Speaker 1: Don't want to be in a.
Speaker 2: Scott plo here seven hundred WLW. Will there finally be peace?
Speaker 2: Peace in our lifetime? There's a potential to end the
Speaker 2: two year war between Israel Hamas Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
Speaker 2: said he's going to convene the Israeli government. He's doing
Speaker 2: that today as we speak, to ratify the Ceasfire agreement.
Speaker 2: And President Trump may travel at Egypt as soon as
Speaker 2: this weekend, and that's where the talks are being held.
Speaker 2: To put in perspective. As doctor Mark Nzilaco, He's a
Speaker 2: UTI political scientist, also a Middle Eastern expert, former director
Speaker 2: International Studies Program and founder of UD's Human Rights Studies program. Mark,
Speaker 2: how you been?
Speaker 1: I'm fine? How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm fine. I think peace in the world is a
Speaker 2: good thing. I think when you see the people being ravaged,
Speaker 2: not only from what happened two years ago in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three, to normal Israelis living their lives, to the
Speaker 2: bombing and Susan bombing of those in Gosam, any of
Speaker 2: those people not really other than the fact that they're chattel,
Speaker 2: than this whole mixed up conflict illustrates the absurdity and
Speaker 2: just how cruel we are to other human beings, and
Speaker 2: maybe we'll finally get peace piece at last. And the
Speaker 2: question is will that piece last? Because I'm also well,
Speaker 2: I think the glass may be half full here. I
Speaker 2: think that there's some problems. We'll get into that. So
Speaker 2: let's talk about the deal real quick. Let me outline
Speaker 2: it in case you're not following this or just hearing
Speaker 2: it for the first time. Hamas has agreed to release
Speaker 2: all their remarrining hostages. Israel we will draw withdraw their
Speaker 2: forces back to what they call the agreed upon yellow line.
Speaker 2: And this is just the first phase the peace agreement.
Speaker 2: So it's going to be the hostages and then Palestinian
Speaker 2: prisoners get released, and then once that's finalized and within
Speaker 2: forty eight hours, all this is going to end. But
Speaker 2: there are some bombs going off today as a matter
Speaker 2: of fact. So first and foremost is this is phase
Speaker 2: one and that seems to be the easy phase. Phase
Speaker 2: two and beyond that's probably the more difficult. Can you
Speaker 2: lay that out?
Speaker 1: Oh? Well, I mean, there's a twenty point plan.
Speaker 3: It was agreed to a week or so ago, very elaborate,
Speaker 3: very very elaborate, very detail hell and the phase where
Speaker 3: now is really was water or to wide, you know,
Speaker 3: and the key is really getting Hamas to lay it
Speaker 3: down his weapons and uh, for Hamas to have no
Speaker 3: future uh in any Palestinian administration that runs that that land.
Speaker 3: And that's that's a long that's a long stretch. That's
Speaker 3: that's when you've laid the foundations for genuine peace. The
Speaker 3: smoke hasn't cleared yet from a two year and very
Speaker 3: as you say, very very bloody, very very violent war.
Speaker 3: I mean destruction on almost unimaginable levels. So I mean
Speaker 3: just psychologically and emotionally. How do people who are already
Speaker 3: each other's throats, how do they recover from this? How
Speaker 3: they move forward?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 3: You know, gritter things maybe haven't been done, but maybe
Speaker 3: the violence was precisely so bad that everyone finally went
Speaker 3: up and realizes that we have to find a means
Speaker 3: to coexist and to live together. So I'll hope that's
Speaker 3: the goal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you hope so too. You just wonder how long
Speaker 2: it's going to last. And I kind of mentioned that
Speaker 2: in my preamble there as you know, you're the professor
Speaker 2: in this conversation, You're you're the student of this more
Speaker 2: than I am. I can't count how many deals we've
Speaker 2: had in the past when it comes to different accords
Speaker 2: and the like. And that's not just a hummas, but
Speaker 2: generally peace between Palestine in Israel itself. I mean, the
Speaker 2: also Accords back in the nineties, you had Camp David
Speaker 2: in two thousand, You've had summits and roadmaps for peace
Speaker 2: in the Annapolis Conference and Trump's peace plan from five
Speaker 2: years ago, and none of them went anywhere. Why is
Speaker 2: this the one?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're exactly right.
Speaker 3: I mean, if those couldn't take hold in a much
Speaker 3: more favorable environment to peace than now, because as I
Speaker 3: said a moment ago, the destruction, level of destruction is
Speaker 3: so great, it's not even mistrust anymore, has deep deep
Speaker 3: hatd hacred.
Speaker 1: Uh So one could only hope that the violence.
Speaker 3: Was so immense that it shocked everybody into into a
Speaker 3: mind a mindset for a peace. But no, at this stage,
Speaker 3: we're looking what hostage you're coming back? I mean, it's
Speaker 3: really intelligence is assessin that Hamas may even be able
Speaker 3: to return all the dead hostages because obviously because the yeah,
Speaker 3: so will we be released?
Speaker 1: Which prisoners will be released? What will stay?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Still the big piece.
Speaker 3: Is does Hamas retain any any power now, both within Gaza,
Speaker 3: among Palestinians and certainly vis A vis Uh is real
Speaker 3: who's not going to stop hunting as? You know Israeli,
Speaker 3: So you're not going to stop hunting Hamas because they
Speaker 3: meet it. They they reached an agreement in Sharmol Shake Egypt.
Speaker 3: So you know, I mean the roots for violence are
Speaker 3: so de deep that.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So it's work as how as we can, as the
Speaker 3: UN says, get the hostages out and get.
Speaker 1: The aid in.
Speaker 3: Uh, but be realistic about uh, be realistic about the
Speaker 3: prospects for a long, long term piece.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't imagine Hamas is gonna go away quiet,
Speaker 2: That's the thing is. And there's a couple of points
Speaker 2: in here too, is Hamas is going to lay down
Speaker 2: their arms and simply guy, I just don't see this
Speaker 2: as kind of like the American Revolutionary War that all
Speaker 2: these combatants lay down their arms and go back to
Speaker 2: being gentlemen farmers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, I don't see that at all. Uh, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean, you know there was back in the day,
Speaker 3: but Oswell Accords, when you know, elements at PLO fought
Speaker 3: that were coming and they had a terrorist background and
Speaker 3: they made a transition from that. But this Hamas is
Speaker 3: a different like his bulla a different beast. Here's the
Speaker 3: point though, Gaza is is rubble and it really needs
Speaker 3: to be rebuilt UH. And then there's communities on this
Speaker 3: before poort and billions and billions of dollars. Now what
Speaker 3: happened before was Hamas hijacked that process hijacked. They were
Speaker 3: able to divert those niece to missiles and tunnels and
Speaker 3: bombs and uniforms, all those all the belligerency material for war.
Speaker 3: So in the administration of this piece, if we move
Speaker 3: forward on this twenty point plan, there's the opportunity and
Speaker 3: there's really the imperative that the global community monitor their expendors,
Speaker 3: really control that process so that by by by administering
Speaker 3: Gaza UH really marginalizing Hamas there so Hamas will be
Speaker 3: could be at war UH with his self, Palos to
Speaker 3: the ends up war with themselves. If Hamas is to
Speaker 3: retain is going to try to retain some influence.
Speaker 2: And that's the billion dollar question, man, how do you
Speaker 2: prevent that from happening? Because two things off the top
Speaker 2: of my head, Mark and silaka would be human nature,
Speaker 2: because you know the nature of of having control as
Speaker 2: power and power as to come, and fear as part
Speaker 2: of that is the currency of power. And so hey,
Speaker 2: how many regimes have we seen in the history of
Speaker 2: the world where someone's taken over and organization has taken
Speaker 2: over and it's become a total power grab. And again
Speaker 2: it's the has and the have nots. We take everything,
Speaker 2: we arm up, we scare the hell out of the people,
Speaker 2: and we keep them in line, whether it's this or
Speaker 2: poll pot or anybody else. And then the other thing
Speaker 2: is just out and out graft. Yeah, okay, we're going
Speaker 2: to have what the un oversee this? Yeah, good luck
Speaker 2: with that.
Speaker 1: Uh huh. Yeah.
Speaker 3: You know, there's an old expression in diplomacy that the
Speaker 3: devil lives in the details. It's easy to.
Speaker 1: Sort of reach.
Speaker 3: It's not easy, but it's possible to reach broad twenty
Speaker 3: point goals and have some sort of pacific vision of
Speaker 3: the future. But it's in the implement patient as you say,
Speaker 3: how many tons of food are.
Speaker 1: Going to go in per day?
Speaker 3: Really, how are you going to reconstruct the destroyed sanity systems?
Speaker 3: I mean, really, there is an opportunity out for Gaza's
Speaker 3: for pales Indians in the new administration to build not
Speaker 3: just rebuild Gaza, but build a new society there. And
Speaker 3: they're going to have to do it because it's literally
Speaker 3: rubble and it's literally great loss of life, great disruption.
Speaker 3: But there's going to be a you know, there's going
Speaker 3: to be an international relief effort. I hope we're part
Speaker 3: of that. We don't have to take it over, and
Speaker 3: that would be the number one could contribute a bit.
Speaker 1: We'll be involved clearly.
Speaker 3: The twenty point Plan, as I understand it, sees a
Speaker 3: key role for a peace commission chaired by the President
Speaker 3: of the United States. So we're engaged. We're engaged very clearly,
Speaker 3: but it's in the details. Let's get it right, let's
Speaker 3: do it right.
Speaker 2: But the problem is the other part of the problem
Speaker 2: to us, we've seen in Afghanistan and backwards, is that
Speaker 2: we pay attention. Because we're Americans, We've got the attention
Speaker 2: span of a nat and we'll pay atten engine to
Speaker 2: what's happening. Once everything signed and the press opportunities over,
Speaker 2: we'll move on to the next shiny object, uh, and
Speaker 2: then things will fall apart in the Middle East and
Speaker 2: we'll wonder what happened. Is that a possibility?
Speaker 3: Uh yeah, I mean certainly one would in his in
Speaker 3: the Maga world. Is this is a step of involvement
Speaker 3: in other countries wars That exactly what he.
Speaker 1: Promised to avoid.
Speaker 3: I mean, how how will his his loyalists, his most
Speaker 3: loyal supporters, how do they see? Uh this Nobel Price
Speaker 3: comes out tomorrow, It's gonna be fascinating.
Speaker 1: Uh, it fascinating.
Speaker 2: That's why he wanted to get it done right now,
Speaker 2: because he wants he wants he wants a Nobel prize.
Speaker 3: My guess is at the votes already end. Uh it
Speaker 3: would be interesting though, Uh, you know, the nighbors should
Speaker 3: maybe bows around at Jerry Kushner.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's working behind the scenes for a long time.
Speaker 3: I'm not I'm not nominating him by any means, but uh,
Speaker 3: there are there are, there was, There has been a
Speaker 3: great deal of behind the scenes fashion in the Arab world,
Speaker 3: and it's gonna be fascinating to see with the passage
Speaker 3: of time what we learned about that process. History books
Speaker 3: are going to be fascinating about those period time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's doctor Mark Ansolaco at the University. Dad and
Speaker 2: political science professor there talking about maybe finally peace in
Speaker 2: the least between Israel and Hamas and regime change there
Speaker 2: and stopping the bombing, and it could happen relatively soon.
Speaker 2: The Prime Minister of Israel NET and Yahoo is convening
Speaker 2: the Israeli government today to vote on this to ratify
Speaker 2: the ceasefire agreement. The other side, any, I don't we
Speaker 2: don't want' sall like a couple of bitter old men here.
Speaker 2: But but you know, we've seen this movie before, not
Speaker 2: just in our lifetime, into previous lifetimes. And you are
Speaker 2: a student of history, your political science professor, and history
Speaker 2: is the best indicator future behavior. And so if we're
Speaker 2: a little jaded and pessimistic about this, it's for good reason.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that this piece won't last. And hell,
Speaker 2: even if the piece lasts for six months, a year,
Speaker 2: two years, is ten years, whatever it is, that's better
Speaker 2: than these two sides blowing each other up, taking hostages, killing,
Speaker 2: raping women, holding people hostage, and the other side bombing
Speaker 2: the hell out of civilians.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's you just laid out of panorama. That's really frightening.
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I mean, it's long term one thing,
Speaker 3: you would be always sure over the Middle East that
Speaker 3: there's something will flair up.
Speaker 1: Yes, but at the same.
Speaker 3: Time, and I don't want to be too optimistic about things,
Speaker 3: but strategically the Middle East has changed a great deal.
Speaker 3: I mean because of the violence. I mean, obviously Hamas
Speaker 3: has been close to being destroyed, but you know his
Speaker 3: boiler and the attack on Iran with even the United
Speaker 3: States getting involved attacking the nuclear sites. I mean, so
Speaker 3: you hit this arc of countries that were hostile to
Speaker 3: Israel An Israel sort of you know, took the fight
Speaker 3: to them, and that is weakened these organizations regionally.
Speaker 1: And it's strategic.
Speaker 3: Now I'm not simply saying, you know, what a wonderful
Speaker 3: new world, you know, post war World War two? Uh uh,
Speaker 3: you know world. But yeah, there's been changes in the strategic.
Speaker 1: Environment, and maybe that could be a basis.
Speaker 3: I mean, you look at these golf states, Goha and
Speaker 3: all these emirates, all these.
Speaker 1: They're fabulously wealthy. They're fabulously wealthy societies.
Speaker 3: And although there's just an attachment of palicy and cause
Speaker 3: of IU coulds rather than protrusive. I mean, there's a
Speaker 3: lot of people sort of want to get out into
Speaker 3: their lives. They'd probably rather talk to Jared Kushner about
Speaker 3: real you know, you know, Mediterranean seafront.
Speaker 1: Real estate.
Speaker 3: Then they'll want to run around in a singing alo
Speaker 3: roc bar uh and and blowing things up, So there
Speaker 3: could be really environment. I always argue when I wrote
Speaker 3: my first book about violence in the Middle East from
Speaker 3: Blex September September eleventh, it said looking at a different war, uh,
Speaker 3: you know against Acada in Afghanistan. I simply said, you
Speaker 3: know this will this will end when mothers tell their
Speaker 3: children suicide in the act of blowing someone up is
Speaker 3: not you know, jihata in a way of allah. You know,
Speaker 3: when when you dead, attitude changes.
Speaker 1: And one could probably say he is ready sit inside too.
Speaker 3: Within the settler movement, the extreme sort of Zionist movements
Speaker 3: that are that have taken the vigilante law in their
Speaker 3: own hand, there's deep problems in these societies that speak
Speaker 3: against a long lasting peace.
Speaker 1: But one can build on what was in front of
Speaker 1: us right now.
Speaker 3: Right now, there's a lot of rebuilding of a lot
Speaker 3: of destruction, and and make the difficult initial steps in
Speaker 3: these peace press make these count.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you kind of hit on it there
Speaker 2: and the big question and to summarize what you're saying
Speaker 2: on Sa Laco is this only works if both sides
Speaker 2: wanted to work.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I remember at ended a chapter in my book once
Speaker 3: We're one of the leaders back in the day said
Speaker 3: we don't want peace.
Speaker 1: Peace would end all our hopes.
Speaker 3: I mean, if that's the mentality you have, yeah, you
Speaker 3: got the you've got the permanent roots for for for
Speaker 3: future violence. But right now, clearly in the house on
Speaker 3: the inside is exhausted. I mean, it's really difficult to
Speaker 3: assess this because journalists have they not had access to
Speaker 3: little many have lost their lives in this conflict. UH
Speaker 3: reporting from Gaza.
Speaker 1: But you know, one.
Speaker 3: Beginning to hear UH reports or inklings that Pelsins have
Speaker 3: turned on Hamas and they're saying, you know, yes, here's
Speaker 3: what these did, this great distraction to us. But you
Speaker 3: provoke them, you know, you poked the bear.
Speaker 1: Uh. And so you know, Hamas Tamas.
Speaker 3: Militants will walk around with scars, greens, cigars are on
Speaker 3: the head and and and the goose step. But in
Speaker 3: point of fact, there is a serious, very serious defeat
Speaker 3: for them militarily and politically.
Speaker 2: And the only multi phases are the twenty point program.
Speaker 2: We're just in the first couple right now. This is
Speaker 2: only phase one, so we're a long way away from
Speaker 2: lasting peace at this point, even a seaspar because bombs
Speaker 2: are going off this morning.
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact.
Speaker 2: There as we moved to phase two in beyond, it
Speaker 2: was France, I believe, the first loft of the notion
Speaker 2: that Palestinian statehood should be a thing, and some other
Speaker 2: countries signed on to that and absolutely upset those.
Speaker 1: Of us in the West.
Speaker 2: How dare you do this? They come in two years
Speaker 2: ago and look what they did, and now you want
Speaker 2: to give them statehood and forget everything else. But it
Speaker 2: sounds like part of this plan is eventually that's exactly
Speaker 2: what's going to happen. I mean, if Israel is pulling
Speaker 2: back to this yellow line, then they'll have a final
Speaker 2: determination where that is. That would then mean that some
Speaker 2: degree of Palestinian state right.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, I thought, I thought France and Great
Speaker 3: Britain announcing this a few weeks ago was really sort
Speaker 3: of and forgive me for putting on such plut terms
Speaker 3: sort of you know, media just the media stunt. There
Speaker 3: is no palest in the estate. I mean, when you
Speaker 3: say to me, show me your state, the first thing
Speaker 3: I want to know is where are the boundaries? So
Speaker 3: and then who's your leadership Hamas? I mean, it's nothing
Speaker 3: was going to come on this nonetheless, you know, and
Speaker 3: and so I understand President Trump sort of trying to
Speaker 3: push back in our allies this tag back you were rewarding.
Speaker 3: You said, exactly, wait, Scott, you're rewarding Hamas by giving
Speaker 3: them this prize. But no, the fact, the long term
Speaker 3: fact is there's going to happen in two states.
Speaker 1: So at some point you're going to so in the.
Speaker 3: Process of building, you know, when you when you really
Speaker 3: have to just make sanitation systems and water and deliver
Speaker 3: food and meta. You know, just the rudiments of running
Speaker 3: and government really, you know, particularly recovering one right, you
Speaker 3: can build trust, you can see that people can work together,
Speaker 3: and that what has to be to go in building
Speaker 3: and rebuilding.
Speaker 1: I think we really have to lay the.
Speaker 3: Foundations to build on for a long term, long term priest.
Speaker 3: But the global community, and that means the United States.
Speaker 3: What President Trump is the chairman of this this Peace
Speaker 3: Commission order, it's called right, you said, this right, the
Speaker 3: global communities have to stay engaged in that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that means the United States too, turn
Speaker 1: our back on it.
Speaker 2: We turn our back on It's Afghanistan, it's Vietnam, it's
Speaker 2: all those things, and we just, you know, because the
Speaker 2: public we lose interest in and why are we supporting them?
Speaker 2: Why are we doing this? And it's it's going to
Speaker 2: be I think, probably more low key than that. It's
Speaker 2: not like we have troops on the ground there, but
Speaker 2: in that regardless of this is something we're gonna have
Speaker 2: to stay on top of for a long time if
Speaker 2: you want it to work. All right, I gotta get going,
Speaker 2: Doctor Mark anseiloco ud. I was appreciate the time in
Speaker 2: the in the good stuff. I feel like I'm sitting
Speaker 2: in one of your classes here. Thanks again for the time.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I have a good one. Uh yeah, whether it lasts
Speaker 2: or not, we're going to find out. Although history is
Speaker 2: certainly not on their but man, you look at the devastation,
Speaker 2: the destruction, the human casualties, the toll. It's seventy thousand
Speaker 2: plus people. I mean that's a lot of people dying.
Speaker 2: And now it's over and hopefully you can go back
Speaker 2: to being that gentleman farmer. I don't know if a
Speaker 2: moss is gonna lay their arms down. I don't know
Speaker 2: if that's the thing, because there's always gonna be that streak.
Speaker 2: As soon as something goes sideways, they're gonna wind up
Speaker 2: game in more power.
Speaker 1: It's just the nature of the beast.
Speaker 2: Anyway, Quick time out News on the way, Sloany on
Speaker 2: seven hundred WLW