Speaker 1: Do you want to be an American flowing out seven
Speaker 1: hundred w LW. Could this idea help tackle the housing crisis?
Speaker 1: You know, in a housing pinch, housing crunch, and the
Speaker 1: idea is to stack housing on top of firehouses and
Speaker 1: police stations. Council Member Mark Jefferies is here to discuss
Speaker 1: on seven hundred WLW.
Speaker 2: Mark, Good morning morning.
Speaker 1: When I first heard this, I chuckle. It seems I
Speaker 1: don't know why. It just seems silly, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, it's it's an interesting you got to think
Speaker 2: out of the box given the crisis that we have
Speaker 2: in housing. Look, this is happening throughout the country on
Speaker 2: any you think about all the types of buildings that
Speaker 2: any city built, Yes, firehouses, police stations, but wrec centers,
Speaker 2: health centers, and we build the base, you know, the
Speaker 2: first floor typically, and there's an opportunity to build a
Speaker 2: couple of floors on top of that. And in a
Speaker 2: lot of other cities that enables a lot more senior
Speaker 2: affordable housing because the economics work. The city's already spending
Speaker 2: money to build a foundation, so then a developer just
Speaker 2: comes in and builds the housing on top. So I
Speaker 2: think it's an opportunity. It's not going to solve our
Speaker 2: housing crisis, but it's one way to add more units
Speaker 2: for people who may want to live in a rangement
Speaker 2: like that. Not for everyone, but some folks may very
Speaker 2: well want to live in earth rec center.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a rec center. I mean you just mentioned police
Speaker 1: and fire stations. I guess maybe the fire station or
Speaker 1: police station, but particularly the fire station. One to me
Speaker 1: is I mean, are you going to be people with
Speaker 1: with that are hard of hearing or hearing issues seniors,
Speaker 1: because it's it's I don't know about if I ever
Speaker 1: a firehouse, I've been around, it's pretty loud.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. I chuckle at that as well. But
Speaker 2: if you think about I mean, I live in Clifton
Speaker 2: on Love Low. People live literally right next to the
Speaker 2: fire station. Over in Westwood, the firehouses people live across
Speaker 2: or next to it. Most fire trucks these days, when
Speaker 2: they leave, they don't put their sirens on right away anyway.
Speaker 2: And so you know, I mean, yes, as I said,
Speaker 2: it may not be for everyone, but I think it's
Speaker 2: an opportunity to add more housing units. And here's the thing, Scott.
Speaker 2: You know, we added about five thousand people in terms
Speaker 2: of population, and we're only adding about one thousand units
Speaker 2: net of new housing a year. And what that means
Speaker 2: pure supply demand is that as a result, prices are
Speaker 2: going up, and so we need more housing. And this
Speaker 2: is a creative solution that we'll add more housing.
Speaker 1: It's true, not just in Cincinnati but everywhere. The price
Speaker 1: of housing, as we know, is going up exorbitantly these days.
Speaker 1: I had a started earlier this morning at nine oh
Speaker 1: six on the podcast, and the average price Mark Jeffreys
Speaker 1: of a new car as just the average price now
Speaker 1: has just passed the fifty thousand dollars mark. Let that's
Speaker 1: sank in for a second. I mean that's car, but
Speaker 1: housings right up there too.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, Scott, the you know, the average
Speaker 2: average age of a new home buyer is forty now.
Speaker 2: Several years ago it was thirty something. In the sixties
Speaker 2: it was twenty. I mean forty, and you take out
Speaker 2: a thirty year mortgage here in your seventies, yep, before
Speaker 2: you're even paying off the pain off the mortgage, and
Speaker 2: the I mean, the American dream is just unattainable, Tony.
Speaker 3: If you're younger, you feel like the screws.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm someone behind the baby boomer generation and
Speaker 1: I feel like, wow, I'm getting squeezed. I can only imagine,
Speaker 1: you know, you're a gen Z of millennials, but particularly
Speaker 1: Gen z rs right now. But is this enough housing
Speaker 1: units to make a dent in at Mark? I mean,
Speaker 1: what are we actually talking about her?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as I preface, it's not gonna solve It's
Speaker 2: going to take a lot of these things we legalize,
Speaker 2: except for dwelling units. You remember that. I me's somebody
Speaker 2: the other day who added it. They moved their parents
Speaker 2: in their backyard and they absolutely love it. You know,
Speaker 2: So you get incremental units. It's not gonna there's no
Speaker 2: silver bullets that's going to solve all of the housing needs.
Speaker 2: But look, if we can add a couple hundred units
Speaker 2: as a result of this, when you when you think
Speaker 2: about it, it's got you know, we sold the railroad.
Speaker 2: We're you know, in principle, we've got twice as much
Speaker 2: investment going into UH into city projects, including we're going
Speaker 2: to build three new firehouses yep. And so over the
Speaker 2: next couple of years we're going to be adding more
Speaker 2: of the structure and and what I've asked the administration
Speaker 2: to do is just look where does it make sense.
Speaker 2: It may not make sense everywhere, but as they look
Speaker 2: at their massive plan of where we're going to build
Speaker 2: new units. I'll give an example in Oakley, we built
Speaker 2: a new rec center there that would have been perfect.
Speaker 2: You know, I know, I do know some people that said, well,
Speaker 2: they would love to live on top of a rec
Speaker 2: center and have a workout, they can go out and
Speaker 2: you know, leave their kids at the daycare. You know,
Speaker 2: again except for everyone.
Speaker 1: But yeah, no, no, that seems like I mean that that
Speaker 1: does seem like a good idea as long as you know,
Speaker 1: I'm curious how many people are going to wind up
Speaker 1: running these places. But how do you ensure that housing's
Speaker 1: built on top of these new structures, Mark Jefferies is
Speaker 1: generally affordable and not just a little less expensive than
Speaker 1: luxury market rates.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the reality is, I think the economics
Speaker 2: will be in principle much better because if you think
Speaker 2: about let's say a rec center, the city is paying
Speaker 2: to build the foundation, of paying to build the first floor,
Speaker 2: and so that is stun costs for whatever developers and
Speaker 2: developers paying for floors two three, four, five, or whatever
Speaker 2: the case may be. And so in principle, what we've
Speaker 2: seen around the country as a result is those units
Speaker 2: are a lot more affordable, especially for seniors. I mean,
Speaker 2: look to our earlier conversation, and these folks who are
Speaker 2: in their sixties seventies and maybe have fixed income, and
Speaker 2: prices are going up, rents are going up. They need
Speaker 2: predictable places to live where they know exactly how much
Speaker 2: the rent is going to be. And they can't, you know,
Speaker 2: they don't have ciple income for a lot of folks
Speaker 2: who are you know, in their seventies plus.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I guess what happens is so the city
Speaker 1: would buy property. Let's say they're can develop a rec
Speaker 1: center like an Oakley if you could go in the
Speaker 1: way back machine and do it there. All right, So
Speaker 1: you own, you buy the land very expensive, You build
Speaker 1: the structure as long as you're digging and developing. You
Speaker 1: put down bigger footer so it can support a building
Speaker 1: above a building. And now the developer goes, okay, good,
Speaker 1: we're going to seal or rent these buildings out. Why
Speaker 1: wouldn't they just try to get market rate, which is
Speaker 1: going to be higher than a lot of people can afford.
Speaker 1: Does that undermine the affordability issue?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that comes back to who
Speaker 2: we partner with and what developer, and what the agreement
Speaker 2: is with the developer. And that's where in the early
Speaker 2: stages of this right, I've just asked the administration to
Speaker 2: go out and identify where the buildings and then have
Speaker 2: conversations with different developers, especially ones who build affordabllowses, and
Speaker 2: I think that would be part of the agreement, is
Speaker 2: that they're building it income restricted housing on these units.
Speaker 1: Okay, he's got some member Mark Jeffries with a novel
Speaker 1: approach here to help put a dent into the city's
Speaker 1: housing crisis, and it's a crisis that's repeated in every
Speaker 1: town across America, and saying, hey, you know, if the
Speaker 1: city's going to start building new fire stations, police stations,
Speaker 1: rec centers, things like that with the money from the
Speaker 1: railway fund, well, then shouldn't we think about maybe putting
Speaker 1: housing atop some of these buildings. I don't know how
Speaker 1: many people want to live above a fire station or
Speaker 1: police station, but rec centers and other buildings like that.
Speaker 1: Possibly does this help put a small dent, But any
Speaker 1: little bite of the apple, of course, is better than nothing.
Speaker 1: I would say in that regard, though, how many other
Speaker 1: cities are doing this and to what success?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I just saw an example yesterday of
Speaker 2: a smaller city in Oregon, just outside like Portland or whatever,
Speaker 2: and they build housing on top of the libraries in
Speaker 2: town senior affordable, I think, below sixty percent average income.
Speaker 2: There are several cities throughout the country that have done this,
Speaker 2: and so it's not a completely unique approach. It's been
Speaker 2: done before. It just hasn't been done here. And you know,
Speaker 2: it'll drive some incremental units and definitely worth running the ground. Look,
Speaker 2: I mean, it may not resolve everything, but it adds
Speaker 2: a little bit. Then I think we're.
Speaker 1: Much I don't think it's a I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a game changer. Like, for example, the ordinance allows people
Speaker 1: to take their freestanding garages and an accessory dwelling unit
Speaker 1: and turn that into livable housing. That to me seems
Speaker 1: a very novel approach. It's good for the homeowner, it's
Speaker 1: good for tenants. It gets more doors out there that
Speaker 1: we desperately need. But this is you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: I guess it's a practical solution here. You're already going
Speaker 1: to build these things, why not put some extra housing
Speaker 1: above it and try to take some of that load off.
Speaker 1: I mean, no, it makes sense. We're not just building
Speaker 1: things to build them for housing. We're actually constructing things
Speaker 1: that the community needs and then leveraging that because you're
Speaker 1: already on the property in the building. I mean no,
Speaker 1: it makes makes a lot of sense in a lot
Speaker 1: of regards. Long we start small and see how it goes.
Speaker 1: How many properties stop your head, mark, Jefferies, do you
Speaker 1: see or how many developments out there that are pending
Speaker 1: or on the horizon with this money? Now, do you
Speaker 1: see where this would fit in any specific examples of
Speaker 1: where might I do this? I mean, I do know.
Speaker 2: We have at least three firehouses that we're going to
Speaker 2: build in the next few years. I think it will
Speaker 2: probably renovate a couple of health centers. Let me think
Speaker 2: that the city has health centers as well. I mean,
Speaker 2: we're building the over Rye over the Ryane Rec Center now,
Speaker 2: so that's kind of that ship has saaled, you know,
Speaker 2: But you're probably talking about you know, over the next
Speaker 2: ten years, maybe a dozen or so at most, where
Speaker 2: this could apply, but you know, a dozen with maybe
Speaker 2: fifty or fewer units on top, you know that's you
Speaker 2: know that that's yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you know you're spending the money already.
Speaker 1: The bulk of money, as I said, is in the
Speaker 1: structure buying the land and everything is like a little
Speaker 1: gravy on top. And if you can maybe even make
Speaker 1: some money off that too and put it back into
Speaker 1: the fund, that's probably even better for taxpayer.
Speaker 3: So it works out there.
Speaker 1: Any of these areas you mentioned, and I know it's
Speaker 1: like Frisco is doing it, you said Portland.
Speaker 3: Are there any problems they've run into with this?
Speaker 2: No? I mean, I think it really depends on having
Speaker 2: a strong partner in a developer, and we have a
Speaker 2: lot of local developers who produce especially affordable units, and
Speaker 2: I think it's just making sure that you've got the
Speaker 2: right partner who has a track record of, you know,
Speaker 2: really caring about the types of units that they're developing,
Speaker 2: and we've got a lot of those, so I think
Speaker 2: that's that's really the key. And yeah, are.
Speaker 3: There any liability issues there?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, police stations can be dangerous places,
Speaker 1: firehouses are noisy, and you've got big equipment coming in.
Speaker 3: There any any risk liability concern No, I mean I.
Speaker 2: Think a lot of the places that do it, they've
Speaker 2: got separate entrances. Obviously you're not going to be walking
Speaker 2: through a firehouse or a police Sah.
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I don't get to slide down the pole.
Speaker 2: What the hell exactly?
Speaker 3: Late for work?
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of people might feel a little
Speaker 2: bit safer being on top of and as I said, look,
Speaker 2: I mean see the noise issue. There are a lot
Speaker 2: of places in the city where people live right next
Speaker 2: to a firehouse that's sure station and uh, you know,
Speaker 2: they they manage, and so I think a lot of
Speaker 2: folks might feel particularly safe, you know, on top of
Speaker 2: it or right next to the right.
Speaker 1: And you also wanted to build this ordinance to to
Speaker 1: you know, to future profits so someone doesn't come in
Speaker 1: and overturn it. But you know, you're talking such a
Speaker 1: small number of units, I can't imagine it being a problem.
Speaker 1: What about the element though the contentious Southern Way Railway
Speaker 1: Trust Fund, and of course that whole thing was was
Speaker 1: was something can intentions to about what you're going to
Speaker 1: do with the money. And for those who said, wow,
Speaker 1: here we go, we're going to get off in the weeds.
Speaker 1: Now we're going to take this money. It was destined
Speaker 1: for infrastructure, our crappy roads and intersections, lights, public safety,
Speaker 1: maybe some buildings, and now we're going to start building
Speaker 1: housing out of it that has nothing to do with infrastructure.
Speaker 1: That's a separate deal entirely. It feels like a legal
Speaker 1: challenge may come out of this.
Speaker 2: Well, what I would say is none of that. First
Speaker 2: of all, we are legally prohibited from using that money
Speaker 2: for anything other than current infrastructure. And so if we're
Speaker 2: building new infrastructure, that money legally cannot be used. And
Speaker 2: so it is purely for current infrastructure, So it's not
Speaker 2: gonna be used to build housing on top of anything.
Speaker 2: So that money would be a partnership with a developer.
Speaker 2: The city is building the structure or renovating the structure,
Speaker 2: and then on top the developer would cover that. And
Speaker 2: it's your point that can be covered in the legal parameters.
Speaker 2: I think the guardrails on the REIL funds are pretty clear.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, So the rail money would be to build a
Speaker 1: rec center, police station, fire station. If you decide to
Speaker 1: do this element of adding on and building up, that's
Speaker 1: a whole separate fund in different money that's going to
Speaker 1: come in to do that, and it's going to be
Speaker 1: in conjunction.
Speaker 2: Then it's not city money. That would not be city money.
Speaker 2: The city would not be spending a dime on that.
Speaker 3: The developer would.
Speaker 2: Yeah, gotcha, a private developer coming in and building housing
Speaker 2: on top. Got it.
Speaker 1: But again we'll see it's interesting. I don't know how
Speaker 1: the developer doesn't go, Okay, fine, well we're already doing this.
Speaker 1: We'll charge market rates. You're gonna have to put some
Speaker 1: guardrails in there to make sure if you want to
Speaker 1: do affordable housing or market rate housing, you then have
Speaker 1: to instruct them saying, hey, look, you know, we'll do
Speaker 1: this deal, but are you going.
Speaker 3: To put caps in for how much they can charge?
Speaker 1: But that kind of upends the free market because typically
Speaker 1: someone can afford it if it's a nicer place and go, yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to live above a rec center, tender track.
Speaker 1: Maybe more young urban professionals who are going to pay
Speaker 1: top dollar for that. But that then frees up inventory
Speaker 1: down the line a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think for you know, like we
Speaker 2: have a lot of developers, like the model groups that
Speaker 2: does development in and around of the line that does
Speaker 2: a lot of affordable units. You know, developers like that
Speaker 2: who can come in and say yes, they intend to
Speaker 2: make the units income restricted. And I think, you know
Speaker 2: that's what we would have to ensure as we write
Speaker 2: the contract and partner with them.
Speaker 1: He's a council member, Mark Jeffers and the Scotslan show
Speaker 1: on seven hundred WLW. And the proposal here to take
Speaker 1: the development from the Cincinnat Southern Railway Trust funds, So
Speaker 1: it's going to be police stations and rec centers and
Speaker 1: firehouses and things, Paul libraries, things like that, and in
Speaker 1: a separate account to housing over the top of some
Speaker 1: of these buildings to alleviate the housing crisis in Cincinnati.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's a creative idea. It's a creative
Speaker 1: solution here. It'll put a small den in things. But again,
Speaker 1: any step forward in the right direction, I think is
Speaker 1: it's a pretty good idea.
Speaker 2: Mark, Yeah, no, I've scotten. The thing that I want
Speaker 2: to emphasize you're books listening is the prior point. None
Speaker 2: of this money for housing on top would come from
Speaker 2: public dollars. This would not be railroad dollars or anything.
Speaker 2: Because I think, you know, initially, when one might see that,
Speaker 2: they might conclude that. I think what it is is, hey,
Speaker 2: we're building these structures anyway, let's partner with somebody who
Speaker 2: then because you've already put this on costs and can
Speaker 2: build housing on top.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know I mentioned car is fifty thousand
Speaker 1: dollars the average price of car in America, and the
Speaker 1: housing price of housing and rent is going through the
Speaker 1: literally the roof as well. No pun intended something else
Speaker 1: had happened recently.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: You only have a second for this. But during his stay,
Speaker 1: the same mayor, after a purevol mentioned his pension bailout
Speaker 1: plan two hundred and fifty million dollars was stuck in
Speaker 1: ten years ago to try and fully fund the city
Speaker 1: pension program. And now it's like, hey, we don't have
Speaker 1: enough money in twenty twenty six, and so now we've
Speaker 1: got another fifty million dollars going in the system, which
Speaker 1: is about, you know, taking a sick if can bite
Speaker 1: out of tax revenues.
Speaker 3: At some point you look at that model and go,
Speaker 3: it's antiquated. It's old.
Speaker 1: That employer funded or city funded pension plan plan doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Why don't we just move everyone in a four to
Speaker 1: one K.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a lot bigger discussion. I mean,
Speaker 2: as you know, the Futures Commission had several recommendations on
Speaker 2: solvency on the pension. Uh. The proposal that was outlined
Speaker 2: last week was intended as kind of a compromise with
Speaker 2: the employer or employees actually increased their own contribution and
Speaker 2: then the city in turn is increasing their contribution. So
Speaker 2: it's intended as kind of a balance. But I think
Speaker 2: that's a bigger, longer term conversation is how do we
Speaker 2: make sure that you know, I mean, it's the solvency
Speaker 2: of that fund and the impact on city budgets.
Speaker 1: Well, fixed you know, fixed pension plans are it's a dog.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, it's losing all over the place, teachers
Speaker 1: here in the city of Cincinnati. You can't afford fifty
Speaker 1: million every few years to prop this whole thing up.
Speaker 1: And at some point, you know, four oh one k's
Speaker 1: work wonderfully. I'm in one, and I know people go on,
Speaker 1: there's no guarant there's no guarantees anymore. I mean, pensions
Speaker 1: are you know, an idea that's at least fifty years old.
Speaker 1: They just simply don't work anymore. And I think it's
Speaker 1: unfair to burden people, especially younger tax payers and those
Speaker 1: who are trying to lure to Cincinnati by having to
Speaker 1: pay the freight on this.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, look, I have a four to one
Speaker 2: k myself for my company and my wife through her
Speaker 2: pediatric office as well. So I mean, I hear you.
Speaker 2: I think this is a larger discussion that we need
Speaker 2: to have that came out of the Futures Commission of
Speaker 2: how do we make sure that our fiscal health is
Speaker 2: strong going forward? Yeah, and you know there's a lot
Speaker 2: more that we need to do on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have a separate conversation there, but that definitely
Speaker 1: has to change. He's concol member Mark Jeffries. Thanks for
Speaker 1: jumping on the show again. Mark, have a great day.
Speaker 2: Appreciate it's got tick.
Speaker 3: Tack care all the best.
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