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Speaker 1: Welcome to Get Connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on

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Speaker 1: one oh six point seven light FM.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to Get Connected all at once. It

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Speaker 2: seems as if AI and music are intertwined. It's being

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Speaker 2: used from everything from restoring old recordings to generating entire

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Speaker 2: songs from prompts for musicians. Is AI a tool or

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Speaker 2: a rival? My guest is Emmy Award winning composer and

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Speaker 2: producer Lucas Canter Santiago, who was commissioned by one of

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Speaker 2: the largest technology companies in the world to experiment by

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Speaker 2: collaborating with AI to finish Franz Schubert's Unfinished Symphony. That

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Speaker 2: project led him to question his long standing assumptions about

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Speaker 2: what music is, what technology does, and how the two

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Speaker 2: have evolved through history. Lucas Canter Santiago's book is Unfinished,

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Speaker 2: The Role of the Artist in the Age of Artificial Intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Lucas Canter Santiago, thank you for being on Get Connected.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. It's pleas to be here.

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Speaker 2: Lucas Kentter Santiago is a composer, producer, multi instrumentalist, and

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Speaker 2: Emmy Award Winner. He's collaborated on projects with Lord, the

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Speaker 2: Wu Tang Clans, Bike Jones, Warner Music, DreamWorks, Disney, and

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Speaker 2: the list goes on. So our listeners would know your music,

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Speaker 2: probably from the super Bowl or from the Olympics. You

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Speaker 2: have a long history of writing music for TV networks

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Speaker 2: and also film and TV theme music. For people who

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Speaker 2: aren't at all familiar with that work, I wonder if

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Speaker 2: you could start by talking about what your work is

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Speaker 2: and a bit of your workplace. It is very technology dependent.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you for having me on.

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Speaker 4: What I tell people is that you've heard my music,

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Speaker 4: but you alos certainly didn't do it on purpose. So

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Speaker 4: I did score the introduction to last year's super Bowl.

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Speaker 4: There's were twenty twenty five super Bowl. It was Brad

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Speaker 4: Pitt talking about America for a few minutes, getting everyone

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Speaker 4: hyped up for the game. It's really amazing, and about

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Speaker 4: two hundred and eighty million people saw it. But I

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Speaker 4: don't think anybody if you watch of my work and

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Speaker 4: you think the music is amazing, I haven't done my job.

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Speaker 4: My job was to tell the story. So hopefully you

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Speaker 4: watched that and you were pumped up to watch the

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Speaker 4: Super Bowl.

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Speaker 3: That was the goal.

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Speaker 4: I did a similar thing for the Super Bowl two

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Speaker 4: years ago, and that is a lot of my work

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Speaker 4: in sports is writing music that cants you pumped up

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Speaker 4: to watch a sporting event. We have a joke internally

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Speaker 4: that you know what is actually happening as grown men

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Speaker 4: are playing a game, and we try to make it

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Speaker 4: seem important and heavy, and it is if you're a

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Speaker 4: fan of the game, but ultimately you know it's it's

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Speaker 4: adults playing games. So the way I approach that musically

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Speaker 4: is really with a lot of seriousness and a lot

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Speaker 4: of weight, because you know, these moments meet a lot

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Speaker 4: of the people who watch them, so and to me,

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Speaker 4: I know, this isn't a podcast about baseball, but I

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Speaker 4: could talk about based offer as long as you like.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so people would know my work from from that.

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Speaker 4: The Lord song was on the Harder Games Catching Fire soundtrack,

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Speaker 4: so some people may have heard that it was her

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Speaker 4: cover of Everybody Wants to Run the World. And a

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Speaker 4: lot of a lot of my music my day obvious

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Speaker 4: to write music for television, and I write a lot

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Speaker 4: of library music as well, so some music that is

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Speaker 4: used in the backgrounds of movie scenes and you would

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Speaker 4: never notice that it was there, but you would notice

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Speaker 4: if it was not there.

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Speaker 2: And so much of this is created by technology. It's

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Speaker 2: really indispensable. The technology you have at your fingertips gives

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Speaker 2: you access to create tools and almost any sound virtually.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of the job, is to go out and

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Speaker 2: find new sounds and put them together in a new way.

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Speaker 2: What does AI offer.

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Speaker 3: You, Well, let's let's let's back out.

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Speaker 4: I think that I think it's not obvious what you

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Speaker 4: said to most people that I use a lot of

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Speaker 4: tools and a lot of technological tools to be a composer.

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Speaker 3: I am a composer the same way that fron Schubert

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Speaker 3: was a composer.

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Speaker 4: I'm a composer the same way any one who writes

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Speaker 4: music for people as a composer. But I write my

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Speaker 4: music almost entirely on a computer, and so does every

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Speaker 4: other composer today. Someone who writes music by hand is

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Speaker 4: a anachronism at best. But every composer that I know

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Speaker 4: writes music with some form of technology.

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Speaker 3: So that gives us a unique window into the world

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Speaker 3: of artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 4: Because for a lot of people who have had AI,

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Speaker 4: you know, maybe ll m's kind of thrust into their workflow.

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Speaker 3: Technology has been part of my workflow for.

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Speaker 4: Years, decades, and so AI is just kind of an

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Speaker 4: incremental change. It's a it's a new way of processing data.

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Speaker 4: It's a different way of processing data. It's I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's you know, the use case is still kind of

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Speaker 4: unclear what what AI will be used for. In music,

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Speaker 4: I have used it. I used it as I detail

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Speaker 4: in the book. I used it to finish Schubert's on

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Speaker 4: Finish Symphony. And this was someone scholars have finished schuberts

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Speaker 4: on Finnish Symphony before.

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Speaker 3: This was the first time.

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Speaker 4: That AI had been employed to do it, and it

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Speaker 4: was it was an interesting project, but you know, it

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Speaker 4: was I don't know if AI was was is as

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Speaker 4: relevant as the human artistry of you know, conceiving of

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Speaker 4: the idea and then executing the idea and you know,

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Speaker 4: and a symphony.

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Speaker 3: Is you know, performed by you know, it doesn't.

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Speaker 4: Happen without about one hundred people contributing lifetime of talent.

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Speaker 2: As you talk about in the book. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: human element is so interesting. For instance, technology, yes, has

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Speaker 2: been a part of so many things over time. Technology

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Speaker 2: we're not talking about necessarily computers, just For instance, as

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Speaker 2: you detail in the book, I think the oldest musical

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Speaker 2: instrument found is a bone, right, a bone flute or something.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the more interesting ones from the

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Speaker 2: modern era to show us how music has evolved is

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Speaker 2: the microphone. Can you talk about how just the invention

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Speaker 2: of the microphone changed performers and performance?

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Speaker 4: Sure, that's a that's a very like Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 4: very live present example that I do this when I

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Speaker 4: do talks in person, I will sort of sing like

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Speaker 4: someone would have saying in the nineteen twenties, and then

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Speaker 4: the way that Frank Sinatra would sing.

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Speaker 3: So if you are, you.

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Speaker 4: Know, a like a like Connie Boswell or some you

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Speaker 4: know singer from the era before or who's performing before microphones,

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Speaker 4: you had to belt the back row because behind you

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Speaker 4: was an orchestra that was playing extremely loud, so you

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Speaker 4: had to belt really loud to be heard. And that's

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Speaker 4: that sort of Broadway style. Frank Sinatra was able to

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Speaker 4: use a microphone. So you know, it's it's it's asmr.

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Speaker 4: It's this this feeling that he's right there next to you,

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Speaker 4: and he's and he's sort of just kind of telling

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Speaker 4: you these songs in a very intimate way that was

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Speaker 4: that was entirely new at the time. That goes because

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Speaker 4: it was not technologically possible. So microphones made possible. Like

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Speaker 4: initially we used them to amplify existing things, but then

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Speaker 4: we very quickly started to use them as new with

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Speaker 4: new forms of expression. The way Frank Sinatra sings is

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Speaker 4: completely different than how people saying before him, and.

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Speaker 3: It is how everybody sings now.

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Speaker 4: So there's uh, you know that that is one of

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Speaker 4: many examples of the technology completely changing the sound of

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Speaker 4: music and completely changing what we perceive as you know,

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Speaker 4: interesting and relevant.

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Speaker 2: My guest is Lucas Canter Santiago, a composer, producer, multi

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Speaker 2: instrumentalist and Emmy Award winner. His concert works include the

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Speaker 2: final two movements of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony Finished with AI.

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Speaker 2: His website is Lucascantersantiago dot com and his book is

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Speaker 2: Unfinished The Role of the Artist in the Age of

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Speaker 2: Artificial Intelligence. You're listening to get connected on one oh

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Speaker 2: six point seven light FM. I'mina del Rio. So your

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Speaker 2: work is about creating music, a lot of it that

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Speaker 2: sets a specific tone or a mood, scary, powerful, exciting

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Speaker 2: music to fit a formula, and as you write in

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Speaker 2: the book, you have colleagues who perhaps work in the

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Speaker 2: same realm who feel most threatened by AI because of

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Speaker 2: the work that you do. So how does AI make music?

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Speaker 2: When we talk about the microphones and flutes, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about different sounds and amplification. But what does AI do

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Speaker 2: that's different?

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Speaker 4: Well, I can tell you how AI does anything, which

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Speaker 4: is it predicts the.

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Speaker 3: Next likely thing. That's really all it's doing.

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Speaker 4: So the token sca be musical sounds, or they can

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Speaker 4: be letters, or they can be words. But what it

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Speaker 4: does at its core is use sophisticated mathematical analysis to

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Speaker 4: guess what should come next. And this is why I

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Speaker 4: don't like to use the term hallucinate, because that implies

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Speaker 4: some kind of sentience. But this is why they will

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Speaker 4: sometimes say nonsensical things, because the branching tree just gets

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Speaker 4: lost and so it just goes down a rabbit hole

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Speaker 4: things that don't make sense. Or it will make say

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Speaker 4: sentence that does make sense, but it doesn't make any

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Speaker 4: sense in context, and then we call that hallucination.

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Speaker 3: So the way that it makes music is you.

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Speaker 4: Can train it on you know, spin slices of many,

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Speaker 4: many millions of pieces of music, and it will learn

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Speaker 4: what types of things tend to follow other things. It's

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Speaker 4: I mean, it sounds simple. I think it sounds simple.

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Speaker 4: The results are very robust, and you know, the ability

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Speaker 4: to predict what will.

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Speaker 3: Likely come next is is a very significant power. But

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Speaker 3: it is that's all. It is that all, that's all

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Speaker 3: the DAI is doing.

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Speaker 2: So in the Schubert project, just to give a little

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Speaker 2: bit of context for people from Schubert composed his symphony

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Speaker 2: number eight in eighteen twenty two, never completed it. There

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Speaker 2: were two movements along with an outline of a third,

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Speaker 2: and you were commissioned by Huawei to work with Ai

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Speaker 2: to finish that symphony. Yes, what was your task? Then?

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Speaker 4: Quahwei was at the time the biggest sell film manufacturer

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Speaker 4: in the world it is today.

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Speaker 3: One of the biggest, and they wanted to use this

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Speaker 3: capability to show off their new phone. And this was

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Speaker 3: for them.

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Speaker 4: It was a marketing exercise, and marketing executives don't know

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Speaker 4: what goes into making a symphony generally, and so they thought, yeah, okay, great,

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Speaker 4: pressa button, we'll get a symphony.

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Speaker 3: But you know, what even is a.

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Speaker 4: Symphony is a symphony that the written work. The music

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Speaker 4: notation is that the sounds in the air is it?

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Speaker 4: You know, any individual part, And these are questions that

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Speaker 4: you don't need to know every day with the questions

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Speaker 4: that you need to answer if you're going to produce

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Speaker 4: a symphony. And so what they had envisioned was this

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Speaker 4: sort of push button get symphony.

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Speaker 3: But that doesn't really exist.

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Speaker 4: There are too many steps between an idea and something

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Speaker 4: going on a stage. So what I was able to

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Speaker 4: and they had tried to do it without a human

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Speaker 4: and they got.

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Speaker 3: Basically complete nonsense results.

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Speaker 4: I mean not even like I'm not saying that they've

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Speaker 4: gotten results that were not musically interesting.

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Speaker 3: They were like cats walking on a piano.

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Speaker 4: And so they asked me if I could help, and

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Speaker 4: I suggested that the same way that a Huawei phone

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Speaker 4: is useless without a human operator, this capability is useless

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Speaker 4: without a human musician. And so what I suggested was that, like,

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Speaker 4: why don't I work with it and train it and

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Speaker 4: figure out how it's training data should be structured, and

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Speaker 4: then figure out how to prompt it and then get

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Speaker 4: results that we like, get melodies that make sense, and

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Speaker 4: then orchestrate those in a context that would make sense.

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Speaker 4: For the time and make sense for Schubert. So we

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Speaker 4: prompted it. We trained it with every Schubert melody we

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Speaker 4: can get our hands on. We prompted it with the

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Speaker 4: two movements that Schubert to finish, and we got back

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Speaker 4: melodic ideas that would go in the second and third movement.

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Speaker 4: And then I used my knowledge of nineteenth century symphonies

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Speaker 4: and use some of the organic unity techniques that they use,

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Speaker 4: like repriasing melodies from the first movement in the third

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Speaker 4: movement and that kind of thing, and the result is

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Speaker 4: a I think, a pretty listenable and interesting symphony.

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Speaker 2: So this was in twenty nineteen, and I know you've

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Speaker 2: worked on several projects with AI since then. If your

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Speaker 2: role was to in twenty nineteen to as you more

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Speaker 2: than just fill the gap, but in part fill the

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Speaker 2: gap and help interpret for the system what it was

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Speaker 2: going to come up with, What is the role going forward?

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Speaker 2: Is that gap something that is going to be Is

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Speaker 2: it going to be filled? What is the role of

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Speaker 2: the artist going forward?

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Speaker 4: So I think the role of the artist is it

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Speaker 4: hasn't really changed.

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Speaker 3: And that's the conclusion I came to.

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Speaker 4: In the book. I don't know if it's a conclusion.

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Speaker 4: But my feeling is that the role of the artist

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Speaker 4: is to understand what it is we do, how it

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Speaker 4: is meaningful to our audience, and how it is meaningful

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Speaker 4: to us and to and what it means for the

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Speaker 4: world broadly, and then to understand how tools have helped

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Speaker 4: to create that in the past and how they can

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Speaker 4: help to create those feelings in the future.

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Speaker 3: There's no there's no new.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it makes for a good copy to talk

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Speaker 4: about artificial intelligence doing things, but technology helping to create art.

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Speaker 3: Is not news.

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Speaker 4: It is something that has existed for every listener's entire lifetime,

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Speaker 4: and hundreds of years before that, and thousands and tens

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Speaker 4: of thousands of years before that. You know, the history

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Speaker 4: of technology and the history of music specifically are intertwined,

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Speaker 4: and there is no factor that affects the way music

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Speaker 4: sounds more than the technology that it's used to make it.

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Speaker 2: You also came to the conclusion, I don't know if

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Speaker 2: this was when you were younger, or it's just been

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Speaker 2: sort of underlined through your work in the last few years,

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Speaker 2: that the emotion that someone feels for music is more

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Speaker 2: about the listener perhaps the composition itself.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the I mean, the composer's intent is almost irrelevant

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Speaker 4: frankly too, how a piece of music is perceived, and

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Speaker 4: you can find examples of that without looking too far.

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Speaker 4: One of them that I write about in my book

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Speaker 4: is that Leonard Cohen's idea for Hallelujah was very, very

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Speaker 4: far away from how.

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Speaker 3: The song is perceived today.

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Speaker 4: And I picked that one because it's a famous example,

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Speaker 4: but you could find almost anything.

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Speaker 3: I love to think about.

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Speaker 4: Gunnn Style, which you know, the hit of fifteen years ago,

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Speaker 4: which I don't know what he was thinking when he

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Speaker 4: wrote that, and I don't know what we're thinking when

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Speaker 4: we listen to it, but they're definitely not the same thing.

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Speaker 4: You don't decide, like you know, all art is the

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Speaker 4: audience has to meet you halfway. You know, as an artist,

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Speaker 4: you can create it and you can put it out

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Speaker 4: there in the world, but you really can't predict how

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Speaker 4: it's going to affect your audience. That's marketing, and marketing

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Speaker 4: you can predict. But in art, you're trying to say

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Speaker 4: something that is true for you and sort of see

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Speaker 4: if it's true for anybody else, and you learn that

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Speaker 4: the answer is sometimes yes and sometimes no, and both

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Speaker 4: can be beautiful.

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Speaker 2: It's the difference between looking at a painting and crying

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Speaker 2: and looking at a painting and walking to the next one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, or I guess the opposite of looking at a

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Speaker 4: painting and crying would be looking at a painting and laughing,

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Speaker 4: which I think is also the great.

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Speaker 2: Response Lucas Canter Santiago's book is Unfinished, The Role of

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Speaker 2: the Artist in the Age of Artificial Intelligence. Thank you

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Speaker 2: for being on to Get Connected.

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Speaker 3: It was my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: This has been Get Connected with Nina del Rio on

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Speaker 1: one oh six point seven light FM. The views and

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Speaker 1: opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views

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