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Speaker 1: CD Talk Station. Very happy Friday Eve to you. Brian

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Speaker 1: Thomas was happy to welcome back to the fifty five

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Speaker 1: CARC Morning Show former FOP President Dan Hills. Dan Hills,

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Speaker 1: welcome to the morning show. It's great to have.

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Speaker 2: You on, Brian. It's always great to be on your show.

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Speaker 2: And I hear I might even have an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: do a little little debate with my dear friend, an

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Speaker 2: awesome attorney, Brian Thomas.

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Speaker 1: Great, let's do that.

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Speaker 2: Let's do this about this settlement.

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Speaker 1: This settlement eight point one million dollars improved by Sincinni

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Speaker 1: Council yesterday, sixty five thousand covered by the county, the

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Speaker 1: balance covered by the city taxpayers, all springing from you.

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Speaker 1: Remember Breonna Taylor and George Floyd. There were a couple

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Speaker 1: of incidents in the aftermath of their killings, of course,

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Speaker 1: protests in downtown Cincinnatio as well as elsewhere, protests devolving

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Speaker 1: into criminal activity, which resulted in John Cranley imposing your

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Speaker 1: curfew and pursuing to the curfew. We had people arrested

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Speaker 1: for violating the curfew. Those people heard it up and

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Speaker 1: placed in the Hemlin County Justice Center what they call

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Speaker 1: Sally's Port.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: Those folks sued and the cities decided to settle. This

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Speaker 1: springs from I believe a civil rights violation. The free

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Speaker 1: the First Amendment allows to you know, for us to

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Speaker 1: uh uh to gather together and speak uh. And I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing that's why they've resolved this. Did they not have

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Speaker 1: an exception to the curfew for both people who are

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Speaker 1: exercising the right to free assembly?

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Speaker 2: Dan Hills, Well, you know, I think there was plenty

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Speaker 2: of opportunity for people to have free assembly and to

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Speaker 2: protest what happened. And you just said it was that this, uh,

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Speaker 2: the legal behavior that was happening became a safety issue

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Speaker 2: not only for the police, but for the community. And

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Speaker 2: therefore I thought John Cranley's actions were just. And this

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Speaker 2: is where my you know, my confusion lives was Scottie

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Speaker 2: Johnson and maybe or maybe not you as well that

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Speaker 2: thinking that the settlement is just. I think I think

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Speaker 2: this settlement, the settlement is a rip off of the taxpayers.

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Speaker 2: And I think at some point, point, you know, law

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Speaker 2: departments like the City of Cincinnati needs to draw the line.

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Speaker 2: These folks knew the rules as they were being put

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Speaker 2: out there that there was there was some you know, uh,

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Speaker 2: big boy and big girl games going on, and it

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Speaker 2: was within the mayor's rights and it was within the

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Speaker 2: police department's duties to enforce this this curfew to help

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Speaker 2: me keep the communities safe. And so you know, I

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Speaker 2: did a little break down with the numbers. It was

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Speaker 2: actually eight million, one hundred and forty three thousand once

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Speaker 2: you include that mass of sixty five thousand dollars from

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Speaker 2: the county kicking in. I don't know what that's all about.

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Speaker 2: And you deducted the attorney sees two million dollars I

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Speaker 2: think to two million and thirty five thousand. So there's

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Speaker 2: where a lot of the motivation comes from. You have

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Speaker 2: attorneys willing, yeah, all these lawsuits, and if this city

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Speaker 2: in the law department would really effectively battle some of

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Speaker 2: these things, I don't know if these folks could come up,

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Speaker 2: you know, with attorneys that are willing to do this.

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Speaker 2: So that leaves six million, one hundred and eight thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars divided by four hundred and seventy nine people. And

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Speaker 2: this is where I actually have to ask you a question, Brian.

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Speaker 2: The twelve seven hundred and fifty one dollars and I

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Speaker 2: rounded up to fifty seven cents. Is there is there

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Speaker 2: taxes taken out of a settlement like that for these individuals.

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Speaker 1: I do not believe so.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I didn't think so either, But I want to

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Speaker 2: ask you for sure.

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Speaker 1: It's supposed to be an award for damages. It's an

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Speaker 1: award for damages.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I guess the process is I see it. You had

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Speaker 1: the protest going on which devolved into illegal behavior, you know,

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Speaker 1: property damage, will you know, throwing bottles of people, whatever

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Speaker 1: the case may be. Then currently comes in and says

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Speaker 1: ten pm curfew, ten pm curfew is violated. Not in

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Speaker 1: my understanding is that the folks were arrested for a

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Speaker 1: curfew violation, not because they engaged in criminal activity. You could,

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, if you threw a bottle, broke

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Speaker 1: a window, wrestling for property damage, that'd be fine and

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Speaker 1: no one would settle that. But merely because they were

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Speaker 1: out congregating and protesting, speaking their voices about Breonna Taylor

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Speaker 1: and George Floyd, they were gathered up and arrested for

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Speaker 1: a curfew violation. Now, I don't know that Cranley has

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Speaker 1: the right to trump the First Amendment right to freedom

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Speaker 1: of assembly. He can't do that, and that's why the

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Speaker 1: curfew that he that was issued by the mayor over

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Speaker 1: the summer of evolving the teens gathering in Government Square,

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Speaker 1: that contained an exception for First Amendment gatherings. So maybe

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Speaker 1: that's what was absent from the Cranley proposal. You can't

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Speaker 1: arrest me for being out past ten pm if I

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Speaker 1: am engaging in a you know, a political protest. That's

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Speaker 1: I think the point of the plaintiffs.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think the I think the motivation for mister

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Speaker 2: Cranley and then the police was that there were criminal

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Speaker 2: activity that was spawning from these political protests, and there

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Speaker 2: was plenty of time and room for political protests. Nobody

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Speaker 2: was stopping political protests. We were picking the time and

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Speaker 2: the groups where there was also criminal activity coming out

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Speaker 2: of And Brian, you have to realize this. You can't

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Speaker 2: always sit there and pick out in a large group,

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Speaker 2: who is it that's just thrown a bottle of urine

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Speaker 2: at the cops. When a group has people starting to

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Speaker 2: act in that fashion and citizens are risk and cops

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Speaker 2: are at risk, at some point you have to take

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Speaker 2: control of the situation. And it's not to squaw anybody's

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Speaker 2: first amendments, right, it's it's for the safety of the citizens. Look,

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of these people, even before their

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Speaker 2: twelve thousand dollars, had check stubs from George Soros in

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Speaker 2: their pocket.

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Speaker 1: More or less, there.

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Speaker 2: Are professional protesters in these groups, and they know what

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Speaker 2: they're doing. And part of it they know what they're

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Speaker 2: doing is they know that cities like the City of

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Speaker 2: Cincinnati are going to settle.

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Speaker 1: Hold On, we're not done with this, and since we're

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Speaker 1: way over time in the segment, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: get the Harry eyeball from Joe, So hold on a second,

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Speaker 1: we'll continue with Dan Hills on this seven thirty eight

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Speaker 1: right now. If you I have KCD talk station, let

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Speaker 1: me recommend the best roofing company that exists, Fastened pro Roofing,

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Speaker 1: Superior Work, and I love seven forty two. If you

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Speaker 1: have KCD talk station. Brian Thomas with former FOP president

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Speaker 1: Dan Hills. He was around back in twenty twenty when

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Speaker 1: we had the May twenty ninth riots and protests dissolving

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Speaker 1: into criminal activity resulting in the issuance of a curfew

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Speaker 1: by John Cranley ten PM curfew resulting in a bunch

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Speaker 1: of people getting arrested for curfew violations real quick. Since

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Speaker 1: a couple of people instant messaged me about the whole

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Speaker 1: idea of the paid protesters, I will acknowledge and agree

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Speaker 1: without knowing specifically that there were probably a lot of

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Speaker 1: them there. We do have the freedom to travel in

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Speaker 1: this country, and I think the fact that they had

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Speaker 1: to pay people to show up at any given protest

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Speaker 1: is an illustration of the failure. Their message isn't what

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Speaker 1: drew the people there. It's the fact that they got

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Speaker 1: a check. But that's lawful behavior too, so you got

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge that. So they're all there milling around. Can

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Speaker 1: you arrest them for milling around? Or do we have

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Speaker 1: to As you point out how difficult it is to

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Speaker 1: figure out which is the guy who threw the bottle

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Speaker 1: of urine, But that's the person that should be charged

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Speaker 1: with a crime. Arresting everyone for violating the curfew, I

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Speaker 1: think that's where you run a foul. But to your point,

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Speaker 1: eight point one million dollars divided by the multitude twelve

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars roughly per person, I guess the reason you settle.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not happy about this. Dan in any way,

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Speaker 1: shape or form. But how much money might they have

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Speaker 1: gotten if a jury decided the award. I think that's

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Speaker 1: why they ended up settling. Now, maybe the amount was

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Speaker 1: a capitulation.

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Speaker 2: That's what they're reporting why they settled.

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Speaker 1: Well, I listen, I was a litigation attorney for a

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Speaker 1: long time. A lot of my clients agreed to settle

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Speaker 1: over their best belief that they didn't do anything wrong

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Speaker 1: because the potential downside outweighed the check they had to write.

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Speaker 2: Look an attorney or a jurist or anything. Myself, as

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Speaker 2: we debate this, I'm just an eldergred. But in my mind,

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Speaker 2: a society has to be able to institute emergency orders

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Speaker 2: such as Cranley did. I think the police department has

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Speaker 2: to be able to tell a crowd to dispersed when

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Speaker 2: there's legal, illegal activity coming out of that crowd, when

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Speaker 2: the community is a danger and the cops are at danger,

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Speaker 2: and the only way to enforce that in the end

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Speaker 2: is an arrest. So I was down there, I saw

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Speaker 2: all this stuff at taking place. I thought, just as Scotti,

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Speaker 2: Johnson and the vice mayor, all these people who are

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Speaker 2: voting on this settlement are saying that the cops did

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Speaker 2: everything right. I mean, I think some of the greatest

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Speaker 2: suffering apparently came from when they already were handed off

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Speaker 2: to the county. You only asked to basically five thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars because they had to wait a long long time

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Speaker 2: and cramp up before they could go potty while they

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Speaker 2: were sitting in the sally port. But finally, who I

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Speaker 2: was getting twelve thousand dollars cash at the end of it.

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Speaker 2: And you know, me and Joe wanted to go protest

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Speaker 2: to weather or something like that, I'd be filling out

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Speaker 2: my bottles of urine right now, because that's that's quite

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Speaker 2: the payday for him to sit around in May. Now.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I want to sit in a sallyport

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Speaker 2: in December, especially not this December. But if I'm sitting,

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting down there. I don't know. I believe in

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Speaker 2: the end that this is way too much money for

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Speaker 2: way too little of any type of constitutional violation by

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Speaker 2: the state in this case, which is the city of

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Speaker 2: Cincinnati in Hamilton County. They were doing what was necessary

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Speaker 2: at the time. John Cranley made the difference between what

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Speaker 2: happened in Cincinnati and there I go when I'm preparing

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Speaker 2: my legal brief. One of the things of evidence I'm

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Speaker 2: going to bring Brian is what was happening in other cities.

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Speaker 2: There are cities were literally burning down, and the City

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Speaker 2: of Cincinnati did it because we got pro proactive in

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Speaker 2: stopping these crowds stuff. It's just not as easy as

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Speaker 2: you and I would like it to be. We'd like

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Speaker 2: to be able to reach in with a crane and

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Speaker 2: pick up the pick up the worst actors in a

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Speaker 2: crowd like that, but it doesn't work that way when

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with full large crowd and at some point

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Speaker 2: you have to make the decision to disperse the crowd,

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Speaker 2: and the crowd doesn't disperse, you have to make a rest.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and I can get all that.

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Speaker 2: I believe what we did was just you did.

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Speaker 1: What you did was appropriate within the or the orders

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Speaker 1: that you had and the issuance of what everyone thought

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Speaker 1: was a lawful curfew. You followed what the mayor said.

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Speaker 1: He instituted the curfew that comes with the possibility of

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Speaker 1: arrest if you violated. There's I don't think anyone's pointing

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Speaker 1: a finger at you specifically. I think it's the underlying

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Speaker 1: curfew that is being challenged, and I don't for a minute.

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Speaker 2: Proper do you think, girl, or that that's the part

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Speaker 2: I don't understand. Was it worded improperly?

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Speaker 1: No, I think because.

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Speaker 2: It was well. It was necessary to stop the city

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Speaker 2: from ending up like the other places. We didn't want

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Speaker 2: to look like Minneapolis. We don't want to be burning

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Speaker 2: to the ground. And and you know, all all hail

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Speaker 2: to a Democratic leader at the time, John Grantley, who

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Speaker 2: who took the bull by the horns. And if the

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Speaker 2: law Department prepared his curfew order improperly or if you know,

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Speaker 2: somehow it was was put out there where the criminal

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Speaker 2: charges we were told to use were not the right

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Speaker 2: criminal charges. I didn't see that in any of the

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Speaker 2: articles I read. It just sounded like we're going to

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Speaker 2: pay these people off because they filed a lawsuit. And

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Speaker 2: if that's what happened, it just invites more of this

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Speaker 2: because there will be another reason to protest. Like I said,

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Speaker 2: you know, Ninjo might protest this weather. There's a reasons

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Speaker 2: and you will come down.

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Speaker 1: The road that and you would be allowed to do that.

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Speaker 1: And then if you and Joe started throwing urine bottles

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Speaker 1: and hitting people, you would be subject to arrest for

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Speaker 1: you know, assault, battery or whatever comes along, or whatever

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Speaker 1: charges exist for engaging that type of behavior. But if

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Speaker 1: you just stand there screaming about the weather was too

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Speaker 1: That was my next question.

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Speaker 2: Testing the weather that's too big to pick me and

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Speaker 2: Joe out of. Somebody's going to have to do some

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Speaker 2: sort of order or something to break up, right. That

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Speaker 2: was my next ques recruiting, But that.

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Speaker 1: Was my next question. The dispersal order. You were there

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Speaker 1: were people blocking the streets preventing people from free movement.

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Speaker 1: There you go, then it's a dispersal order.

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Speaker 2: Way, then their way to the expressways.

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Speaker 1: Then then you arrest them for free refusal to violate

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Speaker 1: a dispersal order and for blocking traffic and other things

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Speaker 1: that already exist on the book as opposed to you're

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Speaker 1: being arrested for being on past ten pm.

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Speaker 2: I see your point, But once it got past ten pm,

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Speaker 2: there's a little thing that comes called darkness that made

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Speaker 2: it harder and harder to identify who was it that

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Speaker 2: was was was causing a lot of these issues and

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Speaker 2: lots not forget not only what was happening in other cities.

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Speaker 2: We had a policeman and got shot here in Cincinnati.

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Speaker 2: Uh we we we had a whole whole lot on

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Speaker 2: our hands. And I was one of the ones that

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Speaker 2: was there, that was also there in two thousand and one,

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Speaker 2: so I saw the difference between the two different occurrences.

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Speaker 2: And in two thousand and one, things got way out

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Speaker 2: of hand, and a lot of people got hurt, really

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Speaker 2: really badly, and a lot of businesses got burned, and

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Speaker 2: things happened that did not happen because again Cranly made

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Speaker 2: steps and gave us orders, and we went out there

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Speaker 2: and enforced them, including the curfew. But I was also there, Brian,

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Speaker 2: and I saw a whole lot of demonstrations, purely demonstrations. Now, Graham,

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Speaker 2: they might have been blocking Central Parkway, but we even

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Speaker 2: put up with that so the day could speak their voice.

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Speaker 2: Nobody in their right mind that witnessed all that could

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Speaker 2: honestly say that people did not have an opportunity to

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Speaker 2: express their First Amendment rights. They expressed them, and expressed

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Speaker 2: them and expressed them all along as they shouted guiness

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Speaker 2: at the cops and everything else. There was. There was

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Speaker 2: no heavy boot of of you know, some communist government

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Speaker 2: stepping on, stepping on people and saying you can't speak.

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Speaker 2: They were able to speak. But when it got to

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Speaker 2: the point where we were concerned that that there was

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Speaker 2: going to be a mass criminal activity, that's when that's

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Speaker 2: when that had to be stepped up and there had

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Speaker 2: to hear rest. And again, they're playing a big boy,

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Speaker 2: big girls game. A lot of these folks were paid protesters,

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Speaker 2: and so they they had to wait a long time

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Speaker 2: till they wanted the potty. I have no sympathy for

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Speaker 2: them whatsoever. You're hanging with a group like that. If

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Speaker 2: I went down there because I really believed in their

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Speaker 2: message and I wanted to demonstrate for a while, and

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Speaker 2: then I start to see the activity of some of

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Speaker 2: the people around me, and I saw the police starting

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Speaker 2: have to gear up because of that activity, I would leave.

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Speaker 2: And for those folks who chose not to leave, you

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Speaker 2: get caught up in it, I'm sorry, that's that's that's

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Speaker 2: the way it went for you. But you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: not in a position to argue, you know, legal stuff

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Speaker 2: about whether or not the order was put out correctly

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Speaker 2: or something like that. The city screwed that up. That's

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Speaker 2: not a big You're not going to see my shock

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Speaker 2: face on that.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really all that's being addressed. In all,

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Speaker 1: I really think that's all this being addressed is the

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Speaker 1: city issued in order that may have Listen, the Constitution

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Speaker 1: doesn't say anything about ending at ten pm your free

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Speaker 1: assembly rights. That's I think that's the legal thing behind this.

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Speaker 1: You and I can agree all day long, bad things

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Speaker 1: were happening, that people were blocking the streets, all of

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Speaker 1: which we should have resulted in dispersal order and then

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Speaker 1: being perhaps arrested for failure to heed the dispersal warning

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Speaker 1: and order. I don't know. It's complicated, it's steeped in

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Speaker 1: legal challenges, but let me just observe this real quick

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Speaker 1: as we part comedy, Dan Hills, and I appreciate your

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Speaker 1: willingness to talk about this eight million dollars, as stupid

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Speaker 1: as that amount may be and as unsettling as you

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Speaker 1: and I might find it considering the money that's going

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Speaker 1: to these people, perhaps paid post protesters. I bet the

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Speaker 1: fact that you did break the crowd up save the

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Speaker 1: city a lot more than eight point one million dollars

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Speaker 1: in terms of the damage that was avoided.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, that that is good? You got me, all right?

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Speaker 1: Fair enough? If that's what we have to live with.

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Speaker 1: That's how we'll get through at Dan Hills On behalf

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Speaker 1: of my listening audience and my family to yours, very

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Speaker 1: merry Christmas brother. I hope they have you on again

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Speaker 1: real soon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Great, Merry Christmas to you and Joe as well.

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Speaker 1: Thanks man seventy to fifty five caseyy talk