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Speaker 1: Welcome to Get Connected with Nina del Rio, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about fitness, health and happenings in our community on

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Speaker 1: one oh six point seven Light FM.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to get connected. As far too many

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Speaker 2: people know from experience, maybe you working for a toxic

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Speaker 2: boss takes a toll. You may be highly accomplished, highly experienced,

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Speaker 2: and still wind up feeling beaten down and hopelessly trapped.

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Speaker 2: My guest is doctor Laura Hamley Lovett for her book

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Speaker 2: I Wish I'd Quit Sooner. Practical Strategies for Navigating and

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Speaker 2: Escaping a Toxic Boss. Doctor Laura Hamley Lovett, thank you

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Speaker 2: for being on the show.

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Speaker 3: My Pleasure, Nina. Glad to be here.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Laura Hamley Lovett is an organizational psychologist and expert

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Speaker 2: on workplace culture, career development, toxic leadership, and burnout. Along

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Speaker 2: with her twenty five years of experience, she holds a

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Speaker 2: PhD in Industrial organizational psychology from the University of Calgary,

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Speaker 2: where she is currently an adjunct professor. Let's define what

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Speaker 2: we're talking about. To begin with, doctor Laura, what would

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Speaker 2: you say is the difference between someone who is not

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Speaker 2: easy to work for, who's difficult and someone who is toxic.

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Speaker 4: That is one of the most important differentiators that I

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Speaker 4: learned through this research and through my client experiences. So

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Speaker 4: I've worked with hundreds of clients and my teams worked

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Speaker 4: with thousands. And there's a lot of difficult bosses out

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Speaker 4: there because people get promoted into leadership roles because they're

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Speaker 4: good at their job, and then they get promoted and

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Speaker 4: they're frustrating to work with. They're not good communicators, maybe

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Speaker 4: they micromanage a bit, this is common commonplace. But the

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Speaker 4: thing is they can develop into better leaders. They can

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Speaker 4: get the training, they can get the coaching, they have

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Speaker 4: the awareness to improve, and they don't intend to cause harm.

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Speaker 4: So if they found out they were harming someone, they

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Speaker 4: would be really upset about that. Whereas a toxic boss,

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Speaker 4: they do not have that self in site, and they

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Speaker 4: cause harm and it gets worse over time. So their

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Speaker 4: ongoing behaviors harm people's engagement, productivity, and well being. And

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Speaker 4: they're not open to development. Even if they say they are,

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Speaker 4: they're not, and they should not be in people leadership roles.

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Speaker 4: It's dangerous and it's harming people's physical and mental well

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Speaker 4: being along with the culture of the organization.

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Speaker 2: Even if their intention is benign. Can you drill down

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Speaker 2: a little bit about the toll of working for toxic people?

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Speaker 2: What does it do to you as an employee long term?

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Speaker 4: That is a great question. So interviewing people from throughout

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Speaker 4: North America who had survived a toxic boss and serving

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Speaker 4: hundreds of people, we found that there's a number of

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Speaker 4: impacts and I categorize them. There's the mental health impacts,

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Speaker 4: so people suffer from anxiety as a result. Sleep disruption

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Speaker 4: is another big one. Self confidence is impacted and depleted.

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Speaker 4: And then we get the physical oftentimes blood pressure, digestion,

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Speaker 4: things like that, headaches, tension, muscle tension is a big one,

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Speaker 4: and the list goes on. So there's all of these

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Speaker 4: impacts on your health and well being. But there's also

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Speaker 4: impacts on your memory, your productivity.

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Speaker 3: You start to lose.

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Speaker 4: Sleep and then you start to live in an anxious state,

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Speaker 4: and then your.

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Speaker 3: Problem solving abilities we call them cognition.

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Speaker 4: Your cognition isn't as good, You're not as sharp as

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Speaker 4: you once were, and then that can make you perform

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Speaker 4: less well in your job, which is a self fulfilling prophecy.

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Speaker 3: Because the toxic boss, if they have a hit.

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Speaker 4: A mark on you. They want you to quit, so

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Speaker 4: they want to have evidence for you to be let go.

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Speaker 4: That's their desire, and sometimes they'll end up just firing you.

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Speaker 4: But that's typically the path that this takes.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting how familiar this will sound to people. According

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Speaker 2: to a twenty twenty three survey, eighty seven percent of

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Speaker 2: professionals had at least one toxic boss during their career.

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Speaker 2: Something you cite in the book A bit of a sidebar,

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Speaker 2: How is it that some of these people end up

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Speaker 2: in long term positions of leadership? Why does it seem

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Speaker 2: like domineering personalities? Are people who are willing to exert

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Speaker 2: pressure end up succeeding or moving up the ladder?

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Speaker 3: It's I heard so.

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Speaker 4: Adam Grant is an organizational psychologist as well, like I am,

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Speaker 4: and most people know him. But he says the Babbel effect,

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Speaker 4: and I totally agree with Adam on that.

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Speaker 3: It's that they're usually.

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Speaker 4: Talkers, and they're good at influencing, they're good at selling themselves.

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Speaker 3: They have confidence. People like confidence. They grab onto confidence

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Speaker 3: because there's.

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Speaker 4: A lot of uncertainty out there and it gives us

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Speaker 4: a sense of okay, you know, I'm going to follow

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Speaker 4: this person because they're confident, and they should be in

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Speaker 4: a leader role because they'll help bring in more money basically,

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Speaker 4: when it comes down to it. But the Babbel effect

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Speaker 4: is not good because when you're not actively listening, you're

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Speaker 4: not having compassionate empathy. You're treating human beings like resources.

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Speaker 4: You're not going to have the best culture you can have,

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Speaker 4: and you're not going to bring out the best in

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Speaker 4: your human beings, because it's human beings that'll exceed and

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Speaker 4: make your company grow.

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Speaker 3: Despite AI.

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Speaker 4: AI is a resource and a great tool, but it's

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Speaker 4: the humans that are coming out with the ability to

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Speaker 4: move things forward in our world.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to get connected on ONEHO six point seven

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Speaker 2: light FM, I Meana del Rio. I'm speaking with doctor

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Speaker 2: Laura Hamley Lovett. She's an organizational psychologist and an expert

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Speaker 2: on workplace culture, career development, toxic leadership, and burnout. She's

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Speaker 2: also co founder of the with her movement focused on

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Speaker 2: ending violence against women and girls. Her new book is

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Speaker 2: I Wish I'd Quit Sooner. Practical Strategies for navigating and

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Speaker 2: escaping a toxic boss, so weighing options. It's never too

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Speaker 2: early to start documenting the issues you're having in the office.

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Speaker 2: What are something things to keep in mind as you're

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Speaker 2: taking notes.

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Speaker 4: Never take them on a work device. So you think

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Speaker 4: I'll take them on my work laptop, I'll put it

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Speaker 4: in a file in an area that's saved on my

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Speaker 4: desktop or something that no one else see. Don't do

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Speaker 4: it because if the toxic boss lets you go, you

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Speaker 4: lose that laptop immediately. That's happened to my clients. So

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Speaker 4: you need to do it on a personal device. Do

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Speaker 4: it in a journal. But no, what was the incident,

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Speaker 4: what happened, what was the date of it, what platform

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Speaker 4: was it on? Was it on teams? Was it in

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Speaker 4: a face to face meeting? Who else was there or

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Speaker 4: was it just me and the boss? And how did

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Speaker 4: it impact me? And by filling out this sort of

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Speaker 4: table or template, we start to see a pattern emerge

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Speaker 4: and we can track it and go back to it

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Speaker 4: over time, because as you get deeper and deeper into this,

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Speaker 4: you start to forget the extent of it, and your

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Speaker 4: sleep is impacted, so you're not as good at remembering

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Speaker 4: all those details. And if you do decide to go

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Speaker 4: the reporting it to HR or the legal row if

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Speaker 4: the boss is doing constructive dismissal, or if you're let

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Speaker 4: go with an unfair severance or without a severance.

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Speaker 3: You want all these details.

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Speaker 4: And the more that you've tracked it over time, the

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Speaker 4: better you'll be able to support whatever case you put

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Speaker 4: forward HR.

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Speaker 2: Since you bring them up, they are not an independent arbiter.

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Speaker 2: What would you say about HR's role and what to

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Speaker 2: keep in mind.

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Speaker 4: HR is part of the organizational fabric. They're within the

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Speaker 4: political system, and oftentimes HR is trapped in the middle,

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Speaker 4: especially when the toxic boss is at a higher level

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Speaker 4: than them or even an equal level, or maybe the

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Speaker 4: CEO is in favor of the toxic boss because the

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Speaker 4: toxic boss is bringing in lots of money and projects.

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Speaker 4: And so what happens is HR, here's this complaint, and

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Speaker 4: HR takes it seriously because a lot of people go

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Speaker 4: into HR because they have empathy and compassion for humans.

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Speaker 4: And then what happens is the HR leader can't do

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Speaker 4: anything because it's squashed from up top. And then people say, well,

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Speaker 4: HR is not doing their job. That's not true. It's

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Speaker 4: because they're trapped and most HR, not all of them.

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Speaker 4: Because you can have toxic bosses in HR by the way,

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Speaker 4: but most HR does have best interests at heart, but

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Speaker 4: is trapped in a political system.

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Speaker 2: Let's say you ultimately decide to quit when creating a timeline,

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Speaker 2: why do you suggest running it by friends or trusted colleagues.

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Speaker 3: That's a great question.

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Speaker 4: It's because oftentimes we can make the timeline unrealistic, either

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Speaker 4: too short or too long. So too short is I'm

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Speaker 4: going to get out of here within two months? Well,

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Speaker 4: you know you probably you may not, right because you

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Speaker 4: don't want to just run to the next thing.

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Speaker 3: You want to do your due diligence.

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Speaker 4: You want to make sure you're getting into a healthy workplace.

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Speaker 4: And I have a chapter that gets at that at

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Speaker 4: how to never again report to a toxic boss?

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Speaker 3: Because you I want to avoid that.

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Speaker 4: So you want to be able to take your time,

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Speaker 4: do your due diligence, put your best foot forward in

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Speaker 4: applications and in interviews, not just spam hundreds of resumes randomly.

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Speaker 4: And you want enough time to be able to do that,

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Speaker 4: and your energy will be depleted under a toxic boss.

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Speaker 4: So it's the little things that matter. But doing those

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Speaker 4: things each week and then some people set a good

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Speaker 4: ridden state too far out and let me tell you,

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Speaker 4: if it's a truly toxic boss, you're not going to

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Speaker 4: be able to last a year.

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Speaker 3: It's just going to get worse.

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Speaker 4: So we need to get that good ridden state as

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Speaker 4: soon as possible, but realistic.

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Speaker 2: If you get fired in the meantime, it can be

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Speaker 2: a huge shock. But a common thread from almost every

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Speaker 2: client you've worked with is that when they look back,

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Speaker 2: they were grateful for that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, And I run a Canada career counseling practice

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Speaker 4: for the last sixteen years, and throughout Canada and into

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Speaker 4: the US as well, We've seen at time and time

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Speaker 4: again the stories of they are let go, they're shocked,

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Speaker 4: they're in grief, they feel ashamed, and then a year later,

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Speaker 4: so glad that happened. I'm in a much better place.

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Speaker 4: And that's why the chapter is titled when your Toxic

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Speaker 4: Boss Decides for you. And it can be a really

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Speaker 4: good thing, but I help people work through the emotions

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Speaker 4: of it, get themselves into seated position again, figure out

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Speaker 4: a path forward. In the book, I wish I'd quit

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Speaker 4: sooner because it's not easy.

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Speaker 2: PTSD, though, is a real thing. I remember a few

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Speaker 2: years ago running into someone who had been fired his

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Speaker 2: manager was terrible. He had been fired years before, and

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Speaker 2: the first thing he started talking to me about was

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Speaker 2: how terrible it was and how he's doing fun and

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Speaker 2: how he's fun and how terrible it was. And my

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Speaker 2: first thought was, you are not fine. What does a

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Speaker 2: recovery plan look like.

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Speaker 4: A recovery plan is super important because the longer you've

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Speaker 4: worked for the toxic boss, the more trauma you've experienced.

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Speaker 4: In my research, I've even had people only work for

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Speaker 4: a few months and it's been devastating, Okay, and then

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Speaker 4: the higher end of a toxic boss would be two

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Speaker 4: to three years. Three years would be a long time,

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Speaker 4: So I'm just giving you context. But the toxic boss

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Speaker 4: erodes your well being and you're left with sometimes trauma, right,

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Speaker 4: a trauma effect, and you need to get your physical, mental,

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Speaker 4: emotional health back intact. And I have a whole buffet

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Speaker 4: of options. I have sort of the small things you

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Speaker 4: can do immediately. I have the bigger things, the bigger

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Speaker 4: time investments, and I have a whole suite of options

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Speaker 4: that have worked for other people. Because everything I do

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Speaker 4: is practical. It's all about what's worked for other people,

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Speaker 4: what's evidence based, and what works for me might be

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Speaker 4: different than what works for Nina. So we got to

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Speaker 4: really look at each individual. And I really help guide

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Speaker 4: people through their recovery because it can take months and

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Speaker 4: months of effort, sometimes even more. But I don't like

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Speaker 4: to say that. I don't want to scare people because

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Speaker 4: if you get on the recovery journey, things will get

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Speaker 4: better week by week.

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Speaker 2: You also discuss finding a healthier work situation as we

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Speaker 2: wrap up. What are some warning signs during the interview

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Speaker 2: process or what should you notice about the organization's culture

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Speaker 2: that you're going into.

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Speaker 3: Do your due diligence.

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Speaker 4: There are signs of a healthy culture, and it's not

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Speaker 4: what's put on the website. It's usually all their values

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Speaker 4: are great. Every culture has great team values, teamwork. You know,

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Speaker 4: we value wellness, whatever it is that they value. Be

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Speaker 4: careful to do your due diligence. Look at glassdoor, look

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Speaker 4: at talking to people who have worked there or are

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Speaker 4: currently working there. Ask the questions, and also trust your

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Speaker 4: intuition in the hiring process. In the interviews, does the

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Speaker 4: toxic boss constantly interrupt you? Do they respect your time

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Speaker 4: or are they running grossly late and keeping you waiting

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Speaker 4: for way longer than they say they will, and if

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Speaker 4: you get the sense that something is off or too

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Speaker 4: good to be true, trust that intuition.

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Speaker 2: There is so much more in the book, including all

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Speaker 2: kinds of checklists and ways to figure out how to

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Speaker 2: make your plan for a real solid exits strategy. In

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Speaker 2: I Wish I'd Quit Sooner by doctor Laura Hamley Lovett,

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Speaker 2: Practical Strategies for navigating and escaping a toxic boss. Thank

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Speaker 2: you for being on Get Connected.

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Speaker 3: My Pleasure, Stay Well.

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Speaker 1: This has been Get Connected with Nina del Rio on

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Speaker 1: one oh six point seven light Fm. The views and

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Speaker 1: opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the views

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Speaker 1: dot com. Thanks for listening.