WEBVTT - 4-9-26 Sloan with Rebecca Surendorff

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<v Speaker 1>Don't want to be an American. Thursday Maritis short day.

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<v Speaker 1>We've got reds baseball here on seven hundred wlwas eleven

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<v Speaker 1>o'clock to get inside pitch and try and take three

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<v Speaker 1>or four from the Marlins for getting back home. That's

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<v Speaker 1>the fun part. This is the sickening part for you

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<v Speaker 1>of the news cycle. So this guy in Ohio man

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<v Speaker 1>just became the first person in America to be convicted

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<v Speaker 1>of our new federal AI deep fake porn law. But

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<v Speaker 1>Ohio itself has no law concerning AI child pornography. That's

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<v Speaker 1>not a state crime. So how's that possible in light

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<v Speaker 1>of this case? And by the way, we have not one,

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<v Speaker 1>but two brand new cases involving deep fake AI porn

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<v Speaker 1>for underage people in both Evandelle and Mason. Joining the

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<v Speaker 1>show from Ohioans for Child Protection is Rebecca Scherendorf. Good morning, Rebecca,

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<v Speaker 1>how you.

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<v Speaker 2>Been oh doing good? Thanks for drawing attention to that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I'm not drawing attention to it. I think the

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<v Speaker 1>news cycle is because we've had three big cases this week.

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned we'll get We'll get to the charges against

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<v Speaker 1>this guy from Hilliard, Ohio. James Strellier is his Estraller

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<v Speaker 1>is his name from up in Columbus, and it's pretty

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<v Speaker 1>disturbing when you look at the details of the case him.

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<v Speaker 1>But we have a seven year old Mason who's in

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<v Speaker 1>a Warren County Juvenile court fifty plus family charges for

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<v Speaker 1>pandering sexual ordered material involving a minor a two year

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<v Speaker 1>about a year long investigation. I should say it involves

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<v Speaker 1>AI generated explicit images where in this case a girl's

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<v Speaker 1>face was put on a fake body to make her

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<v Speaker 1>look naked and rain Phoenix Brown out of Evandale in

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<v Speaker 1>Hamlin County's twenty four year old three charges of pandering

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<v Speaker 1>involving a minor, pandering sexual oriented material, involving a minor,

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<v Speaker 1>in illegal use of minor, and nudity ordered material. Same

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<v Speaker 1>thing here and I mentioned the big case is James

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<v Speaker 1>darld of the second from Columbus installed twenty four over

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<v Speaker 1>twenty four AI platforms and over one hundred web based

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<v Speaker 1>AI models on his phone and use that to harass

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<v Speaker 1>at least six adult women for a period of about

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<v Speaker 1>a year or two and created porn depicting victim and

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<v Speaker 1>sex acts with her own father and then distributed to

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<v Speaker 1>her co workers. And they found literally hundreds of images

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<v Speaker 1>in another thousand or so a couple thousand on his phone,

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<v Speaker 1>and he is the first person in the US CONVICTI

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<v Speaker 1>or to take it down. Act. I know, that's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot to throw at you this morning, but we have

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<v Speaker 1>two local stories, god knows how many more, and of

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<v Speaker 1>course this case here in Ohio of James Stroller. The

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<v Speaker 1>second forty five states have laws criminalizing AI generator computed

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<v Speaker 1>editor edited. It's called ce SAM is what they what

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<v Speaker 1>it's called. And maybe you can explain that terminology and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of set it up for us here before we

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<v Speaker 1>get to talking about what's really going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there's a few things. First of all, Ohio,

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<v Speaker 2>we do have the child pornography in statute, and the

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<v Speaker 2>nation's been shifting to child sex abuse material. That's the

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<v Speaker 2>sea SAM term, and that's just to recenter the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that a child is abused when there is pornography made

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<v Speaker 2>of a child, and that this is part of the

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<v Speaker 2>abuse and the revictimization. So just as people hear this

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<v Speaker 2>and see it in the news and whatnot, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>quite align with our terminology here in Ohio, but for

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<v Speaker 2>the nations shifting that way because this is not a

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<v Speaker 2>victimalist crime by any stretch of the imagination. And while

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<v Speaker 2>those are three high profile cases happening both in our community,

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<v Speaker 2>within our state and whatnot, I think this is just

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<v Speaker 2>a drop in the bucket. Basically, studies are indicating the

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<v Speaker 2>child online exploitations is currently sitting in about one in

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<v Speaker 2>six kids are being exploited online. That can take many forms,

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<v Speaker 2>such as being sex storted into producing sexual images of themselves.

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<v Speaker 2>They can be getting paid to produce material, which sadly,

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<v Speaker 2>children that are read are all the higher targets for

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<v Speaker 2>this kind of exploitation, and once there are images of

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<v Speaker 2>them generated, this in turn could lead to escalating behavior

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<v Speaker 2>like I've heard of pathways where a child was first

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<v Speaker 2>just paid to take a picture of their feet and

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<v Speaker 2>share it, which would seem very harmless to a child

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<v Speaker 2>to share a picture of their feet right, and before

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<v Speaker 2>you know it is escalated into having to conduct violent

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<v Speaker 2>set backs against the peer and record it and share

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<v Speaker 2>it with the offender. And this is another layer in

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<v Speaker 2>it is that the online exploitation can then spread into

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<v Speaker 2>the minor exploiting their peers and those around them getting

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<v Speaker 2>exploited as well. And although high ones for child protection.

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<v Speaker 2>We're concerned that our Statehouse is not keeping pace. We

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<v Speaker 2>have lawmakers like Senator Blessing and Senator Johnson, which has

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<v Speaker 2>introduced SB one sixty three to address a C stamps

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<v Speaker 2>in our state. But there's probably another dozen plus bills

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<v Speaker 2>that need to be passed in Columbus right now, and

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<v Speaker 2>then we need a broad look at our policies and

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<v Speaker 2>ask ourselves is this really keeping case? Because the CDC

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<v Speaker 2>is estimating that about one in four girls are being

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<v Speaker 2>sexually abused by Aug. Eighteen, and the boys fall somewhere

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<v Speaker 2>between the one in six to one in ten mark

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<v Speaker 2>most likely closer to one in six if you consider

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<v Speaker 2>the harm from online exploitation, which can be very real.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean we see these committee suicide.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think we had a case in I want

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<v Speaker 1>to say in Lawrenceburg, maybe not too long ago. Same

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<v Speaker 1>thing happened there. There was an exploitation thing. And the

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<v Speaker 1>sick part about it is you look at this James Stralo,

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<v Speaker 1>the second first guy convicted thirty seven years old. The

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<v Speaker 1>charges by the way, cyberstalking, producing Obstein, visual representations of

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<v Speaker 1>child sexual abuse, and publication of digital forgeries. He had

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<v Speaker 1>all these AI platforms installed on his phone and created

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<v Speaker 1>porn depicting a victim and sex act with her own father,

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<v Speaker 1>and then sent it to her co workers. And of

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<v Speaker 1>course it was just you know, her face, but it

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<v Speaker 1>was AI generated on top of a naked body. Image

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<v Speaker 1>of a naked body. And he posted AI generated images

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<v Speaker 1>of children using faces of boys from his community. And

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<v Speaker 1>they found seven over seven hundred images on a child

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<v Speaker 1>sexually bust website, another twenty four hundred roughly on his phone.

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<v Speaker 1>So this is the first person US convicted under the

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<v Speaker 1>Take It Down Act. So talk about the dispairity, walk

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<v Speaker 1>the listeners through with the gap in Ohio versus the

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<v Speaker 1>federal law right now.

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<v Speaker 2>So right now, SB one sixty three does a few

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<v Speaker 2>things that we don't have in federal law. First of all,

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<v Speaker 2>one of the sections requires a watermark on AI generated

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<v Speaker 2>material that indicates that it is AI generated. I think

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<v Speaker 2>this could be useful because if the technology companies have

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<v Speaker 2>to provide the water mark and it's there, at least

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<v Speaker 2>if you have an afarious factor using the tool incorrectly

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<v Speaker 2>and illegally, there is that chance at least that the

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<v Speaker 2>watermark is still going to stay on it as long

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<v Speaker 2>as they don't remove it, which is a separate crime

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<v Speaker 2>than removing of the water mark. And so this will

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<v Speaker 2>actually be protecting people on multiple levels because if you

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<v Speaker 2>think of the Columbus area case, I mean we have

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<v Speaker 2>adult women, adult men because that father is just as

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<v Speaker 2>much a victim in this, and we also even have

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<v Speaker 2>young boys that were targeted by this man. So we

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<v Speaker 2>have a wide range of people that are being targeted

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<v Speaker 2>with this AI pornography and also the deep fakes, because

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<v Speaker 2>there are other things beyond sexual exploitation that could still

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<v Speaker 2>be very problematic to be detecting people doing and can

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<v Speaker 2>result in loss of jobs. There have been cases where

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<v Speaker 2>AI has been used to have someone say some really

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<v Speaker 2>offensive things in which their job was on the line.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe it was a school principle that was targeted

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<v Speaker 2>in a case that was highlighted by Attorney General Gates

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<v Speaker 2>in his committee testimony on SBS one sixty three, and

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<v Speaker 2>then also our bill, the bill that Center of Blessing

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<v Speaker 2>Johnson brought. It is a civil course of action to victims,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it is so very important that first

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<v Speaker 2>of all, victims should have access to civil court. They're

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<v Speaker 2>there for a reason. It is a valid part of

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<v Speaker 2>our justice system, but also it creates an incentive for

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<v Speaker 2>the tech companies and for the individuals not to engage

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<v Speaker 2>in that that they too can face three percussions.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I wonder, I wonder how. I wonder how Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder how hard it is for them to stop creating?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, it's I would no one listening right now

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<v Speaker 1>other than maybe one person possibly understand how AI works, right,

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<v Speaker 1>and how you're able to simply turn that that that

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<v Speaker 1>element off. By the way, So Rebecca Scherndorf, she's on

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<v Speaker 1>the show with a Highlands for child protection. She was

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<v Speaker 1>critical during the clergy abuse cases, and now we're talking

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<v Speaker 1>about something called Sea SAM. It's called child sexual abuse material.

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<v Speaker 1>You heard the name James strall of the second of Columbus,

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<v Speaker 1>just a horrific criminal here involving AI generated images used

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<v Speaker 1>on women and some children. And now two cases one

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<v Speaker 1>in Mason one and Evendale. Uh, where you have younger

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<v Speaker 1>people that are using AI to generate naked images of

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<v Speaker 1>people or they take their face and their likeness and

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<v Speaker 1>put it on essentially an AI generated nude body and

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<v Speaker 1>then disseminating it to other students. In the case of Straller,

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<v Speaker 1>he was doing it with women that that he knew

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<v Speaker 1>and was doing in the workplace. Different story, But on

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<v Speaker 1>those two things, amazing case I said involves this, believe

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<v Speaker 1>seventeen year old, I said, facing fifty plus collomny charges.

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<v Speaker 1>The court didn't mention AI specifically there, and that's an

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<v Speaker 1>element of it. And the stroller case is children and women.

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<v Speaker 1>So when you look at it, is AI generated se SAM,

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<v Speaker 1>which by the way, is child sexual abuse material that

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<v Speaker 1>term a lot se SAM. It's crossing all demographic lines

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<v Speaker 1>right now. And does the law dictate that it's specifically

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<v Speaker 1>about children or its include adults for everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>This actually is offering protection to everyone, and it goes

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<v Speaker 2>a step further to also protect you from someone feeling

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<v Speaker 2>your identity using.

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<v Speaker 1>AI gotcha, which which is.

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<v Speaker 2>The impact seniors and financial crimes. So I think the

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<v Speaker 2>senators try to make a well rounded bill here and

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<v Speaker 2>it should sit in state law as well. We shouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>leave room for criminals to be able to exploit people

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<v Speaker 2>in our state because we don't have as robusts of

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<v Speaker 2>laws as the other forty five states in the country.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is an interesting angle from me. I guess

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<v Speaker 1>the First Amendment standpoint because this is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>things like this are going to be challenged, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>the way the law works. You know, you don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to agree with going, well, we should be protecting children

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<v Speaker 1>and innocent people from this nonsense. However, the Constitution talks

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<v Speaker 1>about First Amendment. What dictates in the first Amendment. So

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<v Speaker 1>I'm looking at case right now out of Sturgis and

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<v Speaker 1>this guy, I think Sturgis, Wisconsin. I want to say

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<v Speaker 1>that the age there is upholding a federal or a

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<v Speaker 1>statute to state statute that band's possession of child sex

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<v Speaker 1>dolls and computer generated sexual material and includes identifiable features,

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<v Speaker 1>and so the sex doll that looks like a child,

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of disturbing. They want to continue to enforce that.

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<v Speaker 1>There are critics out there that argue purely AI generated images,

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<v Speaker 1>ones that don't use a real child's face, unlike the

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<v Speaker 1>ones we're talking about here, are victimless and protected expression.

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<v Speaker 1>What's your response to that argument, we're talking about AI

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<v Speaker 1>generate image is not of real people in their face,

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<v Speaker 1>but rather just AI generated bodies, naked bodies and in

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<v Speaker 1>this case of children. What do you make of that?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think if we look at this in the

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<v Speaker 2>larger contexts that rain estimates that sexual violent crimes, the

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<v Speaker 2>actual individuals only have about a two percent conviction ery,

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<v Speaker 2>and part of the problem is the delayed disclosure which

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<v Speaker 2>Ohio has an old statute limitations while in the book

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<v Speaker 2>that isn't updated to reflect the rest of the country

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<v Speaker 2>on this. But take that load conviction ery and then

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<v Speaker 2>look at what other states have done. They have found

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<v Speaker 2>that individuals that buy these child sextuals are actually most

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<v Speaker 2>likely offenders. And it's a much easier case to make

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<v Speaker 2>that you have purchased something like this which is clearly

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<v Speaker 2>for use for sexualizing a child and also can be

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<v Speaker 2>used in a grooming process if you think about it,

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<v Speaker 2>but it is most certainly not a normal purchest and

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<v Speaker 2>is its own red flag behavior, And so some states

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<v Speaker 2>have gone the route of criminalizing those kinds of devices,

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<v Speaker 2>such as child sex fells, in order to identify more

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<v Speaker 2>child exploiters. As a free speech we have a long

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<v Speaker 2>history of regulating things that you say and material that

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<v Speaker 2>you can produce when it causes harm to others. And

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<v Speaker 2>when you have tens of millions of images that do

0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:40.800
<v Speaker 2>not depict an actual person but is still sexualizing children,

0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:45.839
<v Speaker 2>you are moving a certain group of people along a

0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 2>tangent of exploitative thoughts about minors, and they may start

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.480
<v Speaker 2>acting on them. An example of this, as there has

0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:01.080
<v Speaker 2>been an uptick in strangulation content in regular pornograph, there

0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:08.160
<v Speaker 2>has been a corresponding uptick of strangulation on our college campuses. Now,

0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:13.719
<v Speaker 2>strangulation is a felony, and you can survive a strangulation

0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.920
<v Speaker 2>and still die later because this is actually cutting off

0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.200
<v Speaker 2>the blood to your brain and you're strangled. This is

0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:24.920
<v Speaker 2>more involved than like holding your breath, right, this is

0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.200
<v Speaker 2>just oxygen that we're talking about, and a person that's

0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.000
<v Speaker 2>been strangled is actually at risk of strokes even six

0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:37.880
<v Speaker 2>months later posts surviving the strangulation. But you have young

0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:42.840
<v Speaker 2>people that see this material and it's been normalized as

0:14:42.880 --> 0:14:48.560
<v Speaker 2>a kink, even though it is deeply harmful and a pelony, right,

0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.920
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's just an example of where you

0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:57.040
<v Speaker 2>see a performance of something that's harmful sexually seeping out

0:14:57.080 --> 0:14:59.280
<v Speaker 2>into the real world and harming real people.

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.040
<v Speaker 1>It's going to be an interesting challenge because, as you

0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:05.560
<v Speaker 1>said that, I don't disagree with you because it's horrific

0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 1>what we're talking about here, Rebecca, But he said you know,

0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:11.080
<v Speaker 1>they watch AI generated images which aren't real things. I mean,

0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.880
<v Speaker 1>it's like it's like a cartoon. Essentially, it looks a

0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:17.040
<v Speaker 1>real life, but it's it's not real in real life,

0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.440
<v Speaker 1>if that makes sense, And they might act on that,

0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.320
<v Speaker 1>see that, and that's a slippery slope, I think from

0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:24.280
<v Speaker 1>a constitutional perspective, and I think you'd agree with me.

0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.120
<v Speaker 1>Is like, Okay, well I have a gun and I

0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.960
<v Speaker 1>might shoot someone and commit a homicide. I may, I

0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.800
<v Speaker 1>may not. That's a slippery slope right there that they

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.520
<v Speaker 1>you know under the law, I guess under don't. I

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.840
<v Speaker 1>know IF's habeous corpus or not. But essentially it's like, okay,

0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.560
<v Speaker 1>in this case, when we're talking about real people, there

0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.640
<v Speaker 1>are real victims there, whereas with AI generated image there

0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:44.640
<v Speaker 1>is no victim.

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, and I think this is going to depend on

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the details. And this is why we import and judges,

0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 2>because our lawmakers put the words on paper, and then

0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.440
<v Speaker 2>our prosecutors have discretions from there, and then we still

0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.960
<v Speaker 2>have our grand jury in place even before charges are brought,

0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.960
<v Speaker 2>and then it goes before a judge and a jury, right,

0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.920
<v Speaker 2>and those processes are in place. Actually, they add a

0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.240
<v Speaker 2>whole other layer to our law. There's what's written in statute,

0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.640
<v Speaker 2>and then there's the case law that occurs after the

0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.000
<v Speaker 2>writing of a statute, and so you can have aspects

0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:24.200
<v Speaker 2>of it that are tossed out when there are valid

0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 2>concerns regarding free speech. But at the same time, it's

0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:30.240
<v Speaker 2>soll legal for you and i's goes, you know, to

0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.280
<v Speaker 2>the stereotypical theater and shoutfire, and we may get into

0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:40.760
<v Speaker 2>a situation where someone claims, well, that wasn't actually this individual,

0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:47.160
<v Speaker 2>but they altered their image just enough, right, sure, because

0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.160
<v Speaker 2>there's also problems with real child sex abuse material then

0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:56.080
<v Speaker 2>being altered by AI to make it look safe in

0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 2>order to claim then that it's okay.

0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think people like the Straller guys should be

0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.240
<v Speaker 1>buried underneath the jail quite honestly, and anyone doing this

0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.199
<v Speaker 1>stuff to exploit people it's criminal. But we do have

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:10.840
<v Speaker 1>to watch the constitution constitutionalia. But I think we're all

0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:12.919
<v Speaker 1>rooting for these people to go to prison or worse.

0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.320
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, I understand the perils of

0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.560
<v Speaker 1>enacting a law that says, hey, anything AI generated is

0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:21.760
<v Speaker 1>is you know, if it's child porn, it's no go.

0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.359
<v Speaker 1>It's It's going to be an interesting conversation that's going

0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 1>to develop, for sure, but I appreciate what you do.

0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.120
<v Speaker 1>Rebecca Scherndorf for ohioshines for child Protection as Ohio now

0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:32.960
<v Speaker 1>tries to get their laws up to speed here to

0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.360
<v Speaker 1>match the federal on we have a man in Columbus,

0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:40.040
<v Speaker 1>first one prosecuted under this new law federally. The DOJ

0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.119
<v Speaker 1>believes first person in the United States convict him to

0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:45.240
<v Speaker 1>the Take It Down Act is James Stroller out of Columbus, Ohio,

0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:47.720
<v Speaker 1>and just absolutely horrific things that he did to women

0:17:48.000 --> 0:17:50.840
<v Speaker 1>and involving AI and deep fake porn. Rebecca, all the best,

0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.520
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for jumping on this morning. Love it all right,

0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:56.480
<v Speaker 1>Yes maam you too. We got to get a news

0:17:56.520 --> 0:17:58.159
<v Speaker 1>update in run a little bit late here on this

0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.800
<v Speaker 1>Thursday morning. We have Reds Baseball coming up and hopefully

0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:03.640
<v Speaker 1>how about three out of four in Miami that would

0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:06.200
<v Speaker 1>be awesome before they head back here against the Angels.

0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:08.640
<v Speaker 1>We'll have it for you today inside Pitch at eleven

0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.120
<v Speaker 1>o'clock on the Home of the Red seven hundred ww