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Speaker 1: This is your Thank god we didn't sign Framber Valdez

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Speaker 1: Leader Fan Fan Radio Network. No it's not good baseball

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Speaker 1: and k fa N dot com. Two minutes, two seconds

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Speaker 1: past the hour, three o'clock Central Standard time, Welcome back.

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Speaker 1: It is a Tuesday edition of the Bumper to Bumper program.

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Speaker 1: As most of you know by now, my name is

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Speaker 1: Dan Barrero, formering stint Retch newspaper the Twin Cities Guards.

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Speaker 1: He's the producer of the program, two time state high

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Speaker 1: school tennis champion, and the radio voice of the eventual

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Speaker 1: NCAA champion Golden Golfer women's basketball team. I see eventual

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Speaker 1: doesn't have to be this season, but now it seems

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Speaker 1: like it is inevitable.

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Speaker 2: Where going a Final.

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Speaker 1: Four run and maybe even beyond there. We're delighted you're

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Speaker 1: along for the ride today. I will give you details

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Speaker 1: on the guest lineup in just a minute. News, as

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Speaker 1: most of you know by now, not good regarding your

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Speaker 1: Minnesota Twins, and the worst case scenario has indeed played

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Speaker 1: out regarding Pablo Latt Lopez pretty much certainly out for

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty sixth season, feels a twinge at his

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Speaker 1: elbow and next thing you know he's on the track

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Speaker 1: for his second I believe Tommy John surgery.

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Speaker 2: They are going to look for a second opinion.

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Speaker 1: Which is I think the least anyone would consider doing

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Speaker 1: in a situation like this. But none of that looks

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Speaker 1: particularly good. And as I said at the top of

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Speaker 1: the show, thank god we were edged out by the

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Speaker 1: Detroit Tigers for top free agent pitcher from ber Valdez,

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Speaker 1: because what a waste it would have been. If you're

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Speaker 1: down Pablo, suddenly you're down two really good starting pitchers,

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Speaker 1: and you need at least three or four if you're

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Speaker 1: going to be at least three if you're going to

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Speaker 1: be a contender. So it would have been like an

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Speaker 1: incredible waste of money to sign Valdez. I'm assuming most

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Speaker 1: of you know that the latest polead in this case,

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Speaker 1: it's Tom Polad, is shouting that from the rooftops and

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Speaker 1: actually expecting people to pay attention to.

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Speaker 2: It as if it has meaning.

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Speaker 1: It's gone from does Joe Polad exist? To Tom Polad. God,

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Speaker 1: here he comes again. He wants to talk some more. Jesus,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing left to say to Tom Pohlad. Can he

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Speaker 1: go away for a while? He's too available? He's basically

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Speaker 1: in the lunch room with play the clubhouse, he's in

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Speaker 1: the weight room with with with with with members of

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Speaker 1: his team.

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Speaker 2: He's the Merekat. He's apparently become Harcat.

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Speaker 1: Then is there anybody who has the common sense to

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Speaker 1: sit him down, to say, stop with the mythology about Valdez.

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Speaker 1: Stop you think anybody's going to believe.

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Speaker 2: You what was? In fact?

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Speaker 1: We got Bonus leavel today at four point thirty, who

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Speaker 1: was the starting pitcher.

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Speaker 2: This was one of Lavell's. It was it was you, Darbus.

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Speaker 1: Remember we didn't get him, but we made a legitimate

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Speaker 1: offer for him. We didn't give him the extra year

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Speaker 1: that the Cubs I think ended up giving him. Right,

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Speaker 1: maybe Tom Pohlad remembers that or is inspired by it,

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Speaker 1: does anybody in their right mind? I mean, you want

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Speaker 1: to put up the commemorative print. We were second, by

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Speaker 1: the way, we didn't even really know that they were second.

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Speaker 1: They're probably fifteenth. It doesn't take anything to say what

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Speaker 1: Tom Poula did is what a one two three punch

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Speaker 1: that would have been, What a find that would have

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Speaker 1: been if we'd added him, And you know.

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Speaker 2: We talked about it, and we might have even you

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Speaker 2: know he made it.

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Speaker 1: I don't know I did he actually use the quote

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Speaker 1: he made an offer or we we sniffed.

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Speaker 2: Around whatever it was. He said, what, what universe are these.

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Speaker 1: People in the Minnesota Twins organization living in that they

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Speaker 1: think that's gonna have any kind of impact on people

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Speaker 1: that they're gonna go, Oh, this Paulad is serious. What's

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Speaker 1: the point of that? What does it do other than

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Speaker 1: infuriate me? And I'm assuming annoy a lot of other

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Speaker 1: people who are just gone. Why you're better off even

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Speaker 1: if you think you did designate to your to the

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Speaker 1: to your general manager. Take a look at him, kick

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Speaker 1: the tires on him about what it might cost.

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Speaker 2: Does anybody in their right in mind? What did he

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Speaker 2: end up getting? Three years, one fifteen? What are we doing?

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Speaker 1: We've just dropped the payroll sixty five to seventy dollars

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Speaker 1: the last two off seasons.

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Speaker 2: Does he think we're idiots?

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Speaker 1: Yes, the Twins always it doesn't matter what pole Aad

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Speaker 1: is in charge. Every Paulad thinks we're a bunch of sheep.

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Speaker 1: Didn't that strike you the same way? It's like, why

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Speaker 1: bring it up? What does it accomplish?

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Speaker 2: Nothing? Nothing?

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Speaker 1: Because we don't even have any reporting that's been done

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Speaker 1: by reliable sources to say, well, he went to the Tigers,

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Speaker 1: but the Twins made a pretty credible three year offer

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Speaker 1: for him that approached one hundred million dollars. Right, has

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Speaker 1: anybody reported that, not that I've seen. All we have

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Speaker 1: is what Tom Paul had told the reporters. Did he

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Speaker 1: think that that's going to buy off people? It's it's

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Speaker 1: mind boggling. And again, they may feel vindicated that they

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Speaker 1: didn't get him, because I guess you could look at

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Speaker 1: it two ways. You could say, if they actually had

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Speaker 1: gotten Valdez, they might have, they'd still have two really

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Speaker 1: good pictures at the top, and you still might have

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Speaker 1: a chance to compete. Now you're down to one really

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Speaker 1: good picture at the top. Right, we haven't traded Joe

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Speaker 1: Ryan yet yet yet, and we haven't traded Biden Buckston yet.

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Speaker 1: I did see that Tom Paul had had an eye

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Speaker 1: slong conversation with Joe Ryan today, good down by the dugout.

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Speaker 1: What did Ryan ask to be dealt? Because now I

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Speaker 1: want to I want to be dealt. I just know

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Speaker 1: they were talking. It's what we're learning about pitching, is

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Speaker 1: what even if your arm has been reconstructed by the

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Speaker 1: miracles of Sidon science, I should say.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to hold up. Right.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I think isn't there a quote from Pablo

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Speaker 1: saying the shelf life out of Tommy John's surgery. I

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Speaker 1: think it's like six years and he's way past that.

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Speaker 1: And he was hoping to continue to be the exception

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Speaker 1: to the rule. He missed a lot of last season

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Speaker 1: as well, did he not?

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Speaker 2: You sure did? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And now I was about to say it's over before

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Speaker 1: it began, but I think it was already over.

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Speaker 2: It just feels more over because the one.

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Speaker 1: Thing you could hang your hat on was, oh, they

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Speaker 1: got two good pictures at the top, and maybe some

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Speaker 1: others who can emerge and have from time to time.

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Speaker 2: But at least we know games one and two of

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Speaker 2: a series. You know, we gotta we gotta chance to

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Speaker 2: be competitive.

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Speaker 1: And now, in devastating fashion, that has been taken away

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Speaker 1: from your favorite baseball team, and in Pablo, I know

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Speaker 1: it's not supposed to matter, but it's he's such. He

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Speaker 1: seems like such a good dude, and he actually seemed

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Speaker 1: like he got into the bit about being a twin

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Speaker 1: like I'll always love him forever. When he was game

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Speaker 1: one starter in that infamous playoff series that we wanted

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Speaker 1: wearing the Johann jersey, right, he's wearing the Johann jersey.

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Speaker 1: He caught Johann's first pitch, like, he just got the

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Speaker 1: whole bit of what I think it meant to be

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Speaker 1: a twin What what Twins fans like, Yes, he got it,

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Speaker 1: and he gets it. Very professional guy, totally, very professional

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Speaker 1: guy's no question, does a ton in the community and

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Speaker 1: all of that and the first team workout.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I keep going back to the first

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Speaker 2: time this.

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Speaker 1: I think was the third inning of his what do

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Speaker 1: they call it, simulated game something like that, and it

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Speaker 1: was the first pitch I think or his first war

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Speaker 1: it was either his first pitchers first warm up pitch

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Speaker 1: for the third inning, and that was it.

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Speaker 2: And he said that his toast and he said, here's

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Speaker 2: what's said yesterday.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're trained in this business to not assume

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Speaker 1: the worst because you don't know. But you hear pitcher

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Speaker 1: pitching arm elbow, right twinge, and you go tightness or

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Speaker 1: whatever it is, and you go, that's probably it, man,

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Speaker 1: that's probably it. And that's exactly what it turned out

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Speaker 1: to be. He had Tommy John surgery in twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: That's a long time, and what he remembers is that

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Speaker 1: people said, Okay, you got about six years, and then

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Speaker 1: he gets past the six year mark right in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: he's going, I'm still alive.

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Speaker 2: And so at that point he.

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Speaker 1: Began hoping that maybe he was going to be the

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Speaker 1: exception to the rule.

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Speaker 2: Here's the quote we hear.

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Speaker 1: When you hear some tear on a ligament that you

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Speaker 1: needed to pitch, you needed to perform, then you want

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Speaker 1: to go for the option that is going to fix

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Speaker 1: that issue from the root brings disappointment. Over analyzing things,

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Speaker 1: the procedure brings disappointent, makes you feel like you failed,

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Speaker 1: and that's what he said. He feels like I've let

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Speaker 1: everybody down. Obviously he's not nobody down. There's no control

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Speaker 1: that he can have over what has become, like I said,

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Speaker 1: the norm, if you are a major league pitcher, there's

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Speaker 1: just no getting around it, right, And that's where we're at.

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Speaker 1: So we'll see what the second opinion indicates, but I

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Speaker 1: all bets are that one way or another, his season

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Speaker 1: is over and the twin season which was probably already

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Speaker 1: over anyway, is now really over until we remind ourselves that,

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Speaker 1: as Aaron Gleaman points out, there's a few interesting free

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Speaker 1: agent pitchers still in the market, because I am sure

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Speaker 1: we're going to gobble one or two of those up

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Speaker 1: to compensate for this loss, don't you expect that. Well,

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Speaker 1: either do that or we will slash the two dollars

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Speaker 1: beers to one dollar beers pregame and I'll try to

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Speaker 1: get some more people in.

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Speaker 2: You're right about that.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's we're gonna get out of here early

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Speaker 1: because we have a three fifteen guest coming up. I

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Speaker 1: mentioned Lavelle. He's four thirty, Luigi five thirty. Yes, Louis

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Speaker 1: Tuesday regular at five thirty. News breaking overnight that the

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Speaker 1: Reverend Jesse Jackson, civil rights leader, Democratic presidential candidate, has

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Speaker 1: died at the age of eighty four years old. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna chat when we come back with a Pulitzer Prize

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Speaker 1: winning biographer and journalist we've had on the show several

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Speaker 1: times before. Jonathan I one of his best, I mean

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Speaker 1: his triumph. His Pulitzer Triumph was a MLK biography that

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Speaker 1: came out several years ago. And Jesse Jackson features in

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Speaker 1: that and in all the research he did. I know

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Speaker 1: Jonathan will have much to say about sizing up the

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Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson legacy as well. He is coming up in

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Speaker 1: just a couple of minutes. A quick pause and back

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Speaker 1: with Fan. Our next guest has been on with us

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Speaker 1: several times before, although it's been a while. His first book,

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Speaker 1: in fact, I think that was the first time we

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Speaker 1: had him on is called Luckiest Man, The Life and

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Speaker 1: Death of Lou Garrig. He also wrote Opening Day, the

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Speaker 1: story of Jackie Robinson's first season, The Secret Plot that

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Speaker 1: captured Al Capone, The Birth of the Pill, How four

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Speaker 1: Crusaders reinvented sex and launched a revolution, Ali A Life

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Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, and King A Life as an MLK

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three. He is a Pulitzer Prize winning biographer, writer, journalist.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan I kind enough to give us a time on

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming demanding day.

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Speaker 2: Jonathan.

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Speaker 1: It's good to catch up with you. It's been a while,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for giving us a minute or two.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always good to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, thanks so much for the time.

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Speaker 1: So give me a little of the sense of of course,

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Speaker 1: here's the mistake I made. I've had the book at home.

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Speaker 1: I had it today to refresh my memory on some

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Speaker 1: of the Jackson stuff that you write about, and of

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Speaker 1: course I left it in my place as opposed to.

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Speaker 2: Bringing it here. So give me.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's maybe we start here, because I think one

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Speaker 1: of the stories I'd read previously was that it was

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Speaker 1: a conversation with a number of individuals, including Jesse Jackson,

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Speaker 1: back when you were researching the Ali book, that may

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Speaker 1: have prompted you to consider the idea of tackling the

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Speaker 1: enormous subject of MLK.

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Speaker 2: Is that true? That is true?

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Speaker 3: You know, people like Jesse Jackson, who knew Martin Luther King,

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Speaker 3: felt like his legacy had been really not well served.

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Speaker 3: That we've forgotten how radical King was, We've forgotten how

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Speaker 3: rooted in faith his radicalism was. And when I met

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Speaker 3: Jesse Jackson was what I was working on my Muhammad

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Speaker 3: Ali book. You know, it's just occurred to me that

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Speaker 3: this is a guy who worked with him and him

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Speaker 3: really well, and they were very different. You know, they

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Speaker 3: didn't always get along, and I think it's you know,

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Speaker 3: we need to embrace those stories, those complicated stories. So

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Speaker 3: I was very fortunate that I got to spend some

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Speaker 3: time with Reverend jack to ask him about his relationship

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Speaker 3: with King, and he you know, these guys, they knew

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Speaker 3: King as a person as a friend is somebody who

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Speaker 3: wasn't perfect, who sometimes you know, got impatient with them

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Speaker 3: and Jess exact you know, and had their differences sometimes.

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Speaker 3: It was just fascinating to hear his stories.

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Speaker 1: Well, to me, that's where you try to thread the needle,

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Speaker 1: right is I think that's a lot of what you'd

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Speaker 1: wanted to do with MLK was quote unquote humanize him,

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Speaker 1: and that included maybe putting a lot of stuff in

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Speaker 1: that people said, well, I wish you didn't include it,

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Speaker 1: But I would say the same thing about the debates,

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Speaker 1: the arguments, the disagreements that went on.

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Speaker 2: That to me, that is what makes.

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Speaker 1: The story so rich because to assume that everybody, even

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Speaker 1: in the movement, you know, was on the same page

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Speaker 1: all the time, got along, it doesn't even make any sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And you know, it's it's interesting because one

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Speaker 3: of the things that Jesse Jackson talked about is you no,

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Speaker 3: he came out of real poverty. Jesse, he you know,

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Speaker 3: didn't know his father and grew up very poor, and

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Speaker 3: he's younger than King, and he saw King what he

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Speaker 3: was doing and wanted to get involved. But a lot

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Speaker 3: of the younger activists thought King was too conservative. I

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Speaker 3: thought he was kind of an elitist. And Jesse Jackson,

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Speaker 3: you know, was able to see past that.

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Speaker 1: Give me the based on all the reporting you have done,

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Speaker 1: what brought them together? How did they meet and how

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Speaker 1: did that relationship grow during that era.

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Speaker 3: Well, you've got to remember that when King started getting

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Speaker 3: involved in the Montgomery bus playcott, He's only twenty six

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Speaker 3: years old, and nobody had really given young folks permission

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Speaker 3: to say, you know, you can do this. You can

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Speaker 3: get out in March, you can go and sit in

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Speaker 3: and lunch counters, you can push yourself onto these buses.

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Speaker 3: And that for someone like Jesse Jackson, who was you know,

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Speaker 3: just a college student when he first got involved, that

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Speaker 3: was incredibly exciting. And then to be rubbing elbows with him,

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Speaker 3: to be in the room, and you know, as the

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Speaker 3: movement began to evolve, they began thinking more about economic issues.

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Speaker 3: Jesse Jackson of course found Operation Bread Basket in Chicago.

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Speaker 3: This was you know, him taking the torch from King

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Speaker 3: and seeing what he can do with it. And I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, had King lived, he and Jesse Jackson would

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Speaker 3: have been pursuing a lot of the same things.

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Speaker 1: Where did they agree, where did they occasionally clash, because

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Speaker 1: as you say, their styles were certainly very different at the.

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Speaker 3: Least, well, they certainly agreed that desegregation was the key.

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Speaker 3: And one of the things Jesse Jackson talked to me

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Speaker 3: about a lot is that they weren't looking for integration.

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Speaker 3: They weren't saying you have to let us be in

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Speaker 3: the same classroom. They're just saying, give us the opportunity,

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Speaker 3: just tear down those barriers to entry, and then watch

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Speaker 3: what we can do. And they certainly agreed on that

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Speaker 3: that putting an end to the systemic racism, to the

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Speaker 3: institutionalized barriers to entry, the right to vote, the right

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Speaker 3: to attend schools. Just knock down those walls and watch

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Speaker 3: what we can do. They certainly agreed on that. Now,

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Speaker 3: you know, by the time the late sixties come around,

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Speaker 3: Jesse Jackson is starting to want to be more aggressive.

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Speaker 3: He wants to get more involved in economic affairs, and

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Speaker 3: King is actually going much the same direction. So I

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Speaker 3: think that their disagreements were pretty insignificant, So.

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Speaker 2: You right about this.

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Speaker 1: As I recall, there was, I believe, just several days

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Speaker 1: before the assassination, a March thirty staff meeting that King

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Speaker 1: had with a number of individuals, including Jackson. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I think you quote him as saying that he was

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Speaker 1: wrestling that MLK was wrestling with depression at this point,

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Speaker 1: according to Jesse, and he kind of went off on

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Speaker 1: several of the folks in that staff meeting, including Jesse

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Speaker 1: the age old I guess, question of whether he was

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Speaker 1: too much of a self promoter or wanted to go

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Speaker 1: his own way.

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Speaker 2: What do you remember reporting on that.

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Speaker 3: No, that's absolutely a key moment, and you got to

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Speaker 3: remember the pressure King was under, the FBI surveiling him.

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Speaker 3: Americans are losing patients with him. Sixty six percent of

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Speaker 3: all Americans say they disapprove of Martin Luther King, and

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Speaker 3: they're organizing, they're planning the next big movement, and they're

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Speaker 3: beginning to speak out on economic issues, and and that's

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Speaker 3: even more dangerous. People are really turning on King. And

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Speaker 3: when someone like Jesse Jackson starts, you know, coming into

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Speaker 3: meetings and and complaining about how things are going you know,

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Speaker 3: it wasn't really anything Jesse did. It was it was

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Speaker 3: just that King was his nerves were shot at that

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Speaker 3: point and and he lashed out and had to cool off.

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Speaker 3: But they of course made up, and in fact, on

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Speaker 3: the last night of his life, King went out of

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Speaker 3: his way to make sure Jesse was invited for dinner,

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Speaker 3: and Jesse was there in the parking lot waiting for

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Speaker 3: King to get ready to go after dinner, and then

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Speaker 3: he was assassinated. Jesse was right there and watched the

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Speaker 3: watch the king die. And of course that I think

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Speaker 3: he lived the rest of his life in trying to

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Speaker 3: build the promise that and the respect that King had

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Speaker 3: had lent him.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I think what you wrote the end of

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Speaker 1: the at the invitation you mentioned about dinner joining us

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Speaker 1: for dinner. Jackson at that point was down below and

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Speaker 1: King was up above right, And then eventually obviously he

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Speaker 1: came up onto that second floor balcony as well.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. King was on the balcony and Jackson

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Speaker 3: was in the parking lot, and then after the bullet

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Speaker 3: was fired, Jackson ran up to the balcony.

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Speaker 1: What is you know, there's been some over the years

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Speaker 1: disagreement on debate about whether, in some ways Reverend Jackson

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Speaker 1: exaggerated where he was and how he held on to

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Speaker 1: MLK after the shooting, etc. Did you, I don't remember

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Speaker 1: if you wrote very much about that or have done

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Speaker 1: much reporting on that. What would you say to that discussion?

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Speaker 1: Because it has gone on even or it did go on.

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Speaker 1: I think even within the civil rights community for a while.

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Speaker 3: Right a lot of the civil rights activists people close

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Speaker 3: to King were frustrated with Reverend Jackson because they thought

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Speaker 3: he was being an egotist and self promoting himself and

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Speaker 3: saying that he was holding King when he died, and

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Speaker 3: some people felt like perhaps he had, you know, rubbed

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Speaker 3: King's blood on his shirt and then wore the shirt

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Speaker 3: on TV. And I just didn't think it was very important.

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Speaker 3: You know, we all do things in the moments of

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Speaker 3: trauma and violence that maybe and we all tell stories

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Speaker 3: differently and interpret our memories differently. The important thing is

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Speaker 3: that King was there with Jaxon. They were together in

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Speaker 3: Memphis working on that sanitation work to strike, and Jackson

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Speaker 3: was there when King was assassinated. And if he you know,

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Speaker 3: he certainly had had a large ego all of his

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Speaker 3: life and if he was contradictory complicated person at times,

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Speaker 3: I don't think that is really what we ought to

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Speaker 3: focus on. He devoted his life to the spirit of

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Speaker 3: King's work and the civil rights movement, and that's what

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Speaker 3: we should really focus on.

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Speaker 1: He sought the nineteen eighty four Democratic nomination for president,

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Speaker 1: I think, becoming the first black man to wage a

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Speaker 1: nationwide campaign involving afore a major parties endorsement. Give me

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Speaker 1: your perspective on, you know, the bigger picture, what was

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Speaker 1: maybe starting with that period where he becomes more of

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Speaker 1: a political figure and I think, in fact, what the

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Speaker 1: next time around even one Michigan and there were people

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Speaker 1: even starting to think of him. Could he be a

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Speaker 1: front runner? Give us a sense of perspective on where

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Speaker 1: he fits in there.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, he had to remember this is the

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Speaker 3: mid eighties or in the middle of the Reagan era,

387
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Speaker 3: and the civil rights movement has been sort of broken

388
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Speaker 3: apart after King's assassination and Jesse Jackson's candidacy was very important.

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Speaker 3: It was a moment of real hope and I think

390
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Speaker 3: excitement for a lot of people. And it's what's remembering

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Speaker 3: that he said he got something like seven percent of

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Speaker 3: the white boat in the South. It was a real

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Speaker 3: watershed moment, and it wasn't likely. There was no chance

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Speaker 3: that he was going to win. I remember I was

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Speaker 3: living in Louisiana at the time, and everybody knew that

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Speaker 3: he had no chance to win. But it was still

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Speaker 3: self historic and I think it absolutely was. I think

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Speaker 3: it was the first time we see a lot of

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Speaker 3: white Americans getting used to the idea that this country

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Speaker 3: could handle having a black president. And it certainly paved

401
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Speaker 3: the way not just for Barack Obama, but for a

402
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Speaker 3: lot of black political activists, black political candidates who worked

403
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Speaker 3: on that campaign or even just saw that campaign to

404
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Speaker 3: think about running for office. I think it was absolutely

405
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Speaker 3: an American game changer.

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Speaker 1: Where you know, obviously did a lot of his work

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Speaker 1: in near I was grew up in Gary, Indiana, but

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Speaker 1: obviously grew up in the Chicago area. Where from your

409
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Speaker 1: perspective and again your reporting, what was his strength there,

410
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Speaker 1: what was he successful at doing making that making Chicago

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Speaker 1: kind of his his home base for so long?

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Speaker 3: You know, I think Jesse Jackson was just in the air.

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Speaker 3: He was always there. He showed up, and I can't

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Speaker 3: tell you how important that is. He showed up. I

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Speaker 3: remember when my synagogue was receiving bomb threats one day,

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Speaker 3: he just showed up in the sanctuary unannounced. You know,

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Speaker 3: the rabbi didn't even though he was coming. Reverend Jackson

418
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Speaker 3: just showed up to say, Hey, I'm here for you guys.

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Speaker 3: And that's something that you can't underestimate. All over Chicago

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Speaker 3: for decades, this is a guy who showed up for marches,

421
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Speaker 3: for protests, in defensive workers on strike. It wasn't just

422
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Speaker 3: racial issues. Jesse Jackson was just a great advocate for

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Speaker 3: peace and justice, and he showed up in so many

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Speaker 3: places that I think that everybody in Chicago has a

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Speaker 3: story about Jesse Jackson's showing up.

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Speaker 1: After the assassination, the movement your you know, then the challenges, right,

427
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Speaker 1: who can replace the irreplaceable fragments? Ralph Abernathy emerges. But

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Speaker 1: weren't there some battles too, didn't Jesse have some battles

429
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Speaker 1: in terms of strategy in other ways with Ralph Abernathy.

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Speaker 3: Well, there was a lot of questions about who was

431
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Speaker 3: going to succeed King, who was going to run the SELC,

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Speaker 3: And then I think it just became a question of

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Speaker 3: who was going to be the most prominent leader for

434
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Speaker 3: Black Americans, and it just splintered. There was no way

435
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Speaker 3: to replace Nobody could replace King. And I think it's

436
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Speaker 3: safe to say, you know, some people thought, you know,

437
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,679
Speaker 3: Andrew Young would be the strongest person to either run

438
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 3: the movement or run for president. But Jesse Jackson, you know, again,

439
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 3: sometimes because he had a healthy ego, he clearly emerged

440
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: as the most visible and prominent black leader of his generation.

441
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that has emerged today

442
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: is people try to put together the story. The folks

443
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,680
Speaker 1: have gone back to listen to portions of the speech

444
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 1: that he delivered at the Democratic National Convention in Atlanta.

445
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: I believe in nineteen eighty eight, progress will not come

446
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: through boundless liberalism nor static conservatism, but at the critical

447
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: mass of mutual survival. It takes two wings to fly.

448
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: That's being interpret it today as a remarkably I don't

449
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 1: want to call it centrist, but all inclusive sort of

450
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 1: political argument that doesn't always, you know.

451
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 2: Fly very effectively. Today. Are we looking at that through

452
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 2: the wrong lens?

453
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 1: Or how should we look at at that speech and

454
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 1: some of the things he was saying back in those days.

455
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 3: I think that's absolutely the right lens to look at

456
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 3: it through. And I think it's a lens that Martin

457
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 3: Luther King was also using when he said that the

458
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 3: civil rights movement wasn't out to tear apart America. It

459
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 3: wasn't out simply to promote the welfare and rights of

460
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 3: black people. It was there to make the country better.

461
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 3: It was there to make our union stronger, that we

462
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 3: are a nation that is bound by the inexchecule, inextricable

463
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 3: threads of humanity, that we're all one, and we should

464
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 3: try to act in that way. And I think, you know,

465
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: even Jesse Jackson, who was you know, clearly left wing,

466
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 3: very progressive, even Jesse Jackson was saying that he was

467
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: doing this not to promote one portion of American society.

468
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 3: He believed that we could all do this together. And

469
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: I think that's the spirit that we don't hear much today.

470
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: No, that's true.

471
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: One last item, Jonathan, for today my recollection is and

472
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if we've ever talked about this before,

473
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: but I thought I was it triggered in my head

474
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: that you ended up spending a lot of time the

475
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: Lorraine Motel as you're putting together the biography on King, Is.

476
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 2: That correct a little bit.

477
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: I certainly visited a couple of times.

478
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: What stands out or what stood out to you at

479
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: that time or when you did make those us.

480
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 3: When you go through the Civil Rights Museum there in

481
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 3: Memphis at the Lorraine Motel, and you take the whole

482
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 3: tour and you understand the history of the movement, and

483
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 3: then the land of the tour, you find yourself staring

484
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 3: into the room where King was staying on the last

485
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 3: night of his life. It's this incredibly powerful experience, and

486
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 3: I think just to tie it back to Reverend Jackson

487
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 3: to think about the question of, you know, whether he

488
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 3: held Kings in his arms as he died or not,

489
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 3: or whether he used the opportunity to promote himself. It

490
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 3: really doesn't matter. He was there at one of the

491
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 3: most devastating moments in his lifetime and to see his

492
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 3: friend and his hero die right in front of him

493
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: was clearly something that had to have been incredibly traumatic,

494
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: and to his credit, he used it as inspiration for

495
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 3: the work that he did the rest of his life.

496
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: It struck me, and of course this obviously starts with King,

497
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 1: but many of the others who worked with him. Just

498
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: the enormous pressure at incredibly young ages, right, we think

499
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: of you know, we always think of a lot on there.

500
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: Everybody's in their fifty sixty seventies when they had the

501
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: world on the burden, the world's burden on their shoulders.

502
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: These folks were very young and pretty much every day,

503
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: right there's a crisis, or every day is we got

504
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: to go here or you're asked to be going there,

505
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: just the day to day. I guess I'm not surprised

506
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: to hear that. Jesse Jackson said that, among other things,

507
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: as you well know that MLK was battling depression, it

508
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: would be hard not to, would it, not.

509
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 3: No question about it. You know, they weren't trained for this.

510
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 3: They threw themselves into it because they believed in something

511
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 3: bigger than themselves, and they sacrificed for it. You know,

512
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,439
Speaker 3: King was twenty six when he became the leader of

513
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: the Montgomery buzz Bloycott. Jesse Jackson was just a teenager

514
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,360
Speaker 3: when he started getting involved. So these are people who were,

515
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: you know, fueled by their youthful passion, but somehow, you know,

516
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 3: maintained that passion all their lives. And that's that's a

517
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 3: remarkable thing.

518
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: I really appreciate the time on a busy day. Do

519
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: you is there a next project we can talk about

520
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: or anticipate or are you sort of like taking some

521
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: time off or where.

522
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: Where are you at?

523
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 3: No? I never take the time off. I'm off. I'm

524
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 3: onto the next project. It's going to be very different.

525
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 3: It's a biography of George Soros. WO be happy to

526
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: talk to you when it gets a little closer.

527
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: That sounds good. We appreciate again the time. Good to

528
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: catch up. Hope you're doing well.

529
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 3: Thank you taking us.

530
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: Jonathan I, Pulitzer Prize winning writer, kind enough to join us,

531
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: and he has never written a biography of Jesse Jackson,

532
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: but he has written one on MLK. Jesse is in

533
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: it in several places. There were two guys that came

534
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: to mind for me today. Both have been guests on

535
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: this program. One is the guy we just had Jonathan I,

536
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: and the other is Taylor Branch, who wrote I still

537
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: think regarding the entire civil rights movement, the Definitive Trilogy,

538
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: and we've not had him on in a long time,

539
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: but he's been a great guest for us on The

540
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: King and the Movement over the years and Jonathan, like

541
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: I said, I mean, there's been a lot of MLK

542
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: biographies written. The one he wrote, I think it landed

543
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: about now, I want to say, three years ago, twenty

544
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: twenty three or so is now considered the definitive piece.

545
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: And that's pretty got to be guards.

546
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: He pretty heady when you've got you know, leaders like

547
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 1: and Andy Young and Jesse Jackson while you're researching your

548
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 1: ALI book, saying hey, you know what this, take a

549
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: look at this because as much has been written on King,

550
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: we need we need somebody to kind of put it

551
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: all in perspective that would it'd be hard for that

552
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 1: not to go to my head, right, And to his credit,

553
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: he said okay, and then worked on it for a

554
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,479
Speaker 1: long I think several years to put the thing together

555
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: as well. Brancheaw and Brian Caffein in text line is

556
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: open at six four six eight six, And we've talked

557
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: about this part before. What I mentioned late in the discussion,

558
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: the I don't even I guess it's unfair to expect

559
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: that people today could begin to appreciate the burden day

560
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: to day that King and his associates lived with, right,

561
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: I mean day after day after day, you know, not like, ah,

562
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: we're you know, we're doing some demonstrating and then you

563
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: know we're gonna do We're gonna go on vacation for

564
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: about three months. We're gonna go you know, we're just

565
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: gonna just get away from it all. There was no

566
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: getting away from it all. And they're all young, they're

567
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: all in their teen's, twenties, thirties as this thing is

568
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: playing out, and you know, the the inside not on

569
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: an inside joke, but the challenge with MLK was every

570
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: day there were like fifteen requests come to our city.

571
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: Here's our crisis, here's why we need you.

572
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: A riot taking place in Los Angeles, We need you

573
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: there to try to quell things, to try to calm

574
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 1: things down, et cetera.

575
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: That was the that was the daily life that he led.

576
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: And it was in that tradition that Jesse Jackson was

577
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: brought up nowhere near as monumental a name. I don't think,

578
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: no question about that. But he was a part of

579
00:30:52,880 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: that group that the King, you know, relied on. And sometimes,

580
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: as we talked about, Jonathan brawled with you know, debated, argued,

581
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: disagreed because and this is where Jesse kind of hurt

582
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: himself sometimes I think where the perception was he was

583
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: a little too slick, right, everything is a little bit

584
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: too programmed and at times maybe a little bit more performative.

585
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: On the other hand, he did a lot of incredible

586
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: work for a long period of time, went through his

587
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: own ups and downs, his own controversies, a couple of

588
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: things antisemitic things that he said that got him in

589
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: trouble in New York, New York. So in the end,

590
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: there's flaws in pretty much anybody who's involved in any

591
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: of these sorts of movements. But nevertheless, a name who

592
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: definitely deserves a lot of discussion and recognition today, for sure.

593
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: And that's not glossing over some of the weaknesses, some

594
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 1: of the challenges, some of the difficulties, but nevertheless a

595
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: huge name. And he was he eighty four, I think

596
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: that was the and I have not seen him in

597
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: public in a while. I don't know how much has

598
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: been written about what kind of health he'd been in

599
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: most recently, but.

600
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: I do know that.

601
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: The legacy is huge and the influence he had was significant.

602
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 1: Let's do this, Let's get a pause in here. You

603
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: know what I liked about what I said. The big

604
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: thing I took. Yes, I think everybody could take how

605
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: he talked about the Chicago roots and how he just

606
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't have the whole quote of what he said,

607
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: but it struck me when he just said, well, he'd

608
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: showed up. Yes, he was involved, not always when cameras

609
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: were on and not always when there was going to

610
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: be attention, but he just would pop in places and

611
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: was like, that's pretty cool. Yeah, like where he thought

612
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: they needed help or someone told him they needed help,

613
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: or something was going on. He mentioned his synagogue had

614
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: bomb threats and Jesse Jackson just pulled up one day,

615
00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: didn't tell anybody and just pulled up to show us.

616
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: I think that's a pretty cool, that's pretty cool way

617
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: to put it. It ends up, it ends up being

618
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: a really significant part of the of the job. Then

619
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: it really was showing up. And sometimes I'm not gonna lie.

620
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: There were stretches in his career.

621
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: Where it did look like he was showing up in

622
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: places where he made sure the cameras were But there

623
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: were many chapters to the to the Jackson career, I think,

624
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: and a lot of times that's really how you are successful,

625
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: is that you show up when you're not expected or

626
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: when there's not a lot of fanfare to to go

627
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: with it. And again when it comes to the economics

628
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: of it, and uh his operator his uh he his

629
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 1: organization was pushed out of Chicago Operation bread Basket. A

630
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: lot of that was again very economic in nature, attempting

631
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: to help people on those sorts of grassroots level. And

632
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: I think over a period of time, I think as

633
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: he matured, he got to a better place. It is

634
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: interesting to be struck also, like I said, by the

635
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: message that he laid out in nineteen eighty what I

636
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: say nineteen eighty eight at the Democrat National Convention in Atlanta,

637
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: Because if you go a little deeper, and that speech

638
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: is available online pretty easily, you can get the whole speech.

639
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,840
Speaker 1: It comes off as a not a far left progress

640
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, big time progressive message at all. And there's

641
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: parts of it or I say, I wonder how many

642
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: progressives today would be willing to endorse and even repeat

643
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: that same sort of message. Very different time, obviously, but

644
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: it is interesting to look back on it for that reason.

645
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: Let's pause here and we'll get caught up. As I said,

646
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 1: we've got Leavell Emergency. LEVELL is scheduled for four thirty today.

647
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: We've got Louis at five thirty as well. Branch On

648
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: Brian Kfin text line has indeed been rebooted for the

649
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: start of the show. You updated on some winter Olympic

650
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 1: stuff as well. Six four six eight six back in

651
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: just a minute. Any update on the cheating scandal in curling?

652
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: Things quiet on the relative A little bit more quiet

653
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: on the curling front today or is it still red hot?

654
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: I think it's I think it's calm. I don't know though,

655
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 2: all right.

656
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,800
Speaker 1: Anybody else knows hit the bratch around Bryant Kfe and

657
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: text line six four six haven't got any Google or six. Yeah,

658
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: we probably would have because that, you know, we want

659
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: the controversy, we want the negativity.

660
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: It's like all the columists please.

661
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: Discuss Jesse Jackson's outstanding oratory skills. It was one of

662
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: his strengths. I mean to me, there's nobody quite like

663
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: him LKA, but he could he could belt out a speech.

664
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there's not any question in fact, somebody had it.

665
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 2: But I didn't save it. Did he make a famous appearance?

666
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: He being Jesse Jackson, either hosting Sertay Night Live or

667
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 1: just as a as a guest on Saturday Night Live,

668
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: Green Eggs and Half on Weekend Update. I think that's

669
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: what it was. We should play that later. That is

670
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: absolutely just deadpanned it too. He just nailed it. That's tremendous. Yeah,

671
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: that's what it was. That we should probably play that.

672
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 1: I am reminded looking back through some of the stuff

673
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: that's been offered up today that in twenty twenty three,

674
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson resigned as president of the Rainbow Push Coalition.

675
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 1: His degenerative disorder was eventually diagnosed not as Parkinson's, because

676
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen he announced he had Parkinson's disease and

677
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: planned to remain as active as long as possible. I

678
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: steadfastly affirm that I would rather wear out than rust out.

679
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: And well, of course, as Neil Young always said, Russ

680
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: never sleeps. A long time ago, he said that, much

681
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 1: to the chagrin of John Lennon, who disagreed with them.

682
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 2: More on that later.

683
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, as I said, Jesse Jackson resigned

684
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 1: as president of his Rainbow Push Coalition, and eventually his

685
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,479
Speaker 1: degenerative disorder was diagnosed not as Parkinson's but something called

686
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: progressive super nuclear.

687
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,400
Speaker 2: Palsy, which I'm not familiar with.

688
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: In late twenty twenty five, so just last you know,

689
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: late last year, he was hospitalized in Chicago, and the

690
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: Rainbow Push coalition said that quote, the family appreciates all

691
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: prayers at this time.

692
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: So that was I guess.

693
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: The the unfortunate health spiral that he was on that

694
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: led to this news breaking earlier today. Jackson, as you say,

695
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,399
Speaker 1: nowhere near the importance of MLK and the civil rights movement.

696
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 2: I agree.

697
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: But to me, given his visibility over the decades as

698
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: the perhaps last vestiges of that era, makes him as

699
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: important as king in the fight for equality since Memphis.

700
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: It's a fair point that he his connection with the movement.

701
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: He you know, again, look up the age of MLK

702
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: when he was murdered. I want to say he was early.

703
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: I want to say it was either like thirty four

704
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: years old. He was definitely in his thirties, thirty nine

705
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: years old, Okay, fair enough.

706
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: And you know.

707
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: There were other civil rights leaders murdered who didn't get

708
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,920
Speaker 1: a chance to grow old, and so there is something

709
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: to that that Jackson's importance was his was his linkage

710
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,800
Speaker 1: to the heart of that movement going into the sixties

711
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 1: and certainly the late late sixties for sure. Is that

712
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 1: any question about that? And you know he ended up

713
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: and he also crossed over because as we talked about

714
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: with Jonathan I, he crossed over into politics and became

715
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: a legitimate presidential candidate. Now did he ever have much

716
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 1: chance of winning, Probably not so much. But he opened

717
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: the door a bit that it wasn't so irrational to

718
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: think that this could possibly that a black man could

719
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: actually run for office and have either a national appeal

720
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: or even a national following.

721
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: And that was part of his legacy. And how did

722
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: he do that?

723
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 1: Because he stayed alive and he stayed around a long time.

724
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: But he is a link to exactly that. It's a

725
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 2: very fair point. We want green eggs in ham Oh

726
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: you got it now? Yeah, let's do it.

727
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: Kevin Neelan's gonna throw it to you. This from the

728
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: Reverend Jesse Jackson Instagram And this is do we know

729
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: what year he would have done this? It had to

730
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: be mid nineties nineties. The Weekend Update hosts Hi fair enough.

731
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 4: Reader that doctor Seuss died this week at the age

732
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 4: of eighty seven. Like many of us, I grew up

733
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 4: with doctor Seuss and one of my favorite star worries.

734
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 4: It's green eggs and ham Here to read from this classic,

735
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 4: it's the Reverend Jesse Jackson.

736
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: Tonight.

737
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 5: Rather than read from first and second Samuel, I read

738
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 5: from Sam, I am accord to the latter day Saint SEUs.

739
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 6: You do not like green eggs and ham. I do

740
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 6: not like them, Sam i am. I could not would

741
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 6: not on a boat.

742
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 5: I will not will not with a goat.

743
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 6: I will not eat them in the rain.

744
00:40:58,200 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 2: I will not eat them on a.

745
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 6: Train, not than a dog, not on a tree, not

746
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 6: in the car. You let me be. I do not

747
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 6: like them in a box. I do not like them

748
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 6: with a box. I do not eat them in a house.

749
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,719
Speaker 6: I do not like them with a mouth. I do

750
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 6: not like them here are there? I do not like

751
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 6: them anywhere. I do not like green eggs and hams.

752
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 6: I do not like them, Sam i am. You do

753
00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,799
Speaker 6: not like them. So you say, try them, and you

754
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 6: may try them, And you may, I say, Sam, if

755
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 6: you will let me be, I will try them.

756
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 2: You will see.

757
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 6: Say i'd like green eggs and ham.

758
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: I do I'd like.

759
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 6: Them, Sam i am, And I would eat them in

760
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 6: a boat, and I would eat them with a goat.

761
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 2: I do so like.

762
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 6: Green eggs and ham. Thank you, thank you, Sam.

763
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: I am so to six' five one guy who asked

764
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: earlier for us to Discuss jesse's outstanding oratory. Skills what

765
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 1: better example not doing a speech not on the, stump

766
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: but offering up on LIVE tv green eggs and ham

767
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 1: and making it sound, profound making it sound, mythic making

768
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,840
Speaker 1: it sound like something that's very. Significant was indeed at at,

769
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: stake that's pretty. Good he ripped his glasses off half

770
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,760
Speaker 1: way through. Stuff, yeah very. Good he had a famous

771
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: thing On Sesame street as. Well that's been making the.

772
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 2: Round, Yes i've seen that one.

773
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 1: Too that's the im somebody one, Right and then he

774
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: repeats over a number of times in front of a

775
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: group of a fairly large group of.

776
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 2: Kids for.

777
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: Sure this is from six to one two. Guy my

778
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: father passed away FROM psp in twenty. Seventeen it's A

779
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: parkinson's like disease that impacts mobility and also has some cognitive,

780
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: impact and it can eventually lead to near total. Paralysis

781
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: we felt, blessed, ironically of, course that my dad died

782
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: before it progressed at that point like you had not

783
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 1: heard of it before, before heard of this.

784
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 2: Before my dad was.

785
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: Diagnosed by the, Way Linda ronstadt also has this same CONDITION,

786
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: psp and we've had a number of people AND psp

787
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 1: stands For progressive super nuclear, palsy and Another texter says

788
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: that his father in law had, it but it was

789
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 1: also misdiagnosed As parkinson's, originally and that's apparently What jesse

790
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: first announced to reveal that he thought he, had and

791
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: maybe at that point that's what the doctors thought he

792
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: had as. Well guests line up the rest of the,

793
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: way and we'll come back To oh to A Dead

794
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: guy And Jesse jackson before this show has, Done i'm

795
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 1: sure once or. Twice in, addition we've Got louis scheduled

796
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,319
Speaker 1: for five point Thirty Tuesday regular and we are going

797
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: to a little emergency level for all the obvious. Reasons

798
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: the news not good for Your Minnesota. Twins looks like

799
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 1: The Pablo lopez season is over before it has even.

800
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 1: Begun the results come in and they're pretty, grim so

801
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,399
Speaker 1: it looks like it's going to be Another Tommy john

802
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: surgery For pablo will GET i don't Think lovel's down

803
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: there YET i think he's going he's heading down, there

804
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 1: but he's not down there. Yet but we'll get his

805
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: view on the cosmic significance of it. All and it

806
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: IS i think a fair question to, ask whatever plan

807
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: The twins think they have under this new, regime might

808
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 1: they be better served altering it and trading everybody?

809
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 2: Away you?

810
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: Know AND i hate that. Thinking we all hate it

811
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,879
Speaker 1: because of what we're dealing with. Here But i'll ask,

812
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: again to, me it's almost a distinction without a difference

813
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: at this point if you're down sixty five million over

814
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: the last two, seasons right? RIGHT i Know Tom pollack keeps, saying,

815
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: well it's ridiculous that the over under for us is

816
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: seventy three and a. Half we're gonna be better than you,

817
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: Think but where are we really? Going and so if

818
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: you're not really going, anywhere and you've, decided as sad

819
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 1: as it, is that you're gonna continue to cut payroll

820
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: with allegedly this plan later where we're gonna start bringing

821
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: the money back, in would you better be better served

822
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: stripping it down if you get really good offers for

823
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: A buxton or for you, KNOW i Guess Joe, ryan,

824
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: RIGHT i mean at this, Point what's who are we?

825
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: Kidding so are you advocating for responsible? Tanking?

826
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 1: Yeah WELL i, guess, YEAH i, Guess but in this,

827
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: way they can't really even call it. Tanking if you

828
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: trade away those best, players if you have them and

829
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 1: then don't use, them that would be a responsible, tanking,

830
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 1: right if you're trading them away and then, well this

831
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: is what we got. Left we're just putting the people

832
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: out there that we that we have. Left we're gonna

833
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: throw them out. There speaking of people back by the,

834
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: way throwing people back out. There Mike conley is officially

835
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: back with our favorite basketball. Team we knew it was, Coming,

836
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 1: YEAH i guess today was the last take the last.

837
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: Day, yeah they had to get to fourteen.

838
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 1: Today they still have room to add one more to

839
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 1: get the, fifteen one of those buyout guys that might

840
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: still be. Available but The conley move is. Official we're

841
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: hoping to get him back. SOON i hope maybe even

842
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: later this, week Because i'd love to hear the. Saga

843
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: you know what this this whole thing's been like for

844
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: him to be in this sort of nether, world even

845
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: though he probably had been communicated with and knew that

846
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: The wolves intended to bring him. Back it's still the

847
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: whole process had to be a little bit surreal to.

848
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: Him you, know you're with the, team then you're gone

849
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: from the team and you're traded.

850
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: Twice rudy's looking for you on the. Bus you're not

851
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: there on the.

852
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: Bus he's talking to a to a to, a you,

853
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 1: know to an empty seat on the, bus Like Clint

854
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: eastwood exactly. It so hopefully at some point this week

855
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 1: we get a little Bonus Mike conley as Well state