1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: It's nice eyes with Dan Ray. I'm telling you Weezy 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Boston's News Radio. 3 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,080 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Dan Watkins, go Red Sox. Okay, 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 2: they only have one hundred and sixty one games left 5 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 2: to play. Who knows where they will end up. We 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 2: are delighted to be rejoined tonight by a guest who 7 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: is with us a couple of times previously, the president 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 2: of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine. President Levine, welcome back to 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: Night's side. 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 3: Dan, it's really good to be with you again. 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: Well, the thing that is interesting is I just realized 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 2: that you had a predecessor book to the book that 13 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: we spoke about a few weeks ago, and the book 14 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: that we're going to speak about tonight is the current book, 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 2: from Upheaval to Action, What Works in Changing higher Education. 16 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: You co wrote this with Scott Van Pelt, who is 17 00:00:54,760 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 2: a scholar, and I want to give him acknowledgment. He's 18 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 2: a director of research and faculty Affairs at the University 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education. However, both of you, 20 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 2: this is the second book that you have combined on. 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 2: You wrote a different book which was called The Great Upheaval, 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 2: Higher Education's Past Present and uncertain future. So I hope 23 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: I had that correct in sequence. 24 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 4: That's perfect, thank you. 25 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: And that first book came out, was it just around 26 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 2: the time of COVID twenty twenty or twenty twenty. 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 4: One, twenty twenty one. 28 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's since we are going to talk about 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 2: the current book. But what prompted the first book? And 30 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: then the question is going to be what in turn 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: prompted the second book. 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 4: What prompted the first book was it was clear that 33 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 4: the world was changing and the question was and it 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 4: was going to have a large impact on higher education. 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 4: The last time the world changed this much was during 36 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 4: the Industrial Revolution, and that transformed higher education. So decided 37 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 4: to look at the changes that were coming in three ways. 38 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 4: We'd looked backward what happened during the Industrial Revolution, We'd 39 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 4: look at the present, what's happening in terms of demography, population, 40 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 4: what's happening in terms of the new economy, what's happening 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 4: in terms of technology. And then we thought, why not 42 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:38,399 Speaker 4: look sideways. Let's look at other knowledge industries like universities 43 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 4: and higher education that have been forced to change faster 44 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 4: but are facing the same conditions. So we looked at 45 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 4: the film industry. We looked at newspapers, and we looked 46 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 4: at the music. 47 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 5: Industry, and the goal was to see what kind of 48 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 5: view we get out of each of those perspectives, and 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 5: it turned out they were exactly. 50 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: The same, exactly the same as education. Yes, wow, interesting interesting, 51 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 2: so so so again. Talking about the education obviously, is 52 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: people work with their minds, not so much with their hands, 53 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 2: although people can can't eventually use their education and depending 54 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: upon how they're how what they've learned, use their hands. 55 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: Same way with things like, as you said, the movies, 56 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: it's similar and that a lot of it is creative, 57 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 2: a lot of it is intellectual less. So so they 58 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: they there's those are similar industries. Newspapers, movies. You didn't 59 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: do anything on the evolution of television news I assume. 60 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 4: Actually that ended up being part of newspapers. Okay, Well, 61 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 4: we found Look, all these organizations developed their business models 62 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 4: in the twentieth century for the most part, and what 63 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 4: happened was they did really well. They did well against competitors, 64 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 4: take newspapers, they did really well against radio, they did 65 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 4: really well against television, they did well against the government 66 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 4: and regulation, they did well against the courts. But finally 67 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 4: through them, really through them was digital technology. 68 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that's had a tremendous impact, tremendous impact 69 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 2: on the industry that I've been involved in, television and radio, 70 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 2: and I see now the similarities that you're talking about 71 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 2: in terms of education. So I want to move to 72 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: the current book because in the current book there's such 73 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:04,159 Speaker 2: great history and history explained, which we're not going to 74 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: go into. But I want people to understand that this 75 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 2: is not just a book of ideas. It's also a 76 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 2: book that puts in these ideas into perspective. I want 77 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: to get to today because I think a lot of 78 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: people will be interested from your perspective. There was a 79 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 2: period of time fifteen or twenty years ago when the 80 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 2: number of applicants to the major colleges in this country 81 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 2: was going through the roof twenty thousand, thirty thousand, forty 82 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: thousand a year for classes of fifteen hundred people. Acceptance 83 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: rates were two percent two point one percent. The military 84 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 2: academies are still like that. They're amongst the most selective 85 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 2: locations of higher education in the country. Annapolis West Point 86 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: Air Force Academy, et cetera. How Is Brandeis University, which 87 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: is right up there with any other great university. It's 88 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: up there with the Ivy League universities, the great private colleges. 89 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: Has brand Eye suffered any drop off in terms of 90 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 2: competition for students or in qualifications for students? You know, 91 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: either again quantitatively or qualitatively. 92 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 4: We're still competing against the same schools. We're competing against Harvard, 93 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:31,679 Speaker 4: we're competing against Uffs, we're competing against Yale. So still 94 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 4: the same schools. What's changed? I don't understand it. I 95 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 4: can't explain it to you. This year, our applications are 96 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 4: up by forty percent. We had more applications this year 97 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 4: ever had in the history of brandeis. 98 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 2: Which on the surface would say your business is great, 99 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 2: because I don't know if any newspapers whose circulation are 100 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: going up forty percent, or TV stations or radio stations 101 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: who writings, whose writings are going up, we're all adversely 102 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 2: impacted by the Disfusion Act of activities, digital activities, et cetera. 103 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: So why not, And this is I know what your 104 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: answer is likely going to be. Why not sit back 105 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: and rest on you, laurels and say, hey, we now 106 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 2: with a probably relatively dwindling college age population. I think 107 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: the college age population is dwindling a little bit. Don't 108 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:31,680 Speaker 2: know where it's going to be ten years or twenty 109 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 2: years from now, but why not say, hey, if we're 110 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: increasing forty percent, we should be fat, happy and contented. 111 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 4: I think part of it is because of the kind 112 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 4: of changes that I described a little while ago, which 113 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 4: is the country is moving from a national analogue industrial 114 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 4: economy to a global digital knowledge economy. And the effects 115 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 4: of it. Are you talked about decline in the number 116 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 4: of young people in our part of the world, New England, 117 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 4: the Midwest, the Middle Atlantic states there are the ratio 118 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 4: of colleges to young people is three to two. We 119 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 4: have sixty percent of the colleges in this region and 120 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 4: forty and thirty eight percent of the students in this country. 121 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: I mean, in a perfect world it would be the same. 122 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: Maybe sixty sixty's exactly right. 123 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 4: So what we're going to see in the next few 124 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 4: years the closure of a lot of colleges. I think 125 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 4: brandis not lucky. Every college is going to be affected 126 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 4: by those changes. And what brandized is was dramatically change 127 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 4: its curriculum in order to meet the needs of a 128 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 4: new kind of society. And I think that probably boosted 129 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 4: our applications. 130 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to we're going to take a break here. 131 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: We have to make some money to a couple of commercials. 132 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: My guest is the president of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine, 133 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: and I want to talk about in some depth about 134 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: the curriculum that you have changed, that you have overseen 135 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 2: a change in at Brandei's. I also want to talk 136 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 2: about this trend where some institutions are now suggesting and 137 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 2: I think we've talked about this before in a shorter 138 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 2: form three year baccalaureate degrees as opposed to four year 139 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 2: bacalaureate degrees. And I think that those three year baccalaureate 140 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: degrees don't include fitting one hundred and twenty credit hours 141 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: into three years basically, And for the most part, they're 142 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: talking about cutting one hundred twenty credit hours down to 143 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: ninety credit hours, and I'll be interested in what you 144 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: think about that. And I also want to get people 145 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: an opportunity to speak with the president of one of 146 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 2: the nations, one of the world's most prestigious universities, Brandeis University, 147 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 2: about where we're going to go and if you have 148 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 2: young children, if you have children, if you have grandchildren, 149 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 2: I think that you probably have some questions in your 150 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 2: mind as to what it will be like when your 151 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: children are thinking about applying to college. And maybe there 152 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: will be a trend where a fewer people will apply 153 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 2: to college, irrespective of the geographical consideration. So we have 154 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: all of that, we will talk about some of the 155 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: fads that have come and gone within schools. I know 156 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: that in your book you talk about the embarrassment, if 157 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 2: you will, of the college presidents who were called in 158 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 2: front of the members of Congress, but you're a half ago, 159 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 2: and two of them ended up losing their presidencies because 160 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: they talked I guess what you would call academies as 161 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: opposed to speaking language that most people could understand, and 162 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 2: the members of Congress showed them no mercy. We'll take 163 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: a break if you'd like to talk with the president 164 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 2: of Brandeis University about a subject that has been his 165 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 2: life and a subject I think which fascinates all of 166 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: us who think. The book From Upheaval to Action, What 167 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 2: Works in Changing Higher ed by Arthur Levine and Scott 168 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 2: Van Pelt six one seven two ten thirty six one 169 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: seven nine three one ten thirty Back on night Side after. 170 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: This, It's Night Side with Boston's News Radio. 171 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: My guest is the president of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine. 172 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: President Levine, I want to talk with you a little 173 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: bit about as you wrote this book, you know, post 174 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: COVID focused on the upheaval and education all of the 175 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: demographic uh pushes and pulls that you deal with as 176 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 2: the president at Brandeis and and and you have talked 177 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: in the book about, you know, DEI diversity and equity 178 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: and inclusion, which ended up being pretty uh controversial at 179 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 2: a lot of universities. And I want to go back 180 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: to that testimony in front of Congress, and I'm curious 181 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: how you watched it unfold that day where we had 182 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: three presidents of universities, President Claudine Gay of Harvard, President 183 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 2: then president Liz McGill of the University of Pennsylvania at 184 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 2: the Ivy League School, and MIT President Sally Cornblooth. And 185 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 2: they were questioned by, amongst others, a Republican congresswoman named 186 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: Eliz Stephanic. And the issue that I think got Gay 187 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 2: into trouble when Stephanic asked her about students on Harvard's 188 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 2: campus who were calling for the genocide of Jews, and 189 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: again this was in the wake of October of twenty 190 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: twenty three, whether that violated Harvard's code of conduct and 191 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: Accuoting to ABC News, Gay responded, quote, and this is 192 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: the academic demese language. That the rules around bullying and 193 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: harassment are quite specific, and if the context in which 194 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 2: that language is used amounts to bullying and harassment, then 195 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: we take we take action against it. Stephanic then followed 196 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,119 Speaker 2: through and asked whether or not students who were shouting 197 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 2: from the river to the sea or into fada and 198 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: we know what the implications of those phrases were. And 199 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: Gay just seemed not to even understand the implications of 200 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: the question. Uh, And shortly thereafter she resigned. She's a 201 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 2: young woman, should have been president of Harvard for for 202 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 2: a long time. Did the universities? Did they become so 203 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: isolated that they didn't understand what was going on in 204 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: the greater world and the country around them? How could 205 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: university presidents and again your university president like a Charlene Gay, 206 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:12,439 Speaker 2: or like the president of of you Penn Liz McGill, 207 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: that hearing cost them their jobs With that out of 208 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 2: touch as you look back on it now and in 209 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 2: the context of the book, what did they not understand 210 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: or what should they understood better? 211 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 4: I think there was a mismatch saying three college presidents 212 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 4: walked in to a collegiate debate and found it was 213 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 4: actually a gunfight. 214 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: Sounds like the beginning of a joke. Three college presidents 215 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 2: walk into a bar. 216 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 4: Go ahead, and which one should keep her job? 217 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 3: Yes? 218 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 4: So that what happened was they walked in, they treated 219 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 4: it as if it were a faculty meeting. Yeah, and 220 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 4: they spoke to Congress that was after red meat, and 221 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 4: described this in very genteel, debatable terms, when in fact 222 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 4: they're being interested by people who wanted blood. 223 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, someone somewhat characterize the Claudine Gay response, which 224 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 2: I read to you as what is referred to to 225 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: us derisively as a word salad. I mean a lot 226 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 2: of words. Maybe sounds good, but what the hell did 227 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: she mean? 228 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 4: And the words that you used before academies, Yes, that's 229 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 4: what it is. 230 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: I think I took that from you. I believe I 231 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: stole that from your books. 232 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, but I thought it was nicer to give you credit. 233 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: I know, but I have to give credit where credit 234 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: is due. So go ahead and follow. I want to 235 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: hear your answer to that thought. 236 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 4: In universities, we stick a language that people in universities understand, 237 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 4: but the rest of the world doesn't. And that's why 238 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 4: universities in part have been so ineffective and making the 239 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 4: case for themselves in public. And that's also provided an 240 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 4: enormous opportunity for politician to do speak English. 241 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, to tell them apart. 242 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 2: Okay, so let me ask you this, and again, I 243 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: think my audience would these are some of the questions 244 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: my audience might ask. I'm sure they'll have an opportunity 245 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 2: to call and ask questions themselves. One of the which 246 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 2: you touch upon in the book is, you know, the 247 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 2: great debate over diversity, equity and inclusion. And I think 248 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 2: that abroad in the land, many people have thought that 249 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: the colleges were either advertently or inadvertently sheltering these students 250 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: so that when they would come to college, they would 251 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: not be present with a view that was any different 252 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 2: than than the one that they brought. And they're eighteen 253 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 2: years old and they have never been challenged and they're 254 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: not going to get challenged in college. And if if 255 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 2: they do They're going to look for some sort of 256 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 2: a comfort animal and a blanket. And I think that 257 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: I'm serious when I say this. I often, in my 258 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,239 Speaker 2: own mind compare the eighteen year olds who were on 259 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: the beaches at Normandy in nineteen forty four June of 260 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 2: nineteen forty four, there were no comfort animals available. Now 261 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: that's an unfear I think characterization by me, But it's 262 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: one that works. And did a lot of the schools, 263 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: and particularly the really great universities, the ones that have 264 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: international reputation like Harvard and Brandeis and the others that 265 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 2: you mentioned, did they, in their effort to make life 266 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: comfortable for the students? Do them a disservice? 267 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 4: You know the term DEI, yes, Diversity, equity and inclusion. 268 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 4: I wrote about it in this book I wrote before 269 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 4: Trump was elected, and what I recommended was get rid of. 270 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: The name DEI. 271 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 4: It's a target on your back. You don't want it there. Also, 272 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 4: whatever DEI means, it's not a goal, I don't know. 273 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:35,160 Speaker 4: It's a term that has evolved over fifty years. First 274 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 4: it only referred to black students, better referred to black 275 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 4: faculty in students. Then it became other groups. Then we 276 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 4: began and say, you know, it's not just amout a missions. 277 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 4: This is also about supporting people once they get to college. 278 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 4: You know what, It's not only that it's a graduation. 279 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: And then we said, and you know what, there are 280 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,239 Speaker 4: more and more groups we have to add in. And 281 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,959 Speaker 4: I think what happened to that term that it became elusive, 282 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 4: It lost all meaning, but it was politicized, so I 283 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 4: recommended drop it. Once upon a time I had what 284 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 4: might have been called a DEI program to get STEM 285 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 4: teachers into high need schools STEM teachers of color into 286 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 4: high need schools in Indiana, yep. And when I went 287 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 4: to explain the program to democrats, I explained, same program. 288 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 4: I explained, this is something that deals with equity. It's 289 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 4: about fairness, it's about opportunity. Sure, when I went to 290 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 4: speak to Republicans, I said, same program. This program is 291 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 4: about labor market, economic development. And both were true, yes, 292 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 4: but they had greater value to each audience. And what 293 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 4: I thought was if colleges really explained what they wanted, 294 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,639 Speaker 4: but we really you want is access for all people 295 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 4: to higher education who can benefit from it. 296 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, And at the end. 297 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 4: Of the day, once they get there. You got to 298 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 4: support them. 299 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and at the end of the day, if everybody 300 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 2: has a piece of the action, so to speak, it's fairer. 301 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 2: But it's also better for everyone because at that point 302 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: everybody is pushing in the same direction for success in 303 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 2: whatever particular field they choose. Mister President, I got to 304 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: take a break here because we have news at the 305 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: bottom of the hour. We get about four minutes here. 306 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 2: You can stretch your legs. We get the phone calls 307 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 2: and more conversation. My guest is the president of Brandeis University, 308 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 2: Arthur Levine. From Upheaval to Action, What works in changing 309 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: higher End. This is the second book dealing with this issue. 310 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: A prior book in twenty and twenty one was entitled 311 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: The Great Upheaval Higher Education's Past, Present and Uncertain Future. 312 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: What I like about President Levine is that he answers questions, 313 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 2: and he answers questions in which way, in a way 314 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 2: in which I can understand the answers. And I think 315 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 2: that is the key to education, because that's what students 316 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 2: are supposed to do, and that is what professors are 317 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: supposed to do. And that might also be part of 318 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: his next book. I don't know. We'll have to take 319 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: a break here six one, seven, two, five, four ten 320 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: thirty six one seven ninety three one ten thirty. Again, 321 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 2: I don't care what your question is or your comment. 322 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 2: Feel free. The president of Brandeis, Arthur Levigne, is in 323 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: a in a position of great influence. Feel free to 324 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 2: ask questions, make comments. We just keep it polite. Whatever 325 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: your point of view. Don't assume that you are in 326 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 2: the minority viewpoint, don't assume you're in the majority viewpoint. 327 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,639 Speaker 2: Ask you a question and be prepared to engage in 328 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 2: a in a rational conversation. We'll be back on Nightside 329 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,719 Speaker 2: the conversation either way, coming back right after this. 330 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Ray on Boston's news radio. 331 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 2: Good opening day for the Red Sox. With us is 332 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 2: Arthur Levine. He's the president of Brandeis University, at the 333 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: top of academia, a great university. His new book written 334 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: in conjunction with a scholar named Scott van Pelt, From 335 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 2: Upheaval to Action. We will get more into the book, 336 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: but obviously I want to wet your appetite and hopefully 337 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 2: those of you who are interested will purchase the book, 338 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 2: which I assume is now out, President Levine, and available 339 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 2: with bookstores and Amazon and all the regular places. 340 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 4: Correct, absolutely, yes, yes, don't even listen to the rest 341 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 4: of the interview, just run and get the book now. 342 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 2: I want them to listen to the rest of the interview. 343 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 2: I want them to call and join the conversation because, look, 344 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 2: I feel that education is so important because the people 345 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 2: who are in college today and who are being educated today, 346 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 2: they are going to fulfill the jobs that need to 347 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 2: be filled. They're going to earn the money which will 348 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: pay for my Social Security for others, the baby boom 349 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 2: baby boomer generation. So I root for the teams that 350 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: are coming up behind us. Let me go to Tom 351 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: in West Virginia. Tom, welcome back to Night's. I'd say 352 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 2: hi to President Arthur Levine of Brandeis University. 353 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, Hey, good evening, Professor Levine. 354 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 3: You know, good evening, pig. 355 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm not a college graduate. I'm retired electrician for 356 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 4: the record, but. 357 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 6: I'm very disturbed at what happened after October twenty three 358 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 6: on college campuses. And I saw the testimony of Claudine 359 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 6: Gay on Capitol Hill, and I just found her just 360 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 6: to be aloof and just dismissive of what those Jewish 361 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 6: kids went through. And for the record, I'm not a Jew. 362 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 6: I'm a Presbyterian by faith and by choice, but I 363 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 6: do consider myself a Jew and a Zionist in solidarity. 364 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 6: And it just really really pissed me off to see 365 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 6: the smugness of those people on Capitol Hill with regards 366 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 6: to that. You know, I just couldn't imagine some nineteen 367 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,959 Speaker 6: year old kid, you know, from Newton, Massachusetts or wherever, 368 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 6: going to college and all of a sudden being browbeat 369 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 6: by his classmates that have no clue of the history 370 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 6: of Israel and what Amas truly wants. I'm just astounded 371 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 6: of the ignorance. And I'm not a learned guide by 372 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 6: any stretch of the imagination, but I know in the 373 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 6: charter of a Moss they want the destruction of Israel. 374 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 6: And what does that mean to some guy named Shlomo 375 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 6: who lives, you know, in Tel Aviv. It means they 376 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 6: want him out of there, and if mind necessary, you know, uh, yeah, 377 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 6: I won't say that. But anyway, I'm just very disturbed and. 378 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 2: I wish were Tom. Tom. I share some of your 379 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: a lot of your concerns. I think you know that, 380 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: and you've been a call before and I know you 381 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 2: very well. However, I think a lot of that blame 382 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 2: can be laid not necessarily at colleges. I think it 383 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: needs to be blamed at high schools, because I don't 384 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 2: know that they're sending kids off to college, you know, 385 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: with a real understanding of the good and the bad 386 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: that that we've we've found in the world over millennium. 387 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 2: Let's get President Levine to comment on that. But particularly 388 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 2: in the context of his position as president of a university, 389 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: which is an extraordinary university. I got to assume that 390 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff that Claude and Gay and 391 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 2: Harvard went through, we're not present, I hope at Brandeis. 392 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 4: No Brandeis had Brandised was created right after World War Two, 393 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 4: and the reason for creating Brandeis was that there were 394 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 4: quotas on Jews, on Blacks, on other minorities, on women. 395 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 6: And. 396 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 2: At the great schools like Harvard to we're not you know, 397 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 2: we can name names. I mean the Jewish students were 398 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 2: not welcomed at Harvard for many decades. 399 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 4: No, no, so yes, I think what the issue And 400 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,400 Speaker 4: by Tom, by the way, I think you underrate yourself 401 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 4: by saying you're not learning. What I will say is 402 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 4: that at Brandie we have been running programs for schools, 403 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 4: for colleges on anti Semitism and combating it. We're about 404 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 4: to start those seminars for policy makers in government and 405 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 4: also for the media. We really need to combat eight 406 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 4: of all kinds today because this is a climate that's 407 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 4: allowed hate to fester and to grow. Could I say 408 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 4: one last thing, I professor, Yeah, you know, I did 409 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 4: a little research. Jews make up about sixteen million of 410 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 4: the world's population. There are point zero two percent, an 411 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:46,439 Speaker 4: extremely small minority as you look at the global picture. 412 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:53,160 Speaker 6: Yet I believe out of the nine hundred Nobel Peace 413 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 6: Prize winners, two hundred and nine I believe now have 414 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 6: been people that are Jews. 415 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: And I think you're when you say Nobel, you're not 416 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: talking about the Nobel Peace Price telling me talking about 417 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 2: the Nobel Science Prizes here, I believe. 418 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it's kind of astounding. And 419 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 4: you know, I have a friend of mine who lives 420 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 4: over in Israel that I communicate, uh, you know, through 421 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 4: social media, and I made the comment to him one time, 422 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 4: you know something Jews or the canary of the coal 423 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 4: mine of humanity. And anyway, I'll leave you with that thought, sir, 424 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 4: thank you. It's a pleasure to speak. 425 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 2: With you, and you appreciate the call. Yeah, and that 426 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 2: that's that is a that is a fear I got 427 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 2: to be be. You know, when we talk about anti 428 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: Semitism on college campuses, uh, I know that there were, 429 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 2: you know, efforts to keep Jewish kids, particularly out of Harvard, 430 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 2: and that's changed now. That is not the situation at Harvard, 431 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: certainly in the last you know, in the last fifty years, 432 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,240 Speaker 2: no question about that. But before that, back in the 433 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 2: twenties and the thirties, the way it was. My concern 434 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 2: is that a lot of the anti Semitism, the feral 435 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 2: and anti semitism that when I grew up in President 436 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: Levigne and I are, I think, if not identical, pretty 437 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: close in age. The real hatred in this country you 438 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: found on the far right, the American Nazi Party, Ku 439 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 2: Klux Klan or people who wanted to rekindle the Ku 440 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 2: Klux Klan, and a lot of that now is betastasized 441 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 2: to the left, and I don't understand it. I know 442 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 2: that there was a professor and I may have mentioned 443 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: this before. Who was a professor at Columbia who said 444 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: that he was exhilarated by what happened on October seventh. 445 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: That is that is that was I mean appalled, you know, disgusting, 446 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: but exhilarating. And that's a professor at a at an 447 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: Ivy League college. That one hit me right between the eyes. 448 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: And and I just hope that universities can can can 449 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: take kids who maybe didn't learn about the Holocaust, didn't 450 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 2: learn about world history period, didn't learn in high schools, 451 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: and and can and can let them understand that that 452 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: there's been a lot of bad stuff that's going on 453 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 2: in the world, and a lot of it has been 454 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 2: directed at people who happen to be Jewish disproportionately. A 455 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: quick comment and then I gotta take another quick break, President. 456 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 4: Levine, Okay, oh quick comment I'd say is you're absolutely 457 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 4: right that professor should not have had a home at 458 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 4: any university. That's entirely inappropriate. That professor should have been 459 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 4: let should have been fired. 460 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: Of course that the counter argument is, well, he he 461 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 2: has free speech, and he but but that's you know, 462 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: he can say what he wants, Uh, he can believe 463 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: what he wants, but there should be some consequences of that. 464 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 2: And I don't want to sound like Senator McCarthy at all, 465 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: although you know my mother's name was McCarthy. I I 466 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 2: just think that maiden name. But but I think that 467 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 2: when you're in a position of great influence, and I 468 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 2: don't know how you as it, as an intellectual, which 469 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: a college professor should be, can come to that conclusion. 470 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 2: That's what's what astonishes me. I accept it from people 471 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 2: who are totally ignorant, but college professors. Let's take a 472 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,920 Speaker 2: quick break because I want to come back and I 473 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: want to get a little bit of insight towards the 474 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 2: rest of the book and where universities have to go 475 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: to come to deal with and accommodate the changing higher education. 476 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 2: My guest is Professor Arthur Levine. He's the president of 477 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 2: Brandeis University. The new book From Appeal to Action, What 478 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 2: Works in Changing Higher Ed? Back on Nightside. 479 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray. I'm w Boston's 480 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: News Radio. 481 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 2: But I guess it's the president of Brandeis University, Arthur Levine, 482 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: his new book, from Upheaval to Action, What Works in 483 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 2: Changing Higher Ed? We only have a few minutes left, 484 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 2: but I have to ask you, what will the changes 485 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: be that higher education not only Brandeis in the Harvards 486 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 2: of the world, but other universities across the country. What 487 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:04,960 Speaker 2: are the changes that they will have to accommodate in 488 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 2: order to survive and prosper in your opinion, in the 489 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 2: next say quarter of a century. 490 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, what's kind of happen is that, you know, colleges 491 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 4: and university is the most effective when they have one 492 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 4: foot in the library sort of all the accumulated knowledge 493 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 4: of humanity, and one foot in the street. When the 494 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 4: world changes quickly, we lose traction with the street, the 495 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 4: real world. There's this great story that Henry Adams. This 496 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 4: guy was a historian, he was a journalist. His great 497 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 4: grandfather was president of the United States. His grandfather was president 498 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 4: the United States. He went to Harvard in eighteen fifty 499 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 4: and he complained that he received an eighteenth century education 500 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 4: for a world plunging into the twentieth century. Harvard didn't 501 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 4: plan to give him a two hundred year old education. 502 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 4: The world around them changed so quickly that that happened. 503 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 4: What colleges and universities need to do and if what 504 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 4: we just did at Brandize focus on careers, focus on life. 505 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 4: We're a liberal arts college, but we want to know 506 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 4: how all that stuff supplied. When a student arrives at Brandise, 507 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 4: they get an academic. 508 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 3: Advisors, that a career advisor. 509 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 4: They get experiences in the real world tied to what 510 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 4: they're studying in the classroom, and we give them a 511 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 4: second transcript. First one has grades and courses. Second one 512 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 4: tells what they know and they can do what are 513 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 4: they competent at? And that's intended for employers. Those kinds 514 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 4: of changes that focus on careers and life are essential, 515 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 4: and higher education has not changed as quickly as. 516 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 3: It needs to meet the needs of the world. 517 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: So I don't want to coin a phrase here, but 518 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 2: you're talking about sort of a holistic curriculum. 519 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that's much better than what I said. 520 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,439 Speaker 2: No, it isn't, not at all. But are there other 521 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 2: schools that you know? I assumed that because of the 522 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: work that your books, that you put into your books, 523 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: I'm sure that Brandeis is ahead of the curb. Are 524 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 2: there other schools that around the country you're at least 525 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 2: aware of this and starting to do that. 526 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 4: Absolutely, we saw the originally wrote the second book was that 527 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,160 Speaker 4: we had never intended to do it, But after writing 528 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 4: the first one, we gotten invited to consult with a 529 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 4: lot of universities, to talk with foundations, to talk with government, 530 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 4: to talk with associations, and we got this broad overview 531 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 4: of higher education in the United States at all kinds 532 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 4: of institutions, and a deep dive into the institutions we 533 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 4: worked with, which were about seventy And what we ended 534 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 4: up was, don't many of the colleges just weren't acting. 535 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 4: They were acting is if they assumed all the conditions 536 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 4: that are facing higher education weren't going to touch them, 537 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 4: and somehow they would escape from all this. But we 538 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 4: saw some wonderful schools. We saw terrific community colleges. There's 539 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 4: one in Texas, and what they did was a deep 540 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 4: dive into the data on their community and their students. 541 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,759 Speaker 4: And what they did was they gave that data a name. 542 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,399 Speaker 4: They called it Maria. Maria's twenty six, she's got two kids, 543 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 4: she has two jobs, she's a Latina, and she's first 544 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 4: generation college. So what they did was they looked at 545 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 4: their whole program it's Amarillo College. They looked at their 546 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 4: entire program. They made dramatic changes, and they began asking 547 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 4: how do we help Maria actually graduate from college and 548 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 4: still keep the rigor of what we need to do. 549 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 4: Their graduation rates went through the sky. 550 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 2: That, of course, obviously is taking into consideration the context 551 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 2: of Maria's life. 552 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 4: Absolutely, that's really what this is about. Every college needs 553 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 4: it's Maria. 554 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 2: All right, The hour has flown by. There are some 555 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: callers who are now hanging on the line, and they 556 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,440 Speaker 2: should have called in earlier. But I think that we 557 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 2: have explained the book a little bit, I hope enough 558 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 2: for people to go buy it and read it from 559 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 2: upheaple to action what works in changing higher ed President 560 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 2: Arthur Levine, the president of Brandeis, once again, you exceed 561 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 2: my expectations. I wish I had been smart enough to 562 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 2: go to Brandeis when I went to college too many 563 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 2: years ago. 564 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 4: He just made a different choice, that's all. And by 565 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,160 Speaker 4: the way, I love spending time with you. There's a 566 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 4: lot of fun talking to you. 567 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,319 Speaker 2: Right back at you. Sunday, I have to come over 568 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 2: and we'll grab a couple of coffee. But please keep 569 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 2: us posting on the book and we'll have you back anytime. 570 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 2: I really do appreciate your time, and what I most 571 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 2: admire about you is your passion. You still have the 572 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: passion for what you're doing. I have passion for what 573 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 2: I'm doing, but not everybody our vintage maintains the passion for. 574 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 3: What they're doing. 575 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 4: We're too lucky, guys. 576 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: We are. We found out something that we both like. Uh, 577 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 2: mister President, thank you so much. Arthur Levine, President of 578 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 2: Brandeis University. The call us in the line you've missed, 579 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 2: you missed the boat here the hour has changed. We 580 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 2: have a guest coming up on the other side, Major 581 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 2: General retired Robert Dees knows a lot about the Middle East, 582 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 2: and we're going to pick his brain as to what's 583 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 2: going on there and what might go on in the future. 584 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 2: Thanks again, mister President.