WEBVTT - Denver Basic Income Project's Mark Donovan joins us

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<v Speaker 1>All right, let's do this. I'm Ross. That's Epic Gene

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<v Speaker 1>over there. Producer Shannon behind the glass. Joined in studio

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<v Speaker 1>one more time by Mark Donovan, who is founder of

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<v Speaker 1>the Denver Basic Income Project and a very interesting dude

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<v Speaker 1>in his own right. You should call Mark and get

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<v Speaker 1>together with him for a beer. He has lots of

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<v Speaker 1>interesting things to talk about. And Mark is on a mission,

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<v Speaker 1>one of his missions, to... make the lives of low

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<v Speaker 1>income people better. and the Denver Basic Income Project is

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<v Speaker 1>one thing, but you said you had some very specific

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<v Speaker 1>stuff you wanted to talk about today that may be

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<v Speaker 1>sort of offshoots of that, and some of the stuff

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<v Speaker 1>you sent me looked rather interesting as well, like the

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<v Speaker 1>AI Pledge for Humanity, for example, but why don't you just,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not even sure what aspect you want to talk about,

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<v Speaker 1>and they're all interesting, so why don't you just start,

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<v Speaker 1>and then Gina and I will follow up.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you, Ross and Gina. First, I'd like to

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<v Speaker 2>say this isn't just about low income people. It's about everybody.

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<v Speaker 2>This is about making some decisions and doing some things

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<v Speaker 2>today that will make life better for all of us,

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<v Speaker 2>because the trajectory we're on right now is one that

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<v Speaker 2>if we don't change a bit, we might have things

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<v Speaker 2>not be so great for everybody because you see wealth.

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<v Speaker 2>rising to the top. You see jobs at risk because

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<v Speaker 2>of AI and robotics. And so we're at a moment

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<v Speaker 2>of change, and we're using the paradigms of the past

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<v Speaker 2>to define what we do going forward. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>that's a big mistake. And so I sent you yesterday

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<v Speaker 2>an article that I posted on LinkedIn yesterday called The

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<v Speaker 2>Bitter Lesson for Poverty. It's built off of Rich Sutton's

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<v Speaker 2>Bitter Lesson for AI, which says people spent decades and

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<v Speaker 2>careers building really specialized solutions for AI. And it turned

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<v Speaker 2>out it just needed scale. And I think there's a

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<v Speaker 2>big idea here that if we invest in people, if

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<v Speaker 2>we provide cash unconditionally at the right scale, we cut

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<v Speaker 2>through a huge host of societal problems. And that's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of the big idea I'd like to talk about.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so when we look at the AI aspect of

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<v Speaker 3>this a little bit, I know a lot of people

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<v Speaker 3>have the fear of AI taking jobs. Is the concept

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<v Speaker 3>of a basic income system the idea that it could

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<v Speaker 3>be a solution? Do you feel like it has the

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<v Speaker 3>possibility of those who may not be able to have

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<v Speaker 3>a job once AI takes it over that the basic

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<v Speaker 3>income project can go hand in hand? What is the

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<v Speaker 3>back and forth between the basic income and AI?

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<v Speaker 2>Unconditional cash delivered with trust and consistency that you know

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to arrive, let's say, on the 15th of

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<v Speaker 2>every month. creates stability, it creates hope, it creates flexibility

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<v Speaker 2>when your job changes or your car needs a repair

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<v Speaker 2>that you didn't expect. Our current social safety net, everybody's

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<v Speaker 2>trying hard, but these specialized solutions don't scale and they're

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<v Speaker 2>not flexible. And what unconditional cash does is it's there.

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<v Speaker 2>You know it's there. Even at a small amount, that's

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<v Speaker 2>one of the things we found with the Denver Basic

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<v Speaker 2>Income Project. I remember our small payment group confused people

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<v Speaker 2>because people did really well closer to the larger payment

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<v Speaker 2>groups than they expected. But the thing was, it was

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<v Speaker 2>about community. It was about trust. It was about consistency.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what most people didn't understand about our work.

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<v Speaker 1>I keep coming back to this very, very fundamental question.

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<v Speaker 1>If you're going to hand out money to people, where's

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<v Speaker 1>the money going to come from, right? On a small scale,

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<v Speaker 1>because you keep talking about scale. So clearly you want

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<v Speaker 1>this to be a program that can work nationwide or

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<v Speaker 1>even globally. But on a small scale, a handful of

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<v Speaker 1>well-intended wealthy people can fund a bunch of people with

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<v Speaker 1>less money. And that's kind of what you did here

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<v Speaker 1>in Denver. But on a large scale, it's hard to

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<v Speaker 1>imagine funding that out of voluntary contributions, especially when tax

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<v Speaker 1>rates are already high and going up. And also as

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<v Speaker 1>a psychological thing, Americans are already being told that government

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<v Speaker 1>is taking care of the poor people. So therefore, since

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<v Speaker 1>you're already stealing, not you, since the government is already

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<v Speaker 1>stealing so much of my money to give to other

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<v Speaker 1>people who say they want my money. Why should I

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<v Speaker 1>donate more money for just more of that since government's

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<v Speaker 1>doing it already? So where's the money coming from?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, we have we have no shortage of resources.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's not that's not the question. And what you

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<v Speaker 2>said is really.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't just say that and keep going that we

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<v Speaker 1>have no shortage of resources.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I do. OK, I don't know if you do.

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<v Speaker 1>I do.

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<v Speaker 2>Would would one percent of your wealth impact your lifestyle

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<v Speaker 2>if you had to give it away?

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<v Speaker 1>No, if I only had to give it away one time.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, my suggestion is that we don't do it

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<v Speaker 2>one time. We do it on an annual basis. And

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<v Speaker 2>you can scale this at small scale or to large scale.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's what I love about what we're doing at

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<v Speaker 2>the Denver Basic Income Project right now. We're gonna stand

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<v Speaker 2>up a shared wealth fund. I'm committing 1% of my wealth.

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<v Speaker 2>into this on an annual basis. I'm inviting others to

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<v Speaker 2>do the same. For instance, Colorado foundations have $ 23 billion.

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<v Speaker 2>What if they invested 1% of that for the people

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<v Speaker 2>of Colorado? We created a sovereign fund for the people

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<v Speaker 2>of Colorado that keeps growing, that gets invested on the

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<v Speaker 2>stack that's going to grow. Income is not going to

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<v Speaker 2>create stability in the future.

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<v Speaker 3>So do you feel like you have enough people that

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<v Speaker 3>are willing to commit money to this fund? And then

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<v Speaker 3>I'll just be devil's advocate here and say, what if

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<v Speaker 3>I'm a company that says, well, no, I don't want

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<v Speaker 3>to just give them free money. I want them to

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<v Speaker 3>work for me. I want them to be hard paying workers.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want them to sit there and do nothing

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<v Speaker 3>and just take my money and go.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, try that. But that's what we've been doing. We

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<v Speaker 2>have tons of work development programs. Is it working? Do

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<v Speaker 2>you think there are going to be enough jobs paying

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<v Speaker 2>sufficient wages in the future to do this? If it's true,

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<v Speaker 2>then great. But if not, this is like an insurance

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<v Speaker 2>policy against it. Can we get enough people to do it?

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>You just need a critical mass. So if you've come

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<v Speaker 2>right now, the thing I love about what I'm doing

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<v Speaker 2>right now is, and this is what I did at

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning with the Denver Basic Income Project. I said,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going. I'm going to do what I can with

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<v Speaker 2>my own time and resources. I've been working pro bono

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<v Speaker 2>for six years on this nonstop full time. I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to dedicate 1% of my wealth and show what's possible

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<v Speaker 2>at small scale. I hope others join. Come to Denver

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<v Speaker 2>Basic Kingdom Project and be part of this. It's the

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<v Speaker 2>first of its kind in the country to do this

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<v Speaker 2>in this way. You hear everybody talking about it. Elon

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<v Speaker 2>giving 1% of his shares to kids next year. Anthropic, 5%

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<v Speaker 2>for the public fund. Everybody is circling it. But I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>if you don't do it today, you won't do it tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 2>So who's ready to go today?

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<v Speaker 1>We're talking with Mark Donovan from the Denver Basic Income

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<v Speaker 1>Project website, denverbasicincomeproject.org. And, you know, you talk about mosque

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<v Speaker 1>and anthropic, and that's all voluntary stuff. And I'm really

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<v Speaker 1>happy with anything that anybody wants to do voluntarily. Where

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<v Speaker 1>I started getting queasy is when people start wanting to

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<v Speaker 1>make it government policy, which is only enforced through the

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<v Speaker 1>threat of force or prison or whatever, right? Like what

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<v Speaker 1>California is trying to do on the wealth tax. So

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<v Speaker 1>in your mind, do you think this project that you

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<v Speaker 1>are considering can be funded entirely voluntarily? Or do you

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<v Speaker 1>think it will require a law to make me donate

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<v Speaker 1>some of my money?

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<v Speaker 2>So on our website, there's under the resources page, there's

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<v Speaker 2>a section called Colorado Cash Dividend. We did some research

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<v Speaker 2>on this, and we did some polling as well. People

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<v Speaker 2>don't want the government to hold this. Of course, so

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<v Speaker 2>can we imagine it? It's hard to imagine us all

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<v Speaker 2>organizing and doing this voluntarily. But we just need to

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<v Speaker 2>get over the tipping point. So yes, of course we could,

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<v Speaker 2>and we should, and we should do it now. But

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<v Speaker 2>will we? That remains to be seen.

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<v Speaker 3>Mark, maybe taking a couple steps back to explain to

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<v Speaker 3>people with the Denver Basic Income Project how that worked,

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<v Speaker 3>how was the money given, how many people were involved,

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<v Speaker 3>and how did they use it? What are they doing now?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure. So we deployed $ 10. 8 million unconditionally to 807 people

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<v Speaker 2>experiencing homelessness from 2022 to 2024. It was a 20-month intervention.

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<v Speaker 2>We ran a rigorous randomized control trial. You can see

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<v Speaker 2>the report on our website. And we're now 25 months

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<v Speaker 2>post payment, and we're still connected with 146 of the

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<v Speaker 2>original cohort. We're still sending monthly surveys and providing phones.

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<v Speaker 2>And 65% of those folks were reporting to be in

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<v Speaker 2>a home or apartment that they rent or own, 25

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<v Speaker 2>months post payment. We saw some amazing results, but our point,

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<v Speaker 2>our ask at the time was let's keep running this

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<v Speaker 2>and let's keep learning because we haven't answered all the questions.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think from our perspective, Cash works. Cash is flexible.

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<v Speaker 2>It's fast. It's efficient. And that's why we're not sure

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<v Speaker 2>the path to scale, but we're just going to keep

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<v Speaker 2>working with the community that we've created because they're amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>And they're going to school. They're getting jobs. They're housed.

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<v Speaker 2>They're doing all kinds of amazing things. Are some people

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<v Speaker 2>not there? Many are not. It takes more than a

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<v Speaker 2>year or two to recover from the traumas of homelessness.

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<v Speaker 2>But our community is so incredible. And if we don't scale, well,

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<v Speaker 2>we'll have an amazing community that keeps building together. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's what it's all about. I think we need more

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<v Speaker 2>community in this future that we're moving into.

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Donovan is founder of the Denver Basic Income Project. DenverBasicIncomeProject.org.

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<v Speaker 1>Go check it out. I really admire Mark's goal and

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<v Speaker 1>how much of his own time and money he's putting

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<v Speaker 1>into this. I have my skepticism about whether it is,

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<v Speaker 1>in fact, scalable, but that is what Mark, the problem

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<v Speaker 1>Mark is trying to solve right now. So go learn

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<v Speaker 1>more at DenverBasicIncomeProject.org.