1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: It's nice. I'm going easy Boston's news Radio. 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 2: Well, all right, let's do this. Thanks for being with me. 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 2: Bradley Jay in for Dan Ray. It is night Side 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: on a Tuesday, I believe. Please let me know if 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 2: that's not right. Here's what's going to go down today. 6 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the flu. I need to 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: know if you got your vaccine yet, and I need 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 2: to know if not, why not. I need to know 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 2: if you had the flu and if it was devere 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 2: supposed to be really, really bad. And I mentioned the vaccinations. 11 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 2: Did you get vaccinated? If not, why not? Are you 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: worried about the side effects of the vaccine? 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 3: We? 14 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: If so, which side effects? You just not like vaccines? 15 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: If have you ever taken a look at the side 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: effects of the vaccine versus the long term side effects 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: of the disease itself. With flu vaccine and COVID vaccine, 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 2: I do want to find find out about some other 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 2: vaccines like r SV. I have a question about that. 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 2: My doctor actually initially told me not to get it. 21 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: And he was an old school doctor. He was not 22 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: anti vaxx at all. He was gung ho and all 23 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: the other vaccinations. Told me initially hold off on that 24 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 2: I'm hearing something about neurological symptoms. Then later on he said, yeah, 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 2: go ahead and get it, but I was a little 26 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: put off, so I haven't gotten it yet. Maybe we'll 27 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: find out what's the deal is with that. We certainly 28 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 2: have an expert on all that. We're going to have 29 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 2: doctor she Dora, chief infection control officer for Toughs Medicine 30 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 2: and a hospital epidemiologist at Tofts Medical Center. She's going 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: to talk to us about the flu and vaccines and 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: all that stuff. And then about quarter of nine, just 33 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 2: for one little segment, Michael Coin into the Massachusetts schol 34 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: of Law. It is going to check in to talk 35 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: about the hit and run, the alleged hit and run 36 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: on the comm aff. On the comm aff, mall get 37 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: some details on that. It's a strange and horrible, horrible story. 38 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: It's just so awful and there's a lot of there 39 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: are a lot of questions. And then we're going to 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: hear from Bridge Over Troubled Waters. I was on these 41 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 2: on the tee, which I love, as you know, and 42 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 2: I saw a tea advertisement for Bridge Over Troubled Waters. 43 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 2: Realized they do a lot for the community and I 44 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 2: should have them on, so we'll talk to those folks 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 2: as well, and then later in the night kind of 46 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: open lines. But I do want to share something that 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 2: happened to me on the way to work. I I'll 48 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 2: give you the little bit of a heads up on that. 49 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: I get on the MBTA. Well, first I get on 50 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 2: and it was really crowded, and I thought, with this 51 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 2: flu I don't like being in this crowded car. It 52 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: was in this woman had two kids and she's blowing 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: her nose, and I thought, oh, I'm getting off because 54 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 2: it was just too crowded. The next one was only 55 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 2: seven minutes away. I thought, I used my genius to 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: deduce that the next one might be less crowded. It was. 57 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: I got on that and I'm listening to my headphones, 58 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: listening to my music, looking at possible topics on the phone, 59 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: and a woman comes up and says, she says something 60 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 2: I can't hear. I say, I take out my earbuds. 61 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 2: Excuse me. She says, do you want to go to 62 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: church on Sunday? I said no. I didn't say it 63 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: exactly like that. I wasn't mean or anything. I just 64 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: said no, thanks, And I didn't want to be bothered. 65 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: But then I thought, weed a minute, I should talk 66 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: to her. I gotta find out what she's selling, what's up. 67 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: So I ended up talking to her from about Longwood 68 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: on the D Line to North Station, where I switched 69 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: to get on the Orange Line, and I asked her 70 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 2: a lot of questions about the Church of Latter Day Saints. 71 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: So I'm going to tell you what I found out 72 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: because I didn't know it and maybe you don't know it. 73 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: It's one thing to read it in a book or 74 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: hear it on a talk show, but for me to 75 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,239 Speaker 2: actually talk to one of the one of these folks. 76 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: There are actually two of them on the train, working 77 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 2: in tandem, probably for safety, and it's very interesting. And 78 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you at that time, what do 79 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 2: you know about the Church of Latter Day Saints. I'd 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: like to learn more. I don't know much some of 81 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: you do. I've looked up. I learned a lot from 82 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: these two women. I don't think they'd lie. And I'll 83 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 2: tell you what my impressions, and I'm sure some of 84 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: you know a lot more about it than I do. 85 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 2: And I would love it if you would share. Now 86 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: back to the flu this year, Massachusetts Department of Health 87 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: reporting very high, very high, and rising levels of influenza 88 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: activity statewide as we move through this peak flu season 89 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: and lots of folks who are experiencing serious complications leading 90 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 2: to increased visits to the hospital. A lot of people 91 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 2: are going to the hospital, and emergency apartments are getting 92 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: packed and very unfortunately, this flu has already been reported 93 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 2: to be associated with the deaths of three pediatric patients, 94 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: and last week, every day there were about nine thousand 95 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 2: emergency department visits statewide in a day, approximately one quarter 96 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: of those related to acute respiratory illness, including the flu 97 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 2: COVID nineteen and this thing that's a mystery to me, 98 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 2: and I hope to find out more RSV. And one 99 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: question I'm going to have for the doctor is my 100 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: research tells me that they don't recommend RSV until you're 101 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 2: seventy four. Over seventy four, Why is that? Why would 102 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: you recommend waiting? Is it that they don't have much 103 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 2: of the vaccine or is it that there's something bad 104 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: about it that I don't know? Why would I got 105 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 2: to find out? Why would you wait till seventy four 106 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: if it's a good vaccine. It's not like you're immune 107 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 2: to it until seventy four. Now, the risks are associated 108 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: with the actual flu, you know, are far more severe 109 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: than the potential outside effects of a vaccine. I still 110 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 2: don't get why only thirty four percent of people in 111 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 2: Massachusets vaccinated for the flu this year. What is the deal? 112 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: I'm curious. I'm not yelling at you. I'm curious. What's 113 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: the deal? You just didn't have the time you're gonna bother. 114 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: You don't like the flu vaccine, you don't like getting shots, 115 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 2: or you fear the side effects of the vaccine. I 116 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: know many very smart people who don't trust vaccines, so 117 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: we can certainly talk about that. Where are you on that? 118 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 2: By the way, a flu can knock you down for 119 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 2: two weeks? Well, obviously the flu can kill you, but 120 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 2: flu can easily knock you down for two weeks a 121 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: few days to two weeks, high fever, extreme fatigue, muscle aggs, cough, 122 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: and sore throat. I can deal with them. Fatigue, I 123 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: can deal with the shakes and the muscle aches. But 124 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: the cough, no way. I hate coughs and I hate 125 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: sore throats. Serious complications can include pneumonia, inflammation of the 126 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:12,679 Speaker 2: heart or brain, and respiratory failure. That's serious complications from 127 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 2: the disease. That's really bad compared to the few and milder, well, 128 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: the complications from the vaccine itself. I think, is it 129 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: that you just don't trust big business? Is it that 130 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: you don't trust big pharma? Honestly, I get that one 131 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: hundred percent. One hundred percent. You got to remember, any 132 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 2: public company, the people that run that have a fiduciary 133 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 2: responsibility to the shareholders. They do not have a responsibility 134 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: to you. That's a legal responsibility to make as much 135 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: money for the shareholders as they can, and that that's 136 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 2: unfortunate if the product they sell happens to be medicine. 137 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: So I understand the conflict there. We're going to get 138 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 2: this all sorted out with that our guests right after 139 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 2: this break on WBZ. 140 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:10,359 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's 141 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: news radio. 142 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: Okay, let's try to stay healthy here. Let's try to 143 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 2: talk about the flu and how to avoid it, vaccines, 144 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 2: et cetera. With an expert. I'm not really an expert. 145 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: I don't even play one on the radio. We have 146 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: with us doctor Shira Doron, chief Infection Control Officer for 147 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: Tough's Medicine and hospital epidemiologists for Tough Medical Center, and 148 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about this flu season. Thanks for being with. 149 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 4: Us, doctor, great to be with you. 150 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 2: No, how serious Excuse me, I'm not sick. I promise. 151 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: How serious is this the season this year? Not only 152 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 2: in terms of the numbers but the severity. 153 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, the thing that we're most concerned about right now 154 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 4: with the flu season is how steep the curve is 155 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 4: in the upward throughout. It's really heading kind of straight up, 156 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 4: and so we don't know how far it's going to 157 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 4: get up there. We're not at the peak at the 158 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: level of last year's peak. We're pretty far from it still. 159 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,079 Speaker 4: So you know, we've we've been worse and we've been 160 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 4: worse in the past year. The question is, you know, 161 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 4: we're we're actually a month earlier in the in the 162 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 4: curve than we were last year. So we're seeing the 163 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 4: same numbers today that we would have seen, you know, 164 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 4: in more like February of last year. So will it 165 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 4: given that extra time to go up, will it get 166 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 4: even higher than what we saw last year, which was 167 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 4: a bad flu season, or will it just peak early 168 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 4: and come down early, which is what we hope. 169 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: How bad can it get? Can it get to the 170 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 2: point where, you know, the society kind of squeeches to 171 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: a hot like covid or Is flu never that serious, 172 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: never that big a deal? 173 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 4: It certainly can and you know, certainly we've we've had 174 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 4: pandemic years where flu has you know, overwhelmed to some 175 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: extent hospital capacity. I mean, we have hospitals in our 176 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 4: state reporting that they have many, many patients waiting in 177 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 4: the emergency room for a hospital that so that's not 178 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 4: a situation we want to be in. So we don't 179 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 4: necessarily think this is a flu pandemic, but it's a 180 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 4: bad strain. And it's bad because you know, flu does 181 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 4: mutate and evolve over time, and in this particular year, 182 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 4: the virus mutated such that the vaccine that we have 183 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 4: been given isn't a great match to what's circulating. And 184 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 4: that happens. That happens, you know, quite often when it 185 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 4: when it's mutated like that, you know, not only can 186 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 4: we expect the vaccine uh to be less effective, but 187 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:07,239 Speaker 4: we also don't have a level of community immunity against 188 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 4: the flu from prior infection. So even the last year 189 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 4: was a bad flu year and a lot of people 190 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 4: got the flu, that would normally protect us in the 191 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 4: following year, but it's not going to as well because 192 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 4: the virus is mutating. And that does that mean you 193 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 4: should not bother to go out and get a flu 194 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 4: shot because the bad match. No, quite the opposite. The 195 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 4: flu shot can still be effective, particularly at preventing severe disease, hospitalization, 196 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 4: and death, even when it's not a great match at 197 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 4: preventing infection. But what you're going to see is a 198 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 4: lot of infections. 199 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: You know, I have a question I want to ask 200 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 2: you before I forget, and that is some people don't 201 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: wear masks because they say you can get the flu anyway. 202 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: But it seems to me that mass could reduce severity 203 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: because it could reduce the load you're infected with, and 204 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 2: maybe your body would have a shot at fighting off 205 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand germs rather than a two billion. If 206 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: somebody cops right in your face without a mask, Does 207 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 2: the mask make a difference in severity? 208 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question. It's a theory. It's an 209 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 4: inoculum theory. Does the amount of germ virus in this 210 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 4: case that you get exposed to affect severity. It's been asked. 211 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 4: It's been asked about COVID, and it's something that's difficult 212 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 4: to study and has not been proven one way or 213 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 4: the other. 214 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: So you can't do it. There's no way to test 215 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: that you'd think there would be. You could introduce smaller amounts. 216 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you anything you haven't thought of. 217 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: You can introduce smaller amounts in that test subject and 218 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 2: more in the other and see if on a routine basis, 219 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 2: the one that got the most viral load got sicker. 220 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 4: You're right, No, it could in a large study with 221 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 4: a lot of people getting introduced to whether it's a 222 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 4: potentially deadly virus, and so you know, the ethics of 223 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 4: that have been called into question and it hasn't really 224 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 4: been done. 225 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: Interesting. Okay, Now are you disturbed that only thirty four 226 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: percent of I had? The number I have is thirty 227 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: four percent of folks get vaccinated, and that's down a 228 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: little bit from last year, which I understand was thirty 229 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 2: six Those numbers I have, are those correct? And why 230 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 2: do two thirds of people not get vaccinated? 231 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 4: Yeah? I am disturbed, and you know I think a 232 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 4: little bit down from last year, but quite a bit 233 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 4: down from prior years. And that is a reflection of 234 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 4: this growing vaccine skepticism, vaccine hesitancy that we're seeing throughout 235 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 4: the country, throughout the world really and that we are 236 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 4: not immune to pun intended here in Massachusetts. And we 237 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,479 Speaker 4: know what some of the reasons are for that vaccine 238 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 4: aptism as inc there is there is misinformation, but there 239 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 4: are other reasons. COVID really, you know, did a number 240 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 4: on our society in so many ways. And one of 241 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 4: the ways was that actually the way that some of 242 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 4: the aspects of the pandemic were handled, you know, by 243 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 4: science communicators, public health communicators even like myself, ended up 244 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 4: causing more distrust in some arena than by some people 245 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 4: of public health recommendations. And I think we have to, 246 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 4: you know, take ownership of that and figure out how 247 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 4: to reverse some of that. The decisions and the announcements 248 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 4: that have been made by the current federal administration and 249 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 4: federal health officials are unfortunately contributing to confusion, chaos, uh 250 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 4: and and skepticism about the safety of vaccines in such 251 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 4: a way that we are seeing lower vaccination rates that 252 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 4: do have the potential to increase, you know, the severity 253 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 4: of flu season in terms of how many people are 254 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 4: infected and hospitalized and how many people die from flu. 255 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 4: You did ask about the severity of the flu virus 256 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 4: this year, and you know, there's no reason to think 257 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 4: that it's a more dangerous virus other than that there's 258 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 4: not as much immunity to it because people are less 259 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:24,239 Speaker 4: well vaccinated. 260 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 2: So people, Do you think people underestimate how nasty the 261 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: flu is? 262 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I think so, And I think that 263 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 4: what people might not realize is that the majority of 264 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 4: people who do develop severe flu and die of flu, 265 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 4: adults and children, actually don't have underlying medical conditions. Yes, 266 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 4: we know that there are risk factors for severe disease, 267 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 4: and if you are someone with a lot of medical problems, 268 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 4: you're at high risk for severe flu. But if you 269 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 4: have no medical problems, you still could get severe flu 270 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: and die from flu. And that's why they're a blanket recommendation, 271 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 4: or there was in the past from CBC for everyone 272 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 4: to get vaccinated against empluenza every year over the age 273 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 4: anyone who's over six months of age. 274 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 2: Have you done any studies on the reasons people are 275 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 2: hesitant besides the disinformation, other reasons, they're concerns why they 276 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 2: don't get the vaccine. It would be important to know 277 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: that to address that. 278 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there are there are a lot of reasons, 279 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 4: and there is I don't want to imply that it's 280 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 4: not okay to ask questions and to wonder about whether 281 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 4: you know certain vaccines are safe put in your body. 282 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 4: There's a growing the love of being all things natural 283 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 4: in society, and in many ways that's a good thing. 284 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 4: People are eating healthier, people are questioning what they put 285 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 4: in their body in terms of chemical additives and food, 286 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 4: and vaccines can fullow to that category to some extent, 287 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 4: and so it's really important to have a trusted physician 288 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 4: who could talk to you about the pros and cons 289 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 4: the risks and benefits. And unfortunately, a very large proportion 290 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 4: of our society, even in Massachusetts, doesn't have a primary 291 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 4: care doctor, and that plays a role as well, and 292 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 4: you know, not being not having the tools to educate 293 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 4: the public about vaccine. 294 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: All right, you're a trusted for physician, So why don't 295 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: we take a bit of time after this break too 296 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: speak to people about the risk versus the reward. The 297 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: risk of long term flu, severe flu, and the complications 298 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 2: of that versus the perceived complications or the complication the 299 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 2: actual complications of the vaccine. The risk reward seems to 300 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 2: me of not getting a flu vaccine is out of 301 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: whack and it doesn't make sense risk reward wise. And now 302 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: I understand people were nervous about covid vat they hadn't 303 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 2: tested that MNRA that that type of vaccine at least 304 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 2: that's what the folks thought. I kind of get that, 305 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: But people have been getting flu vaccines for a long time. 306 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: It's free. I mean no, there's no such thing as 307 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 2: really free. But you don't have to pay any extra 308 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 2: to get it. It's easy, and it's it's it can 309 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: help you anyway. We'll break and we'll talk to Jeff 310 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: in Abington and we'll continue with our doctor in a 311 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 2: moment on WBZ. 312 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's 313 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: news radio in Massachusetts. 314 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: Only thirty four percent of you, approximately I've kind of 315 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: vaccinated against the flu. Why And we're also going to 316 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 2: talk continue with our guest doctor Shira Doron to explain 317 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 2: the risk rewards to doubters. Maybe we can save a 318 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 2: couple of lives and certainly save a lot of misery. 319 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 2: Let's go to Jeff and Abington. Hello, Jeff, what do 320 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: you What do you have for us? He must have 321 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 2: accidentally hit the button that was not me when my 322 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: hands were in the air. He'll probably call back doctor. 323 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: Let's start on the risk rewards. People fear the side 324 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 2: effects and I I don't know if that's reasonable or not. 325 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about that. 326 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, the food shot is really one of the most 327 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 4: the safest vaccines that we have. Most people will feel 328 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 4: soreness in their arm. I don't like it, but it 329 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 4: does only last usually a day, maybe too Some people 330 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 4: get some, you know, other symptoms like a low grade fever, 331 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 4: headache and muffle ache, but really not commonly and and 332 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 4: nothing like what people are used to experiencing from the 333 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 4: those MR and A COVID vaccines that we're also familiar with. 334 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 4: There are these very very rare side effects, so you know, 335 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 4: you can anybody can be a ar to anything, so 336 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 4: you could have an allergic reaction, very rare, and then 337 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 4: one in a million, there's a condition called gionvary syndrome 338 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 4: and neurologic disorder. You said yeah, one in a million. 339 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 4: And so as you said, you know that your risk 340 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 4: of getting a bad complication from the flu is way 341 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 4: higher than that, and your chance of getting the flu 342 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 4: in a season like this is very, very high. So 343 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 4: when you when you put those two things together, that 344 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 4: you are likely to become exposed to the flu this 345 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 4: season and that your risk of getting a severe complication 346 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 4: from the flu is high, the risks certainly are outweighed 347 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 4: by the benefit of YA. 348 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 2: So what are the complications. We need to spell out 349 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 2: the complications of severe flu that can take place that 350 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 2: are severe. I don't think that gets factored in. People 351 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: factor in only the downside of the vaccine. They don't 352 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 2: factor in the downside of getting the disease. So talk 353 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: about those significant downside of getting the flu that may 354 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: affect a person forever. 355 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 4: Exactly. And you know, I think some people also don't 356 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 4: realize that the flu is influenza and that's not your 357 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 4: common cold. And so you know, the common colde that 358 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 4: you get that just is a new sence for a 359 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 4: few days. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking 360 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 4: about the flu, which typically comes on like a ton 361 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 4: of bricks all of a sudden with the severe body aches, 362 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 4: high fever, and cough. Even a regular run of the 363 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 4: mill out of the flu will send you to bed 364 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 4: for a few days and will generally be associated with 365 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 4: a cough that lasts four weeks. Six weeks is typical. 366 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 4: But then there are additional complications. I mean, it's very 367 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 4: common to end up in the hospital, to end up 368 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 4: in the ICU, to end up on a ventilator needing 369 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 4: help breathing, and there are long term complications. So people 370 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 4: are very familiar with long covid flu does the same thing. 371 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 4: We're respiratory problems that linger heart come location is extreme fatigue, 372 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 4: dysfunction of almost any organ, and so we see this 373 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 4: all the time in my field. And that's why you 374 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 4: know you won't find an affectious disease doctor that hasn't 375 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 4: gotten their annual flu shop. 376 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 2: All right, let's talk to Jeff again. We'll see how 377 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 2: it goes. Jeff and Abington. 378 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 3: Hey, how come you hung up on me? 379 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 2: It did not hang up on you. I might not 380 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 2: sure where he's going with that. Can you continue, please? Doctor? 381 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 382 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 4: So, you know, I think that there is a lot 383 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 4: of confusion out there regarding vaccines. We just heard that 384 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 4: the CDC is changing its vaccine recommendations and that that 385 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 4: they're not going to be recommending annual flu vaccination. And 386 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 4: that's unfortunate, right we we we are now well aware 387 00:23:55,280 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 4: that the CDC has been making changes that have deviated 388 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 4: from the process that we've become accustomed to, which involves 389 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 4: an external advisory committee of well vetted experts, an opportunity 390 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 4: for the public to weigh in. That has changed under 391 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 4: the current administration. CDC has been making sweeping recommendations that 392 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 4: change schedules that have been in place for and guidelines 393 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: that have been in place for a long time that 394 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 4: were well supported by scientific evidence. And the result is 395 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 4: that here in a state like Massachusetts, we're lucky the 396 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 4: state Health Department is stepping in and making its own 397 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 4: recommendations for vaccines. Organizations like the American Academy of Pediatrics 398 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 4: are continuing to make their own recommendations, but they're going 399 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 4: to differ from those of the CDC. And so I'm 400 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 4: recommending that people follow state guidelines, American Association of Pediatrics 401 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 4: guidelines rather than CDC. And that's a very uncomfortable thing 402 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 4: to say, but unfortunately it has to be said. 403 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: So what basis of this is the CDC making these 404 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: recommendations that are counterproductive. Is there any scientific basis? Do 405 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: you why? Is my question? You must have some insight 406 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 2: as to why they why? He why they say this? 407 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 4: Yeah? You know, had the usual process been followed, where 408 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 4: an advisory committee meets in a public fashion where I 409 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 4: could watch the meeting and they would go over all 410 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 4: of the research that led to a decision to make 411 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 4: a change, I could tell you what that scientific evidence is. 412 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 4: But this was all done in a very secretive, opaque 413 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 4: manner without the usual evidence base to support the recommendations. 414 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: And what we keep hearing is that the recommendations have 415 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 4: been changed to match a specific country, Denmark vaccine guideline. Well, 416 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,160 Speaker 4: we aren't Denmark. In many ways we differ from Denmark, 417 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 4: and so that doesn't seem like it's compelling reason to know. 418 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 2: But on the other hand, they're a first world country 419 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,199 Speaker 2: and they seem to be doing very well. What is 420 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: Denmark's theory? Why do they recommend the way they do. 421 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 3: Well? 422 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 4: It's interesting because the public health official from Denmark has 423 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 4: come out and made a statement saying that you know, 424 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 4: Denmark's vaccine schedule doesn't actually work for the United States 425 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 4: of America. They have a different demographic, they have a 426 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 4: different level of health, they have a different health system, 427 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 4: they have different epidemiology of diseases. I mean, there are 428 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 4: vaccines that we don't give in the United States that 429 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 4: are given in other countries because we have low levels 430 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 4: of certain diseases compared to other countries. You know, there 431 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 4: are simply different recommendations different parts of the world based 432 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 4: on epidemia. 433 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: Probably Denmark's folk people are in better shape for one thing. 434 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 4: They are they're healthier, they have better healthcare, they have 435 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 4: a more effective healthcare system. Everybody has healthcare, free healthcare, 436 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 4: and they have a single unified health record, so that 437 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 4: wherever you go in a healthcare system, somebody can look 438 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 4: and see have you been vaccinated? Have you been tested 439 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 4: for certain things. It really does change what the recommendations 440 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 4: should be. 441 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: Okay, a personal question, RSV. My doctors initially said, don't 442 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 2: get it. There's some questions about neurological symptoms. Maybe he 443 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 2: was talking about gambar. But then later he said, to 444 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 2: get it. Why the hesitation on his part there, Yeah, 445 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 2: doubt about it till recently or something. 446 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 4: So this is this is actually a perfect example of 447 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 4: how the United States CDC in a typical year is 448 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 4: not is not just trying to be heavy handed and 449 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 4: recommend all vaccines for all people all the time. Here 450 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 4: was a vaccine that was brand new, the RCV vaccine, 451 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: and because it was brand new and because it had 452 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 4: so far been studied only in a relatively small number 453 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 4: of people when it came out, the recommendation was for 454 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 4: shared decision making, meaning have a conversation with your doctor. 455 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 4: There were some side effects like gan beret that were 456 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 4: seen in the study. There were also people who really 457 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 4: seemed to benefit from the vaccine. The older you are, 458 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 4: the more you benefit from the vaccine. And so the 459 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 4: first year that the vaccine came out, it was recommended 460 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 4: as an option, talk to your doctor see if it's 461 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 4: right for you. After a year of experience, the CDC 462 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 4: changed the recommendation. So it reviewed the recommendation changed them. 463 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 4: It said everyone over seventy five should get the RSV vaccine. 464 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 4: If you're between fifty and seventy four, then you should 465 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 4: get the vaccine if you have risk factors for severe RSP. 466 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,720 Speaker 4: So that's just a great example of how todays isn't 467 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 4: just trying to tell everybody to get vaccines all the time. 468 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 4: We use the science, we use the evidence, we use 469 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 4: the epidemiology, and we use the experience from prior years 470 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 4: to adjust the recommendation. 471 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: All right, so the recommendation is now currently get RSV 472 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: if you're over seventy four? Is that correct? Correct? 473 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 4: Over seventy four? 474 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 2: And why is it not until seventy four? Again? 475 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, So the risk for severe disease goes up with age, 476 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 4: so the cutoffs the cutoff is seventy five and up. 477 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 4: But if you're between fifty and seventy four and you 478 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 4: have risk factors for just severe disease, heart disease, lung disease, 479 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 4: neurologic disease, then you should get it. And if you're 480 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 4: pregnant between weeks thirty two and thirty six of pregnancy, 481 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 4: you should also. 482 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: Get Okay, thanks, I wish we had more time. I 483 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: hope you come back and we'll go through more more 484 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 2: diseases and talk more for a full hour. Can we 485 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: can we do that? 486 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 4: We'd love to, all right, sure. 487 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Doctor. Next, we talked to Michael 488 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: Coin to get some his legal angle on the hit 489 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 2: and run the incident on Commonwealth Avenue in Boston. That's 490 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 2: coming up next on WBZ. 491 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio, 492 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: we have a quick. 493 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: Visit from Michael Corndina, the Massachusetts schol of Lot, to 494 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 2: talk about the circumstances of that alleged and run on 495 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: Commonwealth Avenue. Michael, thanks for being with us. I'll ask 496 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: brief questions and due to the lack of time, I 497 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: guess we have to have succinct answers. But what's the 498 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: latest news on this case. 499 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 3: Well, the latest news on the case is that he 500 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 3: has been sent to Bridgewater for evaluation, and in these circumstances, 501 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 3: the evaluation, at least initially is going to focus on 502 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 3: whether he's competent to stand trial. So there's two issues 503 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 3: that will ultimately be outstanding his competency to assist with 504 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 3: his defense and to make knowing and intelligent decisions with 505 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 3: respect to how he wants to defend. The bigger question 506 00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 3: ultimately will be whether he is legally criminally responsible for 507 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: his actions what most people commonly refer to as the 508 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 3: insanity defense, which appears likely is going to be the 509 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 3: ultimate defense in the case. 510 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 2: Okay, I should have outlined this for folks who live 511 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 2: in other areas and may not be aware the case. 512 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 2: We have a big, long, beautiful street in Boston called 513 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 2: Commonwealth Avenue. A man and his dog was struck by 514 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: a vehicle and a person was arrested for it, and 515 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 2: his attorney well as I understand that his attorney says 516 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 2: that he is not well and is not mentally well 517 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: and hopes that they may change the charges once the 518 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 2: evaluation has made one are the charges. 519 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 3: Currently the charges will be first degree murder, and that's 520 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 3: what he is facing because Comonwealth believes that there was premeditation. 521 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 3: He was asking someone immediately before this had he seen 522 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 3: the man in the red coat walking a dog, and 523 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 3: that he appeared to turn the vehicle deliberately towards the 524 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 3: mister Axelrod and his dog and in the process then 525 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 3: ran over them and killed them both. 526 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: Yes, by the way, murder one and cruelty to animals? 527 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: Do you happen to know the penalty of cruelty? 528 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. I should have. I should not have minimized 529 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 3: the additional charge. I do not. I think I thought 530 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 3: it's somewhere between three and five years, but I did 531 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 3: not check it out because if in fact he's convicted 532 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 3: of the first degree murder charge that carries with a 533 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 3: life in prison without the benefit of the role. So 534 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 3: the additional charge for the loss of the dog won't 535 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: truly be meaningful if in fact he's convicted a first 536 00:32:59,040 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 3: degree murder. 537 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: All right, I heard that perhaps he It has been 538 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 2: floated that perhaps he was mistaken it was in case 539 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: of mistaken identity, and perhaps intended to run over someone else. 540 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: But so I ask you, does that make a difference legally? No, No, 541 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 2: that's still he intended. If you intended to kill someone 542 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 2: and you killed the wrong person, are you still on 543 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: the hook for malice of forethought and murder? One? 544 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly rightly, You're still intended to kill someone. The 545 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: fact that you were mistaken as to who you wanted 546 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 3: to kill is a is not a defense to an 547 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 3: intentional murder, and it undercuts the insanity defense argument. If 548 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 3: in fact you truly intended, the fact that you were 549 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 3: mistaken as to identity, uh as to the person doesn't 550 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 3: help you escape liability for the murder. What it means 551 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: is that you understood what you were doing and likely 552 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 3: understood that it was wrong, but he chose to kill 553 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 3: whoever the person is that you believed he was. 554 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 2: My resource says that he acted I should perhaps abnormally 555 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 2: or disconnected or in a way in during his his arraignment. 556 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 2: I guess yep, okay, in a way that might lead 557 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 2: persons to believe that he was mentally ill. 558 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 3: Is it? 559 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: Well, how easy is it for a psychologist to tell 560 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 2: if a person's faking. 561 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 3: No, They generally trained professionals will be able to do that. 562 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 3: But just so everyone's clear, it's not enough to say 563 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 3: that he had a mental illness or that he suffered 564 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 3: from some type of mental disease and the like. It's 565 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 3: that because that happens, and people have all sorts of 566 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 3: mental problems, but that doesn't mean they're not criminally responsible 567 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 3: for their acts. What you would have to show is 568 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 3: that he did, in fact suffer from a mental disease 569 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 3: or defect such that he could not understand that his 570 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,479 Speaker 3: actions were wrong or conform his actions to the law. 571 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 3: It's it's actually a very high standard. It is rarely 572 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 3: accepted by the juries because it is such a heavy 573 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 3: burden for the jury to accept that despite what their 574 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 3: problems and the mental diseases were, that at the end 575 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 3: of the day, they didn't understand that there was something 576 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 3: grossly wrong with killing another person. 577 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,800 Speaker 2: So you could be intensely psychotic for a long time 578 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 2: and still be on the hook for murder one because 579 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 2: you even though you may have still be able to 580 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 2: understand what you were doing at the time, you may 581 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,720 Speaker 2: not be delusional all the time when you have a psychosis, 582 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,840 Speaker 2: and so you have to prove that this person was 583 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 2: unable to understand their actions at the time of the actions. 584 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 2: Not just a history of mental illness does not get 585 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: you off the hook. 586 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 3: No, and even a present mental illness, even a present 587 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 3: existing mental illness, it's been alleged that you had a 588 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 3: change of medication, he was on medication for in fact 589 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 3: under treatment for mental illness. That in and of itself 590 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 3: is not going to excuse the murder of another person. 591 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 3: You're going to have to show that he could not 592 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 3: and did not appreciate that his actions were in fact wrong. 593 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 3: So it's a too pronged part of it that makes 594 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 3: it very hard for a defendant to successfully argue that 595 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 3: their mental illness excuses their liability for the murder of 596 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 3: another person. 597 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 2: Okay, one final question. I really appreciate the answer to 598 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 2: these nuanced questions. Sure does it matter if he never 599 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: had met or known the. 600 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 3: Victim now now, because he could still form the intent. 601 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 3: And it appears, at least from some of the evidence 602 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 3: that we've already heard, that he went looking for this person, 603 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 3: described him to a passerby, and that person directed him 604 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 3: to where they had last seen the individual with the dog. 605 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 3: So no, you don't have to know the person to 606 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 3: intend to cause their death, and that would be the 607 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 3: argument here. Even if, as you pointed out, he believed 608 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 3: he was someone else, it's still there is still evidence 609 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 3: that he intended to do harm to the person who 610 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 3: was in the red coat walking the dog, and in 611 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,040 Speaker 3: fact carried out that direct It's horrific. 612 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 2: Do you have any any other observations before we said no, 613 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:43,880 Speaker 2: it is horrific. 614 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 3: You've got a fine citizen of the Commonwealth who's done 615 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 3: a lot of good and likely has met his end 616 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 3: despite because of no fault of his own, just wrong place, 617 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 3: wrong time, and even as you pointed out, beautiful part 618 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 3: of the city, to have such a horrific action take 619 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 3: place there, it is shocking. 620 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: I appreciate the time, at this late hour and on 621 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: such short notice. Thank you. 622 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 3: Very much, Mike anytime. 623 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 2: Bradley, Okay, that's Michael Coin. He's my man, he's my 624 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: legal man. There were calls that we didn't get to 625 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,720 Speaker 2: because we switched the topic, and we can address the vaccinations, 626 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 2: your reasons for not getting vaccinated, and actually the fact 627 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:36,000 Speaker 2: that they're basing their decisions federally on the Denmarks practices. 628 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: That's pretty interesting to me because I like a lot 629 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,240 Speaker 2: of Denmark's practices, So I'm super interested in what you think. 630 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 2: That's later in the evening hang around, and also if 631 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 2: you want to talk about the incident on Commonwealth Avenue, 632 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 2: and again it's a terrible thing for both the human 633 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 2: victim and the dog. That's so sad. It's w b 634 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 2: Z