and fantasies. But he found something else. He found that

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Speaker 1: people could be one hundred percent heterosexual in behavior, but

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Speaker 1: they're fantasies were almost always homosexual. Again, the repression at

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Speaker 1: the time people unable to be authentic and who they were.

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Speaker 1: And he also found that it's a wide scale and

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Speaker 1: that most of us Kinsey scale is from a one

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Speaker 1: to a six. A vast majority of us are more

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Speaker 1: like a three. We're somewhere. It's a sliding scale, right,

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Speaker 1: he found, and that despite what people thought, there were

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Speaker 1: lots of rates of sex outside of marriage. He found

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Speaker 1: that same sex behavior was far more common than people thought,

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Speaker 1: that there was a whole diversity in desire and fantasy,

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Speaker 1: and that women who were thought to be very asexual

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Speaker 1: and performative, that women had rich, varied sexual experiences.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Eventually, the Kinsey Institute evolved into cutting edge global research.

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Speaker 1: Right today, the Kinsey, the world famous Kinsey Institute is

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Speaker 1: under the leadership of doctor Justin Garcia. Now it's not

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Speaker 1: just about sex. Right now, they study not just lust

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Speaker 1: but love. The best research on attachment and pair bonding

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Speaker 1: comes out of the Kinsey Institute, Dating and dating, app behavior,

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Speaker 1: sexual health across the lifespan, gender and identity, evolutionary psychology

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Speaker 1: of mating. That's the area I'm so fascinated with. The

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Speaker 1: neuroscience of desire. The Kinsey Institute basically looks at love,

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Speaker 1: intimacy and relationship structure, and they collaborate with global labs

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Speaker 1: around the world. Right and they use all kinds of

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Speaker 1: scientific neuroimaging, et cetera to test our most intimate relationships. Now,

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Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I didn't say that. There

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Speaker 1: had been some controversy around Alfred Kinsey. Later critics accused

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Speaker 1: him of using some data that came from like some

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Speaker 1: questionable secondary sources that included reports of sexual behavior in minors.

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Speaker 1: And you know we don't like that, right, anybody studying miners.

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Speaker 1: So the Institute strongly denied these claims and emphasized that

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Speaker 1: Kinsey himself never conducted or condoned to any research on children.

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Speaker 1: But you know they're this scandal. I'll say this, Alfred

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Speaker 1: Kinsey's work paved the way for modern sex therapy, LGBTQ

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Speaker 1: research and education around consent. Everything that came later, from

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Speaker 1: Masters and Johnson to modern sex therapy, to public health campaigns,

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Speaker 1: to research on sexual orientation and gender, all of this

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Speaker 1: really sits on the foundation that Kinsey built. It's a

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Speaker 1: new era now, it's an era of relationship science, and

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Speaker 1: it's something that I am absolutely obsessed with. So that's

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Speaker 1: why I'm so excited to tell you that. Coming up

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Speaker 1: is my four part interview with doctor Justin Garcia, the head,

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Speaker 1: the leader of today's modern Kinsey Institute. He has a

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Speaker 1: new book coming out, The Intimate Animal, The Science of Sex,

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Speaker 1: Fidelity and Why We Live and Die for Love. I promised,

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Speaker 1: I promised you I would have him here, and I

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Speaker 1: got him trapped here for a whole hour. Doctor Justin Garcia,

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Speaker 1: director of the famed Kinsey Institute. Doctor Garcia, am I

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Speaker 1: going to say it wrong? Is it the University of

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Speaker 1: Indiana or Indiana University? I always everyone, I always mix

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Speaker 1: it up so everyone knows. Okay, hoosiers, there we go.

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Speaker 1: You have been studying love, intimacy, sex. Technically, you're one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite animals an evolutionary biologist, because you know,

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Speaker 1: I always say what's natural for our bodies. Uh, You've

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Speaker 1: been doing this for a very, very long time. And

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Speaker 1: I just talked about the history of the Kinsey Institute.

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Speaker 1: Can you just give us a snapshot of where the

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Speaker 1: Kinsey Institute is now, like what current things you guys

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Speaker 1: are studying and working on.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, thanks for having me. I always love when

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Speaker 2: I get to talk with you and your audiences, and

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Speaker 2: so the Kidney Institute today, we've really widened the lens

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Speaker 2: from where doctor Kinsey and the research team initially started,

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Speaker 2: and we still fundamentally ask questions about sexuality. We do

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Speaker 2: a lot of big studies. We did studies on, for instance,

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Speaker 2: what was the impact of COVID on people's romantic and

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Speaker 2: sexual lives. We were the first really big study to

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Speaker 2: look at that, and in that case we found sexual

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Speaker 2: frequency decreased, but quite a lot of people tried something new,

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Speaker 2: so their sexual repertoires expanded, even though their behavior was

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Speaker 2: tamped down.

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Speaker 1: So it was less frequent, but it was a little

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Speaker 1: more frisky.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And initially when we looked at the data

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Speaker 2: at first we thought, well, part of this is that

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Speaker 2: it took this enormous event. It took COVID, which I

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Speaker 2: think is also tells us a lot about psychology, so

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Speaker 2: I'll say a little bit more about it. But it

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Speaker 2: took this big event to really make people stop and

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Speaker 2: talk to their partner for the first time about fantasies.

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Speaker 2: For instance, we saw quite a number of people said,

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Speaker 2: I never talked to my partner about a sexual fantasy

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Speaker 2: until we were locked in the house together, and they

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Speaker 2: were trying new things, new behaviors. Sometimes it was sex thing,

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Speaker 2: sometimes it was showering together, and some of that was convenience.

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Speaker 2: I remember we talked to one couple and the woman said,

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Speaker 2: my husband and I started having shower sex during a pandemic.

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Speaker 2: And I said, oh, is it You're trying something new

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Speaker 2: and she said no, it's the only time we get

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Speaker 2: five minutes alone, right because we can't right exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: So there was some of that, but it was it

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Speaker 2: was for a lot of people, it this moment forced

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Speaker 2: them to have conversations with partners they had never had.

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Speaker 2: In one of our studies, we found over eighty percent

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Speaker 2: of marriages did better during the pandemic.

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Speaker 1: So I would think so, I mean I would think so,

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Speaker 1: especially because with uh, you know, with both partners being home.

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Speaker 1: I think men witnessed and women saw for sure. I've

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Speaker 1: always known about it, that disproportioned and domestic labor, and

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Speaker 1: so you see men starting to pitch in just because

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Speaker 1: there's a Bila laundry there, you know. So I think

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Speaker 1: that was really good for marriages. I mean, it was stressful,

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Speaker 1: especially with small kids. People were small kids that I

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Speaker 1: couldn't imagine, could imagine. So basically, the Kinsey Institute has

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Speaker 1: moved from just studying sexuality though, to also studying the

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Speaker 1: kinds of relationships we're having. Now. I want to remind

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Speaker 1: everybody who's listening this is not new news to you,

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Speaker 1: doctor justin Garcia, that this idea of a traditional family

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Speaker 1: where I hate that word traditional, where two people. This

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Speaker 1: fantasy where two people meet early in life established that

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Speaker 1: they are soulmates, stay together until the end of their lives,

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Speaker 1: and any offspring that come out of this union are

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Speaker 1: biologically connected to both of those partners. That's actually pretty rare, right,

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Speaker 1: What is more natural for human beings across the lifespan.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we see when we look at both the

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Speaker 2: historical and the cross cultural evidence, we know that we

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Speaker 2: know that people form intense pair bonds, that we have

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Speaker 2: what we might call what we call social monogamy. It's

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Speaker 2: scientists the term you and I will use, but it's

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Speaker 2: this idea that romantic love, and in other species it's

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Speaker 2: characterized by mutual territory defense, building a nest together, raising

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Speaker 2: offspring together. Humans have that capacity and most people around

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Speaker 2: the world and historically do that we form these intense bonds.

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Speaker 2: But what we know exactly as you said, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: follow this sort of quote unquote traditional playbook, that there's

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Speaker 2: often a lot of family involved, there's can involve, there's

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Speaker 2: a community, it can happen multiple times throughout the life course.

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Speaker 2: But at its core, we know that the most fundamental

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Speaker 2: universal pattern is these intense pair bonds, and I think

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Speaker 2: when we understand that, when we understand that that ability

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Speaker 2: to fall in love, not all species even have that ability.

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Speaker 2: They don't have it in their brains to be able

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Speaker 2: to do it. We do. Once we understand that, then

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Speaker 2: we can think of our sexual lives or reproductive lives.

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Speaker 2: Are social relationships all sort of gravitating around that, that's

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Speaker 2: the classic pattern, but it varies even whether you might

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Speaker 2: have multiple wives or husbands. But often at its core

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Speaker 2: we still see this primary bond, and then people are

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Speaker 2: trying to navigate that. They're trying to navigate a primary

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Speaker 2: bond with one but then two or three other wives,

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Speaker 2: or in cases of open relationships, how do you navigate

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Speaker 2: your primary partnership in that. So for me, that's really

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Speaker 2: at its core, the evolution of pair bonding that explains

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Speaker 2: so much.

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Speaker 1: Our are very long lifespans, I teach developmental psychology. Our

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Speaker 1: lives just keep getting longer and longer, and in some

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Speaker 1: ways we outgrow our relationships. So I always think that

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Speaker 1: divorce is not a failed relationship, especially when some has

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Speaker 1: been married twenty years. I wouldn't call out a failure

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Speaker 1: like that success exactly. I love.

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Speaker 2: I always love when you say that, and it reminds me.

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Speaker 2: Margaret Mead also used to say, I remember a journalists,

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Speaker 2: Margaret Meade, one the famous anthropologist, why did all three

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Speaker 2: of her marriages fail? And she said, excuse me, all

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Speaker 2: three were a success. It's this idea that what we

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Speaker 2: how we measure success in relationships and new points is

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Speaker 2: out Wendy. It's just said, it's we have to really

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Speaker 2: rethink that that you can have a wonderful relationship, last thing,

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Speaker 2: forever shouldn't be the measure of success in a relationship, right.

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Speaker 1: Duration shouldn't be the litmus test, especially if you're white

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Speaker 1: knuckling it through right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny because I also remember a famous I

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Speaker 1: think it's Margaret Mead. She did not have children, right,

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Speaker 1: the famous anthropologists. And someone once asked her, uh, why

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Speaker 1: did you you know you talk about parenting and maternal

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Speaker 1: nature and why did you never have children? And she

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Speaker 1: deadpan looked at them. And so, because I know too.

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Speaker 2: Much, it's a different challenge.

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Speaker 1: I happen to know that you are a new father.

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Speaker 1: Congratulations baby in September, So you can see what she meant, like,

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't go into parenthood if we actually knew how

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Speaker 1: hard it.

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Speaker 2: Was Yeah, and you know, you could read so many

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Speaker 2: books and then something about the flood of sort of

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Speaker 2: hormones and everything that happens. I mean, our world has

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Speaker 2: one sensor and it's our little baby boy. And and

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Speaker 2: but at the same time, I've thought a lot in

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Speaker 2: the last few weeks about if I wasn't so bonded

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Speaker 2: to my wife Michelle, if we didn't have this this

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Speaker 2: deeply evolved bond. It's such a such a stressful time

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Speaker 2: when you have an infant, that it was a mother

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Speaker 2: in nature's way of protecting the family, that you really

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Speaker 2: have to be in love with your partner to stick

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Speaker 2: through them. In the first month after postpartum, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's just so intense. Yeah, And it's and I I

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Speaker 2: had a new appreciation for the evolutionary science, and I said, oh,

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Speaker 2: thank god, we've got this intense pair of bond because

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Speaker 2: we'll navigate this thing. We did and now we're sleeping

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Speaker 2: more and baby sleeping more. But it's just so and

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Speaker 2: I think that that's part of the story we don't

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Speaker 2: talk about enough with relationships, is the evolution of romantic love.

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Speaker 2: It allows us to weather stormy times, whether it's a baby,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a pandemic, whether it's the economy, whether it's

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Speaker 2: health issues. When you have that strong core bond that

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Speaker 2: we've evolved to keep, it allows us to weather through uncertainty. Now,

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Speaker 2: for our ancestors, that could mean a season of no

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Speaker 2: food or a season of bad weather. For us, it

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Speaker 2: could mean all sorts of different things. But having that bond,

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Speaker 2: we can weather uncertainty with a partner, with a co

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Speaker 2: pilot and get through it.

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Speaker 1: You know. I was helping a young friend recently build

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Speaker 1: her dating app profile and one of the prompts on

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Speaker 1: hinge said something like, what's important to me in a reallylationship?

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Speaker 1: And I said, men fall in love through trust, So

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Speaker 1: just put this that we have each other's back. And

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Speaker 1: she put that one line and she got so many

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Speaker 1: likes from guys like it's like, say, anyway, we have

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Speaker 1: to go to a break. When we come back, I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about the state of our unions now,

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Speaker 1: the rise of situationships, and you touched on open relationships.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how people navigate those because I'm so monogamous.

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Speaker 1: So we need to talk about the research. My guest

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Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Garcia, director of the famed Kinsey Institute.

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Speaker 1: His new book, by the way, coming out is called

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Speaker 1: The Intimate Animal, The Science of Sex, Fidelity and Why

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Speaker 1: We Live and Die for Love. You can pre order

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Speaker 1: it online now. I suggest you do this. We all

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Speaker 1: need to read it. I'm going to be reading it

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Speaker 1: in my sleep tonight at my very special guest, doctor

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Speaker 1: Justin Garcia, director of the famed Kinsey Institute. His new

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Speaker 1: book that's coming out in January, but you can pre

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Speaker 1: order it now, is called The Intimate Animal, Doctor Garcia,

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about what's going on with our life lives?

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Speaker 1: Is marriage continuing to be on a decline? And if so, why?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh gosh, there's so much to say here. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things that's interesting is we're seeing that

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Speaker 2: patterns of people getting into marriages, they're being much more cautious.

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Speaker 2: But for the first time in a long time, those

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Speaker 2: marriages seem to be more stable. So I am not

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Speaker 2: as worried about what's happening to marriages. I actually think

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Speaker 2: we're seeing a new generation of people for being much

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Speaker 2: more cautious. Are you're my mutual friend, the late Helen Fisher.

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Speaker 2: I am a famous anthropologist who studied love. John and

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Speaker 2: I wrote an article called flow love, and it was

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Speaker 2: the term she had coined, and it was this idea

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Speaker 2: that particularly for young people, they're spending more time establishing relationships.

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Speaker 2: They hang out for a long periods of time, they're

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Speaker 2: kind of maybe seeing each other, there may be dating,

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Speaker 2: then their boyfriend girlfriend, then they're in case. For people today,

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Speaker 2: they want to know everything about a partner. They want

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Speaker 2: to google them, they want to know their finances, they

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Speaker 2: want to know their family, their friends. Whereas their parents

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Speaker 2: and grandparents generation, often you didn't know someone that long.

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Speaker 2: You got married. Marriage was the start of this big union.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I read somewhere that in nineteen fifty the

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Speaker 1: average time frame between meeting and marrying was six months.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is stunning to young people today, Like who

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Speaker 2: would do that? I mean even when you hear stories

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Speaker 2: of people who say we only dated for five six months?

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Speaker 2: Who got married? You go on social media people like

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Speaker 2: they're crazy, who does this? Well, your grandparents did it

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Speaker 2: all the time. And but for young people today, marriage

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Speaker 2: is a great finale. You do it after you know

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Speaker 2: everything about someone that you've spent a lot of time.

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Speaker 2: So there, I think what we're seeing is people are

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Speaker 2: shifting what they see is the sort of risks of

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Speaker 2: both marriage but also of love, of their sort of

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Speaker 2: guarding their hearts that from the challenges of relationships. So

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Speaker 2: I don't think I just did. I don't think long

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Speaker 2: term relationships are ending, but how people are thinking about

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Speaker 2: entering them, and the sort of focus on wanting them

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Speaker 2: to be stable. I think in some ways, even and

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Speaker 2: I could talk about it, is I think a little

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Speaker 2: too much focused on wanting them to be stable. I

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Speaker 2: think there's a little bit of fear and preventing people

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Speaker 2: from the exciting ups and downs of relationships. But that's shifting,

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Speaker 2: and it's shifting in the context that we have more

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Speaker 2: single adults in the country than ever before, and more

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Speaker 2: than most developed nations in the world. We have over

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Speaker 2: one hundred million single adults in the United States today. Wow,

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Speaker 2: so changing landscapes.

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Speaker 1: So in some way this is good news. People are

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Speaker 1: marrying later, they're getting lots of experience in life and

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Speaker 1: developing their prefrontal cortex before they're making this important decision,

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Speaker 1: and so in effect, many marriages are better. However, Esther

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Speaker 1: Perell would say that we are asking too much of

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Speaker 1: our partners. We're asking our partner to be the entire

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Speaker 1: village for us, whereas before it was like, Okay, you

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Speaker 1: make the money, I'll take care of the house. We

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Speaker 1: got our roles set down, We're good. We don't have

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Speaker 1: to actually love each other that much. And now we're

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Speaker 1: placing so much emphasis on our partner. Are we asking

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Speaker 1: too much of our romantic partners?

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Speaker 2: I think we are. I agree. Academics call this the

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Speaker 2: suffocation model of marriage, and it's in the in the

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Speaker 2: research literature, and that's exactly right that we have this

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Speaker 2: idea that your partner is the person who does all

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Speaker 2: these things too. They're the person who you had food poisoning,

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Speaker 2: and they're holding your hair as you're vomiting one night,

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Speaker 2: and then in the next morning, you expect them to

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Speaker 2: sexually desire you and want we want all of these

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Speaker 2: needs met by one partner, and sometimes it's just not possible,

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Speaker 2: and we want them met right away, right particularly in

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Speaker 2: this high tech, high speed environment we're in. We want

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Speaker 2: we want it now, or we want we expect our

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Speaker 2: partners to sort of be there and be able to

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Speaker 2: do a lot, and it's too much. Our ancestors had

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Speaker 2: a community, they had a family, they had a village,

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Speaker 2: as we've seen removal of the nuclear family in terms

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Speaker 2: of how much people live and.

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Speaker 1: The extended family. We've moved away from our relatives.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, especially folks like us. Right we were tied to

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Speaker 2: universities or academics, We have careers. You moved to the

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Speaker 2: other side of the country, the other side of the world,

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Speaker 2: so a new family, and you just expect your partner

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Speaker 2: to be the person who can do all this stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's too much. It puts an enormous strain on dating,

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Speaker 2: on early relationships, because you expect all the stuff before

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Speaker 2: you have developed those really intense spots. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: married for five years, you can expect a little bit

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Speaker 2: more from your partner, not when you're dating for a

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Speaker 2: few months.

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Speaker 1: And even recently, I became an ambassador for an organization

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Speaker 1: called the Foundation for Social Connection, and they as ambassadors,

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Speaker 1: they give us monthly assignments to create greater social connections

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Speaker 1: within our community, and we put together groups or dinner

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Speaker 1: parties or what have you. Go sometimes the assignment is

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Speaker 1: to just go meet a neighbor and talk to them.

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Speaker 1: And they're research based, but they have an army of ambassadors.

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Speaker 1: I should tell everybody you can go onto the website

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Speaker 1: for a foundation for social connection and become an ambassador.

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Speaker 1: And they are trying to rebuild these villages and I

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Speaker 1: think ultimately that will help our relationships. Now, let's get

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Speaker 1: into something else. You mentioned these hundred million single adults.

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Speaker 1: We do know that we have an oversupply of successful

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Speaker 1: women in the mating marketplace, women who in their mind

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Speaker 1: don't like to quote unquote date down. I tell them, Look,

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Speaker 1: your idea of a power guy might be a guy

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Speaker 1: who can power a stroller. Okay, But also men who

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Speaker 1: are intimidated by these powerful women. And a lot of

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Speaker 1: these women because now they can enjoy the pleasures of

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Speaker 1: their body, they have birth control and ways to protect themselves.

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Speaker 1: We are seeing a lot of women trapped in these

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Speaker 1: so called situationships, these undefined relationships that involve dating in sex,

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Speaker 1: but no definition. It's not my boyfriend or girlfriend necessarily,

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Speaker 1: and no endgame. We're not poorting on the way to romance.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the rise of situationships and also what

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Speaker 1: women can do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I love this, and I think it's so complicated,

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Speaker 2: it's so real for so many people. Right, this dynamic

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Speaker 2: that's happening on Who's the mating market. Who's your pool

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Speaker 2: of potential partners. And I'm not a moralist. On the

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Speaker 2: one hand, if people want to have casual sex or

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Speaker 2: situationships work for them, I think that's great. The bottom

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Speaker 2: line is that we're seeing it's not working for most

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Speaker 2: people when we look at the data. When we ask people,

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Speaker 2: they're saying, I'm not really that fulfilled with this. I'm

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Speaker 2: sort of scraping pieces together to get some sense of connection,

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Speaker 2: some sense of intimacy, some sense of sexual satisfaction in

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Speaker 2: these situationships, these hookups. They're not real doing it. And

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Speaker 2: that's true for men and women. I think we often

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Speaker 2: think that, you know, men will love it and do

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Speaker 2: it forever. Not true. Not what we see in the

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Speaker 2: data both men and women really find. That's frustrating.

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Speaker 1: And what do you think people can do? I Can

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Speaker 1: they just say, hey, I'm not going to be having

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Speaker 1: sex unless there's some kind of relationship definition here. Can

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Speaker 1: they just be bold?

431
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: I think people can. I mean, one of the challenges

432
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: I think we're seeing with a lot of people is

433
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: we've heard so much about not settling. Don't settle. You

434
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: have to be you know, you have to know what

435
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 2: you want and you can't take anything less. And I

436
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: actually think we that that narrative about not settling for

437
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: anything has done a bit of harm for a lot

438
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 2: of people. I think we've gotten too focused on this

439
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: idea that you have to bring your whole self to

440
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 2: a relationship, you have to be self actualized when you

441
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: come to a relationship, and then your partner has to

442
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: be all these things. And as opposed to this idea,

443
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: you know you want a data CEO. Okay, there's only

444
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: so many of them, But what about this idea that

445
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,640
Speaker 2: you started relationship and together you make a CEO out

446
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: of one of you. That relationships are the container to

447
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: do great things together, to expand your experiences, to push

448
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,640
Speaker 2: your partners to their goals. There's too many people, I think,

449
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: struggling with this fantasy of, you know, the CEOs just

450
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: should be there, that's the person I'm going to date tomorrow,

451
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: as opposed to working towards that together. Relationships are this messy, fun,

452
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: exciting place to experience that together. I think we're a

453
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: little too focused on this idea of I'm not settling,

454
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: I'm not settling. We know that healthy relationships are about

455
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: compromise and creating things together, and I've.

456
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: Always said that we're tod I've always said that what

457
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 1: two people can accomplish together is so much greater than

458
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: what one person can accomplish along. We have to go

459
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 1: to a break. When we come back, I want to

460
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: talk about the rise of these open relationships, and also

461
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: let's touch on breakups and how much they hurt. My

462
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: guest doctor Justin Garcia, director of the famed Kinsey INSTITUTIONE.

463
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 1: His new book is coming out in January. Pre order

464
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: it now. It's called The Intimate Animal. Okay, doctor Garcia,

465
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,959
Speaker 1: what about all this open relationship stuff?

466
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: You know?

467
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: I have a video on my Instagram that went viral

468
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: where I'm sitting on a swing swinging and I basically

469
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: said swinging benefits men a whole lot more than it

470
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: does women, and people argued with me. I will say

471
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: that it went viral because a lot of people disagreed.

472
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: So let's talk about these open relationships.

473
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: I know, and I loved that video, and it was

474
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 2: amazing to watch how many people I big thoughts on

475
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 2: this and have a lot of them feelings. And I

476
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: think it's because it challenges so much of our ideas

477
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 2: that our relationship should be or could be. And for

478
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: a lot of people we're asking questions, they're like, well,

479
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: could I ever open my relationship or what would be

480
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: the challenges? Who would it benefit, how would it work?

481
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,879
Speaker 2: And we know that we know that a lot of

482
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,199
Speaker 2: people at some point have an open relationship. So in

483
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: one of our studies we published a few years ago,

484
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: we found at about one in five Americans have at

485
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 2: some point had some version of an open relationship.

486
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: Really like honestly, I'm going out on a date, honey,

487
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: I'll be back later, hold dinner for me, yeah.

488
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 2: Or whether it's swinging or polyamory or open relationships. Now,

489
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 2: there's a lot of different types. We cast a wide

490
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: net and how we described it. So some are like

491
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: what you're describing, which is really open and known that

492
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 2: you're having other dates, and others it's the couples that

493
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: play together, maybe they go to a sex club or

494
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 2: they There's a lot of different varieties of what it

495
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 2: looked like. But what we found was that although one

496
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 2: in five have at some point had an open relationship,

497
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 2: most did it kind of just occasionally or incidentally, often

498
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 2: when they were younger. So when you ask people are

499
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: you currently in one that number is much much lower.

500
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: Studies suggest well below five percent.

501
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 1: So it doesn't last long, right, it's all fun and games,

502
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: So somebody gets hurt.

503
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And I think that there are some people.

504
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: I'm convinced that there are some people just like we

505
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: vary in our appetites for all sorts of other things.

506
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 2: And you know that you're the psychologist, you know, the

507
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 2: center than anyone, doctor Wallas, is that there's individual differences

508
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: of what we want. I think it's the same thing

509
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: with open relationships. There are some people who could navigate

510
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 2: this that they can, they want and they know how

511
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 2: to have multiple relationships, but for most people it's really challenging.

512
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: It's really challenging to try to have more than one

513
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: intense bond relationship at a time. Now, for some people,

514
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 2: open relationships are just sex. So they're sort of splitting up.

515
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 2: They're saying, well, I have my primary bond that I

516
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: play with other people. But what we know is that

517
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: because of evolution, the processes that have shaped how our

518
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: relationships look, that even when you do that, they have

519
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: to do a lot of different work. To protect the

520
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: primary relationship. You have to really work on trust and communication.

521
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: What are your ground rules you know, do you use protection?

522
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: Do you talk about it? Do you not want to

523
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: ever know about it? Do you? So we're seeing more

524
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: and more chatter about it. There was a great study

525
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: by Aiming a Chapman University that looked at Google search

526
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: trends and what she found was that stuff on polyamory

527
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: and open relationships. It's just it's wildly spiked. People want

528
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: to know more about it, they want to talk about it.

529
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: More people are appearing to try it. But I would

530
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: say it's not It hasn't redefined relationships. It's not like

531
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 2: everyone is in It might feel that way, but not

532
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 2: everyone is in an open relationship right now because they

533
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: come with different challenges.

534
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: Well, yes, like one of them being that when women

535
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: have sex they often emit a lot of oxytocin and

536
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: start to bond and you don't. They accidentally can fall

537
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: in love even if they mean to just play right.

538
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we found them and you and I talked

539
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: about this and when the study came out, it was

540
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: a decade ago now, And on one of our studies

541
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 2: on hookups, we found that fifty one percent of men

542
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: and women no gender difference engaged in casual sets with

543
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 2: the hopes that it would turn into a romantic relationship,

544
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: and sometimes the sexual activity itself, Like you always say,

545
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: give us that physiological response that initiates bonding, so that

546
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: that casual sex isn't always that casual. There's physiological strings

547
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: that can be attached.

548
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: And whether we're talking about open relationships, polyamory, or monogamous relationships,

549
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: at some point, almost every relationship, I hate to say,

550
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: it ends. You know, we have this fantasy that it's

551
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: going to end till death do us power. But let

552
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 1: me tell you, I have had callers listeners on the

553
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: show who our grieving widows and widowers and it's years

554
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: later and they're still grieving. Right, So breakups and loss

555
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: are part of love. Let's talk about really what happens

556
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: neurobiologically when we're in a breakup.

557
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's so important for us to

558
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: really talk, see all of us as a society, to

559
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 2: talk seriously about love, loss and breakups and heartache. And

560
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 2: it's you know, in some ways, these bonds, those bonds

561
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: are so intense. We're wired for these intense connections with

562
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: another person that mother nature takes their ping on the

563
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: flesh when they end, right, they hurt so badly. It's

564
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 2: the price we pay for loving so deeply. And I

565
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 2: don't think that's a bad thing or something we have

566
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: to fear. I mean, I hear so often from young

567
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: people who say, well, you know, breakups are so hard.

568
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: I don't want to go through that. And in some ways,

569
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 2: I think they're afraid of falling in love and having

570
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 2: relationships because of that. And that to me is a

571
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 2: story of we don't deal with this the right way.

572
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: We don't talk about this the right way. We don't

573
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: And it's exactly for what you just said. It's because

574
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 2: when we start to look at the science of breakup,

575
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: so my colleagues of mine put people who have been

576
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 2: romantically rejected into an fMRI brain scanner, and when you

577
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: look at what happens after that rejection, the brain looks

578
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: remarkably like someone going through cocaine withdrawal.

579
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: Wow, it is like a drug addiction.

580
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, and you feel physical pain. So when

581
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: we hear people say that after a breakoup that they

582
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: are exhausted, they're emotional, they're and pain, the parts of

583
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: the brain associate with physical pain are activated. And so

584
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: it's because you're tearing a part in attachment bond and

585
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: you're taking away this dopeapinergic thing the partner from someone

586
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: and it's so challenging, and the way we socially deal

587
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 2: with it will tell people, Okay, get back on the horse,

588
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: start dating someone else. Now there is a little bit

589
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 2: of evidence to the adage best way to get over

590
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: someone to get under someone else. That's true is because

591
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: you can retrigger that response, but the sort of pleasure

592
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: response finding your partners. But I think we don't do

593
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: a good job of greeting relationship law.

594
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: I remember I have another video that went viral where

595
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: I just talked about having dated a guy for a

596
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 1: short period of time and then I could feel him

597
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: pulling away, and rather than me chasing him down and

598
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: trying to reel him back in, I just basically texted

599
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: him goodbye, darling. And he had no answer for why

600
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: he was pulling away when I asked him, and so

601
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: I said, I took the time. You know, I knew

602
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: he wasn't because of this behavior right for me in

603
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: the long term. But it doesn't mean that I didn't

604
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 1: feel lost. I had a cry in the shower. I

605
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: allowed myself to feel sad about this loss, and then

606
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: I went through it and moved on. And that video

607
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: that just telling that story went viral because people aren't

608
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: They don't have the tools for breakups and how to

609
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: survive it. Now, can you confirm for me, am I

610
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: giving the right advice that the best thing to do

611
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 1: is go no contact.

612
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that is the best advice. And I

613
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: think there's two parts of that story. What is your

614
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: story is so powerful because it reminds us that sometimes

615
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 2: you could feel so connected to someone, you can even

616
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 2: love someone, and then the realization that you can't really

617
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: have a healthy relationship with that person. Different thing. Yeah,

618
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: feeling that that draw, but then knowing like can this

619
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: really works? That's one of the hardest lessons many of

620
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 2: us have to learn at some point. But the other

621
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: part of the when we say it doesn't work, or

622
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: when it's broken up or it's over. Yes, I am

623
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: a big advocate of going cold turkey because of this

624
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,640
Speaker 2: neurobiology of addiction that that love. Often we think of

625
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 2: addiction as negative things, as problems, and they often are,

626
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 2: but love is a somewhat positive version of that. It's

627
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 2: a positive, really falance that you you have craving for

628
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: the other, you have obsessive thinking about your partner, all

629
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: these characteristics, but it's often in a more positive LFE.

630
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: So we're not used to thinking of addiction in those ways.

631
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: But when you pull it away, or if it's been

632
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,319
Speaker 2: pulled away from you, you know, you wouldn't show an

633
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: addict pictures of their you know, drug paraphernalia. They would.

634
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: You would say that's crazy on face value. But often

635
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: we break up and we're looking at all texts, and

636
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: we're looking at pictures, and we're smelling that scar.

637
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 1: We're so following them online and we're going to the

638
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: same gym, the same dry cleaners. I'm like, change coffee shops,

639
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 1: change gyms. Just move away, even if they're friends that

640
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: you have in common, just see them less because you

641
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 1: don't want news about.

642
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 2: Your exactly exactly. Hey, we have to we.

643
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: Have to go for another break. When we come back.

644
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: In our final segment, I want to talk about two things.

645
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: One is there's certain things a single people need to

646
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: listen that you can do on a first date to

647
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: try to well psychologically trick your date into falling in

648
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: love with you. Let's talk about that and also why

649
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 1: love is so important to the evolution of the species,

650
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: why we need it, and why it's so good for us.

651
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Waalsh Show on

652
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: KFI AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app listen.

653
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: If you're new to my show, I want to remind

654
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: you I'm here every Sunday from seven to nine pm.

655
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 1: You can also following me on my social media at

656
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 1: doctor Wendy Walsh anywhere. I'm still with I'm fangirling here,

657
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: really I am. I am so in love with doctor

658
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: Justin Garcia and his work. Apparently there's this girl named

659
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: Michelle who took him as a husband, but I'll have

660
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 1: to deal with that, Doctor Garcia, you are the man

661
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: on the research of love. There are single people listening.

662
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: There are few trips that you can use on first

663
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: dates to impress your dates, like right now. I've been

664
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: asked a lot about this one, the misattribution of arousal.

665
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 1: It's a fun one. I don't know that it works

666
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: for long term relationship, but it can certainly get them

667
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: attached to you. Can you explain it?

668
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: Yes? Thanks, and I'm so glad that I'm here from

669
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: a wrap up of this amazing episode. Thank you so

670
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: much and misattribution of arousal. So the studies were initially

671
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 2: done by these psychologists that looked at how actually the

672
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 2: original study is really interesting. They had participants walk across

673
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 2: a bridge, a bridge structure, a very.

674
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: Scary suspension bridge that's half a mile high in Vancouver.

675
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: I've been on it. It's terrifying.

676
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 2: Really, Oh God, I love it. I keep saying one

677
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: day I want to go because it's such an important

678
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 2: psychological study for relationship science. And what they found was

679
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: that on the other end, when people came to the

680
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: other end, there was a confederate, a person who worked

681
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: as part of the research team, and they would when

682
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: men cross the bridge, there would be an exchange of

683
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: a phone number with that person. So if you have

684
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: any questions about this study, you just took part in.

685
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: And the arousal, not in a sexual sense, the arousal

686
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,399
Speaker 2: that people felt from crossing that scary bridge, that their

687
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: heart was pounding, that their adrenaline was runching. They met

688
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 2: this woman on the other side and they attributed that

689
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: physiological response to the woman. And then they would call afterwards,

690
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 2: but not about a study question, but they'd say, oh,

691
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 2: do you want to go out for lunch tomorrow? Do

692
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 2: you want to? So it's this idea that we can

693
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: have a physiological response arousal in the general sense and

694
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,879
Speaker 2: attribute it to the people we're with. And I think

695
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: that is great, but.

696
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 1: We confuse the beating heart of fear with the beating heart.

697
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 2: Of love exactly, exactly.

698
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: And the advice to single people is, you know, go

699
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: on some go kart rides, bungie jumping, some skiing even,

700
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: you know, stuff that gets your heart rate going and

701
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: gets you fear a little bit in your fear zone,

702
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: and that can make you attracted to the person.

703
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 2: You're with, exactly. But we also have to remember don't

704
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: push it too far, because if you feel a little

705
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 2: bit of excitement, a little bit of stress, and you

706
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: attribute it to that person and say, hey, this person

707
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 2: I like, you know, the fun I have with them,

708
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: I feel alive when I'm with them. But if it's

709
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: too much, you then trigger a different physiological response. You

710
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 2: trigger a threat response. That's when you're really afraid. That's

711
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: like the building's on fire.

712
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: So I'm going to tell you one time I went

713
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: on a date with a guy who was a helicopter

714
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: pilot and he did some dipty do things. I never

715
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 1: saw him again. I was like, no, I'm not safe

716
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: with this person.

717
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: No, you need to live to date again. And that's

718
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 2: exactly right. And one way I think about it is

719
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: you would never see toucazelnating in front of a lion

720
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: in the natural world. And when we're in too much

721
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 2: of a fear response, totally shut down meeting psychology, You

722
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 2: shut down any interest and love sex connection because you

723
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 2: just want to get out of it. So you find

724
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 2: these little ways to do something. It's actually why, like

725
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 2: a movie is not a good first date, even though

726
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 2: people always say dinner in a movie. But you want

727
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: to do things that you know, Try a totally new restaurant,

728
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 2: Try an activity, Try a concert. Try you and I

729
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: were talking about comedy shows. It's something that makes you.

730
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 2: You want to try something that can kind of get

731
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 2: your physiology pumping. That's exciting and it's just a little

732
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,399
Speaker 2: bit of a shock. Is a good thing.

733
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: And this is also good advice for people in long

734
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:38,840
Speaker 1: term monogamy to add a little bit of novelty to

735
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: their marriages. Oh yeah, do so fun and exciting, get

736
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:42,840
Speaker 1: out of the house.

737
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Well, you and I were talking not on

738
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 2: the show, but we were talking about the importance of

739
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: date night. So it's in our long term relationships and

740
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 2: doing things that are new, Trying that new restaurant, trying

741
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 2: that new game place in town, that's really helpful. We

742
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: know that in long term relationships that sort of stuff

743
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 2: helps keep the embers of passion going.

744
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: Even just the fact that you're seeing your partner in

745
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 1: a new schema, in a new setting, in a new

746
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: light just can help. And I told that to my

747
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: now husband hu Leo when we were dating, about the

748
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: novelty effect, and he has made it like his primary

749
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 1: thing to show up with tickets to weird things or

750
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 1: a museum to see or whatever. He goes, let's do this,

751
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: this is different. We need novelty, He'll say, we need novelty.

752
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, yes, Before we go, I want us

753
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 1: to talk just briefly about how important love is for

754
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: our mental and physical health. What can you share with

755
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,000
Speaker 1: us based in the research?

756
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: Oh sure, thank you, And I think it's I think

757
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,880
Speaker 2: one of the goals that I had when I wrote

758
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: The Intimate Animal was really getting folks to think about

759
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 2: the science of love and connection and our relationships because

760
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: the more we learn, the more we understand how important

761
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: they are for our psychological well being, our longevity, our

762
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 2: physical health. That these relationships, and even if they don't

763
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,439
Speaker 2: last forever, but these partnerships are so critical, and there's

764
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 2: a lot of different studies that show this. Some of

765
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 2: them have been challenged. There's been research asking methodological questions

766
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: that classically we know that people who are in long

767
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: term relationships live longer, they manage disease better. You can

768
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 2: think if you have a chronic condition and your partner

769
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 2: remembering to put your pills out every morning, that those

770
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 2: people tend to live, they live longer, they respond better.

771
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: And all the breast cancer.

772
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: Studies, why at doing those mole checks.

773
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, I'll do body checks. I'm here and

774
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 2: we know, like in breast cancer studies, espousal support is

775
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 2: one of the biggest particular of survivorships, and so there's

776
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: a lot. There were also these wonderful studies done by

777
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: a scientist ky Coch Glazier, and what they found was

778
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: that oxytocin, that cuddle hormone that's involved in and positive relationships,

779
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 2: is actually associated with wound healing. And so some scientists

780
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: are starting to talk about oxytocin as really being a

781
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 2: part of the immune system, how it functions in our body.

782
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 2: Positive oxytas in your body responds to wounds, healer, you get,

783
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,280
Speaker 2: you deal with illness better. So people sort of jokingly

784
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 2: say love is the best medicine. It's not just a joke.

785
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 2: It's in the data. It's physiological share.

786
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: I have to share something personal and anecdotal. So my husband, Julio,

787
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,920
Speaker 1: had prostate cancer and they were it was at the

788
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: stage of actively monitoring MRIs biopsies, blood work, watching the PSA,

789
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: and we got married. He's a big, big, big cuddler

790
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,320
Speaker 1: more than I am, no less, he's some cuddler, cuddler

791
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 1: cudler at all times. We can't even watch TV unless

792
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: our legs are wrapped around each other. And his last

793
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: biopsy came out cancer free, gone, just disappeared.

794
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 2: Love it so abe.

795
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: That's why, of course the doctor said, well, maybe you

796
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: have a cancer fighting gene. I'm going to go with

797
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:07,760
Speaker 1: happy marriage.

798
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: That's right, He's have a cancer fighting spouse. Listen, and

799
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,399
Speaker 2: we're understanding more and more that power. It's it's not

800
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 2: it's not you know, woo woo uh thinking it's actually

801
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 2: it's based on real scientific evidence of the power to

802
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: ramp up our immune functions. And you guys keep calling,

803
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,359
Speaker 2: keep wrapping those lights around together, and you'll be doing

804
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: it for decades.

805
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: Exactly. Well, Doctor Justin Garcia, thank you so much for

806
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: joining the show. It is always a pleasure. Now, you

807
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: promised me that when your book comes out, we're going

808
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: to do some videos for social media, so people can

809
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: watch out for that. If you follow me on my

810
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: social you'll see doctor Justin and I giving all the

811
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: secrets from his book. In the meantime, I encourage every

812
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: listener to go online. I'm sure it's available everywhere, but

813
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: we can say that Amazon word. Uh, the Intimate Animal

814
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: is the name of the book, The Animal. The subtitle

815
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 1: The Science of Sex, Fidelity and Why We Live and

816
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,399
Speaker 1: Die for Love comes out in January. Pre order it now.

817
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm going to pre order it myself, did you know,

818
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: Doctor Justin. It's important that because people listen on the

819
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app all over the country to this, that the

820
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: algorithm notices when the sales are from different zip codes.

821
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 1: So it's that to keep you and your friends and

822
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: family in one zip code from overordering to try to

823
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,799
Speaker 1: trick it so they like to see. So if you're

824
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: if you're not in Los Angeles or Indiana, make sure

825
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:32,439
Speaker 1: you order the book.

826
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 2: Thank you everyone, always.

827
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: A pleasure to have you. You you have been listening

828
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: to The Doctor Wendy Walls Show on KFI AM six

829
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: point forty Live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app, go the

830
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: twenty four hour KFI Newsroom