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Speaker 1: Y'all are FACEDRC.

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Speaker 2: Tonight while using the recent pass to chase returns could

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Speaker 2: be a dangerous proposition. You're listening to Simply Money, presented

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Speaker 2: by all Worth Financial on Bob Sponseller along with Brian James.

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Speaker 2: Last week, we told you that the bullmarket we're in

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Speaker 2: hit its three year anniversary this month. And if you're periodically,

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Speaker 2: you know, watching your net worth and watching it grow

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Speaker 2: and grow, maybe you've got lots of peace of mind

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Speaker 2: right now, and hopefully for good reason. If we could

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Speaker 2: end the year right now, right now today, this would

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Speaker 2: be a very rare occurrence. If the S and P

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Speaker 2: five hundred were to finish the year with double digit games,

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Speaker 2: it would mark only the eleventh time we've experienced double

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Speaker 2: digit gains three years in a row in the last

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Speaker 2: one hundred years.

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Speaker 3: Brian, I'm sorry, so we've had a heck of a

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Speaker 3: run here since twenty twenty two. That was the last

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Speaker 3: time that people really had a good, solid panic that

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Speaker 3: lasted a long time, little bumpy earlier this April, but

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Speaker 3: that kind of came and went relatively clickly.

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Speaker 1: Twenty two was no fun.

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Speaker 3: We started down from day one and then we bottomed

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Speaker 3: out just before Halloween in October and.

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Speaker 1: Then it's been kind of off to the races ever since.

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Speaker 3: So hopefully you are someone listening to us who didn't

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Speaker 3: panic and stayed invested and just kind of shrugged your

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Speaker 3: shoulders and said, this is no fun. This thinks I

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Speaker 3: hate it, but I've seen it before, and now this

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Speaker 3: game works well. The game worked again. So if the

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Speaker 3: SMP ends up twenty percent or more this year, it

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Speaker 3: would only mark the second time of gains for twenty

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Speaker 3: percent or more for three consecutive years. The only other

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Speaker 3: time that happened was the late nineties. That was the

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Speaker 3: original Internet bubble, in the original technology wave there. So

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Speaker 3: in twenty three and twenty four puts some numbers to this,

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Speaker 3: S and P was up twenty four percent and twenty

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Speaker 3: three percent around this time. In twenty twenty three, it

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Speaker 3: was only up by twelve percent for the year, meaning

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Speaker 3: in the in the that final stretch run of the

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Speaker 3: year that we got an enormous a rate of return

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty three to finish out the year. So

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Speaker 3: don't count out twenty twenty five just yet. We may

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Speaker 3: get to that twenty percent number.

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Speaker 2: Who knows, all right, Brian, these numbers can't stay this

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Speaker 2: high forever, right, I mean, the long term average return

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Speaker 2: of the S and P five hundred is somewhere around

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Speaker 2: ten percent annually.

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Speaker 4: We've been doing so much better than that.

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Speaker 2: We've got to get a reversion to the means sometime

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Speaker 2: very soon, right, I mean, I'm sure people are out

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Speaker 2: there thinking that. So walk us through what not to do.

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Speaker 2: If you're thinking and feeling those kind of things right now.

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Speaker 3: Well, don't think that there is a there's a roadmap

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Speaker 3: that says if a happens, then do B.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't work that way. The market does not cooperate.

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Speaker 4: As such.

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Speaker 3: It's easy to look at these numbers and just declare that, hey,

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Speaker 3: this is just a spreadsheet, it's just math. Investing is way, way,

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Speaker 3: way more art than science, despite the presence of numbers

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Speaker 3: to make us think otherwise.

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Speaker 1: So what should we not do?

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Speaker 4: Well?

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Speaker 3: Something we talk about all the time, BOB, is recency

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Speaker 3: bias that can trigu you into thinking that those double

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Speaker 3: digit returns are the new normal. This happens if you're

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Speaker 3: looking at your four oh one K, for example, and

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Speaker 3: you're picking investments, and you go, you don't really know

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Speaker 3: what I'm doing, but this one, this fund sure did

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Speaker 3: do well last year.

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Speaker 4: I'll just choose that.

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Speaker 3: That's like assuming that the same team that won the

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Speaker 3: Super Bowl of the World Series last year is going

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Speaker 3: to do it again.

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Speaker 4: It just never works that way. Those those those repeats

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Speaker 4: are just not the norm. Does that mean the Reds

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Speaker 4: might win a World Series sometimes?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's one that I think is a little more,

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Speaker 3: a little more reliable, the fact that the red Let's

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Speaker 3: go this way, the fact that the Reds didn't win

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Speaker 3: the World Series this year is indicative of the fact

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Speaker 3: that they probably won't next year either, So that it

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Speaker 3: does go.

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Speaker 1: Recency bias does work in some ways anyway.

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Speaker 2: No, you make you make a good point because people

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Speaker 2: especially looking at four oh one K options and all

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Speaker 2: that that's just the natural tendency. You look at what's

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Speaker 2: returned really high the last few years and you overallocate

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Speaker 2: to those options, and that can be you know, that

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Speaker 2: can cause some problems.

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Speaker 3: Correct, and that's not the right way to do it,

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Speaker 3: right That that's indicative of not knowing how to build

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Speaker 3: a portfolio or not understanding acid allocation and risk.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's one thing to say I just want

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Speaker 3: to be super aggressive, but one thing you might be

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Speaker 3: doing right now. If you've done that is a lot

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Speaker 3: of people are sitting on just the S and P

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Speaker 3: five hundred. I sat down with a prospective client yesterday

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Speaker 3: who has on her stock portfolio is nothing but the

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Speaker 3: S and P five hundred, and that's okay, except that

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Speaker 3: she's leaving a lot on the table. That means there's

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Speaker 3: no mid cap stocks, no small caps for those the

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Speaker 3: go go markets, there are no international stocks. International stocks

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Speaker 3: right now Bob are up thirty percent for the year.

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Speaker 3: But if you're somebody who's subscribed to the I don't

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Speaker 3: need anything but the US, you're missing out on that.

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Speaker 3: You're leaving return on the table. So understand the components

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Speaker 3: of a portfolio and don't assume that I just need

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Speaker 3: to have one of these things. And you need to

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Speaker 3: make sure you understand the different waitings of the various

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Speaker 3: holdings you might have in there.

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Speaker 2: All right, here's another thing not to do is make

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Speaker 2: decisions based on headline news. Fears of a market correction

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Speaker 2: are always out there, and let's face it, there's always

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Speaker 2: uncertainty out there in the world. Shoot, we're in the

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Speaker 2: middle of earning season, we're in the middle of a

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Speaker 2: government shut down. Have you know, ongoing negotiations on tariffs

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Speaker 2: and deal dealings with China. I mean, there's umpty different

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Speaker 2: stories you can hear every day which would cause you

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Speaker 2: to conclude, Man, I just need to get out of

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Speaker 2: this market, sell everything, and sit you know.

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Speaker 4: In cash. That's kind of the opposite, you know.

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Speaker 2: Reaction to what we just talked about, in terms of

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Speaker 2: recency bias. Just think fear, you know, have you not

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Speaker 2: participate in the market whatsoever?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: And remember headlines were scary a year ago.

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Speaker 3: If you don't believe me, go back and google headlines

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Speaker 3: from October twenty third, twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Go see if you find anything to be positive about.

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Speaker 3: Had you reacted to that, you could we could have

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Speaker 3: told the same story exactly a year ago, scary headlines

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Speaker 3: and at that time the market had been up twenty

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Speaker 3: plus percent two years in a row, and that this

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Speaker 3: would be the exact same story. Had you reacted to

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Speaker 3: that and said, oh, it's a bubble, we got to

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Speaker 3: back off, We got to take some risk off the table.

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Speaker 3: What you would have given up so far what has

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Speaker 3: been a fifteen percent return in twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 1: So don't fall victim to that.

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Speaker 2: Another thing not to do is overreact to volatility, because

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Speaker 2: it's not a matter of if it's when we get

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Speaker 2: some volatility in the market. As a reminder, on average,

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Speaker 2: the market corrects, you know, roughly thirteen fourteen percent a

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Speaker 2: year every year on average. So right now, Brian, if

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Speaker 2: the market were to go down three four, five six percent,

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Speaker 2: the headlines I the headlines would be enormous.

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Speaker 4: They would strike fear.

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Speaker 2: People would be thinking that we're going to have a

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Speaker 2: great depression, when in fact it's normal. Volatility is normal,

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Speaker 2: so it's not sell everything. You know, to your point,

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Speaker 2: now is a great time when the market's up to

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Speaker 2: rebalance and have a responsible review of your portfolio, to

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Speaker 2: just reset your asset allocation to where it needs to

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Speaker 2: be per your financial plan if you have one, and

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Speaker 2: your proper risk tolerance level.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a great point and another thing to

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Speaker 3: think about it, as we talk about frequently, this is

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Speaker 3: the time to do those things that you always got it.

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Speaker 4: You know, if I have money, I'll do that one day.

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Speaker 3: When I have this money, I want to support this charity,

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Speaker 3: or I want to do something for my kids, or

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Speaker 3: I want to do this that or the other.

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Speaker 1: Well, guess what you got the money.

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Speaker 3: Now with a with an eighty seven percent return since

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Speaker 3: October of twenty two. If you stayed invested, then you

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Speaker 3: should have a lot more money than you've ever had

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Speaker 3: in your life. If you are concerned, if you find

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Speaker 3: yourself being worried about the portfolio or worried about the

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Speaker 3: markets or whatever, take some of this a windfall type

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Speaker 3: money that the market has given you and do those things.

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Speaker 3: If your plan worked on the assumption of you could

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Speaker 3: have done it three years ago, well now you've got

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Speaker 3: even more money, So take a look at that. Also,

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Speaker 3: look at your concentrated stock positions for example, you may

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Speaker 3: still have you may have too much in any of

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Speaker 3: these things. There are a lot of places, and when

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Speaker 3: the market has gone on a huge run like this,

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Speaker 3: you might have a position or two in there that

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Speaker 3: has gotten a lot big than you ever wanted it.

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Speaker 3: And it looks great right now because it's giving you

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Speaker 3: a gigantic dollar amount on your statements. But at the

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Speaker 3: same time, remember that one company, that one holding can

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Speaker 3: take a hit. The market doesn't tend to like to

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Speaker 3: cooperate on things like that, and then that's going to

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Speaker 3: drag you your numbers down as you are. Now you're

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Speaker 3: going to be kicking yourself because you didn't take the

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Speaker 3: money while it was on the table.

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Speaker 2: Another thing to do, perhaps between now and the end

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Speaker 2: of the year, is if you have some of these

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Speaker 2: lump some expenditures coming up, let's say a bathroom remodel

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Speaker 2: or a new vehicle purchase or something like that, where

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Speaker 2: you're going to need a lump some amount of cash,

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Speaker 2: now's the time, you know, in a tax efficient manner,

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Speaker 2: to maybe trim some of these gains and put that

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Speaker 2: money to the side, rather than just leave it to

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Speaker 2: chance and pull the money out, you know, the week

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Speaker 2: before you need it if the market's down. Case in point,

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Speaker 2: I had a review meeting with a client last week.

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Speaker 2: We ran some we did some in depth tax analysis,

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Speaker 2: and bottom line, they are planning some home remodeling in

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Speaker 2: the first quarter of twenty twenty six. We were able

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Speaker 2: to pull six thousand dollars out of their IRA now

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Speaker 2: and Brian, we were able to do that at a

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Speaker 2: zero percent tax rate.

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Speaker 4: And it was all because we had a discussion about it.

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Speaker 2: I knew what their plans were for next year, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, look, let's pull some of this money.

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Speaker 2: Out now while we can pay no taxes, sell at

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Speaker 2: a market high, and they love the idea and we

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Speaker 2: executed it on it.

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Speaker 4: I mean six thousand. There is a lot of money,

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Speaker 4: but it's not the point though. It's it's the you

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Speaker 4: don't want to pay thirty taxes on it.

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Speaker 1: Right, It's the window of time that you help them identify.

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Speaker 3: Look, this is no, this is not a huge amount

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Speaker 3: of money, but if we take it out next year,

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Speaker 3: you're gonna have to. We're gonna have to take out seven.

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Speaker 3: So you can give the irs a thousand and you'll

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Speaker 3: keep your six.

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Speaker 4: But this year you're in a.

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Speaker 3: Window where you are your your income is lower than

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Speaker 3: it's been in years. And this isn't this is a

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Speaker 3: temporary situation. A lot of people go through this uh

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Speaker 3: as shortly after retirement, where the salaries are gone. Maybe

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Speaker 3: you're living off of your savings, or you're spending down

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Speaker 3: assets you already have, which you know, which generally isn't

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Speaker 3: a taxable situation. If you're using money that's sitting in

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Speaker 3: the bank spending down cash, uh then that's a year

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Speaker 3: where you have a zero percent bracket. That literally does

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Speaker 3: happen to people that is not a time to spike

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Speaker 3: the football. If you don't take advantage of it and

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Speaker 3: perform proactively some taxable transactions, then you're missing an opportunity.

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Speaker 3: So what I'm getting at is do the things that

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Speaker 3: you know are going to be pricey tax wise, do

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Speaker 3: them in the best time to do it. And that

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Speaker 3: would be roth conversions or as you mentioned, Bob, if

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Speaker 3: we need to take a good chunk out of an

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Speaker 3: I or if we wanted to do do that in

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Speaker 3: these years.

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Speaker 4: Even if the.

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Speaker 3: Bill's not gonna come due until next year, you might

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Speaker 3: not be doing the thing until twenty twenty six. Well

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Speaker 3: carve out the cash now in a better tax window

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Speaker 3: and sit on it, take it in the money market,

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Speaker 3: let it spit out a little bit of interest until

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Speaker 3: that bill comes due next year. But all you're doing

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Speaker 3: is you're adjusting your timeframes. You are time shifting your

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Speaker 3: IRA distributions.

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Speaker 2: One last thing we want to cover here is perhaps

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Speaker 2: if you're charitably inclined and you do regular charitable giving,

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Speaker 2: accelerate some charitable giving now between now and the end

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Speaker 2: of the year. And Brian, you talk about this strategy

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Speaker 2: all the time. You know we both love to use

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Speaker 2: donor advise funds. But you talk about bundling, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe two three years worth of charitable giving using some

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Speaker 2: appreciated stock positions, because let's face it, the standard you know,

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Speaker 2: deduction amount is up now, you know, at a high

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Speaker 2: level where a lot of people can't even take advantage

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Speaker 2: from a deduction standpoint on their charitable giving. Well, using

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Speaker 2: some appreciated positions and bundling, you know, two to three

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Speaker 2: years worth of giving might accomplish, you know, moving over

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Speaker 2: that standard deduction throat, and even if it doesn't, you're

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Speaker 2: one hundred percent avoiding the capital gains taxes at a

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Speaker 2: market high on these appreciated positions. That's another thing to

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Speaker 2: really take a look at between perhaps now in.

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Speaker 1: The end of the year, absolutely and one of the

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Speaker 1: to clarify there.

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Speaker 3: So what we're talking about there is if you're in

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Speaker 3: a situation where you're in a higher bracket, I would

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Speaker 3: not want to do a donor advice fund any year

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Speaker 3: where I'm already in a low bracket because you've got

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Speaker 3: nothing to deduct against. But no, but it's a great

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Speaker 3: point for those people in the opposite side of things.

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Speaker 3: So if you maybe this is a big year where

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Speaker 3: you know you sold a business, or maybe you've inherited

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Speaker 3: a sizable IRA or something and it's spitting out taxable

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Speaker 3: distributions where you can carve out some of that money.

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Speaker 3: All you're doing is you're benefiting a charity that you

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Speaker 3: probably already were anyway. This is not a quick you know,

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Speaker 3: check this box and get a deduction. This is if

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Speaker 3: you're already donating money, do it in a different manner.

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Speaker 3: Pull several years into one year and take that deduction

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Speaker 3: this year, and you'll probably be better off in the long run.

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Speaker 2: Here's the all Worth advice after a historic market run,

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Speaker 2: don't just ride the wave, use it, rebalance harvest games

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Speaker 2: and do some strategic planning while the market is high.

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Speaker 2: Coming up next, what is what if your four toh

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Speaker 2: one K could guarantee a paycheck for life? Next we're

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Speaker 2: digging into whether annuities should be the default position in

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Speaker 2: defined contribution plans. You're listening to Simply Money, presented by

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Speaker 2: all Worth Financial on fifty five KRC the talk station,

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Speaker 2: breaking story coming out of City Hall today.

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Speaker 4: Use you need it.

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Speaker 5: What I was hearing locally nationally everywhere in between fifty

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Speaker 5: five KRCD.

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Speaker 6: Station Allworth Financial, a registered investment advisory firm. Any ideas

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Speaker 6: presented during this program are not intended to provide specific

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Speaker 6: financial advice. You should consult your own financial advisor, tax consultant,

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Speaker 6: or a state planning attorney to conduct your own due diligence.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Simply Money, present up by all Worth

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Speaker 2: Financial on Bob Sponseller along with Brian James. If you

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Speaker 2: can't listen to Simply Money every night, subscribing get our

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Speaker 2: daily podcasts. And if you think your friends or family

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Speaker 2: or neighbors could use some financial advice, tell them.

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Speaker 4: About us as well.

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Speaker 2: Just search Simply Money on the iHeart app wherever you

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Speaker 2: find your podcast. Straight Ahead at six p forty three,

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Speaker 2: we'll talk about the retirement suitet spot that you might

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Speaker 2: not know about. There's an opinion piece in the Wall

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Speaker 2: Street Journal that caught our attention. It was written by

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Speaker 2: Olivia Mitchell, a professor of insurance and risk Management and

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Speaker 2: business economics and policy. Wow, that's a big department at

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Speaker 2: the wart Morton School of the University of Pennsylvania. That's

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Speaker 2: a big school, so she covers a lot of areas

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Speaker 2: where she also directs the Pension Research Council. The contention

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Speaker 2: that she makes in this article, Brian, is that making

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Speaker 2: an annuity the default option and four to one K

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Speaker 2: plans could shift more savings into guaranteed lifetime income solutions,

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Speaker 2: and I guess help more people, much like now the

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Speaker 2: default option in many four to one K plans or

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Speaker 2: these target date funds that we talk about all the time.

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Speaker 4: Let's get into this a little bit.

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Speaker 3: I want I want to clarify one thing because for

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Speaker 3: a lot of time and I think perhaps we're maybe

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Speaker 3: a little guilty of this. We warn about annuities all

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Speaker 3: the time because they can be extremely lucrative for the

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Speaker 3: person selling them in the form of a commission those

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Speaker 3: kinds of things. That is a real thing, that is

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Speaker 3: a real problem you have to be careful of. But

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Speaker 3: that's not going to happen in a four to one K.

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Speaker 3: These are not your commission based type annuities. These are

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Speaker 3: These would just be investment options like any other in

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Speaker 3: the four oh one K. You're not gonna worry some

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Speaker 3: much about upfront commissions or lock up periods, those kinds

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Speaker 3: of things. And I suppose that's possible, but I'd be

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Speaker 3: shocked if Arisa allowed that to happen any case, annuity

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Speaker 3: does not always mean commission. It's something to think about.

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Speaker 3: But anyways, so for today what we're talking about. The

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Speaker 3: argument for it is this, if you're about to go

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Speaker 3: into retirement and you want to lock in that floor

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Speaker 3: of income, you can carve out part of it to

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Speaker 3: put in the annuities and keep the rest of your

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Speaker 3: portfolio invested for growth. An annuity gives you that fixed

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Speaker 3: cost layer of your income so that your growth assets

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Speaker 3: are more free to take some risk. Now, whenever we

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Speaker 3: say fixed costs, whenever we're talking about annuities, this will

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Speaker 3: necessarily and in a guaranteed manner, lower your rate of

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Speaker 3: return over time if you otherwise were invested in a

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Speaker 3: growth portfolio.

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Speaker 4: That makes logical sense, but something to be aware of.

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Speaker 3: Some people can be disappointed that, well, if I'm going

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Speaker 3: to lock in and take this guarantee now, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: do as much in the go go markets. Of course,

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Speaker 3: not because you put that guarantee in place. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: make it a bad thing. That's just something to be

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Speaker 3: aware of. So do the math, figure out what you're

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Speaker 3: comfortable with. I want X amount of dollars per year

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Speaker 3: that I can count on that I don't have to

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Speaker 3: worry about to cover my most basic living expenses, and

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Speaker 3: then that means the rest of my portfolio can swing

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Speaker 3: up or down. I won't enjoy the down markets, but

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Speaker 3: I will understand how they work because I because I've

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Speaker 3: learned my history. But and I will be happy in

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Speaker 3: the notion that I've got my income covered otherwise for

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Speaker 3: my basic expenses.

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Speaker 2: All right, Brian, I'm gonna switch gears on you a

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Speaker 2: little bit here, because what you're talking about right now

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Speaker 2: is people that will actually do some financial planning, run numbers, figure.

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Speaker 4: Out what they need leap.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think you are in this sense, and I'm

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Speaker 2: just hearkening back to the days where I've talked about

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Speaker 2: this before. I used to be the advisor to you know,

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Speaker 2: three or four pretty large four or one K plans.

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Speaker 2: So I'd go in and do the semi annual or

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Speaker 2: annual discussion with all of the employees in the company,

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Speaker 2: and Bryant, you get this deer in the headlights look

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Speaker 2: from a lot of them. You know, they have no

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Speaker 2: idea what we're even thinking about right now when it

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Speaker 2: comes to asset allocation, picking funds, what have you. At

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, they they want to work

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Speaker 2: and they want to have their paycheck continue. And I

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Speaker 2: think I think the reason that the argument is being

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Speaker 2: made for the fixed income annuity kind of strategy by

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Speaker 2: MS Mitchell is a lot of these folks.

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Speaker 4: You know, in an ideal world, we'd go.

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Speaker 2: Back to the defined benefit pension world where you work

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Speaker 2: thirty or forty years and you know you're going to

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Speaker 2: get a paycheck and you know what it's going to be.

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Speaker 2: I think there is a place for this for folks

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Speaker 2: that can't afford or don't have you know, advisors like

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Speaker 2: you that can walk them through all these you know,

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Speaker 2: all these different UH planning strategies and options.

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Speaker 4: What do you think about that?

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Speaker 2: Because when you put if you make this the default

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Speaker 2: option in a four to one K plan to the

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Speaker 2: point you've already made, you're permanently locking into lower returns. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you might have a guaranteed income at some point, but

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Speaker 2: it's that check is going to be a lot less

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Speaker 2: than if you had just put it in a stock

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Speaker 2: index fund or a target date fund, you know, seven

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Speaker 2: eighty percent weighted to stock. Cause that's kind of where

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Speaker 2: I'm coming from.

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Speaker 4: Here, Bob.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna be super blunt. I hate this as the

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Speaker 3: default option. I really hope that is not what comes

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Speaker 3: to be. And the reason I say this is because

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Speaker 3: it wasn't that long ago that the default option became

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Speaker 3: target date funds. And the reason for that was so

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Speaker 3: many people out there just they just filled out the

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Speaker 3: paperwork when they hired into their company, and the default

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Speaker 3: fund was just a money market fund, and then ten,

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Speaker 3: literally ten fifteen years later they would start to understand,

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Speaker 3: you know what the four O one K is for,

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Speaker 3: and all of a sudden they realized it's been sitting

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Speaker 3: in a savings account for fifteen years. During that time,

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Speaker 3: it should have been their most aggressive investing times ever.

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Speaker 3: So I do not like this as the default I

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Speaker 3: think it brings us back to the notion that I

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Speaker 3: don't have to think someone will just hand me a

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Speaker 3: paycheck when I retire. Well, an annuity is guaranteed to

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Speaker 3: be a source of income, and that is not a

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Speaker 3: bad thing, but it's also guaranteed to be less than

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Speaker 3: a growth portfolio. You shouldn't have a guaranteed stream of

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Speaker 3: income type of a tool when you're in your twenties

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Speaker 3: and thirties. Let it grow. The guaranteed income parts should

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Speaker 3: come much much more later in life.

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Speaker 2: All right, So if we've made Brian King for a day,

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Speaker 2: forget about you know, the Wharton School of Business and

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Speaker 2: all that. If you were the King, you know of

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Speaker 2: Arisa In designing retirement plans, what would you put in

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Speaker 2: as the default option for folks that don't fill out

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Speaker 2: a form and select their own investment options.

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Speaker 1: I like the plan we have now. I was really happy.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember when that was.

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Speaker 3: That's by fifteen years ago, maybe longer than that, when

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Speaker 3: when they changed to the default option needs to be

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Speaker 3: some kind of reasonable target date fund that forced people

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Speaker 3: to even if you weren't going to put any effort

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Speaker 3: at all, at least you had something.

441
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:38,480
Speaker 1: Somebody made a decision that based on.

442
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 3: Your age, here's how aggressive you should be with your

443
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,959
Speaker 3: portfolio versus making it a widow's and orphan's portfolio by

444
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:45,040
Speaker 3: sticking it in the money market.

445
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:45,480
Speaker 4: Uh.

446
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:47,239
Speaker 3: Because I'm twenty years old and didn't want to read

447
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 3: the paperwork, so I thought that was a good plan.

448
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 3: I don't want to see us leave it.

449
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 2: All right, Take that Wharton School of Business, all right,

450
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,439
Speaker 2: here's the all Worth advice. With the right strategy, you

451
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,880
Speaker 2: can build refuly up or retirement income without locking your

452
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,879
Speaker 2: money away. We had a call or ask if he

453
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 2: should switch his four to one k from ROTH to

454
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 2: pre tax. But the real answer may be something you've

455
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 2: never even heard of. We'll break that down and explain

456
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 2: why it could be a huge opportunity for some of you.

457
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 2: You're listening to Simply Money presented by all Worth Financial

458
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 2: on fifty five KRC the talk station.

459
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,359
Speaker 4: Your countries are going to hell. Something is happening.

460
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,360
Speaker 6: Would be Trump assas and Ryan Ruth guilty.

461
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 2: Trump shutdown, Antifa, check in all day, It's all the

462
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 2: way something I forgive him.

463
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 1: Fifty five KRZ the talk station, another group.

464
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:40,639
Speaker 6: This is fifty five KRC and iHeartRadio station.

465
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 2: You're listening to Simply Money presented by all Worth Financial

466
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,399
Speaker 2: on Bob Sponseller along with Brian James. Do you have

467
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,920
Speaker 2: a financial question you'd like for us to answer. There's

468
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 2: a red button you can click while you're listening to

469
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 2: the show right on the iHeart app. Simply record your

470
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,400
Speaker 2: question and it will come straight to us. And speaking

471
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 2: of questions, we've actually got a live caller tonight. John

472
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,399
Speaker 2: has called in and John, thanks for joining us tonight.

473
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 4: What's on your mind? And how can we help.

474
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:14,439
Speaker 5: You perfect No appreciate you guys helping me on Love

475
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 5: the Show. My question is really related to four oh

476
00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,120
Speaker 5: one K contributions. So just a little bit of context.

477
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 5: My wife and I both max are four to one

478
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 5: K contributions. We are in the highest tax bracket so

479
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 5: and that's you know, above thirty seven percent. Both my

480
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,840
Speaker 5: wife and I contribute to a ROTH contribution and we

481
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,119
Speaker 5: have been for years. And so my question is, you know,

482
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 5: I know the debate of whether it should be pre

483
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 5: tax or ROTH, but we just always wanted to, you know,

484
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,840
Speaker 5: have as much savings and WROTH as we possibly can,

485
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 5: and we're both very good savers, and so just wanted

486
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 5: to get your guys's perspective on if we should switch

487
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 5: to a pre tax for one K try contribution and

488
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 5: then you know, obviously get some tax savings or if

489
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 5: we're kind of okay contributing into it to a ROTH

490
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 5: for a.

491
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,680
Speaker 1: One k Okay, Yeah, that great detail there, John.

492
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 3: So a quick question for you is you didn't bring

493
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,399
Speaker 3: this up, so I assume that otherwise cash flow is okay,

494
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 3: You're not really worried about getting the bills paid in

495
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 3: all that, You're just trying to find the most efficient way,

496
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 3: most ficient place for that surplus income to land.

497
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 4: Do I have that correct?

498
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 7: That's correct.

499
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 5: We still save regularly into a taxable brokerage account as well,

500
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 5: So if we were to switch into a change this

501
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,639
Speaker 5: to a traditional and get more tax savings, I would

502
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 5: probably just save that into a into a taxable brokerage

503
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:42,200
Speaker 5: account to be honest.

504
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 3: Okay, gotcha. Well that's a great, great situation. So congratulations

505
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 3: for putting yourself there. You have a lot of opportunities

506
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 3: ahead you. So the first thing that comes to mind is,

507
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 3: first off, I'll say, here's my personal perspective. So I'm

508
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 3: fifty one, and I spent the first several decades of

509
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 3: my career shoving money into my pre tax four oh

510
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 3: one k cuz that's all there was. And as I

511
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,360
Speaker 3: sit here and do my job that I've been doing

512
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 3: for about thirty years now, that's what I run across

513
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 3: people with an enormous amount of money on the pre

514
00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 3: tax side, and maybe a little bit of roth because

515
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 3: they came to it later.

516
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 4: It simply wasn't an opportunity.

517
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 3: It was really really only became an option to do

518
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 3: inside of a four oh one K I would say

519
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,280
Speaker 3: starting twenty ten and later, because that is a plan

520
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,880
Speaker 3: by planned decision. Your employer, your company has to decide

521
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,919
Speaker 3: to allow ROTH contributions to the four oh one K,

522
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,360
Speaker 3: and they have to pay lawyers to redo a document

523
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 3: that governs the whole plan. So that's why it didn't

524
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,360
Speaker 3: become available on day one, like when roth iras came

525
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: available to everyone.

526
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 4: So that's that's kind of what I'm.

527
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 3: Kind of guessing that maybe a little bit of what

528
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 3: you're facing too, But you're right, Yeah, the pre tax

529
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 3: side is great.

530
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 4: Of course, it sounds like you're.

531
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: In a bracket where you're in about the highest bracket

532
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: there is, so pre tax savings would be lovely and

533
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 3: I think probably makes some sense there.

534
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,160
Speaker 4: Now you mentioned Roth contributions.

535
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: You are I want to clarify you are specifically referring

536
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 3: to ROTH contributions to the four oh one K.

537
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: You're not doing roth iras outside, correct.

538
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 5: We do we contribute to a traditional IRA and then

539
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 5: do the back door for both myself and my wife.

540
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,200
Speaker 4: Okay, well you just said the key word there because this.

541
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 3: Is when I read when I when I heard your

542
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 3: question and kind of what we were going to be

543
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 3: talking about. My mind went straight to something that I

544
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 3: super super super hope you can do. Have you ever

545
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 3: heard of a mega back door four oh one K roller.

546
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 5: I've heard of it. I'm not sure if my employer

547
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 5: allows it or not, but be helpful to get some

548
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 5: some additional background for sure.

549
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you bet, absolutely so this could be a fantastic

550
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 3: opportunity or for you or it's going to be a

551
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 3: big tease because you'll find out you can't do it.

552
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,239
Speaker 3: But at the very least it's worth looking into. So

553
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,920
Speaker 3: let me kind of walk in through the details here

554
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: at the end of this if you look of First

555
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 3: of all, let me ask you a quick question.

556
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 4: Can I ask how old you are or if you're

557
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 4: over under fifty?

558
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thirty eight thirty eight al right, so you

559
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 3: you got some time to go. So the reason I

560
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 3: asked is because if you're over fifty, you'll be able

561
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 3: to do a little more in terms of catchups. But

562
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 3: for now, we'll just we'll keep it as it is

563
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 3: where we are right now. But the just what I'm

564
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 3: about to say is that you could potentially, if the

565
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 3: planets line up correctly for you, which we're about to

566
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 3: walking through, you could potentially be putting a way up

567
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 3: to sixty nine thousand dollars as somebody who is under

568
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: fifty into your four oh one k. So there are

569
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: a lot Most people are familiar with the two flavors

570
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 3: of tax treatment inside right, we can do WROTH or

571
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 3: we can do pre tax.

572
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 4: You've been talking about that already on this call.

573
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: There is a third flavor called after tax, which is

574
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 3: a little bit of both of them. You can choose

575
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: and sometimes they call it a voluntary contribution. There's lots

576
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 3: of weird IRS risso words attached to it. But you

577
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: put the money in, you do not get a deduction.

578
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 3: That's the after tax part, and if you leave it

579
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 3: as such, if you leave it as an after tax contribution,

580
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 3: any growth that occurs will happen on the pre tax side,

581
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 3: So it's kind of in that case, it's kind of

582
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 3: the worst of both worlds. You put the money in

583
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 3: and you don't get any deduction for having done so,

584
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: and the growth is creating a little more of an

585
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 3: ordinary income taxable overhang over time, So putting it in

586
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: as an after tax contribution is not the that's the

587
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: first step. The second step is an IRS rule that

588
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 3: went into place in twenty fifteen that basically said that

589
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 3: you are allowed to roll over any after tax contributions

590
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 3: directly into a WROTH. So when you combine your normal

591
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,200
Speaker 3: twenty three thousand dollars that you can put in, that's

592
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: the limit for everybody, you can choose WROTH or pre

593
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 3: tax on that your company may throw in a match.

594
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 3: We have to account for that too. If your company

595
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 3: does profit sharing, it doesn't match or whatever. Let's all

596
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 3: make up a number. Let's pretend that that's an extra

597
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 3: twenty thousand dollars. So now we're at forty three. That

598
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 3: means in that particular case, you can choose to put

599
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 3: in another twenty six thousand in the after tax bucket

600
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: and then immediately convert that to wroth.

601
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: Does that make sense? So far?

602
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 7: It does? It does.

603
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 3: So here's the rub your plan itself. So every plan

604
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: is a different animal, right. A plan four to one

605
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 3: K plan is actually a trust that comes with an

606
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 3: instruction manual called a summary Plan Description. And these are

607
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 3: probably documents that very few people ever bother to go

608
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 3: and read unless you're a financial nerd like Bob and I.

609
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 3: But what that will dictate is do you have the

610
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: ability to make that kind of contribution. First, that's the

611
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 3: first requirement. Second, it has to be able. You have

612
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 3: to be able to make a rollover of it. Sometimes

613
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 3: they'll allow you to do a rollover within the plan.

614
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 3: There are you know, the catillac of this whole thing

615
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 3: is a you know, Fidelity sometimes offers these plans where

616
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 3: you can set this up to happen how automatically. In

617
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: other words, the conversion happens as soon as you get

618
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 3: paid the next day, and it just jumps through all

619
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,399
Speaker 3: the hoops automatically.

620
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: I think I've seen one of those in my life.

621
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: Other plans will allow you to do it, but it's

622
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 3: a much more manual process, involving paperwork and actual wet signatures.

623
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 3: So and then the final that if you can keep

624
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 3: it in the plan, that's great. It's also possible that

625
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 3: your custody and your four O one K may require

626
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 3: that you roll it into a wroth ira, which you've

627
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 3: already got out there.

628
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 4: So in this case you could just dump it.

629
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 3: Into your own your wroth iras as they stand, this

630
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 3: would be worth looking into for this would be separate,

631
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: of course, for both you and your wife. It is

632
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 3: a per company, per decision whether they're going to allow

633
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 3: these types of bells and whistles, but I'm hearing about

634
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 3: them more and more, so I would look into that

635
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 3: just to see if that's even an option for you.

636
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 3: I know that's not a direct. If you can do that,

637
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 3: then what I would do is, yeah, go ahead and

638
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 3: flip the other side to pretext. You're gonna high bracket,

639
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 3: so take whatever you can get, do the twenty three

640
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 3: pre tax, and then do the rest of it on

641
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 3: the rock side.

642
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 7: Okay, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

643
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 2: So John, the key is to get that summary Plan

644
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: description document. You know, they they're required to give that

645
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: to you. Just contact your HR department have them email

646
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: that to you. If you did that, you know, first

647
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 2: thing in the morning, you'd probably have it by lunchtime.

648
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: I got a couple other questions for you. Do you

649
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: and your wife have children?

650
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 7: We do? We have? Okay, two children? Yeah, yeah, both

651
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 7: under six.

652
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 4: How long do you plan on working?

653
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: It sounds like you and your wife have you know,

654
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: very high incomes and your wonderful savers. What are your

655
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: plans for retirement? When do you plan to stop working?

656
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: And then what are your plans in terms of dividing

657
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: up your wealth down the road between your kids and

658
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: perhaps other family members and perhaps charities. What are your

659
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: thoughts on how long you plan to work and how

660
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: you see dividing up, you know, the wealth that you're

661
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: doing a great job of building.

662
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, lots of good questions. I would say my wife,

663
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 5: similar age is probably would like to retire sooner rather

664
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 5: than later, in the next couple of years if possible,

665
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,719
Speaker 5: and I would probably work, would like to work into

666
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 5: my mid fifties. Probably sixty would be a base case

667
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 5: for retirement. So that's kind of the go ahead plan

668
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 5: I think. Look honestly, in terms of distribution of wealth,

669
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 5: you know, hopefully we continue to save like we're doing

670
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 5: and have a good nest egg. I think, just the

671
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 5: way I was raised, I don't plan on honestly leaving

672
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 5: a lot for my kids, not not not zero. But

673
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 5: our plan is to have a really nice retirement, spend it,

674
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 5: you know, go on iceaycations, you know, potentially buy a

675
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,720
Speaker 5: second home. You know, it probably gives them to charity.

676
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 5: But just enjoy the savings that we did and you know,

677
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 5: enjoy the time and experiences with my kids. But I

678
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 5: don't I don't plan to leave a lot for my children.

679
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 4: Fantastic.

680
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: The reason behind my questions is it might make a

681
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: lot of sense just to sit down with you, with

682
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: you and your wife, with a good fiduciary advisor, and

683
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: just map out some different scenarios, you know, as far

684
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: as how long you plan to work, what income assumptions are,

685
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: what you plan on spending when you do retire, and

686
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: just run some different scenarios based on what Brian talked about,

687
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: what's the what's the best way to do this given

688
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 2: your individual goals.

689
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 4: Because if you.

690
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: Can have some a pile of money in all these

691
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 2: different buckets, that opens up a wonderful set of opportunities

692
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: for gifting to kids, gifting to charity, saving taxes. I'd

693
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: highly recommend you sit down with somebody and just start

694
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 2: mapping out some scenarios, just so you know what the

695
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: opportunities are now, so you can get out in front

696
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 2: of this thing before you build up a massive tax

697
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: bill that you can't control once those required minimum distributions

698
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: rear their ugly head, you know, in thirty to forty

699
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 2: years from now.

700
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

701
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 5: I don't know a lot about those mandatory retirement distributions

702
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 5: quite yet.

703
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 7: Just because you're out there yet. But it's a very

704
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 7: good point.

705
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 4: You're doing a good job of handle.

706
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 3: The best thing to do is not to have too

707
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 3: much on the pretext side that doesn't happen on the

708
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 3: wroth side. So if you do want to look into that,

709
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: you can find that summary plan description. You should be

710
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 3: able to find it in like a There should be

711
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: a documents section of your four oh one k It's

712
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:50,959
Speaker 3: maybe a sectionally never look in, but it'll have all

713
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 3: those governing documents.

714
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 4: All right, Well, thank you for your time. It's wonderful

715
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 4: to have you on the show.

716
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: You're listening to Simply Money, presented by all Worth Financial

717
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: on fifty five KRC the Talk Station.

718
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,959
Speaker 1: The Shumer shutdown, Trump shutdown, the Democrats will own it.

719
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 4: Portland is on fire.

720
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: The Ice facility has been under siege.

721
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: President's declared war on Chicago is a disaster.

722
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: We deserve to be safe in our communities again.

723
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 4: Thank America, Trump again. Israel and Hamas a peace deal

724
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 4: is closer than ever.

725
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 7: Kiss about every nation working on this deal.

726
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: The events of the day, clear transparent information are heard every.

727
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 4: Day in real time.

728
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: Fifty five KRC the Talk Station, are welcome to here.

729
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 4: I do think he is too old to run.

730
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 6: In twenty twenty.

731
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 4: Four fifty five KRC, the talk station.

732
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: You're listening to Simply Money, presented by all Worth Financial

733
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: on Bob spond Seller along with Brian James. There's a

734
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: window in retirement where tax savings, roth conversions, and healthcare

735
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 2: premiums all ALIGNE. But Brian, most people miss it. Tonight,

736
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: we're going to try to help you find your retirement

737
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: sweet spot. And we're gonna paint a picture here with

738
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: an actual couple and talk about some potential strategies. So

739
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: let me paint a picture here. Say you retire at

740
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 2: sixty three, you delay Social Security until seventies seventy years old,

741
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: you require a minimum distributions don't kick in until late

742
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: seventy three.

743
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 4: That gives you a ten year window.

744
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: Where you can really take control of your taxable income.

745
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 4: That's what we're talking about here, the retirement sweet spot.

746
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 2: But you got to take advantage of what some of

747
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: the opportunities out there. Brian, and I know this is

748
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: right in your wheelhouse as an excellent advisor. Walk us

749
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 2: through what we can be doing during that ten year sweepot.

750
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a fun window where you can do

751
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: a lot of things. So roth conversions are the first

752
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 3: thing that come to mind. Low income equals low tax bracket.

753
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 3: And as we often say, that is not the time

754
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 3: to spike the football. It is not something to be

755
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 3: celebrated that you got yourself into a zero percent bracket.

756
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 4: And that is possible, right, It is possible.

757
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 3: To move your move your money around in a manner

758
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 3: that can give you zero percent bracket for a while,

759
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 3: but again, nothing to celebrate. That's the time to take

760
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 3: advantage of those low brackets, convert some of your pre

761
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: tax IRA money into wroth instead of waiting for those

762
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 3: iras to continue to balloon until the IRS has a

763
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 3: gun to your head at age seventy three or seventy

764
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 3: five and starts making you take those require minimum distributions.

765
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 3: You're gonna go ahead and pay taxes now and move

766
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 3: it into a tax free bucket and let it grow

767
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 3: for a tax free forevermore in the WROTH side. So,

768
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 3: for example, you might target this is how you could

769
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 3: do the math. You might target the top of the

770
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 3: twenty four percent bracket, which for a married couple that's

771
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 3: close to four hundred thousand dollars knowing that otherwise, if

772
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 3: you don't, you may permanently wind up in the thirty

773
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: two or thirty five percent bracket when rm d's and

774
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 3: Social Security kick in later. Another one, Bob, I'm gonna

775
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 3: throw this to you. Another one's capital gains harvesting. What

776
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: would you do there?

777
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,399
Speaker 2: Well, we talked about this earlier in the show. This

778
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: one doesn't get talked about enough. I mean, if your

779
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 2: tax will income is low, or you can purposely keep

780
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: it low, believe it or not, you could be in

781
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 2: a zero percent long term capital gains bracket. You know,

782
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 2: you have to have married couple, you know, income under

783
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: ninety six thousand dollars, you know something around that level.

784
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 2: We're talking about taxable income. This is a great time

785
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: to sell appreciated assets, take some gains, rebalance, do that

786
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, and pay nothing in taxes. Most people

787
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 2: completely miss this, Brian, and I see this way too often.

788
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 2: Another one is health insurance planning. And I saw this

789
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 2: happen with a client last year. It was remarkable how

790
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: this worked. If you retire before sixty five, you know,

791
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: you might have to go to the Affordable Care Act

792
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: marketplace for health insurance between when you retire and when

793
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 2: Medicare kicks in, and what are the premiums based on

794
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 2: on the exchange you're modified adjusted gross income. Keep that

795
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: income low enough and it could mean you qualify for

796
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: significant subsidies. We've seen families worth several million dollars qualify

797
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 2: for thousands of dollars in annual premium. Say things, I

798
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 2: saw this and helped the client do this last year,

799
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 2: which you know, I guess is why the country's thirty

800
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: eight trillion dollars in debt. But I digress people worth

801
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: a few million dollars getting free health care from the government.

802
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: But you know, we don't write the tax laws. We

803
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: just help people take advantage of them. But you got it.

804
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 2: You gotta do some planning and take a look at

805
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 2: what's out there.

806
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:22,919
Speaker 4: Yep.

807
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 3: So make sure you're not missing these easy ones. Let's

808
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 3: kind of summarize, right, don't wait too long to do

809
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 3: those ROTH conversions. If you get crushed by your rmds later,

810
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 3: there won't be anything to do about. I've had I've

811
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:33,680
Speaker 3: had a lot of conversations lately with people saying, Hey,

812
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: I don't like these rm ds, how do I reduce

813
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 3: my taxes? Well, the answer is either start hemorrhaging money

814
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 3: in a business that loses money all the time, or

815
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 3: maybe start making massive capital gains or charitable distributions. But

816
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: there's not a ton you can do to reduce the

817
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: taxes on those rm ds. They kind of are what

818
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 3: they are once you're in that stage.

819
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 4: Here's the all Worth advice.

820
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 2: The years between retirement and require minimum distributions are golden.

821
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: Use them to create tax free income, smooth out your

822
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 2: withdrawals and protect your future self from a government mandated

823
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 2: tax spike. The next time you make a big purchase,

824
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 2: should you pay cash or finance it? Some rules of

825
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 2: thumb that will talk about next you're listening to. Simply

826
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,320
Speaker 2: Money was thated by Allworth Financial on fifty five KRC

827
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 2: the talk station.

828
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 7: I'm super grateful that I was able to leave him.

829
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: Financially, giving thanks.

830
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,240
Speaker 7: It wasn't a good situation for me and my kids.

831
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 7: I just have you to think for that.

832
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 3: For all the advice I fill myself, I wasn't going

833
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 3: to cry, and the guidance.

834
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 4: To make good decisions. So you got control of your

835
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 4: life and I gave you choices. I'm proud of you.

836
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 4: The Ramsey Show, it's.

837
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 7: Definitely hard to get started, but once you get.

838
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: Going as super duper easy to pack your lunch every

839
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: day and.

840
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 5: Not drink Starbucks weekdays at seven on fifty five KRC.

841
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 4: The talk station.

842
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: You're listening to, Simply Money is thated by Allworth Financial

843
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,880
Speaker 2: Arm BOM sponsorller along with Brian James. When you're just

844
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 2: whether to pay cash or finance a big purchase, let's

845
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: say a home, a car, a kitchen remodel, the internet

846
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: tends to polarize. One camp shouts always pay cash. The

847
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: other swears never use your own money, use someone else's money.

848
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,439
Speaker 2: But neither camp is living your actual life. The right

849
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 2: answer is where math in your reality actually meet?

850
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:24,880
Speaker 4: Brian.

851
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 2: This is another one of those topics where you know

852
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 2: there is not just one black box answer. It's more

853
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: of an art than a science. But let's walk through

854
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: how we help people make these kind of decisions.

855
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is the old less filling tastes great argument

856
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 3: of financial planning, and I hear I can hear dads

857
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: and uncles arguing about this. You know, one size says

858
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 3: never have anybody and pull yourself up by your own bootstraps,

859
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 3: never owe anybody anything, and the other side says, do

860
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 3: the math figure out if the interest rate is really

861
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 3: going to hurt you in the long run versus what

862
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 3: else your cash could do. So here's how we kind

863
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 3: of break this down based on the kind of thing

864
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 3: you're needing to invest in.

865
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 4: So if you're buying a.

866
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 3: Car, well pay cash. If the APR is clearly higher

867
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 3: than what your cash might earn. If you're getting four

868
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 3: percent in the money market, and the APR on the

869
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 3: loan is seven percent, yeah that's easy. Pay that one off.

870
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 3: You'll finance it. If the rate is competitive, look for incentives. Right,

871
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: So we do seem to be getting back to supply

872
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,479
Speaker 3: a chain kind of like it used to be, where

873
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 3: maybe we'll get back where we'll see these kind of

874
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 3: fourth quarter inventory clearances or zero percenters. If it's a

875
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 3: zero percent loan, jump at that all day, every day,

876
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 3: as long as you have confirmed that they haven't arbitrarily

877
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: hiked the purchase price. Zero percent is zero percent, and

878
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:35,880
Speaker 3: you can keep your cash longer. That's the best of

879
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 3: both worlds. But again, if it's more than say, two

880
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,440
Speaker 3: percent percentage points higher than your realistic low risk return,

881
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: then pay the cash.

882
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: Now let's move on to buying a home, Bob, Well, here.

883
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: Here's one that we come up against a lot. You know,

884
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 2: the classic twenty percent down payment, which, let's face it,

885
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: it's hard for people to achieve that nowadays, but it

886
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: does help you avoid private mortgage insurance. A lot of times,

887
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: Brian makes sense to make a way smaller down payment

888
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: because if you completely drain everything, you have to hit

889
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: that twenty percent threshold. Sometimes we'll find people after they

890
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: buy the home, six eight months down the road, they're

891
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: sitting with credit card debt paying you know, twenty seven

892
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: percent interest.

893
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 4: So you got to look at not only today, but.

894
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 2: Look at what life's going to look like six months

895
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 2: from now, because you know you've got to manage that

896
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 2: debt based on what your actual life is going to

897
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 2: look like on a cash flow basis.

898
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 4: Moving forward. Thanks for listening.

899
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: You've been listening to Simply Money, presented by all Worth

900
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: Financial on fifty five KRC the talk station. Some people

901
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 2: only hear what they want to hear these days.

902
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 7: You need to keep an open mind.

903
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: We only deal in what you need to hear.

904
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 4: Everybody needs the truth of the facts. You need the

905
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 4: information that matters. We need to know if there were

906
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 4: warning signs you.

907
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 5: Need it around the clock today, tomorrow, and for the

908
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 5: rest of life. In the no twenty four hours a debt,

909
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 5: you don't need to go anywhere else, And that's something

910
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 5: that people already know.

911
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 4: For certainly, what Trety five kr

912
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: Z Z talkstation, according to a twenty twenty two fbis

913
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 2: the tw