1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: It's nice, Dan Ray, I'm going you easy Boston's News Radio. 2 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 2: Thank you, Dan Watkins. As we move into our nine 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 2: o'clock hour. And it was last week, I believe last Tuesday, 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,240 Speaker 2: that I had a chance to talk with Heather bish 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: during the eight o'clock hour about the disappearance of her sisters, 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 2: then sixteen year old Molly Bish back in the summer. 7 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 2: Was the early summer of two thousand and I asked 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: Heather to come back because I thought we needed to 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 2: give a little more focus to the story and make 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 2: people think about what they might have seen where they 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 2: were at that time of Molly's disappearance and joining us. Besides, 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 2: Heather will be an old colleague, and I shouldn't say 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: an old a former colleague of mine at WBZ. Kathy Cowry, 14 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 2: first of all, Heather, welcome back. Thanks for making yourself 15 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: available tonight. How are you this evening? Great? 16 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it well. 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: Our pleasure, Our pleasure. I never had a chance to 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 2: cover the story much. I was working an early morning 19 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 2: shift in those days, and Kathy Kuren ended up doing 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: a lot on this story, and I believe has has 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: become really a friend of your family, as oftentimes reporters 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 2: invest themselves in these stories. Kathy, Karen, welcome to Nightside. 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 2: Nice to have you on. 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me. 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: Dan. 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 4: Great to connect with you again. 27 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll tell you it's always it's always great to 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: talk with you. I enjoyed working with you, and I 29 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: was glad you never had to work against you because 30 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 2: I think by time you moved over to Channel five, 31 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: I had moved over to WBZ Ray. So, Heather, let's 32 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: let's start with the story. I think we all know 33 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: the story, but describe for us a little bit about 34 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 2: your sister. You were, I'm sure or were close to 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: your sister. How close were you in age? 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: I was six years older than Mollie. I'm the oldest 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 3: daughter of my parents, and then my brother is three 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: years younger than me, and Mollie was six years younger 39 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 3: than myself. I watched Mollie come into the world. Actually, 40 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: my parents were kind of these throwback hippies and wanted 41 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: there wanted Molly to be born at home with a midwife, 42 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 3: and being six years old, they thought that it would 43 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 3: be a beautiful experience for me to see her come 44 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: into the world. And it truly was. Mollie was, you know, 45 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 3: six years old. I thought right away that that's my 46 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 3: baby too, and you know she's mine and too this 47 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 3: you know sort of possession and ownership of her. So yeah, so. 48 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: You you were, you were really you were perfectly situated 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: as a big sister. I mean yeah, you know, they 50 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: probably was no rivalry and I suspect you took her 51 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 2: a your wing. 52 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, very much. I mean I think there were 53 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: some pinch points along the way. When I became a teenager. 54 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: We had we had been sharing a room and you know, 55 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 3: I just really wanted my own space. So it got 56 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 3: a little hard, you know, when I was thirteen and she, 57 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 3: you know, but my parents were able. We added a 58 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: bedroom into our basement and fixed their basement up. And 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 3: my parents had a little ranch house in West Warren 60 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: and they were not you know, rich people at all, 61 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 3: but they did their best to provide us with what 62 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 3: they could, and you know, having that space was so 63 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: important to me. And then it became my brother's bedroom, 64 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: and then it became Mollie's bedroom. And it's funny because 65 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 3: Mollie was she's very impulsive in some ways where she 66 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 3: would love to, like right on the walls or whatever. 67 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 3: Something I would like never do because I'd be too 68 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: afraid to get in trouble. 69 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 2: Old child's syndrome. You were a rules follower, right. 70 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, So so she did. She did, you know, 71 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 3: create this little art area of her bedroom with you know, 72 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 3: people's deeper numbers back in those days, their phone numbers 73 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 3: or who loves who and what have you. But we 74 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 3: still have that, you know wall in my parts in 75 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 3: the basement and the yeah, and it's just nice to 76 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: see her handwriting sometimes or her thoughts. 77 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: Well, I can't I where were you the day that 78 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: that you came to understand that there was a problem. 79 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: You would have been so twenty one years old by 80 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 2: my math at that. 81 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 3: Point, Yes, I was. No, I was twenty three years old. 82 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: I had just had a baby at twenty two. Surprisingly, 83 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: our most wonderful special surprise that we got our Michayla. 84 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 3: And so Mollie had about eleven months that she's spent 85 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 3: with Mikayla. She was her godmother. The Molly loved babies, 86 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 3: so my home family does. But when we when Molly 87 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,840 Speaker 3: had like doll babies, she would you know, dress them 88 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 3: up in these real people clothes. So she was so 89 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 3: excited to have Mikayla and to be able to dress 90 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 3: her up, and you know, she really tried to see 91 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 3: her every day. And my brother and I were very 92 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 3: lucky in some ways, my not in others. But my 93 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 3: grandmother had passed away while I was in college in 94 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight and had left her duplex, her big house, 95 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: to my parents, and when I had Mikayla, I was 96 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 3: fortunate enough to live on one side of the duplex. 97 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 3: And the idea was when my brother graduated from college 98 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 3: or whatever, he'd have a you know, a soft place 99 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 3: to land for young adults. And we, of course we 100 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 3: needed to fix it up and do all this work, 101 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 3: but we did that. So I only lived a mile 102 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: down from my parents' post when when Molly first went missing, 103 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 3: so she had actually stopped at my house that morning 104 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 3: because she had not seen Mikaela in a few days 105 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: and she really wanted to see the baby, and so 106 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 3: she was playing with her, and I remember my mom saying, 107 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: come on, Moa, we got to go swimming lessons I've 108 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 3: starting today, we got to go. 109 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: So so at some point later that morning, obviously the 110 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 2: word came forward that she was missing. I just want 111 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 2: to get Kathy in here for a second. Kathy are 112 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: working as a reporter that day in WBS When did 113 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: how late in the day did that story break or 114 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 2: did it break shortly after? I mean, you know, Warren, 115 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: Massachusetts is a good distance from Boston, and I'm sure 116 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 2: that initially they were hoping that it was a misunderstanding. 117 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: Did you get out there that day or did it 118 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 2: take the next day for the story to really become 119 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: what it what we feared it might have been, and 120 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: that was something that was more than just you know, 121 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: a young girl, you know, drifting off of work and 122 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: they found her, you know, an hour later or something. 123 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: But how when did you get involved? 124 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 3: Yeah? 125 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 4: So I was a young reporter at WBZ TV at 126 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 4: the time, and some information came into the newsroom midday 127 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 4: that a teenage girl was missing and that she was 128 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 4: a lifeguard in Warren, Massachusetts. And you know, I had 129 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 4: covered a lot of this state and grew up in 130 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 4: this state and really hadn't heard much about Warren, Massachusetts. 131 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 4: It's a small town. There's one traffic light, a gazebo 132 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 4: in the center of town. You know, people know each other, 133 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: and so I headed out there with one of our photographers. 134 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 4: It was about an hour and fifteen minutes from our station, 135 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 4: and didn't have many details at the time, just began 136 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 4: calling lan enforcement sources and then learned that it was 137 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 4: a sixteen year old girl. She was supposed to be 138 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 4: at her lifeguard post at this pond. When we arrived, 139 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 4: it was late in the afternoon. The media wasn't allowed 140 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: down at Cummings Pond. Comings Pond is the pond where 141 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 4: Molly disappeared from initially, but they set up, you know, 142 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 4: a pool situation and a photographer went down, got some 143 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 4: video photos and then you know this this massive search 144 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 4: ensued and there were police on ATVs and bikes and 145 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 4: on horses. The state police helicopter was circling above and eventually, 146 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 4: you know, fireboats came in, dive teams arrived on scene, 147 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,960 Speaker 4: and there there wasn't a lot of information in the beginning, 148 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 4: and of. 149 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 2: Course in the first few hours, you know, you don't 150 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 2: know if she went in for a swim and got 151 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: I'm sort of a cramp and drowned. I don't know 152 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: if if the first instinct was an abduction, but the 153 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 2: fact that there was such a police turnout that that 154 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: might have, as an old reporter, might have led me 155 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: to think that Heather in the first few hours. 156 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 3: Actually I could clarify that I believe what happened was 157 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 3: that the call went out a on a police radio scanner, 158 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: and it was a mother using Molly's radio, mother of 159 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 3: one of the kids who were taking lessons, saying, the 160 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: lifeguard isn't here, the life guard isn't here. Then the 161 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: police called the parks commissioner, tried to get ahold of 162 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: the parks commissioner who was in the other town who 163 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: that morning saw my brother at a store where he 164 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 3: was buying supplies to build to you know, construction kind 165 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 3: of stuff. So he around nine as she's around there. 166 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: The So, because the police didn't act right away and 167 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 3: didn't act urgently, the fire department heard that call. And 168 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 3: again we're in a small town of five thousand people. 169 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 3: Everybody knows everybody, and the fire department said, wait a minute, 170 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 3: we know something's wrong here. And so they're like, all right, 171 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: we're going to go dive you guys, figure out what 172 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 3: you're doing, and we're going to go to the scene. 173 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: And so the fire department was really the first on 174 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 3: the scene. 175 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: Okay, So that maybe hesitation or not, you know, maybe 176 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: if something had acted a little bit more quickly, who knows. 177 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: But probably whatever we now know happened, which was an 178 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: abduction within fifteen or twenty minutes, Molly was probably was 179 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: outside of warrant. I'm guessing to both of you think 180 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: that's likely what something had happened. 181 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then initially, you know, this the theory was, well, 182 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 4: maybe Molly you know, walked away with some friends, or 183 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 4: maybe maybe she went in the pond and drowned, and 184 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 4: there there was no you know, there was no initial 185 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 4: thinking that this was an abduction, a kidnapping and a murder. 186 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 4: And that's that's one of the things that has been 187 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 4: an issue in this case from day one. Because the 188 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 4: crime scene was trampled on and and there were so 189 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 4: many people all over that crime scene that it was 190 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,360 Speaker 4: it was difficult when it came to gathering evidence and 191 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 4: then getting DNA from the evidence. You know, there there's 192 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 4: evidence from the crime scene. They have you know, duct tape, 193 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 4: they have soil samples, they have cigarette butts, but who 194 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 4: knows where that came from or who who smoked those cigarettes? 195 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 4: Because there were so many people in that area and 196 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 4: that's been one of one of the obstacles in this 197 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 4: case from day one. 198 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to take a break. My guest is. 199 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: My guests are Heather Bish, Molly Bish's older sister, and 200 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 2: Kathy cor informer TV reporter at WBCTV WCVB, and also 201 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: was it with General ten as well, you NBC ten, 202 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 2: NBC ten. Thank you very much. I've sort of forgotten. 203 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 2: There's so so many different changes here, and we're talking 204 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: about the disappearance of Molly Bisch and just trying to 205 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 2: set the stage that obviously abduction, I think we're just 206 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: established was not the first thing that came to anyone's mind. 207 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 2: You were thinking, people were probably thinking of disappearance, an accident. 208 00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: She was very as Heather said to us last week, 209 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: Molly was very very responsible. We are going to continue 210 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,560 Speaker 2: with the story, but we'll also invite callers to call 211 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 2: and if you have a question feel free six one, seven, two, five, 212 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: four ten thirty or or seven eight six, one, seven, 213 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: nine three one ten thirty six one seven four ten 214 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: thirty six one seven nine three one ten thirty. We 215 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: will incorporate phone calls, I promise, but I also want 216 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 2: the story to be told, and I wanted to be 217 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: told in such a way that in case there's someone 218 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: out there who still might know something, there was a 219 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 2: suspect in the case. We're not gonna you know, there's 220 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: there's no happy ending to this story, but it's one 221 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: that I think is important to revisit, if anything, as 222 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 2: a cautionary tale. Uh as your children decide to, you know, 223 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 2: become lifeguards and playground instructors. Even in a community like Warren, 224 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 2: there were people who had designs which cost the life 225 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 2: of a very young and a very innocent and everything 226 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: that we have heard a really wonderful young woman. Back 227 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 2: on Nightside right after the break, you're on. 228 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan rayas Boston's news Radio. 229 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: We're talking with Heather Bish, the oldest sister of Molly Bish, 230 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: and former WBZ TV reporter Kathy Karen, who worked this 231 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 2: case for many years. Molly Bish disappeared on the morning 232 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 2: of June twenty seventh, two thousand and then sixteen years old. 233 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: She disappeared from Cummings Pond and More in Massachusetts, never 234 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 2: to be found, although it is concluded that she was 235 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 2: that she was murdered. I want to start with Heather 236 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: again and get a quick comment both from you and Kathy. 237 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: When did each of you, in your gut think this 238 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: was more than just a young lifeguard walking away from 239 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 2: her post. When did it hit you that this is 240 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: this has the potential of being a horrible situation. 241 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 3: Well, for me, it was when I saw my sister's shoes. 242 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 3: When I knew when I saw her shoes there, and 243 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 3: I was told my mom when my mom had called 244 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 3: me right after the police had called her, which was 245 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 3: three hours later, and I thought, oh, it must be 246 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: some kind of misunderstanding of mistake. And again she's like, 247 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: all right, meet me at the at the pond. You know, 248 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 3: I'm trying to lug an eleven month old baby into 249 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 3: the car, So it took me a little bit longer. 250 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 3: So by the time I got to the downtown area 251 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 3: of Warren, which is where the police station is, I 252 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 3: could see my mom frantically driving up from under an underpass, 253 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 3: which is what the road that leads to the pond, 254 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 3: and I could tell she was frantic. And the first 255 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 3: thing she said to me is her shoes are there, Heather, 256 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 3: her shoes are there. As soon as she said that, 257 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 3: I knew something was wrong, because again I think I 258 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 3: mentioned this before. Mollie did not walk around without shoes on. 259 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: She did not like grounding, she did not like icky feet. 260 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 3: She would not go anywhere unless it was she was 261 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 3: made to go somewhere. 262 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: Okay, chappy, when you know now you're in the process, 263 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 2: you're on your way to Warren. Maybe when when did 264 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 2: your instinct, your reportorial instinct, your gun instinct say this 265 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 2: is something more than a missing lifeguard? 266 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 4: Well, I think you know, once, once we started to 267 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 4: learn a little bit about Molly from Heather and her mom, 268 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 4: Maggie and her dad John and speaking with them, which 269 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 4: you know wasn't in the beginning, but then also learning 270 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 4: from investigators that, you know what, her shoes were there, 271 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 4: the police radio was there still at the beach. That's 272 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 4: the radio she would check in with in you know, 273 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 4: in the morning. And the other thing was that the 274 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 4: lifeguard kit was open, and so why was that lifeguard 275 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 4: kit open? And you think, okay, did someone fake that 276 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 4: they were injured and Molly went to help them, and 277 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 4: then you know, did they overcome her or you know what, 278 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 4: was she attacked? So you know, you have those thoughts 279 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 4: in the back of your head, but you always want 280 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 4: to remain hopeful, and especially for the family, you always 281 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 4: hold out that hope. 282 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 2: And the hope existed for quite a while, Heather, When 283 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: when did you lose hope? Was it when her bathing 284 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 2: suit was recovered three years later? 285 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 3: I mean, I think there's been incremental times of losing hope. 286 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 3: When I had to leave the Pond beach that day, yeah, 287 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 3: it was. It was a lot scarier to think about 288 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 3: Molly being held somewhere, you know, that's something terrible was happening. Besides, 289 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,239 Speaker 3: you know, I thought, you know, they were organizing these 290 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 3: searches of this stuff doesn't happen in out of town. 291 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 3: So that was the beginning of the loss of hope. 292 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 3: And yeah, we we intimittedly, you know, tried to keep 293 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: hoping for Mollie. Elizabeth Smart was found in April, before 294 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: we saw Malli's bathing suit in May, and certainly that 295 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 3: provides us a lot of hope. Yeah, and then you know, 296 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 3: we found the bathing suit. We knew and again there's 297 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 3: some relief in knowing that she wasn't being hurt or 298 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 3: tortured or anything terrible. So yeah, I think it was 299 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 3: incrementally And how far. 300 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 2: Away was the bathing suit heather from where Molly disappeared. 301 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 3: Five miles within the five mile radius. And see again 302 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 3: the local law enforcement wasn't trained. Even the state police 303 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 3: didn't have good working knowledge of recovery. In fact, you'll 304 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 3: hear about this in our future podcast that Kathy and 305 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 3: I are working on. When I interviewed the friends, a 306 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 3: anthropologist who led the recovery, you know, the'se got some 307 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 3: of these state police detectives were just picking things up. 308 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 3: They weren't leaving things in a place so that she 309 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 3: could study what happened. So knowing like where Molly's bones were, 310 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,639 Speaker 3: where that indentation of where she might have been left, 311 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 3: seeing how all the bones were spread out and some 312 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 3: and a like a good little pile of bones was 313 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 3: left on a ridge. There was no species from an 314 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: animal like a bear or anything like that, so that 315 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 3: those are little things that like the average person would 316 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 3: not know. But it's important, I think when you're conducting 317 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 3: any kind of investigation that you're utilizing everybody's expertise. So 318 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: fortunately we did have doctor doctor Anne Marie Myers, who 319 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: was working at the Medical Examiner's office at that time, 320 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 3: who was able to, you know, really identify these critical 321 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 3: elements of the of the scene, and even then it 322 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 3: was so hard to determine like a cause of death 323 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 3: or anything. 324 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 2: Kathy, Karen, I got to take a break for news. 325 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 2: When we get back, I want to you, I believe 326 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: in your photographer actually got the first pictures of what 327 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 2: we believe was the what we believe now was the murder. 328 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: Syne correct. 329 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 4: Yes, it was one of the most difficult days of 330 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 4: my career. 331 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: Dan, we'll talk about that right after the news break 332 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: here at the bottom of the hour. My name is 333 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 2: Dan Ray. We're talking about the disappearance of Molly Bish. 334 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 2: She was sixteen years old, a summer lifeguard at Cummings 335 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: Pond in Warren, Massachusetts. It was June twenty seventh, two thousand. 336 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: It will be it's over twenty five years now, it'll 337 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,160 Speaker 2: be twenty six years this June. And talking with Heather Bish, 338 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: Mollie's oldest sister, and Kathy Cover and former reporter WBZ, 339 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: who has really stuck with this story for a long time. 340 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 2: We know what the result is. We're going to talk 341 00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 2: a little bit more about a suspect, and I want 342 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 2: to find out if both Heather and Kathy are completely 343 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: satisfied that the suspect who is now dead is the 344 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: man who took Molly's life. Will be back on Nightside 345 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: right after this break. 346 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on Boston's news radio. 347 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 2: We're talking about the disappearance in the year twenty June 348 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 2: twenty seven, two thousand of young lifeguard Molly Bish. We're 349 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 2: talking with Heather Bish, Molly's older sister, and Kathy Karen, 350 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 2: a TV reporter many years at Channel four, Channel five 351 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: and Channel ten NBC Boston. Kathy, you and your cameraman 352 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: who I worked with at that time as well, you 353 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 2: were able to get the first videotape of seeing the 354 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: place in the woods where you believe everyone has come 355 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 2: to believe Molly. How did you do that and what 356 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: did you discover? 357 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 4: So I was, you know, working my dayside shift at 358 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 4: wd Z, and I received a phone call from a 359 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 4: law enforcement source saying that I should head to Palmer, 360 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 4: Massachusetts because there was a bathing suit that was found 361 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 4: in the woods on Whiskey Hill. And Palmer is the town, 362 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 4: the neighboring town to Warren, Massachusetts. The location where this 363 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 4: bathing suit was found was about five miles from Cummins 364 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 4: pond where Molly was lifeguarding, and we drove out there 365 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 4: and we were given access to the scene, and you know, 366 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 4: we we walked into the woods a little bit and 367 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 4: there was you know, some crime scene tape around the area, 368 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,719 Speaker 4: and then you could see buried, you know, covered in 369 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 4: leaves and debris, you could see just a little bit 370 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 4: of a blue bathing suit. And when I saw that, 371 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,959 Speaker 4: my heart sank because I remembered from the photos that 372 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 4: the law enforcement had at the command post when Molly disappeared. 373 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: They showed pictures of the bathing suit that Molly was 374 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 4: wearing that day. And when I saw the color of 375 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 4: just a little bit of the fabric that was covered 376 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 4: in the leaves, I was like, wow, that looks like 377 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 4: the same color blue. And on my way out to Palmer, 378 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 4: I had called Maggie bish Molly's mom, and I asked her, 379 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 4: I said, have you heard anything about a bathing suit 380 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 4: being found in the woods, and she said no. Molly's dad, John, 381 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 4: hadn't heard anything either, and they both asked me, you know, 382 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 4: if you hear of anything, please let us know. And 383 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,520 Speaker 4: I had developed that type of relationship where I could 384 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 4: call John and Maggie and run things by them. They 385 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 4: would run things by me on information that they had learned, 386 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 4: and they trusted me, and I trusted them, and they 387 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 4: had asked, you know, if I had learned anything, to 388 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 4: please let them know. And so later on, once we got 389 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,400 Speaker 4: out of the woods, I called them and I explained 390 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 4: what I saw, and they wanted to see the video 391 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 4: of what we had seen. And we drove to Maggie 392 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 4: and John's house and it was really just one of 393 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 4: the most difficult days of my career, and I kept asking, 394 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 4: you know, are you sure you want to see this? 395 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 4: We didn't put any of this on television, and they 396 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 4: wanted to see the video. And the moment Maggie saw 397 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 4: that beings suit, she just dropped and there was just 398 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 4: this guttural release and just sobbed because she knew because 399 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 4: she went with Mollie to buy that bathing suit. And 400 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 4: that's when I'll hope that Mollie was going to come 401 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 4: home safe. Just it just went away at that moment. 402 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 2: So those approximately three years. 403 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,160 Speaker 4: After three years, it was in May of two thousand 404 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 4: and three. 405 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 2: Heather, when did the authorities tell you? As I understand that, 406 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 2: and Kathy can can join this here, because she knows 407 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 2: much more about this than I do. At some point 408 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: the authorities told you that they had people's people of interests, 409 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: but at some point they identified as suspect. Is that correct? 410 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 3: H yeah? Okay, So in twenty twenty one, it was 411 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 3: sort of during COVID. I had a new detective that 412 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 3: was basically going through like the files and the evidence 413 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 3: at that time, supposedly, and they had called and said, 414 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 3: you know, we would like to bring some things of 415 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 3: alleys that we took from a room that we don't 416 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 3: think are necessary for us to keep anymore. And I 417 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,919 Speaker 3: honestly could not remember what they had taken decide for, 418 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 3: you know, nineteen ninety nine computer. So I didn't know 419 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 3: what to expect. And that's when I called Kathy and said, hey, 420 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 3: you want to come over and see what they they 421 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: find with me or they're giving me. And they wouldn't 422 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 3: let her come in my house. She was still, you know, 423 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,440 Speaker 3: working as an investigative reporter back then, so she waited outside. Meanwhile, 424 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 3: while they were showing me the items, which they had 425 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 3: a big box of like prom invitations, body spray, sunglasses, 426 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 3: is cassette tapes, just random minor stuff. 427 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: They said that they had they had taken as part 428 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: of their investigation hoping to find a lead of some sort, 429 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 2: and the case had gone quiet for so long they 430 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: were going to return these materials to the family years later. 431 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 3: So uh yeah. So in that in that meeting, there 432 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 3: was a few state two state police officers that came 433 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 3: to my house and they said, well, we'd like you 434 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 3: to take a look at a picture. And I thought, oh, well, 435 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 3: that's weird because I didn't see the guy in the 436 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 3: way car that day. My mom did, and you know, 437 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 3: I've heard her describe it a million times, but I 438 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: I wouldn't you know, I went to have a visceral 439 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 3: reaction that she may have as she saw the right guy. 440 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 3: So I thought it was kind of weird. So they 441 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 3: ended up having a detective go to my mom's house 442 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 3: simultaneously to show the picture. So you know, we ended 443 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: up getting on a FaceTime call or something and they 444 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 3: showed us the picture and he said like, did you 445 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: ever see him? Did you know who this is? And 446 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 3: I said no, I hadn't, and they said, well, we 447 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 3: showed you this picture a couple of years ago. And 448 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: I didn't even really recall that because it just didn't factor, like, 449 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 3: they never told me anything about this particular person, and 450 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 3: so I didn't really understand. You know, there's a lot 451 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 3: of people that we've gotten tips on over the years 452 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 3: that looked like the person in the white car. Frank 453 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 3: Sumner had. You know, he was an auto mechanic. He 454 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: lived in Spencer, which was or he had his auto 455 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 3: mechanic business in Spencer. He was well known to the court. 456 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 3: He had previously gone to jail for raping a woman. 457 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 3: And he may have had access to a white car 458 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 3: that day. But that's really all I know about Frank Sumner. 459 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: Okay, go ahead, Kathy. 460 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, And we should back up a little bit that 461 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 4: the man in the white car is a man that 462 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 4: Molly's mom, Maggie, saw at Cummins Pond the day before 463 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 4: Molly disappeared. When Maggie dropped Molly off at the pond 464 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 4: that morning, this man was staring at her. Maggie stayed, 465 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 4: Molly stayed in the car until the man went away. 466 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 4: He was smoking a cigarette, and police and artists went 467 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 4: and developed a sketch of a potential suspect in the case. 468 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 4: And so for years there were many persons of interest 469 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 4: in this case. Right the investigation started close to Molly's started. 470 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 4: You know, they looked at her boyfriend, they were looking 471 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 4: at friends, they were looking you know, they questioned family members. 472 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 4: Then there were many known sex offenders in the area 473 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,479 Speaker 4: that were persons of interest. In twenty twelve, well, they 474 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 4: were looking at Rodney Stanger who murdered his girlfriend down 475 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 4: in Florida. He was a fisherman at the pond. And 476 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 4: then it was always persons of interest, persons of interest, 477 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 4: but no one was ever called a suspect in the 478 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 4: disappearance and murder of Molly Bush until twenty twenty one. 479 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 4: And that's when District Attorney Worcester County District Attorney Joe 480 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 4: Early named convicted sex offender Frank Sumner a suspect in 481 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 4: Molly's murder. And as Heather said, he operated several auto 482 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 4: body shops in the area. The man that Maggie saw 483 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 4: at the pond was driving a white car. Sources told 484 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 4: me he had access to a car that looked like 485 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 4: the one that Maggie saw at the pond the day 486 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 4: before Molly disappeared. And unfortunately Sumner died in twenty sixteen 487 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 4: and he was cremated and his there was no they 488 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 4: don't have his DNA evidence, so that that's another issue. 489 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: So we will if indeed this suspect was her killer, 490 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: we will never know for sure. This is so such 491 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 2: a horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible story, whether or not a 492 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 2: suspect is ever, you know, I mean, no one's going 493 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 2: to be convicted apparently at this point. Heather Bish, Kathy Current, 494 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 2: stay there. I want to get a couple of phone 495 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 2: calls and a couple of folks have been holding on 496 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 2: if anyone has any information in this story, we would 497 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: ask you probably to contact the District Attorney's office in Worcester. 498 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: That's where a homicides are investigated here in Massachusetts. It 499 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: probably would be that would be the place that if 500 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 2: you have any belief or knowledge on this, and maybe 501 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: tonight someone does. I don't great hope for that, but 502 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 2: let us see. We'll get some phone calls, I promise 503 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 2: right after this for my guest, Heather Bish and Kathy 504 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 2: Current back on Nightside after. 505 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: This Night Side with Dan Ray, I'm w BZ Boston's 506 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: news Radio. 507 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: My guess their Heather Bish, the older sister of Molly Bish, 508 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 2: who disappeared in June of two thousand remains were found 509 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: three years later. No one has ever been charged or 510 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 2: convicted of her murder. Also Kathy Curran, a longtime investigative 511 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: reporter with WBZ, w CVB and NBC ten in Boston. 512 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: I've got two callers I want to get to if 513 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 2: I can. They've been holding on a long time. I'm 514 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: going to ask them be quick comments or questions. Paul 515 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: and Nantasket. You were first, Paul, go right ahead. 516 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: Hey Dan, thanks for call. 517 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 5: Let me on the phone. Let me let me ask 518 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 5: you a quick questions. These people who who commit these crimes, 519 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 5: they get grabbed, they know that screwed up. And then 520 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 5: you got these doctors who say, yeah, they're rehabilitated. They 521 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 5: let them out and let them out on the street, 522 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,480 Speaker 5: and they do the same thing because all they thought 523 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 5: about in jail was I got to get out and 524 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 5: get another rape or another another whatever they do. And uh, 525 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 5: these doctors are letting these people, are enable on them 526 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 5: to commit more crimes. 527 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 3: Good. 528 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, again, I don't know how we can relate 529 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: that to the Molly Bush case because, uh, this guy 530 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 2: who's who who's identified as a suspect, did have prior problems. 531 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 2: But although he's a suspect. He's not at this point 532 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 2: been convicted. I understand the bigger point you're making, Paula 533 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: and Ma, and if Heather or or Kathy would like 534 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: to comment, I'd love to get their comment both. 535 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 3: I would I would love to comment. I think you're 536 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 3: absolutely right. I think the research shows that these people 537 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 3: who do these egregious sexual acts, particularly on children, are 538 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 3: notabilitated or rehabilitatable. There are problems with our systems, and 539 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 3: for one giant one that could be related to Molly's 540 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 3: case is when Frank Sumner was convicted of rape and 541 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 3: went to jail for rape, when he got out, no 542 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 3: one took his DNA. You are supposed to take a 543 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,880 Speaker 3: violent sex offender's DNA. Now, whether that was a breakdown 544 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 3: with the Probation Department or the Sex Defender Registery Board 545 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: in Massachusetts, I don't know, but that certainly has put 546 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 3: our work to find out if Frank Sumner is this 547 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 3: person that did this to Molly much much more difficult. 548 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: Great great point, Heather and Paul, Thanks for bringing that 549 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: point to everyone's attention. I think it's well taken, and certainly, 550 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 2: Heather back to you up totally on that one. Paul, 551 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: thank you for your call. 552 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 5: Thank you, You're welcome. 553 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 2: Let me go to Steve and Cambridge. Steve gonna get 554 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: you in here, getting a little tight off time. I 555 00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 2: know you've waited a while. 556 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 6: You next on nightside, and I remember the case very well, 557 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 6: and of course everyone in the state feels very bad 558 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 6: for you and your family and of course Molly. I 559 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 6: have two quick questions. What is the most single, most 560 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 6: important piece of evidence that shows this was indeed an 561 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 6: abduction and a murder. That's my first question, And my 562 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:23,880 Speaker 6: second question is can you tell us a little bit 563 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 6: about how Molly's remains were found? 564 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 3: Sure and Kathy's friend to jump in here. I think 565 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 3: probably the most important information that she was taken was 566 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 3: again she didn't put her shoes on. So when we 567 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 3: look at victims and when we look at perpetrators, we 568 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,439 Speaker 3: really try to look at their behaviors, right like where 569 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 3: do they go fishing? Do they smoke cigarettes? Do they 570 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 3: you know? What? What do they do? Are what you know? 571 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 3: So with Mollie, her the first day hit, we believe 572 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 3: us open didn't have her shoes on. She didn't to 573 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: say she took off without shoes. Her beeper which back 574 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 3: in two thousand. That was the way to communicate before 575 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 3: cell phones. And when they did get the dogs and 576 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 3: they went, they followed a sent up up a trail 577 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 3: behind the pond where Mollie was sitting. Her back to 578 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 3: that trail, so someone so she's sitting sloted down and 579 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,360 Speaker 3: she go up a hill. There's like a trail that 580 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 3: goes to a cemetery. You know, people hiked and mountain 581 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 3: biked around that area. You could stand, you know, up 582 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 3: on that hill and watch exactly wait till she has 583 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 3: all her stuff up and like stain and injury or 584 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,399 Speaker 3: or something or it could have been and you know, shoot, yeah, 585 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 3: go ahead, Kathy. 586 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 4: So if you follow that trail up to the cemetery. 587 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 4: Witnesses said that they saw a white car in the 588 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 4: cemetery the day that Molly disappeared. Also, so that that 589 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 4: circles back to the white car theory, the man in 590 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 4: the white car that Maggie saw at the pond the 591 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 4: day before. 592 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 2: And I think see the second question was how were 593 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 2: her remains originally located three miles away or five miles 594 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:15,800 Speaker 2: away three years later? 595 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 3: Well, what happened was there was a police officer who 596 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 3: was no longer working as a police officer locally who 597 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 3: knew some information about Molly's case. He was writing a 598 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 3: book about another young girl who disappeared in Sturbridge, Holly Perinian, 599 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 3: and so he was looking at the similarities, even though 600 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 3: you know, the crimes that occurred were seven years apart, 601 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 3: in different ages and whatever. He's sitting at a bar 602 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 3: with somebody and who's a hunter. The hunter says, oh, 603 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 3: you know mentions you know in their conversations. I found 604 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 3: I did see it blue bathing suit in the woods. 605 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 3: Most people don't think of a lifeguard's bathing suit as 606 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 3: a typical just plain blue bathing suit. They think of 607 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 3: like a lifeguard bathing suit, the red bathing suit. So 608 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 3: he didn't think of it as being Molly's. But when 609 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 3: the ex police officer said, well, don't you know that's 610 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 3: what Molly Bush was wearing that day she disappeared, I'd 611 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 3: like you to bring me to this spot that you 612 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,920 Speaker 3: saw this then, so from there. 613 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's a piece of luck. Steve, thank 614 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:27,560 Speaker 2: you for the questions of you soon you're welcome. Thank Heather, Heather, 615 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 2: I thank you for your time again, and Kathy Kurra 616 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 2: and I thank you for your persistence on the story, 617 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: and both of you joining us tonight at some point 618 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 2: if either of you feel it's helpful, you know, to 619 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 2: try to get this story back out there. Both of 620 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 2: you have my number, give me a call. I make 621 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,719 Speaker 2: our microphones available to either of both of you at 622 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 2: any time, and thank you for the work that you've 623 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 2: done in memory of your. 624 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 3: Could I just add all Molly's We're still taking tips 625 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 3: on Molly's case. And that number to the state Police 626 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 3: is five O eight four or five three seven five 627 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,480 Speaker 3: seven five. So if anyone has any information, no, no, 628 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 3: no piece of information is too small. We're still looking 629 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,399 Speaker 3: for that one that will connect the dots and really 630 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 3: solidify what we already know. 631 00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I will just repeat the number and Rob 632 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 2: will write this down in case anyone missed at five 633 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 2: oh eight four five three seven five seven five, And 634 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 2: that is the Worcester County District Attorney's office the state 635 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 2: Police number there. They are in charge of investigating homicides 636 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:43,040 Speaker 2: in Massachusetts. Kathy, miss seeing you every day, heether, I 637 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 2: hope someday to meet you in person. That you seem 638 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 2: to be just incredibly strong woman to carry on the 639 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 2: memory of your sister. Thank you both very much, Thanks. 640 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 4: So much standing you. 641 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,399 Speaker 2: Thanks, we'll talk again. Here comes to ten o'clock news. 642 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 2: We're going to talk on the other side about a 643 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: three interesting move that the president has made on the 644 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 2: efforts since at ice and what might happen next. Maybe 645 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 2: back on night side after the tenth