Speaker 1: You don't want to be an American idio Scott Coo
Speaker 1: here seven hundred WLW. Will there finally be peace? Peace
Speaker 1: in our lifetime? There's a potential to end the two
Speaker 1: year war between Israel Hamas Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said
Speaker 1: he's going to convene the Israeli government. He's doing that
Speaker 1: today as we speak, to ratify the Seasfire agreement. And
Speaker 1: President Trump may travel at Egypt as soon as this weekend,
Speaker 1: and that's where the talks are being held. To put
Speaker 1: in perspective. As doctor Mark Nzilaco, he's a UTI political scientist,
Speaker 1: also a Middle Eastern expert, former director International Studies Program
Speaker 1: and founder of u d's Human Rights Studies Program. Mark,
Speaker 1: how you been?
Speaker 2: I'm fine? How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm fine. I think peace in the world is a
Speaker 1: good thing. I think when you see the people being ravaged,
Speaker 1: not only from what happened two years ago in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three, to normal Israelis living their lives, to the
Speaker 1: bombing and Susan bombing of those in Gosam, any of
Speaker 1: those people not really other than the fact that they're
Speaker 1: chatteled in this whole mixed up conflict illustrates the absurdity
Speaker 1: and just how cruel we are to other human beings,
Speaker 1: and maybe we'll finally get piece piece at last. And
Speaker 1: the question is will that piece last? Because I'm also well,
Speaker 1: I think the glass may be half full here. I
Speaker 1: think that there's some problems. We'll get into that. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about the deal real quick. Let me outline
Speaker 1: it in case you're not following this or just hearing
Speaker 1: it for the first time. Hamas has agreed to release
Speaker 1: all their remarrining hostages Israel. We will draw withdraw their
Speaker 1: forces back to what they call the agreed upon Yellow line.
Speaker 1: And this is just the first phase of the peace agreement.
Speaker 1: So it's going to be the hostages and then Palestinian
Speaker 1: prisoners get released, and then once that's finalized and within
Speaker 1: forty eight hours, all this is going to end. But
Speaker 1: there are some bombs going off today as a matter
Speaker 1: of fact. So first and foremost is this is phase
Speaker 1: one and that seems to be the easy phase Phase
Speaker 1: two and beyond that's probably the more difficult. Can you
Speaker 1: lay that out?
Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean, there's a twenty point plan. It
Speaker 2: was agreed to a week or so ago. We're elaborate,
Speaker 2: very very elaborate very detail. Well, and the phase where
Speaker 2: now is really was water two widems, you know, and
Speaker 2: the key is really getting Hamas to lay it down
Speaker 2: its weapons and uh, for Hamas to have no future,
Speaker 2: uh in any Palestinian administration that runs that that land.
Speaker 2: And that's that's a long that's a long stretch. That's
Speaker 2: that's when you've laid the foundations for genuine peace. The
Speaker 2: smoke hasn't cleared yet from a two year and very
Speaker 2: as you say, very very bloody, very very violent war.
Speaker 2: I mean destruction on almost unimaginable levels. So I mean
Speaker 2: just psychologically and emotionally. How do people who are already
Speaker 2: each other's throats, how do they recover from this? How
Speaker 2: they move forward? Uh? You know, gritter things maybe haven't
Speaker 2: been done, but maybe the violence was precisely so bad
Speaker 2: that everyone finally wakes up and realizes that we have
Speaker 2: to find a means to coexist and live together. So
Speaker 2: I'll hope that's the goal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you hope so too. You just wonder how long
Speaker 1: it's going to last. And I kind of mentioned that
Speaker 1: in my preamble there. As you know, you're the professor
Speaker 1: in this conversation. You're you're the student of this more
Speaker 1: than I am. I can't count how many deals we've
Speaker 1: had in the past when it comes to different accords
Speaker 1: and the like. And that's not just Hummas, but generally
Speaker 1: peace between Palestine in Israel itself. I mean the also
Speaker 1: Accords back in the nineties, you had Camp David in
Speaker 1: two thousand, You've had summits and roadmaps for peace in
Speaker 1: the Annapolis Conference and Trump's peace plan from five years ago,
Speaker 1: and none of them went anywhere. Why is this the one?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, if those couldn't take
Speaker 2: hold in a much more favorable environment of peace than now, because,
Speaker 2: as I said, a moment ago, to the destruction, level
Speaker 2: of destruction is so great, it's not even mistrust anymore,
Speaker 2: has deep, deep hated hatred. Uh So, one could only
Speaker 2: hope that the violence was so immense that it shocked
Speaker 2: everybody into into a mind a mindset for a peace.
Speaker 2: But no, at this stage, we're looking what hostage you're
Speaker 2: coming back? I mean, it's really intelligence is assessin that
Speaker 2: Hamas may even be able to return all the dead
Speaker 2: hostages because obviously because the yeah, so will we be released,
Speaker 2: which prisoners will be released what will stay? You know. Still,
Speaker 2: the big piece is does Hamas retain any any power
Speaker 2: now both within Gaza, among Palestinians and certainly vis A
Speaker 2: vis uh is real who's not going to stop hunting Hahas?
Speaker 2: You know Israeli? So you're not going to stop hunting
Speaker 2: Hamas because they meet it. They they reached an agreement
Speaker 2: sharmol shake Egypt. So I mean the roots through violence
Speaker 2: are so deep that. Yeah. So it's work as how
Speaker 2: as we can, as the UN says, get the housages
Speaker 2: out and get the aid in. Uh, but be realistic
Speaker 2: about uh, be realistic about the prospects for long long
Speaker 2: term piece.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I just don't imagine Hamas is going to
Speaker 1: go away. Quiet, That's the thing is. And there's a
Speaker 1: couple of points in here too, is Hamas is going
Speaker 1: to lay down their arms and simply guy, I just
Speaker 1: don't see this as kind of like the American Revolutionary
Speaker 1: War that all these combatants lay down their arms and
Speaker 1: go back to being gentlemen farmers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I don't see that at all. Uh, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know there was back in the day,
Speaker 2: but as accords, when you know elements at PLO fought
Speaker 2: that were coming and they had a terrorist background and
Speaker 2: they made a transition from that. But this Hamas is
Speaker 2: a different like his bulla a different beast. Here's the
Speaker 2: point though, Gaza is is rubble and and it really
Speaker 2: needs to be rebuilt UH. And then I should communities
Speaker 2: on this before poort and billions and billions of dollars. Now,
Speaker 2: what happened before was Hamas hijacked, that process hijacked. They
Speaker 2: were able to divert those nieces to missiles and tunnels
Speaker 2: and bombs and uniforms, all those all the belligerency material
Speaker 2: for war. So in the administration of this piece, if
Speaker 2: we move forward on this twenty point plan, there's the
Speaker 2: opportunity and there's really the imperative that the global community
Speaker 2: monitor their expendors, really control that process so that by
Speaker 2: by by administering Gaza UH really marginalizing Hamas there so
Speaker 2: Hamas will be could be at war UH with the self.
Speaker 2: Tell us to the ends up war with themselves. If
Speaker 2: Hamas is to retain is going to try to retain
Speaker 2: some influence.
Speaker 1: And that's the billion dollar question, man, how do you
Speaker 1: prevent that from happening? Because two things off the top
Speaker 1: of my head, Mark Ensilaka would be human nature, because
Speaker 1: you know the nature of of having control as power
Speaker 1: and power as to come, and fear as part of
Speaker 1: that is the currency of power. And so hey, how
Speaker 1: many regimes have we seen in the history of the
Speaker 1: world where someone's taken over and organization has taken over
Speaker 1: and it's become a total power grab. And again it's
Speaker 1: the has and have nots. We take everything, we arm up,
Speaker 1: we scare the hell out of the people, and we
Speaker 1: keep them in line, whether it's this or pole pot
Speaker 1: or anybody else. And then the other thing is just
Speaker 1: out and out graft. Yeah, okay, we're going to have
Speaker 1: what the un oversee this? Yeah, good luck with that.
Speaker 2: Huh. Yeah. You know, there's an old expression in diplomacy
Speaker 2: that the devil lives in the details. It's easy to
Speaker 2: sort of reach. It's not easy, but it's possible to
Speaker 2: reach broad twenty point goals and have some sort of
Speaker 2: pacific vision of the future. But it's in the implement
Speaker 2: patient as you say, how many tons of food are
Speaker 2: going to go in per day? Really, how are you
Speaker 2: going to reconstruct the destroyed sanitation systems? I mean, really,
Speaker 2: there is an opportunity out for Gaza's for palest Indians
Speaker 2: in the new administration to build, not just rebuild Gaza,
Speaker 2: but build a new society there. And they're going to
Speaker 2: have to do it because it's literally rubble and it's
Speaker 2: literally great loss of life, great disruption. But there's going
Speaker 2: to be a you know, there's going to be an
Speaker 2: international relief effort. I hope we're part of that and
Speaker 2: we don't have to take it over, and that would
Speaker 2: be the number one could contribute a bit. We'll be
Speaker 2: involved clearly. The twenty point Plan, as I understand it,
Speaker 2: sees a key role for a peace commission chaired by
Speaker 2: the President of the United States. So we're engaged. We're
Speaker 2: engaged very clearly, but it's in the details. Let's get
Speaker 2: it right, let's do it right.
Speaker 1: But the problem is the other part of the problem
Speaker 1: to us, we've seen in Afghanistan and backwards, is that
Speaker 1: we pay attention. Because we're Americans, We've got the attention
Speaker 1: span of a gnat, and we'll pay attention into what's happening.
Speaker 1: Once everything signed in the press, opportunities over, we'll move
Speaker 1: on to the next shiny object, uh, and then things
Speaker 1: will fall apart in the Middle East, and we'll wonder
Speaker 1: what happened. Is that a possibility?
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, I mean certainly one would in his in
Speaker 2: the Maga world. Is this is a step of involvement
Speaker 2: in other countries wars That exactly what he promised to avoid.
Speaker 2: I mean, how how will his his loyalists, his most
Speaker 2: loyal supporters, how do they see? Uh, this Nobel Price
Speaker 2: comes out tomorrow, It's gonna be fascinating. Uh, fascinating.
Speaker 1: That's how I want to get it done right now,
Speaker 1: because he wants he wants he wants a Nobel prize.
Speaker 2: My guess is that the votes already end. Uh it
Speaker 2: would be interesting though, Uh you know, the name should
Speaker 2: maybe bows around at Jerry Kushner. I mean he's working
Speaker 2: behind the scenes for a long time. I'm not I'm
Speaker 2: not nominating him by any means, but uh, there are
Speaker 2: there is a there was a there has been a
Speaker 2: great deal of behind the scenes fashion in the Arab world,
Speaker 2: and it's gonna be fascinating to see with the passage
Speaker 2: of time what we learned about that process. History books
Speaker 2: are going to be fascinating, but those period time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's doctor Mark Nsoloco at the University of Dat
Speaker 1: and political science professor there talking about maybe finally peace
Speaker 1: in the least between Israel and Hamas and regime change
Speaker 1: there and stopping the bombing, and it could happen relatively soon.
Speaker 1: The Prime Minister of Israel NET and Yahoo is convening
Speaker 1: the Israeli government today to vote on this to ratify
Speaker 1: the ceasefire agreement. The other side, any, I don't we
Speaker 1: don't want sae like a couple of bitter old men here.
Speaker 1: But but you know, we've seen this movie before, not
Speaker 1: just in our lifetime, into previous lifetimes. And you are
Speaker 1: a student of history, your political science professor, and history
Speaker 1: is the best indicator future behavior. And so if we're
Speaker 1: a little jaded and pessimistic about this, it's for good reason.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that this piece won't last. And hell,
Speaker 1: even if the piece lasts for six months, a year,
Speaker 1: two years, ten years, whatever it is, that's better than
Speaker 1: these two sides blowing each other up, taking hostages, killing,
Speaker 1: raping women, holding people hostage, and the other side bombing
Speaker 1: the hell out of civilians.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you just laid out of Panorama. That's really frightening.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I mean it's long term term. One
Speaker 2: thing you would be always sure of the Middle East
Speaker 2: that there's something will flare up, Yes, But at the
Speaker 2: same time, and I don't want to be too optimistic
Speaker 2: about things, but the strategically the Middle East has changed
Speaker 2: a great deal. I mean because of the violence. I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously Hamas has been close to being destroyed, but you know'
Speaker 2: his boiler and the attack on Iran with even the
Speaker 2: United States getting involved attacking the nuclear sites. I mean,
Speaker 2: so you hit this arc of countries that were hostile
Speaker 2: to Israel An Israel sort of you know, took the
Speaker 2: fight to them, and that is weakened these organizations regionally
Speaker 2: and and strategically. Now I'm not simply saying, you know,
Speaker 2: what a wonderful new world, you know, post war World
Speaker 2: War two, uh uh, you know world, But yeah, there's
Speaker 2: been changes in the strategic environment, and maybe that could
Speaker 2: be a basis. I mean, you look at these golf states,
Speaker 2: Goha and all these emirates, all these they're fabulously wealthy.
Speaker 2: They're fabulously wealthy societies. And although there's just an attachment
Speaker 2: of Palesitian cause that I coulds rather than protruci them,
Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of people sort of want
Speaker 2: to get out into their lives and they'd probably rather
Speaker 2: talk to Jared Kushner about real you know, you know,
Speaker 2: Mediterranean seafront real estate. Then the don't want to run
Speaker 2: around in a singing alo roc bar uh and and
Speaker 2: blowing things up, So there could be really environment. I
Speaker 2: always argue that when I wrote my first book about
Speaker 2: violence in the Middle East Fromplex September September eleventh, it's
Speaker 2: looking at a different war, uh, you know, against Alcada
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan. I simply said, you know this will this
Speaker 2: will end when mothers tell their children suicide in the
Speaker 2: act of blowing someone up is not you know, jihad
Speaker 2: in a way of allah. You know when when you dead,
Speaker 2: attitude changes. And one could probably say and he is
Speaker 2: ready sit side too. Within the settler movement, the extreme
Speaker 2: sort of Zionist movements that are that have taken the
Speaker 2: vigilante law in their own hand. There's deep problems in
Speaker 2: these societies that speak against a long lasting peace. But
Speaker 2: one can build on what was in front of us
Speaker 2: right now. Right now there's a lot of rebuilding of
Speaker 2: a lot of destruction, and and make the difficult initial
Speaker 2: steps in these peace press make these count.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you kind of hit on it there.
Speaker 1: And the big question then to summarize what you're saying
Speaker 1: on Tlaco, is this only works if both sides wanted
Speaker 1: to work.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Remember at ended a chapter in my book once
Speaker 2: where one of the leaders back in the day said,
Speaker 2: we don't want peace. Peace would end all our hopes.
Speaker 2: I mean, if that's the mentality you have, yeah, you
Speaker 2: got the you've got the permanent roots for for for
Speaker 2: future violence. But right now, clearly in the house to
Speaker 2: the inside is exhausted. I mean, it's really difficult to
Speaker 2: assess this because journalists have they not had access to
Speaker 2: little many have lost their lives in this conflict reporting
Speaker 2: from Gaza. But you know, one beginning to hear uh
Speaker 2: reports or inklings that Pelsis have turned on Hamas and
Speaker 2: they're saying, you know, yes, here's what these did, this
Speaker 2: great distraction to us. But you provoke them, you know,
Speaker 2: you poke the bear. Uh And so you know, Hamas
Speaker 2: Tamas militants will walk around with scars, greens, cigars are
Speaker 2: on the head and and and the goose step. But
Speaker 2: in point of fact, there is a serious, serious defeat
Speaker 2: for them militarily and politically.
Speaker 1: And all the multi phases are the twenty point program.
Speaker 1: We're just in the first couple right now. This is
Speaker 1: only phase one, So we're a long way away from
Speaker 1: lasting peace at this point, even a ceasfar, because bombs
Speaker 1: are going off this morning as a matter of fact.
Speaker 1: There as we moved to phase two in beyond, it
Speaker 1: was France, I believe, the first loft of the notion
Speaker 1: that Palestinian state whood should be a thing, and some
Speaker 1: other countries signed on to that and absolutely upset those
Speaker 1: of us in the West. How dare you do this?
Speaker 1: They come in two years ago and look what they did,
Speaker 1: and now you want to give them statehood and forget
Speaker 1: everything else. But it sounds like part of this plan
Speaker 1: is eventually that's exactly what's going to happen. I mean,
Speaker 1: if Israel is pulling back to this yellow line, then
Speaker 1: they'll have a final determination where that is. That would
Speaker 1: then mean that some degree at Palestinian state right.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I thought, I thought France and Great
Speaker 2: Britain announcing this a few weeks ago was really sort
Speaker 2: of and forgive me for putting on such plant terms
Speaker 2: sort of you know, media just the media. Start, there
Speaker 2: is no palest in the estate. I mean, when you
Speaker 2: say to me, show me your state, the first thing
Speaker 2: I want to know is where are the boundaries? So
Speaker 2: and then who's your leadership Hamas? I mean, it's nothing
Speaker 2: was going to come on this. Nonetheless, you know, and
Speaker 2: so I understand President Trump sort of trying to push
Speaker 2: back in our allies this tag back you were rewarding.
Speaker 2: You said, exactly, wait, Scott, you're rewarding Hamas by giving
Speaker 2: them this prize. But no, the fact, the long term
Speaker 2: fact is there's going to happen in two states. So
Speaker 2: at some point you're going to so in the process
Speaker 2: of building, you know, when you when you really have
Speaker 2: to just make sanitation systems and water and deliver food
Speaker 2: and you know, just the rudiments of running and government really,
Speaker 2: you know, particularly recovering one right, you can build trust,
Speaker 2: you can see that people can work together, and that
Speaker 2: it has to be to go in building and rebuilding.
Speaker 2: I think we really have to lay the foundations to
Speaker 2: build out for a long term, long term priest. But
Speaker 2: the global community, and that means the United States. What
Speaker 2: President Trump is the chairman of this this Peace Commission Order.
Speaker 2: It's called right, you said this right, the global communities
Speaker 2: have to stay engaged in that. Yeah. Yeah, and that
Speaker 2: means the United States too, Ye turn our back on it.
Speaker 1: We turn our back on It's Afghanistan, it's Vietnam, it's
Speaker 1: all those things. And we just, you know, because the
Speaker 1: public we lose interest in and why are we supporting them?
Speaker 1: Why are we doing this? And it's it's gonna be
Speaker 1: I think, probably more low key than that. It's not
Speaker 1: like we have troops on the ground there, but in
Speaker 1: that regardless of this is something we're gonna have to
Speaker 1: stay on top of for a long time if you
Speaker 1: want it to work. All right, I gotta get going,
Speaker 1: Doctor Mark anziloco ud I was appreciate the time in
Speaker 1: the in the good stuff. I feel like I'm sitting
Speaker 1: in one of your classes here. Thanks again for the time.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Have a good one. Uh yeah, Whether it lasts or not,
Speaker 1: we're going to find out. Although history is certainly not
Speaker 1: on their side. But man, you look at the devastation,
Speaker 1: the destruction, the human casualties, the toll, it's seventy thousand
Speaker 1: plus people. I mean, that's a lot of people dying.
Speaker 1: And now it's over and hopefully you can go back
Speaker 1: to being that gentleman farmer. I don't know if a
Speaker 1: moss is gonna lay their arms down. I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's the thing, because there's always going to be
Speaker 1: that streak. As soon as something goes sideways, they're gonna
Speaker 1: wind up game in more power. It's just the nature
Speaker 1: of the beast. Anyway, Quick time out News on the Way,
Speaker 1: Sloany on seven hundred WLW