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Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Doctor Wendy Wall Show on KFI

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Speaker 1: AM six forty live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app Well,

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Speaker 1: the Big Game is next week, Yes, Sunday, February eighth.

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Speaker 1: That is, the kickoff is scheduled around six point thirty

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Speaker 1: Eastern that's three thirty hour time in Santa Clara, California.

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Speaker 1: If you've been living under a rock, you might not know.

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Speaker 1: It's a Seattle Seahawks against the New England Patriots. This

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Speaker 1: is actually revisiting a pairing and marks the Patriots' twelfth

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl appearance. But this is not a sports cast.

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Speaker 1: Let me just say this. While the stadium holds just

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Speaker 1: under seventy thousand people, it will probably be watched by

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Speaker 1: as many as one hundred and twenty five million people,

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Speaker 1: and not always for entertainment. The American Gaming Association projects

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Speaker 1: a record one point seven six billion that's with a

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Speaker 1: b billion legal legal legally wagered on the Super Bowl

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Speaker 1: this year. So here's some stats for you. A twenty

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Speaker 1: two percent of United States adults say that they've bet

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Speaker 1: on sports in the past year. Forty eight percent of

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Speaker 1: all men aged eighteen to forty nine have active online

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Speaker 1: sports book accounts. Just under half of people in America

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Speaker 1: have placed a bet on a sporting event at least

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Speaker 1: once in their lifetime. I need to talk to an

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Speaker 1: official on this because this shore sounds like an addiction

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Speaker 1: to me. I'd like to welcome a friend of the show,

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Speaker 1: doctor Timothy Fong, a medical doctor, UCLA Health psychiatrist and

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Speaker 1: co director of the UCLA Gambling Studies Program. Doctor Pong,

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Speaker 1: we have a problem on our hands, don't we.

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Speaker 2: We certainly have an issue, a problem for some, absolutely

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Speaker 2: a topic of discussion for everyone, and thanks for having

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Speaker 2: me back.

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Speaker 1: So from a research perspective, first of all, what is

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Speaker 1: it about the Super Bowl that makes it uniquely a

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Speaker 1: high risk event for people who might be vulnerable to

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Speaker 1: a gambling addiction.

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Speaker 2: Well, it literally is the super Bowl of gambling. It's

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Speaker 2: the end of the football season, and for the last

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Speaker 2: sixty years it's been taught about as the last place

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Speaker 2: to quote, make a bet before you go into the offseason.

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Speaker 2: But you combine that with all the massive popular culture

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Speaker 2: over the last twenty years, with the ads, the social media,

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Speaker 2: the networks, it has become a national holiday, not just

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Speaker 2: an event. It is a national event of epic proportions,

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Speaker 2: And it makes sense that sports betting and gambling has

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Speaker 2: become attached to it because that's what we as Americans do.

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Speaker 3: We love our gambling for sure.

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Speaker 1: And as I just mentioned, we are seeing a record

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Speaker 1: amount of money being wagered. Do you think the mobile

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Speaker 1: and in game like during the game betting has changed

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Speaker 1: maybe the profile of an addict compared to the old

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Speaker 1: days where maybe you had an office pool or you

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Speaker 1: had to go to Vegas to do it. The instantaneous

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Speaker 1: part of it has that changed?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, And it's all in the last four to

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Speaker 2: five years. And a lot of us started in twenty

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Speaker 2: eighteen where states can start to legalize sports betting. But

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Speaker 2: just in the last three to five years, we see

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Speaker 2: massive rise in the number of calls to gambling helplines,

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Speaker 2: people looking for help online, people coming into clinics that

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Speaker 2: I never.

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Speaker 3: Would have imagined before.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about young people who've never set foot in

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Speaker 2: front of a casino ever coming in with thousands of

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Speaker 2: dollars of debt, emotional pain and harm caused by gambling.

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Speaker 2: So absolutely you know that one of the risk factors

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Speaker 2: that drive more addictive, harmful behavior is normalization of that behavior.

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Speaker 2: Combined with the reduced perception of harm when you make it, Hey,

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Speaker 2: everybody's doing it, it's no big deal. Everybody wins super easy,

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Speaker 2: and you don't regulate it, you don't educate people how

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Speaker 2: to do it. The most vulnerable folks who do this

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Speaker 2: absolutely will.

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Speaker 3: Develop a gambling problem.

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Speaker 2: Vast majority of people who do this recreationally do not

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Speaker 2: develop harm. Again, from two to six percent of the

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Speaker 2: population that do gamble on sports on a regular basis,

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Speaker 2: it can create long lasting addiction.

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Speaker 1: So the two things you're looking out for is normalizing it,

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Speaker 1: which where it has it's legal in many, many, many states,

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Speaker 1: and even if you're not in one of those states,

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Speaker 1: you can go online and do it right. So there's

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Speaker 1: the normalization and then this underestimation of the harm that's

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Speaker 1: out there. You know, not too long ago, doctor Fong,

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Speaker 1: we had you on the show talking about the epidemic

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Speaker 1: of marijuana addiction in our culture and how that use

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Speaker 1: has been normalized in our culture. Do you see a comparison,

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Speaker 1: Like when you're talking about addictions, people usually think about alcohol,

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Speaker 1: hard drugs, but gambling is not a substance. But how

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Speaker 1: is it the same for the brain.

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Speaker 2: It's the same because it does the exact same thing

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Speaker 2: to our neurotransmit our neurochemicals. Essay, alcohol, tobacco, cannabis does.

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Speaker 2: It tickles the dopamine rewards center. It activates the region

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Speaker 2: of our brain of anticipation. We all love instant rewards,

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Speaker 2: we love winning, we love competition. So in the DSM

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Speaker 2: five our handbook, gambling disorder is filed as an addicted disorder,

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Speaker 2: just like any other substance use disorder, so it's seen

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Speaker 2: even though there is not a drug injestice, the drug

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Speaker 2: that's happening is our own naturally made endorphins in dopamine

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Speaker 2: that come about when it's exposed a gambling behavior.

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Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, it's only like four to six

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Speaker 1: of the percent of the population that's susceptible to it.

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Speaker 1: What's different about their brains compared to the rest of us?

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Speaker 1: And before you answer that, I want to tell you

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Speaker 1: a story. One time I was on a Caribbean island

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Speaker 1: where they had a casino and I saw in the

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Speaker 1: gift shop a very expensive designer bathing suit and I

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Speaker 1: said to myself, I am going to play blackjack until

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Speaker 1: I win enough money to buy that bathing suit. And

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Speaker 1: I had a little mini winning streak after a while,

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Speaker 1: and I had enough money to buy the bathing suit.

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Speaker 1: I got up from the table, I bought the bathing suit,

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Speaker 1: and I never went back to gamble again. I accomplished

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Speaker 1: my goal. I obviously don't have that gene, right, But

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Speaker 1: somebody else might get high from that string of winds.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: What's different about their brain?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's two things. Number one, just the drive to

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Speaker 2: seek rewards and gamble. They're just more interested, they're more excitable,

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Speaker 2: they're more activated. But combine that with the breaks of

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Speaker 2: the brain that aren't working as well, so maybe they

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Speaker 2: lose or they spend more than they ought to and

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Speaker 2: instead of stopping and saying that's it, no more, I

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Speaker 2: won't do this again, there's this drive, this compulsion to

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Speaker 2: chase losses, to get back to even to say no,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be screwed over by the casino.

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Speaker 3: I have to get my money back.

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Speaker 2: So that combination of the drive to seek gambling and

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Speaker 2: rewards instead of just buying things, combined with the loss

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Speaker 2: of control or the ability to say no, it's not willpower.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing to do with morality or whether you're you're

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Speaker 2: a good person or you're greeting.

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Speaker 3: It really has to do with your ability to manage.

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Speaker 2: Wins and losses, and resiliency and.

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Speaker 3: Competition and escape sort of things like that.

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Speaker 2: So biological, psychological social risk factors for gambling disorders, just

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Speaker 2: like there are for any other medical disorders or any

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Speaker 2: other mental health conditions. But what's changed again is our

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Speaker 2: world with the phone and the instant access to gambling

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Speaker 2: and gambling, not just on sports books or sports betting,

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Speaker 2: but social casino games or other forms of gambling now

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Speaker 2: disguised as prediction markets, which are quote investment tools, but

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Speaker 2: they're just different forms of wagering and betting on various things.

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Speaker 1: Oh, some of those day traders, they're in Vegas. In

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Speaker 1: my mind, those stock day traders who are up and

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Speaker 1: down all day, I'm like, that is just gambling. So obviously,

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Speaker 1: myly my reward back then was that bathing suitent That

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Speaker 1: was enough for me. When we come back, we have

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Speaker 1: to take a little break.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about who you think is most

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Speaker 1: at risk right now and from a clinical standpoint, what

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Speaker 1: some of the early warning signs are that people might

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Speaker 1: becoming unhealthy with their gambling. My guest is doctor Timothy Fong,

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Speaker 1: a medical doctor and UCLA Health psychiatrist, co director of

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Speaker 1: the UCLA Gambling Studies Program. Welcome back to the Doctor

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Speaker 1: Wendy Wall Show. My guest doctor Timothy Pong, a UCLA

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Speaker 1: Health psychiatrist and co director of the UCLA Gambling Studies Program.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about the Big Game next week, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of people are susceptible to being hurt through gambling.

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Speaker 1: Who would you say, doctor Pong, is most at risk

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Speaker 1: right now? Like, are you seeing particular age groups or

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Speaker 1: personality traits that show up consistently in your data.

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Speaker 2: You know, consistently in the last I'd say a year

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Speaker 2: and a half. A person calling for gambling treatment support

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Speaker 2: is a young male between ages eighteen thirty with untreated

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Speaker 2: mental health conditions ADHD, depression, trauma from COVID, emotional pain,

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Speaker 2: from loneliness. These are the ones that we're seeing that

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Speaker 2: we're most concerned about. Obviously, we're concerned about anyone struggling

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Speaker 2: who is access to gambling and.

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Speaker 3: Who would be at risk.

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Speaker 2: That's going to be anyone with a family member with addiction,

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Speaker 2: older adults, people from impoverished communities, for ethnic minority groups.

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Speaker 2: So really, I like to say, you know, every single

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Speaker 2: human is vulnerable and potentially at risks through developing this addiction,

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Speaker 2: just like any other addiction to alcoholic drugs or tobacco.

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Speaker 2: But the risk that we're most concerned about is absolutely

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Speaker 2: young people. And we're talking as young as eight eight

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Speaker 2: up to about twenty five, because again they're growing up

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Speaker 2: in this world where they're seeing and being told gambling

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Speaker 2: is the solution.

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Speaker 3: Gambling is the.

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Speaker 2: Path forward for you to become popular, successful of fame,

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Speaker 2: is rich and wealthy.

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Speaker 3: That's what they're hearing.

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Speaker 2: Combining that again with the vulnerabilities again of untreated mental

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Speaker 2: health conditions, the epidemic of loneliness.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk about this beauty solution. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the sort of the biological chemical thing that happens when

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Speaker 1: someone is isolated and feels lonely, and how gambling can

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Speaker 1: help them feel better. So I want people to understand

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Speaker 1: that connection because we are witnessing a loneliness epidemic, especially

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Speaker 1: in young males.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: So again that state of loneliness, which is defined as

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Speaker 2: a sense of inadequate social relationships, so you get a

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Speaker 2: thousands of friends but still be really lonely. It's essentially

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Speaker 2: like being in a state of what fight or flight.

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Speaker 2: Your body is under stress, is under siege from all

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Speaker 2: those hormones that you talk about all the time, right,

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Speaker 2: are working against you. And when you're in that state,

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Speaker 2: you don't sleep well, you don't eat well, right, you

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Speaker 2: have sweaty palm, you don't feel good, you think you're

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Speaker 2: bad and ugly. Everything is catastrophized.

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Speaker 3: Then you turn to gambling and.

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Speaker 2: Say, you know what, that might be a way out

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Speaker 2: because if I had an extra couple hundred dollars, maybe

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Speaker 2: someone would be willing to go out with me, Or

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Speaker 2: maybe I can go spend and take that person out

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Speaker 2: and spend a little bit more, and maybe they'll like

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Speaker 2: me more because I'm taking them to a four star

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Speaker 2: restaurant instead of a two star restaurant. So again, gambling

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Speaker 2: sues the emotions, just like drugs, just like video games,

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Speaker 2: just like other things. Crypto crypto because it creates a

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Speaker 2: pathway of what escape, creates a way out of emotional

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Speaker 2: and financial pain. But it's artificial, it's not really designed,

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Speaker 2: so that gambling is not a solution for financial problems.

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Speaker 3: That's it. It's not a job.

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Speaker 2: No, it's an expensive form of entertainment.

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Speaker 3: That's all it is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they think it's a job, so you know, let's

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Speaker 1: be honest. Most Super Bowl people who bet on the

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl are casual betters. They do it every once

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Speaker 1: in a while. So from a clinical standpoint, though, what

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Speaker 1: would you say are the early warning signs that it's unhealthy,

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Speaker 1: that this is not good for an individual.

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Speaker 2: So it could be a lot of different things. Every

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Speaker 2: person is different, but it's the most common ones I

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Speaker 2: see are that people start to have problems with sleeping,

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Speaker 2: they start to be irritable, they start to think overthink

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Speaker 2: about gambling too much. They start to view gambling as

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Speaker 2: the way out financial, social, psychological, health problems or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Gambling starts to take something on that it shouldn't be.

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Speaker 2: It shouldn't be this dark secret and for everyone's really different.

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Speaker 2: I think the message I've been saying for years now

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Speaker 2: that people is like, you know what, if you're just

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Speaker 2: curious about what gambling is doing to your body and brain,

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Speaker 2: and if you're at all wondering if it's healthy, it

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Speaker 2: probably already is not. It's kind of like smoking cigarettes.

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Speaker 2: Starting off, everyone knows it's not healthy for you, right

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Speaker 2: if you smoke a few cigarettes a year. Eah, But

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Speaker 2: if you're smoking every day or a few days, you

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Speaker 2: know it's not healthy and you know it's hurt in you.

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Speaker 2: It's the same way with gambling. People know. People know

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Speaker 2: when they gamble and it's not for fun or it

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Speaker 2: doesn't bring you clothes sup of friends or family like

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Speaker 2: the Super Bowl squares kind of do, then it's not entertainment,

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Speaker 2: it's something else.

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Speaker 1: Then it's also the big crash that happens financially. Right,

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Speaker 1: these young people come to you in great.

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Speaker 2: Debt, No, oh great. And I had a young man

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Speaker 2: last Monday came for an intake three hundred and fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars he's spent on gambling twenty three years old.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, twenty three years old.

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Speaker 2: Just imagine yone listening at that. What emotional and financial

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Speaker 2: pain that must create for him to say, how am

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Speaker 2: I ever going to get out of that debt? And

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Speaker 2: that debt that was hidden away from his parents. He

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Speaker 2: had to commit crimes to finance that debt. He's got

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Speaker 2: banks calling him, you got people texting him about his money,

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Speaker 2: and imagine just a state of fight or fight he's in.

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Speaker 2: That's a severe form of gambling.

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Speaker 3: Disorder. That's not something anyone.

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Speaker 2: Would wish to right, And he was so eloquent. He's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, doctor Fong, I wish I had learned how

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Speaker 2: to do this better when they started. But it only

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Speaker 2: took about three years.

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Speaker 3: For me to drive up this level of debt.

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Speaker 2: That's not something you see in other addictions, you know,

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Speaker 2: in terms of driving that det up that fast.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk besides the financial treatment, declare bankruptcy, young man,

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the psychological treatment. What are the first steps?

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Speaker 1: How do you treat this?

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Speaker 2: So like any other mental health condition, biological, psychological, social treatments,

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Speaker 2: I like to focus on things that people can manage immediately.

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Speaker 2: They can manage whether they do physical exercise, they can

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Speaker 2: manage what they eat, they can manage it, they get

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Speaker 2: better sleep hygiene. But it always starts with seeking professional help,

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Speaker 2: seeing a therapists, a counsel who's experienced in dealing with

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Speaker 2: addiction and gambling, seeking the connection of others going through

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Speaker 2: like gam what's anonymous. So every person that comes in

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Speaker 2: our office or through gambling treatment programs are going to

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Speaker 2: have a different treatment plan. Just if you had cancer,

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Speaker 2: everyone's going to have a unique plan but it always

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Speaker 2: goes back to really improving four things home, physical health,

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Speaker 2: mental health, sense of purpose, increasing community. When you do

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Speaker 2: all those things simultaneously through the power of medication and

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Speaker 2: therapy and support, that's when recovery can happen to the

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Speaker 2: point where then people can say, you know what, I

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Speaker 2: don't have gambling urges anymore, or I don't view gambling

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Speaker 2: as a solution, or they frankly say, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I can see a life that's better for me where

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Speaker 2: gambling is not part of that life. That's what we're

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Speaker 2: hoping for. That's what treatment looks like.

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Speaker 1: And is there any medication that you can use to

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Speaker 1: help people?

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Speaker 2: There are you know, there's no FDA proved medications and

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Speaker 2: gamble disorder, but we have a number that have been

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Speaker 2: tried in clinical research trials that are effective. And the

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Speaker 2: best biological treatments again are going to be to treat

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Speaker 2: the hidden other mental health condition that sometimes has never diagnosed.

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Speaker 2: I've had so many patients have had untreated trauma, untreated depression,

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Speaker 2: untreated ADHD, and when you treat those things, the gambling

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Speaker 2: oftentimes improves dramatically.

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Speaker 1: Wow, well, you are doing such great work up there

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Speaker 1: at UCLA, Doctor Timothy Fong, thanks so much for joining us,

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Speaker 1: and it's always a pleasure to have you on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Doctor Wendy, and I gotta put a shout

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Speaker 2: out as anyone out there is curious about their gambling

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Speaker 2: or concerned about someone else's gambling in their lives, call

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Speaker 2: one eight hundred Gambler one eight hundred Gambler twenty four hours,

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Speaker 2: seven days a week. They can get connected to our

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Speaker 2: California State treatment program at no cost.

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Speaker 1: No cost to hear that, everybody, one eight hundred Gambler.

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Speaker 1: Thanks doctor Phong, and that brings the Doctor Wendy Walls

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Speaker 1: Show to a close. It is always my pleasure to

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Speaker 1: be with you every Sunday from seven to nine pm

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Speaker 1: during the week. If you miss anything, go on the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app. You can download the whole show or follow

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Speaker 1: me on my social media at doctor Wendy Walsh. But

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Speaker 1: I'll see you next week on KFI. You've been listening

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Speaker 1: to the Doctor Wendy wallsh Show on KFI AM six

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Speaker 1: forty