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Speaker 1: We got to get right. So we're at Bockley Greenstuld

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Speaker 1: six o'clock, thrilled to be here at pub Life five o'clock.

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Speaker 2: Happy.

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Speaker 1: How Paul Dana Junior Brump, the Athletic and the Growler

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Speaker 1: Podcast is with us, Paul awesome. We have a lot

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Speaker 1: to talk about. First of all, Merry Christmas.

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Speaker 3: Merry Christmas. How are you doing tho, I'm doing well.

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm doing better than expected, especially because

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Speaker 1: this Bengal season has been miserable. Here's what I'm excited about.

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Speaker 1: I get a couple of days away, and you do

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Speaker 1: as well. From doing the psychoanalysis of Joe Burrow, and

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Speaker 1: that's what Sunday's win provided. A respirate from psychoanalysis.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we don't have to take the temperature of how

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Speaker 2: Joe Burrow is feeling, which is happiness scale today.

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Speaker 3: And we can just kind.

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Speaker 2: Of enjoy a day where everybody was definitely happy. Everything

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Speaker 2: looked the way that you would expect it to look.

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Speaker 2: They played like an offense that is built to win

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Speaker 2: a lot of games, even though it hasn't won many

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Speaker 2: this year, and you can just sort of accept that

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Speaker 2: for what it is right now.

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Speaker 1: So what is the best way to process Sunday?

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Speaker 3: Is it?

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Speaker 1: You know, bittersweetness? This is what it could have been,

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Speaker 1: This is what it can be. Is that they're going

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Speaker 1: to use late season success to cloud their decision making,

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Speaker 1: is that they're going to screw up their draft positioning.

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Speaker 1: How should I process Sunday?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there's different aspects to all of that.

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Speaker 2: The draftsitioning thing you can miss me with that I

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Speaker 2: don't really like. First of all, the draft is not

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Speaker 2: that great in the top ten anyway, so you're going

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Speaker 2: to be seeing a lot of similar prospects in the

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Speaker 2: middle and come on, man, these guys need to go

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Speaker 2: win games.

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Speaker 3: There's too many. I'm just I'm not doing that.

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Speaker 2: But I will say I think the lens it is

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Speaker 2: bitter sweet because this is what it was supposed to

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Speaker 2: look like. I mean, the Bengals, even in their best times,

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Speaker 2: haven't eviscerated teams like that. I mean, that's that is

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Speaker 2: the way they played offense, defense. Special to all of

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Speaker 2: it together is the way it's supposed to look on

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Speaker 2: a team that is capable of making.

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Speaker 3: A run in January.

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Speaker 2: And here they are at the end of December looking

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Speaker 2: like a team capable of making a run in January,

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Speaker 2: but none of it matters because everything that happened over

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Speaker 2: the course of the season, and that is bittersweet and

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Speaker 2: that's a little hard to swallow. But I will say this,

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's meaningless. You do worry. What you

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Speaker 2: mentioned is the biggest concern of all of this is

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Speaker 2: that it's like, well, I see all of these players playing, well,

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Speaker 2: they're coming along. We're just gonna bet on them next

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Speaker 2: year and run the whole thing back. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think there's very clear positions linebacker, defensive line that have

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Speaker 2: to have significant, you know, a raising of the boats

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Speaker 2: happening there. Like there's got to be some higher level

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Speaker 2: play veterans brought in that can be reliable and bring

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Speaker 2: you some juice and let the players that are currently

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Speaker 2: here either find a way to play above them or

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Speaker 2: b role players, which is probably kind of where they

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Speaker 2: They just need a couple more starting level players in there.

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Speaker 3: That said, this entire year was going to be.

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Speaker 2: Based on the development of all of these young defensive players,

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Speaker 2: and it had to happen at some point, and here

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Speaker 2: we are.

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Speaker 3: It didn't happen fast enough.

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Speaker 2: Everything that happened in the first ten games of the

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Speaker 2: season or whatever happened.

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Speaker 3: There's no way around that.

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Speaker 2: But I think the important element to look at it is, look,

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Speaker 2: you're seeing these young pieces start to actually look like

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Speaker 2: they are individually developing and taking a next step. And

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Speaker 2: that's not just from one game, that's from a continued

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Speaker 2: trend this whole second half of the season.

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Speaker 1: Did Duke Tobin actually oversee a successful twenty twenty three draft?

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Speaker 3: It's like you're reading my notebook right now.

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Speaker 2: I have a whole story, a whole story that is

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Speaker 2: I'm a about to have published for tomorrow on the

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Speaker 2: success of the twenty twenty three draft and more importantly,

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to affords the Bengals to change how they

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Speaker 2: operate and to look at things differently. Yes, they absolutely

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Speaker 2: had a successful twenty twenty three draft. I mean, if

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Speaker 2: you're talking about what constitutes a good draft, you're talking

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Speaker 2: about what you want to get three starters out of it,

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Speaker 2: and that's like, man, that's a good draft. You know,

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Speaker 2: that's just the way that. However, you got to find

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Speaker 2: a way to do that. They have far more than that.

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Speaker 2: I mean you're talking Miles Murphy, DJ Turner. I mean

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Speaker 2: they look like real, solid level pieces. Jordan Battle is

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Speaker 2: a part of this team's future. Certainly he seems undeniably

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Speaker 2: going to be a starter for them next year. Chase

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Speaker 2: Brown is a top running back in this league. Andre

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Speaker 2: Yosubasi is a solid three or four receiver, however you

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Speaker 2: want to view him. Like to find those pieces that's

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Speaker 2: real value. I mean, that is a good draft. It

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Speaker 2: took till year three. Sometimes it takes to year three

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Speaker 2: for guys to come around, but yeah, I think you

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Speaker 2: looked at that way. But now their extension eligible, Now

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Speaker 2: you're gonna see this. How are they gonna do this?

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Speaker 2: Is it gonna look like t Higgins and Jesse Bates

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Speaker 2: and the Jamar Chase stuff? That was all the off

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Speaker 2: field drama and trade requests and bickering over how good

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Speaker 2: they actually are or are we going to see an

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Speaker 2: Eagles style early investment in some of these guys.

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Speaker 3: These are hits. They look to be coming together, like

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Speaker 3: you're seeing that.

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Speaker 2: Go out and pay these guys before next season starts

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Speaker 2: and get those done and avoid all of the bickering

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Speaker 2: and off.

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Speaker 3: Field stuff that happens. I think what we have now

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Speaker 3: is an.

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Speaker 2: Opportunity for them to say, hey, look, we are doing

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Speaker 2: some things differently.

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Speaker 3: Now, will that happen? I'm probably not holding my breath.

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Speaker 2: On a lot of it, but I do think it's

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Speaker 2: a great opportunity to do some of the things that

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Speaker 2: maybe Joe Burrow is referencing, do things a little differently,

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Speaker 2: little more creative. This would seem to maybe be an

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Speaker 2: opportunity to do some of that with a couple of

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Speaker 2: these guys from that track.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you know to me this this certainly doesn't

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Speaker 1: let Duke Tobin off the proverbial hook. Whatever amount of

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Speaker 1: criticism he has gotten, I believe he is deserved. I

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Speaker 1: certainly believe his role with the organization should be examined.

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Speaker 3: But I'm also a.

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Speaker 1: Believer in giving credit words to and admittedly it's taken

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Speaker 1: Miles Murphy longer than a lot of us would like.

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Speaker 1: It's maybe taking Jordan Battle longer than a lot of

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Speaker 1: us would like. I certainly wouldn't use him as you

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Speaker 1: know somebody that, hey, we're not going to take a

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Speaker 1: safety because we have Jordan Battle. But he's played well.

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Speaker 1: Chase Brown is terrific. DJ Turner should be a pro bowler.

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Speaker 1: Andrea Yoshabas for a sixth rounder from Princeton was an

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Speaker 1: excellent pick or all five of those guys players that

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Speaker 1: could still be here in twenty twenty seven.

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Speaker 3: I you know that to be seen, I think it's possible.

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Speaker 2: You get I mean, you get into the dynamics of

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Speaker 2: can you pay everybody?

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Speaker 3: How much do they want? Wantuh?

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Speaker 2: Is there going to be a franchise tag decision of

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Speaker 2: all of those things? You know, Miles Murphy, if your option.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of dynamics and ways to go about it,

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Speaker 2: and so all of them, I mean, yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: I think a good amount of them. I think they've

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Speaker 2: got to find a way to do draft, develop Britain

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Speaker 2: and still be about that and prove it they're about

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Speaker 2: that and this is the best way to do it.

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Speaker 3: There's a I mean a long way.

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Speaker 2: To go to get to that, right certainly, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of things that happened, But I do think that

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Speaker 2: they have the ability to do it, and it's a

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Speaker 2: chance for them to prove what they really want to

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Speaker 2: be about in terms of how they build their roster

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Speaker 2: by making sure that a vast majority of those guys

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Speaker 2: are around for the long haul.

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Speaker 1: All right, So I read your mind. I know what

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Speaker 1: you're going to write about now, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about what you did write about. I didn't think and

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Speaker 1: I you know, the big takeaway for me after the

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Speaker 1: Denver game, same basic point in the season last year,

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Speaker 1: though they were playing for something, was T Higgins is

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Speaker 1: cemented as able love figure forever. That's before he signs

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Speaker 1: in the second contract. That's before we see him do

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Speaker 1: what he did this past week, culminating with his performance

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Speaker 1: on Sunday. I think there's a good conversation about whether

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Speaker 1: or not he should have been out there. That's fine,

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Speaker 1: But the fact that in the game that had no

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Speaker 1: bearing on the playoff race, in a season that has

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Speaker 1: gone awry, you have a dude doing everything he can

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Speaker 1: to get on the field and then contributing and playing

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Speaker 1: his ass off like.

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Speaker 3: This is I've said this before.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure there's a more beloved player than T

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Speaker 1: Higgins and I've had people say really, and I go, dude,

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Speaker 1: you it's it's not just that he's good, it's it's

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Speaker 1: dragging himself on the field against Kansas City in the

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Speaker 1: game they had to have a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's willingly playing second banana behind Jamar Chase which a

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Speaker 1: lot of guys wouldn't do. It's what we saw this

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Speaker 1: past week, culminating with his performance against Miami.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean just talking to him afterwards and him

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Speaker 2: discussing the process and how hard it was. You know,

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Speaker 2: I just sort of asked him because I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: what it's like to be getting on a plane flying

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Speaker 2: to Pittsburgh knowing that you're about to see a concussion

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Speaker 2: specialist and wondering what they're gonna tell you, and how

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Speaker 2: hard that must be to go through, and to go

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Speaker 2: through it all with the idea of wanting to go

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Speaker 2: be out there and playing the seemingly meaningless game, and

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Speaker 2: then to go out there and do it like that,

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Speaker 2: to be thankful to even have been a part of it,

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Speaker 2: to have played well, and to care about being out

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Speaker 2: there and being.

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Speaker 3: A part of this.

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Speaker 2: These are the type of guys you invest in. These

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Speaker 2: the type of guys you want their locker room. It's

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Speaker 2: topic guys they don't have probably enough of that. The

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Speaker 2: team matters that much, being a good teammate, being accountable,

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Speaker 2: being available matters that much to Tea and doing it

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Speaker 2: the right way like this was not haphazard. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to go out there and try to play through it,

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Speaker 2: because I don't want to ever diminish. It's very murky

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Speaker 2: waters talking about that, but going through it and making

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Speaker 2: sure everybody, including the top specialists in that field, has

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Speaker 2: said it's okay, and going out there and then embracing

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Speaker 2: and saying I want to go do it. Nobody and

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Speaker 2: guys said this afterwards. Nobody would have given I would

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Speaker 2: have cared at all if he would have said, I'm done,

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Speaker 2: I'm done with this year.

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Speaker 3: I've got these concussions.

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Speaker 2: I just want to make sure I'm right, and no

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Speaker 2: one would everyone would totally understand it. But the fact

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Speaker 2: that he did do it, I think proved how much

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Speaker 2: he is about this team, how much he does care

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Speaker 2: about their success, and how much he cares about being

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Speaker 2: a good teammate, and that wins you games.

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Speaker 1: Read Paul's piece on t Higgins in the aftermath of

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Speaker 1: that game on Sunday The Athletic dot Com. Paul Danner

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Speaker 1: Junior from The Athletic and the Growler podcast. I am

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Speaker 1: going to make, admittedly a very clumsy transition to something

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Speaker 1: that is unfortunately not anywhere close to as fun as

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Speaker 1: what we have been talking about. You guys on the

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Speaker 1: Bengals Beat are really close knit and you compete with

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Speaker 1: each other, but you enjoy each other's company, You help

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Speaker 1: each other, you do each other's podcasts. It's awesome to

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Speaker 1: watch and I think we as fans get to benefit

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Speaker 1: from it. Your podcasting partner and your close friend, Jay

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Speaker 1: Morrison is going through something right now that Zach Taylor

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Speaker 1: was classy enough to reference during his press conference yesterday.

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Speaker 1: And I want to spend a few minutes on Jay

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Speaker 1: lost his wife and this was totally unexpected. Jay covers

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Speaker 1: the Bengals for Bengals Talk dot com. He's part of

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Speaker 1: the Growler podcast with Paul. You guys are kind enough

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Speaker 1: to let me join you guys, and I don't really

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Speaker 1: add anything, but it's fun to be with you. Jay

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Speaker 1: is a sweetheart of a human being. I know fans

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Speaker 1: who read his work and listen and watch listen to

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Speaker 1: and watch his work our heartbroken for him. You're very

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Speaker 1: close to him. He's going through an awful time. This

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Speaker 1: is a long winded preamble into me asking you to

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Speaker 1: just spend a few minutes talking about Jay and what

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Speaker 1: he and his family are going through right now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's I've yeah, I mean I've known Jay

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Speaker 2: for so long I can't even tell you when I

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Speaker 2: first met him.

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Speaker 3: But when you met him, you knew how in love

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Speaker 3: he was.

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Speaker 2: Like we always you know, there's always like a joke

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Speaker 2: you could make about you know, you see some couples

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Speaker 2: out here and yeah they're married, but man, they're they're

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Speaker 2: faking it right, Like that's not that's not a real one.

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Speaker 2: And and and but that was never the case with

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Speaker 2: Jay and Nikki. I mean these were best friends, partners.

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Speaker 2: They did everything together.

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Speaker 3: They went out.

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Speaker 2: You know, we would always talk about all the concerts

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Speaker 2: and that became a running gag of what show they

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Speaker 2: were going to and where they were because they loved

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Speaker 2: each other's company and they were really truly there for

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Speaker 2: each other. And so for something like this unexpected to happen,

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Speaker 2: it's just at any time, it's heartbreaking. But for it

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Speaker 2: to be like this, you just feel for Jay, who

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Speaker 2: was literally someone who would do anything for anyone. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is the guy who will go and he'll take

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Speaker 2: care of his friends when they're sick or their moms

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Speaker 2: are cut cut grass, and for forbody who can't do

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Speaker 2: it right now or like literally anything you would ever need,

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Speaker 2: he would go above and be on to do anything

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 3: It just makes it hurt all that much more.

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Speaker 2: And he's just such a good dude, and and you

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Speaker 2: just are You're broken for him.

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Speaker 3: We all are. It's it's a it hits all of

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Speaker 3: us hard.

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Speaker 2: Because we we knew Nikki, we knew how much in

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Speaker 2: love they were. So it's it's tough where you know

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Speaker 2: what we we this is why I love Cincinnati, man.

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Speaker 3: We rally around our people, man.

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Speaker 2: And what we have seen and heard and the support

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Speaker 2: that has been directed towards Jay from people just in town,

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Speaker 2: people that are in the NFL, people that that listen

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Speaker 2: to our program and just feel connected to it, it

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Speaker 2: has been overwhelming, and I'm so happy to see it.

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Speaker 2: And I can't wait for us to, once the dust

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Speaker 2: settles on this, come up with a way that we

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Speaker 2: can find a way to really support even further.

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Speaker 3: But it's so amazing to see the amount.

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Speaker 2: Of support that he has out there, because it is

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Speaker 2: it's it's just it's it's just awful in every way imaginable.

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Speaker 3: Right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope in some way he's he's comforted by

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Speaker 1: the outpouring of support and the outpouring of love that

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Speaker 1: he is getting from folks that he knows and folks

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Speaker 1: that simply know him.

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Speaker 3: Uh, hope you.

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Speaker 1: Have a great Christmas. Thanks for everything, and uh we'll

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Speaker 1: talk next week. Man, thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: May Christmas Mo