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Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on w v Z,

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Speaker 1: Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back everyone, as we move into our talk portion

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Speaker 2: of the evening, I have two guests scheduled this hour, UH,

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Speaker 2: and I want them both to feel very welcome here

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Speaker 2: to Night Side. First of all, old friend, attorney Jeff Robbins,

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Speaker 2: who has been in this program many times, former executive

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Speaker 2: director of the Anti Defamation League. I'm here in New

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Speaker 2: England and a client of his, Marcel Vernon. Mister Vernon

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Speaker 2: is the former director, UH, the executive director and the

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Speaker 2: CEO of the Massachusetts Convention Commission Authority and an organization

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Speaker 2: that is a quasi pro public organization, the Massachusetts Convention

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Speaker 2: Center Authority similar to mass Board or the mass Turnpike

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Speaker 2: created by the legislature and basically is in charge of

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Speaker 2: three facilities. The Hines Auditorium in Boston, which most of

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Speaker 2: us know. There's a Springfield Convention Center that money of

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Speaker 2: us are aware of. But in addition to that, now

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Speaker 2: you have the Boston Convention Center, which I believe has

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Speaker 2: just been named in honor of former Mayor Tom Anino.

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Speaker 2: Marcel Vernon was brought in to basically provide some leadership

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Speaker 2: and to change things up that were still being done

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Speaker 2: at the MCCA, kind of like they used to be

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Speaker 2: done in the seventies and eighties. They hadn't been much

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Speaker 2: change and he ran into some roadblocks over there before.

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Speaker 2: I first of all want to welcome Marcel Vernon for

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Speaker 2: joining us, and mister Vernon, thank you very much for

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Speaker 2: being available tonight to talk to me and to my listeners.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Dan, and thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: I really appreciated and appreciate the opportunity to speak directly

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Speaker 4: and honestly to your listeners.

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Speaker 2: Well appreciate that. I also want to just reintroduce Jeff Robbins,

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Speaker 2: attorney Jeff Robbins, who who has represented mister Vernon. Jeff,

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Speaker 2: you you have a pretty i would say deep experience

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Speaker 2: in politics. I'm here in Massachusetts. It sounds to me

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Speaker 2: as a bottom line that things at the mass Convention

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Speaker 2: Center just haven't changed much over time.

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Speaker 5: Well, then, first of all, thank you so much for

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Speaker 5: the invitation. Obviously I'll let mister Vernon speak to this,

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Speaker 5: but basically that that's right. I mean, there were two buckets,

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Speaker 5: big buckets of problems that mister Vernon was brought in

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Speaker 5: nominally to address. One was an entrenched culture of what's

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Speaker 5: call it lack of diversity and discrimination on one hand,

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Speaker 5: which had been documented in the major report commissioned by

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Speaker 5: the authority itself by an outside law firm, and then

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Speaker 5: a history of let's call it wastefulness, let's call it

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Speaker 5: a lack of regard for the taxpayer's money, whether it's

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Speaker 5: through conflicts of interest or sweetheart deals, or disregarding bidding

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Speaker 5: a procurement requirements, or financial mismanagement. And mister Vernon was

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Speaker 5: brought in quite properly to bring in to deal with both,

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Speaker 5: given his background. And so the story that you know

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Speaker 5: about and has played out in the papers lately is

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Speaker 5: a dispiriting one because here you had the gold standard,

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Speaker 5: Marcel Vernon, and what happened along the way was not

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Speaker 5: particularly pretty.

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Speaker 2: As you suggested, mister vern a little bit about your background.

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Speaker 2: You came here a year ago, you lasted a year,

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Speaker 2: and it seems that there were a lot of people

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Speaker 2: weren't happy with some of the reforms, very reasonable reforms

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Speaker 2: that most businesses have to comply with in terms of

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Speaker 2: aareness and efficiency. Tell us a little bit about your background. First.

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Speaker 2: This is this was not your first Rodeo.

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Speaker 3: No, thanks so much, Stan.

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Speaker 4: I'm a long time finance professional, thirty years in fact

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Speaker 4: in the hospitality sector. I've spent fifteen years working in

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Speaker 4: domestic and international spaces where I've done this work and

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Speaker 4: done it routinely and and and and over, I should

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Speaker 4: say routinely in in multiple spaces where I've succeeded at

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Speaker 4: a high level. For me, you know, I've always tried

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Speaker 4: to just ground myself in you know, principles of integrity

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Speaker 4: and you know, transparency and accountability and control structures. You know,

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Speaker 4: as I mentioned being a finance person, I'm a master's

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Speaker 4: in finance, studied at Colgate University, Syracuse University, Northwestern University.

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Speaker 4: So I've you know, really cut my teeth educationally, but

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Speaker 4: you know, my cooperative educational experience has really allowed me

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Speaker 4: to you know, focus on you know, policy and what

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Speaker 4: made sense and principles associated with business.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So, so you arrive in Boston. I I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you knew of the long time reputation of

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Speaker 2: Boston as being a very inward city where a lot

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Speaker 2: of you know, people behind power brokers. Power brokers and

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Speaker 2: the power brokers would change, but the game would would

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Speaker 2: stay the same, No big contracts that should have been bid,

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Speaker 2: you know, people being hired not for what they knew,

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Speaker 2: but who they knew and what their their connections were.

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Speaker 2: Did you come here knowing about that reputation and and

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Speaker 2: what did you find when you got to the to

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Speaker 2: the Convention Authority?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, Dan, I had had experiences in the

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Speaker 4: past and state government where I served as the chief

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Speaker 4: financial Officer for the Department of Revenue, you know, where

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Speaker 4: I stewarded about thirty billion in tax collections, as well

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Speaker 4: as I served as a CFO for the Trial court

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Speaker 4: as well, where I oversaw about two hundred and forty

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Speaker 4: four different facilities between probation and the court system.

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Speaker 2: And so well, was this in Massachusetts, mister Vernon?

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Speaker 4: It was in Massachusetts, yes, right, and so but I

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Speaker 4: think what's important to note is that I think, you know,

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Speaker 4: the the Massachusetts Convention Center Authority is quite different than

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Speaker 4: many of those organizations. And I think that is you know,

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Speaker 4: grounded in and what's.

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Speaker 3: The best way to say, leadership.

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Speaker 4: And governance, And the Convention Center Authority itself had severe

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Speaker 4: you know, governance and oversight breakdowns, uh, integrity issues associated

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Speaker 4: with procurement racial issues, organizational and cultural issues, as well

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Speaker 4: as workforce stability issues. And you know, the the the

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Speaker 4: example I think that that you may be made reference to,

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Speaker 4: or death made reference to, is in fact a legal

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Speaker 4: in flawed procurement practices in particular.

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Speaker 3: And so you know, it was.

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Speaker 4: My responsibility as a CEO to enforce UH, you know,

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Speaker 4: procurement law and enforce institutional stability. And at the end

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Speaker 4: of the day, you know, this is really the only

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Speaker 4: way that you can protect vendors, that you can protect taxpayers,

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Speaker 4: and you can protect the workforce.

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Speaker 2: And you were you were still I mean, and in

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Speaker 2: the reforms that you wanted to put in place.

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Speaker 4: You know, for me, process, I should say, politics began

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Speaker 4: to take over process, right, and you know, I began

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Speaker 4: to be to be pressured, you know, to focus on

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Speaker 4: the politics instead of focusing on principles. And I had

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Speaker 4: to make a choice, and you know, you know, I

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Speaker 4: refused to compromise my values and I chose to stand

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Speaker 4: on those And that wasn't an easy decision, but you

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Speaker 4: know it was the right decision.

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Speaker 2: But I guess so. Marcel Vernon he is the recently

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Speaker 2: terminated CEO UH and UH and the executive director of

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Speaker 2: the Massachusetts Convention Center Authority, a very powerful institution in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: Also with us is his attorney, Cheff Robins. Will continue

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Speaker 2: with our conversations with Marcel Vernon and with attorney Jeff Robbins.

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Speaker 2: The problem with this story is that a lot of politicians,

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Speaker 2: and I say this, and I think you know what

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Speaker 2: I'm what I'm trying to say is they will run

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Speaker 2: as reformers, but once they get into office as Massachusetts,

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Speaker 2: I think they're anything but reformers. Uh. And I want

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Speaker 2: to explore that with Jeff Robbins and with Marcel Vernon

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Speaker 2: and with you six one seven, two, five four ten

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Speaker 2: thirty six one seven nine three one ten thirty. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure there are good people at the Convention Center, but

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Speaker 2: the people who are really in positions of power and influence,

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Speaker 2: not only at the Convention Center but above those at

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Speaker 2: the Convention Center and state government, they use that in

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Speaker 2: ways that I think bothered Marcel Vernon, led to his

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Speaker 2: decision to leave and eventually a buyout that has all

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Speaker 2: been publicized. But I think Massachusetts is the poorer having

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Speaker 2: lost his services as a member of leadership. And I

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Speaker 2: hope you agree if you want to ask any questions

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Speaker 2: six one, seven, two, five, four ten thirty six one seven, nine,

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Speaker 2: three one ten thirty. I know this is a story

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Speaker 2: that some of you might not be up to speed on,

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Speaker 2: but I think it's a really important story and I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure that the that it has received as much

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Speaker 2: public attention as it deserves, and that's why we're talking

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Speaker 2: about it tonight. Feel free to join the conversation with

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Speaker 2: my guest, attorney Jeff Robbins, and his client Marcel Vernon,

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Speaker 2: the former CEO and executive director of this very very

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Speaker 2: significant organization, Massachusett Convention Center Authority, which runs the Convention

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Speaker 2: Center over the Seaport District Hinz Auditorium and also the

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Speaker 2: Springfield Convention Center. Back on Nightside right after.

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Speaker 1: This, it's Night Side with Boston's News Radio.

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Speaker 2: We have two guests, Marcel Vernon, he was the former

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Speaker 2: CEO and executive director of the Massachusetts Convention Center Authority

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Speaker 2: UH and his attorney Jeff Robbins. Mister Vernon served for

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Speaker 2: a year in that capacity, just about a year. He

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Speaker 2: recently resigned from his position, but he's he resigned and

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Speaker 2: was paid a substantial amount of money in addition to

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Speaker 2: the money that he had earned, and I think that

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Speaker 2: that in of itself was an acknowledgment by those in

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Speaker 2: power that he was not treated properly. Mister Vernon, let

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Speaker 2: me let me get to the Let me get to

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Speaker 2: the to the specifics here, there was oversight by the

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Speaker 2: legislature and they requested documents about certain transactions. There were

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Speaker 2: also no big contracts which you were upset about. Give

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Speaker 2: us a sense as to how you became a persona

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Speaker 2: non graded with the folks that were running the MCCA.

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Speaker 2: Let me put up like that.

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Speaker 4: Sure, so early on in my tenure, you know, I

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Speaker 4: was approached about establishing no big contracts, which is certainly

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Speaker 4: in the legal practice.

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Speaker 3: And you know, upfront, upfront, I was asked.

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Speaker 4: In fact, to establish a thirty thousand dollars a month

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Speaker 4: contract without a standard bid process, and that process omitted several.

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Speaker 3: Vendors who.

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Speaker 4: Knowingly had a stronger skill set in the in the

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Speaker 4: relative area, scenarios like that were commonplace, and where there

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Speaker 4: were sole source procurement activity that happened across the board

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Speaker 4: as well for several hundreds of thousands of dollars. These

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Speaker 4: things are just not comfortable and certainly not legal. So

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Speaker 4: for me, I began to receive a lot of pressure

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Speaker 4: almost immediately upon taking the.

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Speaker 3: Job when I denied, you know, though denied.

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Speaker 4: Approval of those requests. You know, immediately I began to

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Speaker 4: experience a hostile work environment. The request didn't stop, they

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Speaker 4: just came in different forms.

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Speaker 3: You know. There were some.

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Speaker 4: Most senior leaders who asked for me to forgive hundreds

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Speaker 4: of thousands of dollars of dollars of money that was

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Speaker 4: due as a relates to contractual agreements, and again something

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Speaker 4: I denied the willingness to want to do or be

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Speaker 4: part of, but it was politically imposed upon me and

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Speaker 4: my team to go down this path to ensure that

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Speaker 4: we forgive a huge dollar amounts to organizations that were

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Speaker 4: associated with leaders that were on the board.

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Speaker 2: When you say you were and your team, you came

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Speaker 2: in there and you were able to hire some people

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Speaker 2: who you had confidence in. Obviously it's a big job

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Speaker 2: and it's a big authority. How many folks were you

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Speaker 2: able to hire during your your tenure at the MCCA,

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Speaker 2: and how much autonomy were you given in choosing your team?

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Speaker 3: So, you know, it's a great question.

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Speaker 4: You know, I think one of the key statistics to

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Speaker 4: to note upfront is you know, there is an issue

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Speaker 4: of race certainly that exists that MCCA, you know, it

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Speaker 4: historically has You know, the organization is comprised of sixty

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Speaker 4: eight percent white males from South Boston, and when you

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Speaker 4: look at the senior leadership team in particular, there were.

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Speaker 3: No people of color.

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Speaker 4: Up front, Latino or black or In fact, there was

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Speaker 4: a gentleman who said he was partially Asian. But aside

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Speaker 4: from that, there was some intentional hiring.

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Speaker 3: That had to occur. There was a report that was.

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Speaker 4: Written in twenty two and twenty three called the Prince

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Speaker 4: LaBelle Report, which cited the lack of diversity and the

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Speaker 4: fact that high levels of systemic and institutional racism existed

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Speaker 4: within the organization. So when I came in, there were

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Speaker 4: zero percent, as I mentioned, leaders in management above senior

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Speaker 4: leage leaders.

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Speaker 3: And I brought in.

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Speaker 4: I increased that number to twenty five percent. So you

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Speaker 4: can't calculate a percent change from zero percent to twenty

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Speaker 4: five percent, So so I increased it to twenty five percent.

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Speaker 4: Year over year, I increased a number of women by

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Speaker 4: fifty percent, so you know, and that you know doesn't

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Speaker 4: account for black or Latin women. You know, I hired

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Speaker 4: a multiple Caucasian women and senior leadership roles. I bought

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Speaker 4: in Latin women, I bought in Black women, I bought

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Speaker 4: in you know, African American men, black men.

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Speaker 3: As well, so across the board.

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Speaker 4: You know, I tried to create a really balanced organization.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I tried to establish an employee a

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Speaker 4: resource group as well that was all encompassing.

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Speaker 3: When I arrived there, there was a.

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Speaker 4: Bifurcated employee resource structure where there was a group that

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Speaker 4: was primarily for white employees and a group for black employees.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I collapsed those two groups and created

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Speaker 4: one group for the entire organization.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, it's it's twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 6: Right, We're in the twenty I know, it's it's amazing.

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Speaker 2: It is amazing. It's it's like it's before you got there,

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Speaker 2: it was like it was time stood still in about

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty.

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Speaker 3: It's absolutely it's incredible.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna we're going to take a break, Jeff Robbins,

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Speaker 2: are going to get you involved a little bit on

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Speaker 2: the other side. Uh. And again, if folks would like

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Speaker 2: to join the conversation and ask questions, feel free six

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Speaker 2: one seven, two, five, four ten thirty six one seven,

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Speaker 2: nine three, one ten thirty.

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Speaker 6: Uh.

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Speaker 2: This is a highly competent leader that the Massachusetts Convention

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Speaker 2: Center Authority had. They have now turned turned around, and

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Speaker 2: he was in effect shown the door. Let us let us,

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Speaker 2: let us, let us not gloss over it. He was

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Speaker 2: not fired for cause he had done a great job

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Speaker 2: and wanted to do a greater job. But he his

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Speaker 2: style of leadership just did not fit with those who

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Speaker 2: were running the Convention Center Authority and the politicians to

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Speaker 2: whom those who were running the Convention Center Authority before

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Speaker 2: mister Vernon came became very uncomfortable. We will continue with

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Speaker 2: our conversation with Russel Vernon and Attorney Jeff Robbins and

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Speaker 2: get some phone calls at six one seven four ten

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Speaker 2: thirty six one seven, nine three one ten thirty. I

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Speaker 2: think this is a very important story, uh, and it

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Speaker 2: is one of the vestiges of Boston that needed that

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Speaker 2: that needed someone to come in and take a fresh look.

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Speaker 2: He certainly did. He accomplished a lot in the year,

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Speaker 2: and the thanks that he received was nothing short of

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Speaker 2: being shown the door. Back on nights side, after the

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Speaker 2: news at the bottom of the hour.

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Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking with Morcelle Vernon. He is the former CEO

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Speaker 2: and executive director of the Massachusetts Convention Center Authority with

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Speaker 2: us is also his attorney, Jeff Robbins, who negotiated a settlement. Jeff,

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Speaker 2: My understanding is that the UH the mc c A

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Speaker 2: wanted a non disclosure agreement so that doctor, rather mister

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Speaker 2: mister Vernon would not be able to do interviews like this.

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Speaker 5: Is that true, Well, I should for reasons that you know,

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Speaker 5: as a lawyer, Dan yourself shouldn't get too much into

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Speaker 5: the discussions between the parties. But I think it is

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Speaker 5: fair to say that that is decidedly what the center,

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Speaker 5: what the authority would have preferred, no question about it.

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Speaker 5: And it's just another example of mister Vernon's, you know, integrity,

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Speaker 5: that he just was not going to agree to not

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Speaker 5: talk about what he observed. It just wasn't fair to

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Speaker 5: the public, it wasn't ethical as far as he was concerned.

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Speaker 5: I think he's right, you know, he's a big believer.

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Speaker 5: I think in the Brandeis line that the observation that

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Speaker 5: sunlight's the best disinfectant and here for the reasons that

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Speaker 5: you've said, this is one of these situations where you know,

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Speaker 5: a fair amount of disinfectant is warranted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've been around Massachusetts for a long time.

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Speaker 2: How surprised did you the way in which he was treated?

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm not surprised, and I am surprised, and I'm

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Speaker 5: not surprised because this is as old as the hills,

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Speaker 5: not just in Massachusetts but elsewhere where. There are certain

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Speaker 5: people who look at the taxpayer taxpayer dollars as their

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Speaker 5: own little trough that they're entitled to it, and I

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Speaker 5: think it mister Vernon was talking about this. You know,

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Speaker 5: people made the rush on him as soon as he

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Speaker 5: got into office looking for cash, and he simply wouldn't

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Speaker 5: provide it. So in that sense, I'm not surprised. But

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Speaker 5: to get back to something that you sort of alluded

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Speaker 5: to at one point in the last twenty minutes or so, Dan,

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Speaker 5: I am disappointed when they are political leaders who profess

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Speaker 5: to be reformers and who say that they're all about,

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Speaker 5: you know, clean, straightforward government that respects taxpayer's dollars, but

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Speaker 5: who sit by and either let this sort of thing

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Speaker 5: happen or tacitly approve it or you know, get involved

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Speaker 5: in trying to preserve it. And that's disappointing here. I

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Speaker 5: don't want to cast stones, but it's the governor who

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Speaker 5: appoints the chair of the of the board. It's the

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Speaker 5: governor who was in a position to insist that what

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Speaker 5: mister Vernon was trying to do be permitted to play

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Speaker 5: out rather than than truncated. So and ye as, you know,

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Speaker 5: I'm a Democrat and all that sort of thing, and

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Speaker 5: I've supported the governor at the times in her career.

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Speaker 5: But I think that, uh, you know, let's let's call

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Speaker 5: things fairly. It's a shame when people who tell the

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Speaker 5: public that they're all about clean government don't necessarily behave

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Speaker 5: in a way which is convincing.

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Speaker 2: Mister Vernon, did you try to reach back to the

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Speaker 2: governor on this? Did you get support from the corner office?

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's no one more powerful in terms of

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Speaker 2: the mc c A the governor.

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Speaker 6: No.

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Speaker 4: In fact, you know, I reached out to her several

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Speaker 4: on several occasions, and she never opened on the topic

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Speaker 4: at all.

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Speaker 3: I sent her, you know.

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Speaker 4: Several missives associated with performance and and you know, making turns,

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Speaker 4: but it fell on deaf ears.

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Speaker 2: Let's get to some phone calls here. Let me go first.

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Speaker 2: Paul has been waiting. Paul, you are next on night Side,

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Speaker 2: along with Marcel Vernon, the former Executive director CEO of

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Speaker 2: the Massachuset Convention Center Authority, as well as his attorney

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Speaker 2: Jeff Robbins. Do you have a question of comment?

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Speaker 6: Paul, Yes, Alder well three of you, gentlemen. Mister Vernon,

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Speaker 6: are you from Massachusetts? Ma, I asked, I'm not now,

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Speaker 6: I've lived here all my life. Did you really think

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Speaker 6: that you were going to go down to that authority

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Speaker 6: and do things on an up and up basis? That

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Speaker 6: has always been run by politicians unethically, politically back to

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Speaker 6: the days of Francis Joyce when he was running that.

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Speaker 6: Am I not correct?

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Speaker 2: Dan?

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Speaker 6: Do you remember him?

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Speaker 2: He was a protege of Billy Beltr for the Sate President. Well,

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Speaker 2: I think you know. I'm gonna let mister Vernon respond

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Speaker 2: to your question, but I think that from my conversations

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Speaker 2: with him, Uh, he came in here to do a

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Speaker 2: job and he did. He was not someone who had

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Speaker 2: never been in Massachusetts before. Mister Vernon, for Paul, just

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Speaker 2: give him a little bit of your background. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: as if you were you were dropped in here, you know,

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Speaker 2: from from the middle of Antarctica. You had spent time

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Speaker 2: in Massachusetts. Many people uh in positions of authority in Massachusetts,

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Speaker 2: including the governor who's really technically from New Hampshire before

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Speaker 2: she began at Harvard. Mister Vernon, you can respond to Paul's.

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Speaker 4: So, Paul, thanks for calling in. First of all, and

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Speaker 4: and and second, I'm a I'm I grew up in

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Speaker 4: New York, and but you know, Massachusetts is my home

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Speaker 4: and I've been here.

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Speaker 3: Eleven plus years now.

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Speaker 4: And for me, you know, I had a successful career

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Speaker 4: as a turnaround specialist, so you know, I've never looked

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Speaker 4: at you know, a challenge is too big, you know,

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Speaker 4: quite frankly, and to be honest with you, I was

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Speaker 4: not aware of all of the elements associated with the

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Speaker 4: overall history of the Massachusetts Convention Center authority. But what

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Speaker 4: became daunting to me immediately when I just you know,

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Speaker 4: happened to speak to someone on the street or at

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Speaker 4: a doctor's office and mentioned, you know what I did

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Speaker 4: when they asked me, you know, the responses that I received,

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Speaker 4: So it was clear that it's been a bastion of

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Speaker 4: of of criminal activity. And but I just, you know, again,

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Speaker 4: I didn't feel like it was something that I couldn't overcome.

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Speaker 4: I felt like by you know, putting in place sound

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Speaker 4: lead ship, you know, honesty and control structures and accountability

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Speaker 4: and transparency, that that I would be successful.

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Speaker 6: Can I ask you a question right up front? Yes,

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Speaker 6: you need to tell me you didn't know somebody to

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Speaker 6: get this job in the first place. You didn't know anybody?

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Speaker 3: You did not know? No, I did not.

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Speaker 4: There were one hundred and twenty five candidates that applied

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Speaker 4: for the job, and I was chosen. And so for me,

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm not part of the machine of you know,

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Speaker 4: washing you back to you know kind of you know,

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Speaker 4: uh ensure that you have a career trajectory. You know,

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Speaker 4: I have a sound pedigree and uh one that that

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Speaker 4: you know, really uh supports the organization.

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Speaker 2: Well, yes, very direct questions, and I can uh he

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Speaker 2: he he applied for this job. And I don't know

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Speaker 2: if he was solicited to apply or not, but he

403
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Speaker 2: applied for this job. There are one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 2: five applicants. This guy has been very successful in the

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Speaker 2: private sector, and he wanted to bring the controls of

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Speaker 2: the private sector into the MCCA, which was desperately in

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Speaker 2: need of someone like him. And he actually was willing

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Speaker 2: to cooperate with certain legislative leaders, who, by the way,

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Speaker 2: in many cases were Democrats who wanted to get information

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Speaker 2: out of the MCCA. I believe that there's a Senator

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Speaker 2: Montigny who had had from requested materialism. I correct on that,

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Speaker 2: mister Vernon, Yes, yes, and you were complying, and you

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Speaker 2: were I'm going to use the word discourage. You may

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Speaker 2: want to qualify that from cooperating with that an investigation,

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Speaker 2: as I understand.

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Speaker 4: It absolutely, and Ben stonewalled, and you know, and at

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Speaker 4: at you know, every opportunity has been provided, and so

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Speaker 4: you know, I've I've come forth and said that I'll

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Speaker 4: be one hundred percent compliant and a cooperative in whenever possible,

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Speaker 4: whenever needed, and that that was certainly frowned upon.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And as a matter of fact, without mentioning names,

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Speaker 2: although I know who the person is that that you

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Speaker 2: you were asked and I believe that you didn't want

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Speaker 2: certain materials to be reviewed or perhaps any way shape

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Speaker 2: or form altered. Uh, And you wanted at least one

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Speaker 2: of your subordinates to not be included. As I understand that,

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Speaker 2: and feel free, Jeff to jump in if you want

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Speaker 2: uh to to to basically participate in that disclosure of documents.

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Speaker 2: You wanted everything to go over there as clean as

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Speaker 2: a whistle, and I believe you ran into some turbulence

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Speaker 2: on that as well.

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Speaker 5: Well, you're right, I mean, the sequence was this. There was,

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Speaker 5: as you say, there was a formal investigative demand issued

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Speaker 5: by the Senate Audit Committee seeking documents about things that

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Speaker 5: have happened in the past and not so recent passed

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Speaker 5: in the recent past, I should say, mister Vernon issued

437
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 5: an immediate statement saying he welcomed the investigation. He thought

438
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 5: it was a great idea. In that investigative demand, the

439
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 5: Senate said that there were certain individuals that they did

440
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 5: not want to be involved in collecting those documents because

441
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 5: evidently because of concerns they had, and they went so

442
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 5: far as to say in that investigative letter that if

443
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 5: those individuals participated in the collection of those documents, they

444
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 5: could be referred to law enforcement. Whereupon mister Vernon issued

445
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 5: a directive that one of the particular individuals be placed

446
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 5: on administrative leave with pay, not as a punishment, not

447
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 5: as a discipline, but just to preserve the integrity of

448
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 5: the investigation and to ensure that the Senate's concerns were met.

449
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 5: And so it was disappointing that within hours of him

450
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 5: giving that directive, the chairwoman of the board immediately countermanded

451
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 5: it and instructed that that person be put right back

452
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 5: in place where that person could be where the Senate

453
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 5: obviously didn't want him to be. There's a very courageous

454
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 5: director of Human Resources who responded to the chair's emails saying,

455
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 5: I don't feel comfortable doing this, this is not consistent

456
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 5: with investigative protocol, and she was ordered nevertheless to do it.

457
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 5: So that gives you an example of the kind of

458
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 5: battle that was going on internally. The Senate wants documents,

459
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 5: whether they want to be sure that nobody interferes with

460
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 5: the collection of the documents because they've got some concerns,

461
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: Mister Vernon takes steps to put a particular person to

462
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 5: the side so he cannot be in that position and

463
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 5: there can be no concerns about the process. And that

464
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,640
Speaker 5: person was reinstated and placed right back where he was

465
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 5: so that's that's a mark. It seems to seem to

466
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 5: us I think of an entity that was not acting

467
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 5: in good faith.

468
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 3: You know.

469
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: That just shows you what sort of a boiling cauldron,

470
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: mister Vernon you found yourself in. Paul, thank you for

471
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: the questions they would direct and challenging, and I think

472
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: he answered him adequately for you. Thank you.

473
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, one thing, one thing, the finish, Paul.

474
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,479
Speaker 2: I'm way, pat, Paul. I am five minutes passed by

475
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 2: commercial break. I'd like to keep my job here, so

476
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to let you go. Okay, thank you very much,

477
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: mister Vernon and Jeff Robbins, please stay there. We will

478
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 2: wrap it up on the other side of this break,

479
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 2: for which I am somewhat late, but I felt that

480
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: was an important area to discuss. Coming back on night.

481
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: Side, Dan Hm, you're on Night Side with Dan Ray

482
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: on w Boston's News Radio.

483
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: Really have just a few minutes left. I want to

484
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: thank you, mister Vernon, having the courage to do what

485
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: you did cost you your job, but also to come on

486
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 2: and explain it to people here. I think that a

487
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: friend of mine and a friend of Jeff Robbins once

488
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: wrote in a in a decision dealing with the Bulger

489
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: Flemy case. Judge Mark Wolfe he quoted Lord acton power

490
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, and I think that's

491
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: what's going on here. This is an amazing story, Jeff.

492
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: How large a loss is this in your opinion? In

493
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: about a minute or so, to Massachusetts to lose the

494
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 2: services of Marcel Vernon.

495
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 5: Well, it's a it's a blow because it sends a

496
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 5: terrible message not just to employees at the authority, but

497
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 5: to people all across state government that you know, notwithstanding

498
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 5: the pretty language that you use, the flowery language about

499
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 5: encouraging racial diversity, insisting on racial diversity, encouraging protecting the

500
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 5: public fisk that actually if you do that, you may

501
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 5: find your career uh threatened. You may find yourself the

502
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 5: object of bullying. That's what happened here. And I think

503
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 5: it's a terrible message.

504
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: Jeff. Thank you for being with us, and I thank

505
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: you for the work you do. Uh, mister Vernon, I

506
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: know that you probably are going to catch your breath.

507
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 2: Do you hope to get back in government service in

508
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: Massachusetts or elsewhere, or do you think you're going to

509
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: go back to the private sector, where I think your

510
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: services would be in great demand.

511
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'll go back to the private sector,

512
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 4: you know, Dan, I'm exploring roles with with global organizations

513
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 4: where I can make an impact.

514
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: You know, I certain mean will you know, continue to.

515
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 4: Lead and in work in spaces that value integrity and

516
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 4: and strong ethical standards.

517
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: It is a shame that that we are losing you

518
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: here in Massachusetts. I speak as a taxpayer and as

519
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 2: a lifelong resident of this state, and as I say

520
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: when I quoted Judge Mark Wolfe, who was is an

521
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: extraordinary UH jurist, when he when he used the the

522
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 2: comments from Lord Act and the power corrupts and absolute

523
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 2: power corrupts absolutely. I think that's what we're dealing with

524
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 2: here in Massachusetts. And no matter what promises are made

525
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: by certain candidates about things like transparency and UH and

526
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: and and sunshine, all we get is murkiness in a

527
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 2: situation where unless there's courageous people like you who come

528
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 2: in and try to do the right thing and then

529
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: are prepared to talk about it publicly. I hope that

530
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 2: your comments are picked up by a couple of the newspapers,

531
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 2: and I hope that more more people know what you

532
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 2: tried to do here, for the for the voters and

533
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 2: the residents and the taxpayers of commonwealth, and on behalf

534
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 2: of all of them. I just want to say thank

535
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: you very much, sir. It's a it's an honor to

536
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 2: have met you, and I hope to meet you in

537
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: person someday. And Jeff Robbins is always you're You've always

538
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: shown me good guidance and direction, and you haven't failed tonight,

539
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: that is for sure. Thank you for helping us work

540
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 2: this out.

541
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 5: Dan, thank you so very much.

542
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 3: For the conversation. Really appreciate it.

543
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: Mussel Vernon again, please continue always being who you are,

544
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: because you and I both know that that your integrity

545
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: uh is is what what will be your legacy uh

546
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: and it'll become even greater as as the years go by.

547
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: And this is just a slight bump in the road

548
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: here in the normal wealth of Massachusetts. Thanks so much, Marcella.

549
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.

550
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 3: Jeff, again, Dan, I have a wonderful Thank you.

551
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. We can back when it open

552
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 2: up and talk about Iran with an Iranian scholar who

553
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: teaches at Boston College. I think we'll learn a lot

554
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: about Iran in the next hour, coming back on nightside