1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: It's Nice Eyes with Dan Ray ongoing Easy Boston's news Radio. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 2: Here we go again. It is Bradley Jay in for 3 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 2: Dan Ray on night Side, and our guest right off 4 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: the bat is Michael Coin, the excellent Dean of the 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 2: Massachusetts School of Law and a fan favorite. Thanks for 6 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: being with. 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 3: Us, Always a pleasure, Bradley. 8 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: Oh, you brought some interesting topics to the table today, 9 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: some interesting cases, and both of you out there, I'd 10 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: love to invite you to give your opinion on any 11 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: of these. There's going to be a lot to opine 12 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: on interesting stuff. This first case has got it all, 13 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 2: and that doesn't have it all. It has a lot. 14 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 2: It's juicy, it's weird, it's from North Carolina. Why don't 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 2: you outline it unless you'd like me to outline it, 16 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: but I'd rather have you do it, Frank, Okay. 17 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 3: I mean it's an interesting case because it's the wife 18 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 3: is suing for alienation of affection and what's called criminal 19 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 3: conversation with her now ex husband's girlfriend that he ultimately 20 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 3: left her for. And so it's not the case in 21 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 3: every state that you can actually sue under those circumstances 22 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 3: civilly to recover your damages. But what she's done is 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 3: she brought suit after her husband left her for this 24 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 3: other woman, and ultimately then is successful in obtaining a 25 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: judgment of nearly two million dollars one point seventy five 26 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 3: million dollars. And this was in North Carolina, which is 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 3: one of the states that allows such a suit because 28 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 3: he committed adultery while he was married to her. And then, 29 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: as she sees it, and as the law ultimately saw it, 30 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,559 Speaker 3: with respect to the jury's verdict, that this other woman 31 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 3: took her husband away and therefore owes her damages as 32 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: a result of the effect it had on her marriage 33 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 3: and her financial status and her children's lives. 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: Well, folks, I find this. It's kind of ridiculous, right, 35 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: it ridiculous. Perhaps Dean Cooin can show me where I'm wrong, 36 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: and I want to break it down further, because even 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: as well as you describe it, it's still confusing. So, 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: once upon a time, there was an TikTok influencer, correct, right, 39 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: and that TikTok influencer had a marriage, and then she 40 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 2: is alleged that she had an affair with the husband 41 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: of the manager, yes, okay, and that caused that marriage 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: to break up, and that breakup turns out is worth 43 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 2: one point seventy five million bucks. 44 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 3: Well, but that's not it. I mean the number is 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 3: is how we get to the damage that the individual 46 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 3: and her children have suffered as a result of that, 47 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: in essence breach of contract. Now it's interesting as you 48 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 3: think about it that, well, the breach contract really is 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 3: with the husband, not this third party, but none of 50 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 3: the les less this person has interfered with that contract, 51 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: and in some states only a handful they allow damages 52 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: under those circumstances. 53 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: Okay, the ridiculousness gets comes from the details. For me, 54 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: what is the actual not charged because it's civil? What 55 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: does this fall under? 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:24,680 Speaker 3: It's called criminal conversation and alienation of affections. Criminal conversation 57 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 3: is another phrase for adultery. An alienation of affections is 58 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 3: its name. Should should indicate means that this third person 59 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 3: has taken her affections that were rightly her and her 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: husband's away from her, and therefore, since she has affected 61 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: that relationship, the law in some jurisdictions allows for recovery 62 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 3: for the damages. 63 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 2: It seems to me there's so many gray areas that 64 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 2: it would be hard to come up with a number 65 00:03:55,360 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: like this hard to assign culpability end all. For one 66 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: thing here, this doesn't assign any fault to the husband. 67 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: That seems strange to me, folks. If you'd like to 68 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: tell me I'm right, or if you'd like to tell 69 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: me I'm all what let me know at six one, seven, two, 70 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 2: five thirty. I just think this is the most interesting 71 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 2: and and a difficult case. This is, as thean Coin said, 72 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 2: not a case that can be brought in many states. 73 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 3: North Carolina is one, but it used to be in Massachusetts. 74 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 3: You a long time ago you had the right as well. 75 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 3: And you know the fact is adultery is a crime 76 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 3: still in some jurisdictions. And so what they're looking at 77 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 3: here is the ability for the party to be able 78 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 3: to recover damages when someone else has, in essence interfered 79 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: with that contractual relationship. And and you know that is 80 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: the case in business situations and elsewhere. If you interfere 81 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 3: with my right to whatever I have for rights under 82 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: its terms of the contract, I have the right to 83 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 3: sue you civilly for the damages that flow from it. 84 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 3: In essence, that's what's going on here. It's just as 85 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 3: you point out, well, where's his level of responsibility for 86 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 3: what took place. He's the one that made these promises 87 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 3: to her. 88 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: So one hundred percent of the culpability and this is 89 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 2: a sign to the person who had to pay. 90 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 3: That's correct, because. 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: Right out of the gate, that seems fair, and it 92 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: also seems impossible to ascertain who was more at fault. 93 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 3: Well, and you're absolutely right, there's no doubt. The problem 94 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 3: is he's not a party to the litigation. She's the 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,799 Speaker 3: only party because she's the one that interfered with their 96 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 3: marriage contract. So I understand what you're saying is, how 97 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 3: do we know she wooed him away from her as 98 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: opposed to him running out and looking for someone else. 99 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 2: So he could have interfered our breached that marriage contract 100 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 2: just as much. 101 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 3: That's correct. Well, the likelihood is he did, no matter what, 102 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: whether he was enticed to or not, he's the one 103 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:04,479 Speaker 3: who breached the contract. But the fact is is that 104 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 3: that's going to be handled as part of the divorce, 105 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 3: and oftentimes conduct of the parties is not seen as 106 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 3: such a big deal as it once was when you 107 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 3: looked at that as a significant factor in the distribution 108 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 3: of the marital assets. 109 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 2: Okay, that said, are there states you're aware of or 110 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: what's the deal? In Massachusetts? Can you be sued for 111 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: breach of a marriage contract? In and over and above 112 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 2: the trouble you can just get in for committing adultery. 113 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 3: Well again, you know you're not likely to find recovery there. 114 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: Simply because there are times where engagements and ultimately things 115 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: don't work out. That doesn't necessarily give you the right 116 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 3: to sue civilly for that right. That's why we have 117 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 3: probate courts to try and resolve the various assets and 118 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 3: questions about what should happen post the divorce. 119 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 2: Some of the other reasons some of the claims were 120 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 2: that the victim was caused mental anguish. Okay, that's common, 121 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: damage to her health and well damage to her health 122 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 2: that they have to go into court and say I 123 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,679 Speaker 2: have an ulcer or for example, and it was caused 124 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: by this. How can you say that it was caused 125 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 2: by that? 126 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: Oh, but you know whatever that you're you're highly skeptical 127 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 3: of the claims to begin with, But reckon me me 128 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: personally or yes, you you personally here, but understand you know, 129 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 3: having handled some divorces early on in my career. The 130 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 3: fact is is that it's an incredibly emotional time and 131 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 3: that people do have all sorts of physical difficulties with 132 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: it that manifests itself to lack of sleep, gaining weight, 133 00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 3: losing weight. You point out questions about ulcer, migrant or 134 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 3: all of this. Those are medical issues that relate to, 135 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 3: as they see it, to this new trauma that's now 136 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 3: visited on them. We do this all the time in 137 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 3: civil suits, is try to connect to determine causation for 138 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: the physical issues that follow whatever the injury is. 139 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: I guess my point is, say you go to a 140 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: I don't know, a bowling alley and then you claim, 141 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 2: oh my arm is store or I twisted my ankle. 142 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 2: In order to get damages, you would have to prove 143 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: that the bowling alley he was responsible and be neglatent, 144 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: but mostly the responsibility part. How do you and I 145 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: apply that to this situation. How do you ascertain for 146 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: sure that the physical problem and what percent of the 147 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: physical problem was the result of distress from this situation? 148 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 3: Well, you've got a couple things linked there that I'm 149 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: not so sure should be the bowlin alley. You're going 150 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 3: to have a much more difficult time showing the liability 151 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 3: aspect of it. You know, you twisted your ankle, your hurt, 152 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 3: your arm hurts now from lifting the ball. Well, that 153 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 3: sort of should be expected if you're going to engage 154 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 3: in a physical activity, and neither of those really indicates 155 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 3: any significant damage. So that I think your liability in 156 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: that example is how to determine here this relatively clear liability. 157 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 3: They had a contract, someone interfered with that contract. That 158 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 3: contract has now been dissolved by the courts, so we're divorced. 159 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 3: The question is now what are the damages for it? 160 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 3: And can you, as you see it, we put the 161 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 3: damages and show they were caused by this third person 162 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 3: breaking up their marriage. Well, I'm not so sure it's 163 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 3: going to be as difficult, certainly not as difficult as 164 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 3: a Bowlin Alley example. 165 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 2: Okay, there's one other angles of this that it will 166 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: get to after this break, and I'll tell you what 167 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: the angle is. Part of her damages, the damages arose 168 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: from being deprived having her children be deprived of a 169 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 2: two parent household. We will address that and see if 170 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: that's legitimate in the eyes of our guess. Michael Coyn 171 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 2: on WBZ. 172 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. 173 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 2: That is correct. Bradley Jay here, and we're with Michael coyn, 174 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 2: dean of the Massachusett School of Law, talking about this 175 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: case down in North Carolina where a plaintiff is out 176 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 2: of a correct phrase. 177 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 3: That's correct. 178 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 2: A plaintiff was ordered one point seven five mili four 179 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 2: having for the pain of suffering, et cetera, involved with 180 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: having someone else bust up her marriage. And one of 181 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: the elements in deciding this was And I want to know, folks, 182 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 2: if you think this is legitimate, and if you have 183 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: any idea, and I have some thoughts on why the 184 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: judgment was so high, and we'll get to those legs. 185 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 2: And when we do, I want to know if you, 186 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: if you were on the jury, would you feel the 187 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: same way. Now, part of this was depriving the household 188 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 2: of two parents, depriving her children of a two parent household. 189 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: How do you put a money value on that? 190 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: We'll jet you have to figure. You have to provide 191 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 3: evidence to show how that would have affected the children, 192 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 3: Whether the children then are more likely to prosper in 193 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 3: school and the like, and there are likely statistics I 194 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,119 Speaker 3: would support that version of the events, and also the 195 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,319 Speaker 3: loss of that father in the home. The fact is 196 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 3: is that there it is harder to try and raise 197 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: a child if you're by yourself, as opposed to having 198 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 3: another set of hands. 199 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: All right, but if I were the defense attorney, why 200 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: wouldn't I argue in it hear that this person was 201 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: a detriment to the marriage. After all, he did sheat 202 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 2: and you could find other things. If that guy happened 203 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: to drink or go out to the can't whatever, You 204 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: could find all kinds of attractions on the person, bring 205 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: them back to court and say, you know, this guy 206 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 2: wasn't helping things out at all. A matter of fact, 207 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: the kids are going to be better without this father around. 208 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 3: Well, I think you would argue that, right. I mean, 209 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 3: if he's already shown himself to be untrustworthy. So how 210 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 3: do we know that the children would have benefited from 211 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: having him there? How do we know she would have 212 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 3: benefited from having him there? 213 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 2: So you wonder about the high award and Mike, you 214 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: have some information there that might. 215 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 3: Have irritated I think the colorful facts would likely influence 216 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 3: the jury against the defendant. The language here that it 217 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: says in the lawsuit, the wife accused Kennard of having 218 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 3: a sexual relationship with their husband, and that she engaged 219 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 3: in behaviored designed to seduce him and then flaunted her 220 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 3: fair and romantic relationship in public and private places. I 221 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: would expect that there will be people on the jury, 222 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 3: people in our audience that would find that then this 223 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 3: third person who introduces themselves into the marriage is not 224 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 3: one that's worthy of sympathy. In fact, she very well 225 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 3: may encourage a level of anger, and that in part 226 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: could attribute to the size of this verdict. 227 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,439 Speaker 2: Right, that's interesting stuff. What do you want to talk 228 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 2: about next? We have the Supreme Supreme Court, the SJC 229 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: balking at paying more to public defenders. 230 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 3: Yep, there was still we can talk about booling around 231 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: with that. Yeah, Bryan Wallash, you have got Lindsey Clancy. 232 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: You got a hold a ton of stuff that. 233 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: So let's do the public defenders. As I understand it, 234 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 2: public defenders were making sixty five bucks an hour in Massachusetts. 235 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 2: They jumped it up over two years to twenty dollars 236 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: more than that ten dollars each year. But in New 237 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: Hampshire they're making one twenty five and he Main one 238 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: fifty and hour. So the Massachusetts public defenders, if I'm right, 239 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: are making a lot below other states even nearby. 240 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 3: Well not necessarily, and some of the public defenders have 241 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: spoken to me about this is that you can look 242 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: at New Hampshire and Main's hourly rates and say, yes, 243 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 3: they're much higher, but there are also greater caps on 244 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: how many hours they can build it well, so at 245 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: the end of the day the net may not be 246 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: as sufficient. But the bottom line is whether you start 247 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 3: to look at that hourly rate, it's low compared to 248 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 3: what private attorneys are and that's the problem because the 249 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 3: public defenders are saying, we're not taking more cases until 250 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: that rate make I'm sorry, makes it worth it for 251 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 3: us to be able to take cases and pay all 252 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 3: our bills and pay all our overhead. And so what 253 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: you have right now is an in number of public defenders. 254 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: So cases are still being dismissed because those indigent clients 255 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 3: don't have lawyers and that is a constitutional right to 256 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 3: have that lawyer help represent them. So it's still a mess, 257 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 3: and that's why the Supreme Court is taking another look 258 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 3: at it, because it's what the legislature did is not 259 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 3: enough is it the. 260 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 2: Court's job to do that or is it even something 261 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: they can do now. 262 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 3: I think the Court is troubled at least by the 263 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 3: idea that this is not something necessarily that is in 264 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 3: the court's domain. This is the body of the legislature 265 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 3: should be trying to figure out a better solution than 266 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 3: they have now. In fairness to the legislators, they came 267 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 3: up with a solution. They raised the rate in part significantly, 268 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: they would argue, and also created a structure going forward 269 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: so there'll be more full time lawyers working for the 270 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 3: Committee for Public Council Service so that they won't have 271 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 3: to depend on the private lawyers who are quot appointed counsel. 272 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 3: That's frankly, I don't think it's a good thing. It's 273 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 3: certainly not a good thing necessarily for young lawyers, because 274 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 3: a lot of new lawyers have used this process of 275 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 3: working with at least in part for Committee for Public 276 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 3: Council Service as court appointed lawyers and then built their 277 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 3: own practices over time. So it was a way to 278 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 3: subsidize younger, newer lawyers and their knowledge of the criminal 279 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 3: defense system, as well as then being able to build 280 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 3: their own practices. So I hope it's not restricted that 281 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: much with respect to everyone's going to be full time 282 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 3: moving forward in the future at some point. 283 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: So what do you think, folk, should we pay our 284 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: public defenders more? 285 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 3: It? Does? 286 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: You know it costs money? Do you want to pay 287 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: them more? Remember that there are people charged with serious 288 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: crimes that are not going to trial because of this. 289 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: I understand there were at one point was a backlog 290 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: of three thousand cases and it got down to two 291 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 2: thousand and about nine hundred now. But still that's a 292 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: pretty big deal. By the way, what does it give 293 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: me a ballpark figure on what an average private lawyer 294 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 2: would cost if someone had to get one instead of 295 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: a public defender per hour per hour with five hundred bucks. 296 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 3: Right these days, you're probably looking at three fifty north 297 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: of three point fifty. But also what you also you 298 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 3: find in the district court where a lot of these 299 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 3: cases are, you would see a flat fee arrangement where 300 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 3: instead of an hourly basis I want twenty five hundred, 301 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 3: I want five thousand, it's ten thousand dollars to represent 302 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 3: you in the district court. Whatever the obviously, partly depending 303 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 3: on the complexity of the chargers and the like, and 304 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 3: the likelihood of going to trial. But our an hourly 305 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 3: rate is going to be expensive, but so is a 306 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 3: flat fee. 307 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 2: I'd rather pay a flat fee. I just would anytime 308 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 2: I had a question. I just I could see the 309 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: dollar signs reckon, we'll do the flat fee and say, 310 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: I can call you as much as they want, right 311 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: for the flat flat if. 312 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 3: I don't know you yet, So I don't know, then 313 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 3: I will have a blizzard of questions. 314 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: So where do you fall on that? How much do 315 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: you think they should be paid more? How much do 316 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 2: you think would be fair? Are you good with the 317 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 2: what is it now? What will it be in twenty 318 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 2: twenty six? Eighty five bucks an hour? 319 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think the legislature made a reasonable 320 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 3: attempt to increase the rate with the recognition that these 321 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 3: are difficult times. People don't want their taxes raised. We 322 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 3: need to look for other avenues of revenue for these 323 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,399 Speaker 3: folks because they are still underpaid and will be. But 324 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, the legislature has to 325 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 3: balance where are we going to get the revenue while 326 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 3: also recognizing the constitutional protections the defendants are entitled to. 327 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 3: So I think it's a really tough call. I'm not 328 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 3: prepared to say that the legislature is absolutely wrong. I 329 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 3: wish that they could get together and reach a compromise 330 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 3: on it as would be reasonable for all all involved, 331 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 3: and especially I think that you could make a proposal 332 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 3: where it steps up over time, over a three year 333 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 3: period to make it a little higher. 334 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: Perfect. All right, we'll continue with Dean Mike corn in 335 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: a moment on WBZ. 336 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,719 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's 337 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 1: news Radio. 338 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: All right, let's continue on night sid on Bradley Jay 339 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: And for Dan, we're with Dean Michael Corner, the master, 340 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,240 Speaker 2: she said, school of law. He is an educator, So 341 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 2: now I'm going to ask him an educator question on 342 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: the a in here house on the Orange Line coming 343 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: on in I read an article that said a lot 344 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: that said a lot of Harvard students are upset that 345 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: they're even though they worked hard, they're not getting a's, 346 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: And I thought, hmm, I'll have to ask Dean Coin 347 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 2: about this is working hard, what it takes to get 348 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: an A? I thought you had to get the answers right, 349 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 2: but maybe things have changed, and they kind of have, 350 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: I guess. And you're an educator, this is a thing 351 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: for you. 352 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean things have changed some places, but not everywhere. 353 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'm old enough that I remember 354 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: starting at Boston Latin School where they really did tell 355 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 3: us look to the right, look to the left, one 356 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 3: of you will be left. That's cool. Well, it it 357 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 3: scares you, and it tells you. You bet, you better 358 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: work hard so that you get to stay here. I 359 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 3: think in many places now that's not the attitude at all. 360 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 3: Is that you know, it's harder to get into places 361 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: like Harvard than to get thrown out of places like Harvard, 362 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: and so a lot of schools want to validate their 363 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 3: admissions process by saying they're taking the best and brightest 364 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 3: and therefore they all do well. But but part of 365 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 3: it is, you know, I don't want to sound like 366 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 3: the old guy again, but it's generational, right, this is 367 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 3: in part these are the kids who everyone got trophies 368 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 3: at the end of the season and no matter what 369 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: you did, it was okay. And we didn't even keep 370 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 3: scoring a lot of the game. Yes, just because we're 371 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 3: old doesn't make it not true. It's true, no, and 372 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 3: it does. So that's the problem is that this now 373 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 3: starts in even in the middle school. My son teachers 374 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 3: middle school. And the fact is is that everybody wants 375 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 3: to get those a's, and the question is do they 376 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 3: want to work hard enough that that is required to 377 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 3: get it? You know, I tell my own students, everyone 378 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 3: wants to go to heaven. No one wants to die 379 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,719 Speaker 3: to get there. Well, there's a price that you have 380 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 3: to pay if you really want to do well, and 381 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 3: it's it's sacrifice. 382 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,239 Speaker 2: Now, I thought that that there was a curve, and 383 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: if there were too many a's, then that meant that 384 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 2: the teacher had to make it harder. That there should 385 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: be certain percent of a's is mostly ces and a 386 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: few ds and these a few a's be most sees, 387 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 2: and then it tails off and that's how you can 388 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 2: judge if the course is of appropriate difficulty. 389 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, we still look at the curve when you 390 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 3: think about it and that and I try to explain 391 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 3: that to the students as well. You know, when you 392 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: if C C plus is an average grade, then most 393 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,239 Speaker 3: people are average, right, I mean that's the way the 394 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: world is, right, So we need to make a see 395 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: the average grade, right, so that then for superior performance, 396 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 3: you're in the A and the B range, and for 397 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,719 Speaker 3: deficient performance you're in the D and F range. And 398 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 3: that's I think the way. Still many schools do it. 399 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 3: I know there are colleges where when we look at 400 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 3: the transcripts to admit them to law school, there's still 401 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 3: a lot of rigor in those programs in the same 402 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 3: vein there are other schools, other programs when you do 403 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 3: see the transcripts and the grades are very high, it's 404 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: not uncommon that that's what you're likely looking at is 405 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: high grades from this and you do make it does 406 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 3: make you wonder we really is this exceptional performance or 407 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 3: is this just you know, the grades that are now 408 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 3: expected by the students for less than superior work. 409 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 2: So do you your instructors run into this that people 410 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: are saying, hey, I worked very hard, I should get 411 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 2: an A. Does that happen at your school? 412 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 3: It happens, I think yes, And it happens a lot 413 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 3: of places. Is that? And I tell again, I tell 414 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 3: my students, I know you all want a's. Okay, meet 415 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 3: me halfway, study hard, get the right answers and be 416 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 3: able to put all of this together, because that's what 417 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 3: it takes if you want an A. That's that should 418 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 3: be close to perfection, and it's going to be hard 419 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 3: to achieve perfection. 420 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 2: Are the exams primarily munthiple choice or essay questions? What 421 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 2: kind of exams do you give? No, we still do 422 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 2: law students get. 423 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 3: We use still sort of the classic blue book, where 424 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 3: you've got essays. You also may have I'm shorty answers, 425 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 3: and you may have some a few multiple choice questions. 426 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 3: But even though the buyer exam uses multiple choice questions, 427 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 3: the study of law doesn't lend itself well to that 428 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 3: because when you study law, you find out there's an 429 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 3: awful lot of gray. It's not really black and white. 430 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 3: The students love when there really are some very clearly 431 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 3: defined outside parameters, but most of what happens in law 432 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 3: is it's gray and you have to argue it. You know. 433 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 3: The fact is they quickly learn when you ask a 434 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 3: question that the answer in law school is almost always it. 435 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 2: Depends maybe yeah, so they can argue their case. 436 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: But that is the idea everyone. 437 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,120 Speaker 2: If they can successfully change. 438 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 3: Oh no, we do not change grades unless there's a 439 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 3: mathematical mistake. 440 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 2: No, can they get you to change the correctness of 441 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,199 Speaker 2: their answer? They say, well, I said this because and 442 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 2: if they make a good case where you go, hmm, 443 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: I see your point. Okay, No, they can't overturn that 444 00:24:59,400 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: X mark. 445 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,880 Speaker 3: We grade blindly and so and the idea is that 446 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,439 Speaker 3: you don't know who it is, Okay, once you do 447 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 3: the idea of changing a grade at that point means 448 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 3: that you may be changing it because you like the student, 449 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 3: or changing it because you are grading it because you 450 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 3: didn't like them. They're not studying hard, they're not in 451 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 3: class or whatever. You just it makes it easier that 452 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 3: the old that did grade blindly. And then the only 453 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 3: way you can change your grade is if there's a 454 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 3: mathematical eraror so. 455 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: It does seem that some schools are they don't want 456 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: to kick people out, they want to coddle the students. 457 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 2: Is that? Why is that? Is it because the goal 458 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 2: has gone from educating to making money. We want that 459 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 2: student's tuition, how much we even need to make that 460 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 2: student happy? They're a client, Well, they're not a student. 461 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: They're a client. 462 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 3: And the student in many places seize themselves as a 463 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 3: consumer and they want to get value for their money. 464 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 3: And the value will be the higher grade, as you're 465 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 3: pointing out, So yes, listen, let's be clear, higher education, 466 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 3: the revenue matters. As we can see, and especially as 467 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 3: we now see the federal government pulling back some of 468 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 3: their money at a lot of these institutions. What you 469 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: have is you do have some money crunch at places 470 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 3: where you're saying, you know, are we are the students 471 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 3: getting value? Are they getting what they intend to get 472 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,679 Speaker 3: out of their education? And so, yeah, revenue matters, and 473 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 3: how this all shakes out absolutely matters, and especially at 474 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 3: today's prices for higher education. Uh, people legitimate, legitimately want 475 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 3: to know that that what they're getting for their money 476 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 3: is in fact what they expected. But the great inflation 477 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 3: and all of that, that's a that's a significant part 478 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 3: of it. What you know, we we lament ass that. 479 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 3: You know, it does seem like and I've been doing 480 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 3: this now for almost four decades. That you know, twenty 481 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 3: years ago, thirty years ago, people made up for what 482 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 3: they didn't know through a lot more hard work. And 483 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 3: I do think that that work ethic is slightly less 484 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 3: at times, and that's why you do need to push 485 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 3: people harder so that they can achieve everything they wanted 486 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 3: to achieve. 487 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 2: As your educational set up such that you need to 488 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: be careful about AI and shoosion. Do any students write 489 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 2: papers that could be written by AI? 490 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we have. They are papers submitted. We have 491 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 3: a policy with respect to artificial intelligence. You know, when 492 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 3: I gave them their one of the exams or one 493 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 3: of the mid term or take home question and the 494 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 3: like to work on, I said, you can use ra 495 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 3: real intelligence, don't use AI, because then they're learning how 496 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 3: to use AI. Even as Aly is high school now 497 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 3: and then it carries into college. The fact is is 498 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 3: that this is this is a game changer, and people 499 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,880 Speaker 3: have to be realistic that people are going to take 500 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 3: not even shortcuts. It's not an unavailable means of research, 501 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 3: and it's not even an unwise means of research. As 502 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 3: a first step. Now, you still got to recognize that 503 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 3: it needs to be cited if you're using it, and 504 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 3: it's a first step. You know, there are ways. Lawyers 505 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 3: have always used forms and things like that to help 506 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 3: shape their work, but you've got to recognize that things 507 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 3: need to be changed. Just because it says this or 508 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 3: that that doesn't make it so. One of the questions 509 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 3: that we were going to talk about tonight, I used 510 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: Google AI, I guess it is. It gives you a 511 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 3: little summary. And the second bullet point was just clearly wrong, 512 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 3: clearly wrong. And I looked and I hesitated for a minute, 513 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 3: and then I went just double checked. What's I wrong 514 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 3: or was AI wrong? And AI was wrong? And it 515 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 3: was you know, it says it like, it says it 516 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 3: like it's God talking to you that this is the answer, 517 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 3: and it You got to be careful because you can't 518 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 3: rely on anything exclusively. You got to use the thing 519 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:16,680 Speaker 3: on top of your shoulder. 520 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, by the way, everybody, do not ever have some 521 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: symptoms and try to figure out what it is and 522 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: try to look it up online and do you really 523 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,000 Speaker 2: it's a terrible idea, and you can ask it about 524 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: drug interactions. Yeah, maybe it's probably right factually, but if 525 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 2: you give it a couple of symptoms, three or four symptoms, 526 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 2: it's going to come up with every horrible thing that 527 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: it could possibly possibly be, where your doctor would no, no, 528 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 2: it's not that, not that. Don't worry about that. He 529 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: I doesn't know that. 530 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 3: So it gives you a doctor uses his computer to 531 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 3: check yourself, please too, they do. 532 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 2: And I asked, where do you get I asked, my doctor. 533 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: I wanted to know what is it you look stuff up? 534 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 2: What is your what is your source? Because I asked 535 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: a question and they went type type type type, Oh 536 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 2: what is your source? That's so great? And they told 537 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 2: me and I forgot. I don't even know if I 538 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 2: had access to I don't know if any any old 539 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 2: person like myself can have access to it. I wouldn't 540 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 2: think so. I would think they would pay for some 541 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:17,640 Speaker 2: special medical one. 542 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 3: But there's a couple of good sites. Mayo Clinic has 543 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 3: a terrific was the one they recommend, and web md 544 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: is really not bad. I know it's you know it's 545 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 3: one of the early ones, but at least to give 546 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 3: you some indication should I really be worried about this 547 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 3: or my gonna be old gifts? 548 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: But AI doesn't know you that well, doesn't do your raige, 549 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: doesn't know you. Can't look at you to see the 550 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: see if your skin is I'll pale, if you're sweating. 551 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: Whereas if you go into doctor's office, they see that 552 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: there's a lot of stuff not going wrong with you. 553 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: So I can eliminate a bunch of stuff that a 554 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 2: I cannot eliminate. 555 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 3: But half the time you don't even get to see 556 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 3: a doctor anymore. I know you really don't. You're going 557 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 3: to see someone hopefully, so I'll bet most people actually 558 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 3: start out googling and checking to see before they run 559 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 3: to the minute clinic or the urgent care nearest them 560 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 3: and the like. 561 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, don't you know, don't get me started in uninsurance. 562 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 2: I'm going through an insurance and PCP wilderness now, but 563 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: don't get me started on that because it is it's grueling. 564 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 2: Let's take a break and get to some of the 565 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: other topics that Dean Coin and I plan to get to, 566 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 2: and we'd love to hear from mu six one, seven 567 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: to five, four, ten thirty is our number any old 568 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 2: comics likes. WBZ. 569 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on wb Boston's news radio. 570 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: That is right. 571 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 2: We are here with Dean Michael Coin, Dean of Massachusetts 572 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: School of Law, and we're heading into the next topic. 573 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about a case that's going to 574 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 2: be in the news a lot, probably pretty soon. Why 575 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 2: don't you talk about the Waltz Yeah, well, outline that case. 576 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 3: Brian Walsh has been charged with the murder and dismemberment 577 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 3: of his wife. They were living in Cohasset and New 578 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 3: Years a couple of years ago. She went missing the 579 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 3: next day. He was arrested ultimately after they examined his 580 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 3: computer devices and found a bunch of searches that were 581 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 3: very incriminating with respect to how to dispose of a 582 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 3: body and various things along those lines. There's also video 583 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 3: that supports him buying things in home depot that would 584 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 3: help to dispose of a body. Because what's interesting about 585 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 3: it is the body has never been found, and usually 586 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 3: in a murder case, the easiest thing to prove is 587 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 3: that the person is dead. But so that's the backdrop 588 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 3: on it. And so what's happened now more recently, and 589 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 3: this is why it's going to have a competency here 590 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: tomorrow morning, is that he was stabbed while in through 591 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 3: a waiting trial in prison and from Norfolk County where 592 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 3: he went. Is his lawyer ask the court to schedule 593 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 3: a competency assessment to determine whether he's competent to assist 594 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 3: with his defense, whether he's competent to understand the seriousness 595 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 3: of the charges against him and really be able to 596 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 3: make some very difficult decisions. Do I testify, Do I 597 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 3: not testify the fact is that you have a constitutional 598 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 3: right to assist with your defense and to be able 599 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 3: to cooperate with your lawyer. But if you are mentally 600 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 3: ill to the point where you are unable to do 601 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 3: those things, then you can't stand trial until such time 602 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 3: as you are, assuming that there be some point where 603 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 3: you are. 604 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: Is somebody leging that being stabbed because mental illness. 605 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 3: No, I think. I think what they're saying, or at 606 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 3: least what it appears there saying, is posts that his 607 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 3: mental health has taken a significant decline, which to me 608 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: is understandable that if you were on trial for the 609 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 3: murder of your spouse and now your fellow prisoners are 610 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,839 Speaker 3: trying to kill you, that that would lead to some 611 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 3: serious anxiety and stress and the rest of it. So 612 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 3: I think what the concern is is there from the 613 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 3: lawyer's standpoint is well, we need to know that he's 614 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 3: capable and competent to make these decisions, because if he's 615 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 3: not and he's making decisions that later on he's going 616 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 3: to challenge that he wasn't in the right state of 617 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 3: mind to be able to do this, well, then we're 618 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 3: going to start all over again. As he looks to 619 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 3: raise those issues on appeal. You know, the most common 620 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 3: charge in a criminal case once someone is convicted is 621 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 3: in effective assistance accounts. So I think it's almost a 622 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 3: belt and suspendus approach. Let's make sure that he's sufficiently 623 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 3: competent that we can go forward here. 624 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 2: That happens all the time, right people. Judges won't make 625 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 2: sure they will air on the side of caution in 626 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 2: these sorts of situations. Absolutely, Okay, let's go to Jane 627 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 2: and Shrewsbury. Thanks for calling. Six one seven two five, 628 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 2: Hi Jane. 629 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 4: Hi Bradley High Professor. Good, how are you doing? Good 630 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 4: to hear you in prime time? Used to hear you 631 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 4: on the midnight hour, I like, j Yeah, that was 632 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 4: kept us up late, but it was. 633 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: So. 634 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,920 Speaker 4: I don't want to get too specific, but I had 635 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:51,760 Speaker 4: a couple of questions about when they're well, I'll just 636 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 4: outline that there's a question of a forged will, a 637 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 4: poorly forged will. I would say that affects my family, 638 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 4: and I'm just curious if the person who's got the 639 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 4: forged will, who's you know, trying to defraud in the state, 640 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:14,520 Speaker 4: if her attorney has liability, if if they ask her 641 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 4: or even if they just look at the will and say, 642 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,959 Speaker 4: this thing is so obviously bogus. Do they have any 643 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 4: liability or cult ability if I could sue them? And 644 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 4: also if they know that the person destroyed an original 645 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 4: because my family has a copy of a will, but 646 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 4: no original, and the original was probably at the deceased 647 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 4: person's house, which is where the person who got the 648 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 4: forged will lives. So allegedly, yes, all allegedly, and litigators 649 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,200 Speaker 4: on both sides. The person is too, you know, a 650 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 4: primary attorney when she filed the will, and then a 651 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 4: litigator after my family objected. 652 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 2: Yet I'm in the weeds, but a little bit me. 653 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 3: I'd tell the basic issue. And this happens a lot. 654 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 3: What's interesting about the question is, Uh, we had the 655 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 3: appeals court argue had arguments for on six cases at 656 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 3: the law school last Wednesday, maybe Thursday, Thursday, and one 657 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,200 Speaker 3: of the cases dealt with this. This is not unusual 658 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 3: where there's a question of the forged instrument and whether 659 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 3: there was undue influence and really what happened with the 660 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,280 Speaker 3: original document that some people have. So this this happens 661 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 3: a lot more often than you'd realize. I don't think 662 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 3: the lawyers have any culpability. At that point, you would 663 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 3: almost have to say that they were, you know, in 664 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 3: essence coke and spirators here and assisted with the fraud. 665 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 3: So a you haven't even proven fraud yet. Which you've 666 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 3: got is a highly suspect document that's been executed, and 667 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 3: so they're entitled to have the lawyer defend him in 668 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,959 Speaker 3: as long as the lawyer is done their sufficient investigation 669 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 3: that they're satisfied under what we call rule eleven, that 670 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 3: there's a valid basis to move forward. They're going to 671 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 3: represent the client. So the question really becomes what does 672 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 3: that person know and what did they do? Because assuming 673 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 3: you can show that they have in fact forged the document, 674 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,759 Speaker 3: well then you would have recourse against them obviously as 675 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 3: well as likely invalidating the instrument. 676 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 4: The question yeah pretty much one other thing though, So 677 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 4: the person inherited money outside of the will, outside of 678 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 4: the probate, a state could if they're found to have 679 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 4: used a fraudulent will and they've perjured testimony and what 680 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 4: have you, and there's a forgery, can my family sue 681 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 4: them for the money that they already inherited outside of 682 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:53,479 Speaker 4: the will. 683 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 2: That make question So if you can hold on, and 684 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: I hope you can. We'll answer that after this on 685 00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 2: WBZ