1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: To night. Michael Brown joins me here, the former FEMA 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: director of talk show host Michael Brown. Brownie, No, Brownie, 3 00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: You're doing a heck of a job. The Weekend with 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: Michael Brown broadcasting from Denver, Colorado. Hen, it's the Weekend 5 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: with Michael Brown. Glad to have you joining the program 6 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: again today. So you know the rules of engagement we've 7 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: gone over the last hour. The text line, as always 8 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: is always open three to three one zero three on 9 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: your message app three three one zero three, keyword Micha 10 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: or Michael. Then if you want to go, follow me 11 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: on x formerly Twitter at Michael Brown USA. So let's 12 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: get started. Critics of this speech regime that's going on 13 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: in Europe right now are trying to argue that the 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: European continent has built this system that, according to them, 15 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: will nudge citizens toward silence through law, BUREAUCRACYPT and the 16 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: quiet but unmistakable pressure of public police power. That's what 17 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: the critics argue, and I think they happen to be 18 00:00:57,960 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: right and right at the middle of all of this, 19 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: the epicenter of all of this is Germany. Germany sits 20 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: at the center of this structure, and Frederick Mertz, who 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: is the Chancellor of Germany right now, is a very 22 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: skilled lawyer. He's the leader of the CDU, their party, 23 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: and he has offered a case study of how these 24 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: laws are going to function in practice. And I keep 25 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: telling everyone we need to watch what goes on in 26 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: Europe because when we think about what's going on in 27 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 1: New York, or what's going on in HU, what's going 28 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: on in Minnesota right now and Chicago another great example 29 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: where these really far left, progressive Marxist mayors take hold. 30 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,440 Speaker 1: That's the proverbial foot in the door. And when you 31 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: think about if you step back away from Chicago and 32 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 1: New York City, for example, and you look at what 33 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: progressive Marxist kind of Democrats do in the Congress. If 34 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: they could eviscerate obviously the Second Amendment, but if they 35 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: could deviscerate the First Amendment too, that would make them 36 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: really happy. And the way they're doing it in Europe 37 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: is the way that it could be done in this 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: country if we don't pay attention to it. Mertz, the 39 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: Chancellor of Germany. Chancellor Mertz, he didn't write these laws, 40 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: and he didn't design the bureaucracies that are applying the laws, 41 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: but he has used them in ways that illuminate the 42 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 1: deep states deeper tendencies. For example, when a politician signs 43 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: four nine and ninety nine, let's just say, five thousand 44 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: criminal complaints against online critics, the issue really is not 45 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: the number of criminal complaints, but it's the structure that 46 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: made that effort even possible to begin with. Europe's anti 47 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: speech laws are often described as protective devices. Oh well, 48 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: they're just designed to shield these vulnerable groups that can't 49 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: take care of themselves from hate, or to prevent social discord. 50 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: The argument is understandable. I mean, there's a lot of 51 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: social discord, and I understand that hate is in of 52 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: itself bad, but we have to learn that what we 53 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: do to counter hate is more speech trying to control 54 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: the hate. Speech is not going to control the hate. 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: That's what exists in a person's heart, and you're not 56 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: going to change that. Speech can wound, speech can hurt, 57 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: but speech can also be an antidote. Speech can also 58 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: do be an anesthetic, and speech can counter those things 59 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: that hurt. Yet, constitutional democracies constitutional republics are premised on 60 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: the idea that political leaders have got to learn to 61 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: tolerate really sharp criticism. Why because politicians possess a colersive 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: power that ordinary citizens don't possess. And Germany has inverted 63 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: that logic by enhancing something that's called section one eighty eight. 64 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: That section increases penalties for insulting public officials. Can you 65 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: imagine think about me insulting a public official if we 66 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: had a section one eighty eight in our code that said, 67 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, if you offend an elected official, well we 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: can come and arrest you and or give you a 69 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: ticket of summons of some sort, and then we can 70 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: hold you accountable for that by imposing a fine or something. 71 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: Be crazy, I wouldn't be here today. You know. A 72 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: puzzled listener, you might ask, well, how does the republic 73 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: or a democracy like Germany benefit when the leaders of 74 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: those countries enjoy more legal protection from criticism and the 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: voters that they're supposed to serve. The simple answer is 76 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: that it does not. So the Chancellor's decision to rely 77 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:48,359 Speaker 1: on a private enforcement firm called so Done exposes this 78 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: inversion that I'm talking about. The firms scoured the internet 79 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 1: for any kind of possible insult that they can find, 80 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 1: and then they forward those cases to the prosecutors, and 81 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: in turn, they collected fifty percent of the damage. It's 82 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: almost like the express lanes, if you have express express lanes. 83 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: I know LA has these. I know that some places 84 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: in DC have them. We have them in Colorado. They're 85 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: built by tax dollars. But then all of the rules 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 1: are enforced by a private company. And that private company scours, 87 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, has the cameras up and they they catch 88 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: your license plate and you cross the line at the 89 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: wrong time or whatever, and then they send you a 90 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: They send you a fine, and oh, you can ignore 91 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: the fine, and you might want to argue unite, and 92 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,599 Speaker 1: I would argue, you have no authority to enforce that fine. 93 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: Yet what's happened in Colorado is they've given this private 94 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: organization the power to enforce the fines by withholding registration, 95 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: so I can't go register my car when that renewal 96 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: comes up at the end of the year or whenever 97 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: it might come up for renewal. That's kind of what's 98 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: going on here. They're scouring for possible insults, they ford 99 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: those cases to the to the public prosecutors, and then 100 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: they get fifty percent of the damages of the fines. 101 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: That the prospcutter collects. So a politician that delegates the 102 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: task of monitoring public rhetoric to what's no better than 103 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: a bounty, a bounty like operation. That alone demonstrates that 104 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: Europe's speech laws do more than protect, they incentivize enforcement. 105 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: Imagine a road that widens every time a driver brushes 106 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: the curb. Well, eventually the curb is going to disappear. Right, 107 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: over time, it's going to just start to crumble and 108 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: crumble and crumble, and pretty soon that concrete curb has disappeared. Well, 109 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: I think something similar has happened to the boundary between 110 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: what's considered critical speech and criminal speech. And when the state, 111 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: private firms, and political actors all kind of align in 112 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:52,279 Speaker 1: a straight line, the definition of punishable speech starts to expand. 113 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: And then what happens well in Germany, police raids following 114 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: minor insults make this pretty clear. In several Chancellor related cases, 115 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: prosecutors authorize home searches and device searches for comments that 116 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: fall well within the rough and tumble of just the 117 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: normal political debate, and critics ask, wait a minute, what 118 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: public interest is served by sending law enforcement officers to 119 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: confiscate the phone of a disabled woman who called a 120 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: politician a little Nazi. Now, even if the comment was rude, 121 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: the escalation of force is difficult to square with liberal 122 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: in the traditional sense of the word liberal, the norms 123 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: of a liberal democracy, a liberal republic. So you might 124 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: wonder whether prosecutors genuinely believed that those actions were necessary. Well, 125 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: the more plausible thinking about this is that speech laws 126 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: furnish a legal pathway for punitive investigations. And just like 127 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: every everything else, once Congress or in this case, the 128 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: German Parliament, once they create a path, and once someone 129 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: sees that a path exists, somebody's gonna walk it. When 130 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: I was working for the Oklahoma Senate back in my 131 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: days as a baby lawyer down in Oklahoma, the Secretary 132 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: of Transportation in Oklahoma told me one time, you can 133 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: build a road anywhere, doesn't make any difference, just if 134 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: it just goes from point A to point B. Eventually 135 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 1: that road will get filled with cars because people will discover, oh, 136 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: that's a path I can take to get from point 137 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: A to point B. That's different than the path I 138 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: normally take. And right now it's not very crowded, and 139 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: then boom over time, everybody's using that road, and I 140 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:47,839 Speaker 1: think that same analogy applies here. Berlin prosecutors went further. 141 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: What did they do? They labeled vulgar humor as extremism. Really, 142 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: vulgar humor is extremists. Let's see how that works at 143 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: it so we can with Michael Brown. Text the word Michael, 144 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: Michael the three three one zero three, Hang tight, I'll 145 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: be right back. Hey, the Weekend with Michael Brown. Glad 146 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,440 Speaker 1: to have you with me. Appreciate you tuning in. As always, 147 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: text lines always open whether you're listening, you know, delayed 148 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: or on a podcast. I read the text all the 149 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: time at text line three three one zero three. Keyword 150 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: Micharo and Michael. 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Back to Germany. 158 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: These these laws that are being active by the German Parliament, 159 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 1: and they're being taken advantage of by the German Chancellor. 160 00:09:55,559 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: I think are a serious case of extremism being taken 161 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: or the fear of extremism being taken to an nth 162 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: degree that really violates the natural right, the natural law 163 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: that you and I have to speak our minds, and 164 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: certainly if we do in this country, maybe not so 165 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: much in Germany anymore, but at least in this country, 166 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: we still have the right to criticize the people that 167 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: we elect to public office. And if your skin's not 168 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,439 Speaker 1: tough enough to deal with the fact that we criticize 169 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: you in public office, then maybe you shouldn't be in 170 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: public office. Berlin prosecutors, as I said earlier, went further 171 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: with this section one eighty eight and they labeled some 172 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: vulgar humor as extremism. And I think that is a 173 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: very conceptual pivot point, because extremism is obviously a very 174 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: serious category in German law because of their heritage in 175 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: their and their history with the Nazis. But this law 176 00:10:53,600 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: justifies expanded surveillance and really stiff penalties, so that if 177 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: you reverent political mockery can be classified as extremism, then 178 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: the boundary that used to exist between dangerous ideology and 179 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: everyday satire. Those boundaries begin to blur, and a legal 180 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: system that emits such elasticity is going to invite political 181 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: actors to use that elasticity strategically. It goes back to 182 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: the example that if you build a path and that 183 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: path has a curb on it, and people keep pushing 184 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:30,839 Speaker 1: the curb, they keep bumping up against the curb all 185 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: the time, pretty soon the curb is going to disappear 186 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: and you've broadened and you have widened that pathway. So 187 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: a legal system that emits that elasticity is just going 188 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: to invite the political actors who are thin skinned to 189 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: use it strategically. And the danger is not that the 190 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: chancellor is going to act alone aggressively, but that the 191 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: system that they've put in place encourages aggressive use by 192 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: anybody that finds the criticism inconvenient. So Germany's network of 193 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: state aligned reporting centers that in strengthens that concern. Hubs 194 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: like one of their TV channels, Hens and Goggan hets 195 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,319 Speaker 1: I'm sure I mispronounced that that channel tens of thousands 196 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: of online comments into the police pipelines, So it would 197 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: be like, if you're on X, you know, I asked 198 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: you to follow me on X formerly Twitter. It would 199 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: be as if Twitter takes or X takes an algorithm, 200 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: and anything that they in the algorithm deemed to be extremists, 201 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 1: they just automatically feed that into the computer systems in 202 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: the police stations, and so it really becomes very easy 203 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: to monitor what an algorithm has determined to be extremism, 204 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: and then a law enforcement officer can look at that 205 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,839 Speaker 1: and say, yeah, we agree extremism too, or they can 206 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: just be lazy and not really just say oh, they 207 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: send it to us, so it must be extremism. Well, 208 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: all of these centers that they now have around the 209 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: country are presented to the German citizens as community tools 210 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: for promoting civility. But what's their effect. Their effect is 211 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: to erase the transition between speech and investigation. So a 212 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: citizen might believe that she is, you know, notifying a 213 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: moderator about something that she found offensive, when in fact, 214 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: what she's really doing is launching a prosecutorial inquiry. She's 215 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: launching an investigation simply by saying to the you know, 216 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: say to X, hey I found this offensive. That gets 217 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: tunneled channeled right into the law enforcement agency. The process 218 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: becomes so streamlined that political figures don't even have to 219 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: file complaints at all. They just sit back and the 220 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: system takes over. And you know, I criticize, you know, 221 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: a politician in Germany. The politician may never even hear 222 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: the criticism. They may never even read the criticism. It 223 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: gets fed into law enforcement, and law enforcement automatically channels 224 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: that into a prosecution complaint, and the next thing you know, 225 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: there's been a ward arrested or a summons issued for 226 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: my arrest or a fine issue because I did something 227 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: that they found offensive. That system is would make George 228 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: or Well proud. It would make, you know, nineteen eighty 229 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: four seem like, ah, that's just play stuff. The process 230 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: becomes so stream law that politicians don't even pay attention 231 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: to it because the system itself monitors, collects, and delivers 232 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: all these possible violations. In that kind of environ the 233 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: line between community moderation, say on X, and what I 234 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: would call state surveillance, I don't know that there's a difference. 235 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: I think it becomes one and the same. And even 236 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: some legal scholars are starting to recognize this, and they 237 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: begun to register alarm. One legal scholar in Germany, among many, 238 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: notes that this system is producing disproportionate reactions to protected 239 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: and an even marginally unlawful speech. And this one legal 240 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: expert argues that the enhanced protections for politicians violates a 241 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: constitutional principle that those who wield the power must be 242 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: able to endure more criticism, not less criticism. And I 243 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: think that point is simple, but it's profound if laws, 244 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: or if a law subtly shifts public life so that 245 00:15:55,200 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: ordinary citizens face police intervention for political satire or political mockers, 246 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: while the elected leaders are shielded from that ridicule, in 247 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: other words, they never face it because all of that's 248 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: going on in the background, then the democratic orientation of 249 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: that system has invariably changed and changed for the worst. 250 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: Citizens internalize these signals, and what happens next. Suddenly you 251 00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: become afraid to say anything. And when you become afraid 252 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: to say anything, what's the natural reaction? I say that 253 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: self censorship becomes the rational action that people will engage in. 254 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to pay a fine of X number 255 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: of German marks or x number of US dollars or 256 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: x number of view of British pounds. So if I 257 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: don't even if I think that I'm just posting something 258 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: on X, I keep using X as an example, but 259 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: could be anything in Germany if I just keep posting 260 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: something to social media because I really am pissed off 261 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: at some particular politician, and that politician never hears it, 262 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: sees it, reads it, or even knows about it. Yet 263 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: the system flags it as being somehow violation of section 264 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: one eighty eight of this German law about hate speech. 265 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: And then that just automatically that automatically triggers an investigation, 266 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: and that investigation automatically triggers a summons or automatically sends 267 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 1: it to a court, and I'm summoned and I have 268 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: to pay the fine. Just like violating an express lane, 269 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: you didn't even know you were doing it. I got 270 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: to take it in La one time for violating an 271 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: express lane and I didn't even know I was in 272 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: and I called the company and you know, I said, 273 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: I listen to you know, I was in a rental car. 274 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: I didn't know where I was, what I was. It 275 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: was rush hour. I was trying to get to La 276 00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: accident so I wouldn't miss a flight and fortunately I 277 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: had somebody that was kind of friendly and they said, oh, 278 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. Well the first time, we'll let 279 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: you go. You think they do that in Germany, I 280 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: hardly doubt it. Hang tight, I'll be right back to night. 281 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 1: Michael Brown joins me here, the former FEMA director of 282 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: talk show host Michael Brown. Brownie, No, Brownie, You're doing 283 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: a heck of a job the Weekend with Michael Brown. 284 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Weekend with Michael Brown. Glad to 285 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: have you with me. So again, you think about when 286 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: the law begins to shift public life so that just 287 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: the ordinary people face police intervention because of political satire. 288 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: As I said in that last segment, self censorship is 289 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: what becomes rational. And when you have self censorship, people 290 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: don't express what they really believe or what they really feel, 291 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: or they close their curtains and they lock the doors 292 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: and they turn the lights off and they sit around 293 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: the dinner table. It is it's just like Nazi Germany, right, 294 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: It's like something you've seen out of the diary Van 295 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: Frank and people are just whispering and whispered tones. You know. 296 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: I think the Chancellor is crazy because he did x 297 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,119 Speaker 1: y Z, or I think this particular representative was crazy 298 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 1: or the senator is crazy because they did X y 299 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:15,679 Speaker 1: Z and suddenly everything goes underground and there's no public 300 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: discourse anymore. The vanishingly number small number of convictions that 301 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: has come out of this whole complaint system clarifies the 302 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 1: purpose of the machinery. Most of the cases that that 303 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: I've been talking about here in Germany, most of those 304 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: cases were actually dismissed because the courts found that several 305 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: raids were actually unconstitutional. Yet the investigation still happened. Phones 306 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: were still seized, homes were still searched, and so the 307 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: distinction between conviction and investigation becomes blurred. And I think 308 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: there's a huge distinction between an investigation and a conviction, 309 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: at least in this co we call it due process, 310 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: and we say that, oh, if you're going to investigate, 311 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: before you can even start that you have to have 312 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,479 Speaker 1: probable cause. And if you think you have probable cause, 313 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: then you have to investigate. You have I have to 314 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,480 Speaker 1: know who my accusers are. I have the right to 315 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: face my accusers, and I have the right to challenge 316 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: them in court. But again, I like a traffic ticket, Oh, Yeah, uh, well, officer, 317 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: what'd you stop me for? Well, because you were doing 318 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: eighty five and a sixty five mile hour zone. Yeah, well, 319 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 1: I'm gonna challenge you in court. What's what's what difference 320 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 1: does it make? They've got you on radar. What are 321 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: you gonna do challenge the radar. The distinction between conviction 322 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 1: and investigation, in my opinion, matters deeply because if the 323 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 1: aim is justice, then we would expect that in the 324 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: case of Germany, there would have been a lot of convictions, 325 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,359 Speaker 1: but as I said, there were a very small number 326 00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: of convictions. And if the aim is to deter this 327 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: these criticisms, the process itself is the penalty. You have 328 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,360 Speaker 1: to endure the investigation. You have to endure that your 329 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 1: phones and your computers have been seized and they've been 330 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: taken away by law enforcement, and so you either have 331 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: to go buy a new phone, or you have to 332 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: do without until you get your phone back, or they 333 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: now have access to everything that's on your computers. That's 334 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: the conviction, that's the punishment. They don't really care if 335 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: you ever pay a fine or not. They have intimidated 336 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: you and kept you from speaking your mind. Mission accomplished 337 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: This is what students of self authoritarianism authoritarianism observe about 338 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: what's going on in Germany, because the state doesn't really 339 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: need to imprison or actually find the dissenters. It needs 340 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: to only convince citizens that criticizing the powerful is going 341 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: to put them in legal peril or they're going to 342 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: endure all of the process, and the process itself becomes 343 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: the punishment. Now, I know I've talked a lot about Germany, 344 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: this is not confined to Germany. France often prosecutes political 345 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: speech under their broad hate speech laws. They'll target critics of, 346 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: say immigration policy. Ireland is actually considering legislation that would 347 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: criminalize just the possession of hateful material, a concept so 348 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: expansive that satire or private messaging messaging between individuals, even 349 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 1: they're encrypted, might fall within that sweep. Spain has used 350 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: sedition and extremism statutes to contain separatist sentiment and to 351 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: police right leaning criticism. Brussels, Belgium, they pressure large platforms 352 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: under the Digital Services Act to remove what they claim 353 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 1: to be harmful content. They just make their own independence. 354 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: Oh we think this is hateful, so you got to 355 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: take it down, and the fines are so devastating. So 356 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: companies comply even if the legal basis is ambiguous, but 357 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: the message is clear. They absolutely deliver a clear message. 358 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: The boundaries of permissible speech are determined not by open debate, 359 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: but by the bureaucrats, by the system, by the process 360 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: to precede the system as a whole. Imagine a very 361 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: wide net cast over just all public discourse. The mesh 362 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: in that net is very very fine. Oh it'll catch 363 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: some minor insults, It might check, you know, and catch 364 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: some off color caustic jokes. It might even catch a 365 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: few ideological challenges here and there, and even emotional reactions 366 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: to political events might get oh you were mad about 367 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: what was said at this rally, that was said by 368 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: the Chancellor or by the Prime minister or somebody. Go 369 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: back to the four thousand, nine ninety nine complaints that 370 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 1: Chancellor Mertz filed in Germany. Those complaints reveal how easily 371 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: a determined actor can pull that net really tight. The 372 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: underlying structure is what matters. A system that enables the 373 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: state to search homes over trivial rhetoric, that's the system 374 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: that mistakes disagreement for danger. The EU's political class has 375 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: learned to defend that mechanism by invoking, well, we've got 376 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: to do it, so we'll have social cohesion, so we'll 377 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: have democrat democratic stability, and of course, as always we're 378 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: going to protect minorities. Don't get me wrong, those are 379 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: noble aims. But if you're an objective listener, you should 380 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,360 Speaker 1: be asking whether coercion is the appropriate means to obtain 381 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: social cohesion, or democratic stability, or the protection of minorities. 382 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: History teaches us that speech restrictions seldom remain proportionate. Just 383 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: like any other government program. They expand. And why do 384 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: they expand. They expand because those in power. Those in 385 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: power seldom seek to restrict themselves. They want their power 386 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 1: to grow larger and larger and larger. So to strengthen 387 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: the argument that Chancellor Mertz and these other European leaders 388 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: use anti speech laws to silence dissent, then I want 389 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: to focus for a minute on incentives, because the political 390 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 1: actors respond to incentives exactly as you know a company 391 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 1: of responds to the marketplace. When laws grant officials special 392 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 1: protection from ridicule and then furnish a really easy enforcement pathway, 393 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: those government officials are going to use those pathways. When 394 00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: bureaucracy streamline reporting, and prosecution enforcement just becomes routine rather 395 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: than exceptional, and when courts rarely convict but often authorize 396 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 1: the searches, that's the chilling effect, and that chilling effect grows. 397 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: None of this requires malice. You don't have to be hateful, 398 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: you don't have to be mean spirited about it. No malice. 399 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 1: I'm just, you know, just like a good Nazi. I'm 400 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: just following the structure. I'm just following the laws itself. 401 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: And I think that presents a deeper worry, and that 402 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 1: is that Europe has built a legal environment in which 403 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: the courage to criticize political leaders is treated as a 404 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: risk instead of a virtue. Imagine that in this country. 405 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: That's the erase, that is the destruction of Western civilization 406 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 1: that is taking place in Europe right now. I don't 407 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: want that coming here. It's the Weekend with Michael Brown. 408 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,439 Speaker 1: Text line as usual, always open three three one zero three, 409 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:15,959 Speaker 1: keyword micro Michael, go follow me on X you know 410 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: before they start, you know, finding us for that. It's 411 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:28,719 Speaker 1: at Michael Brown USA. I'll be right back. Welcome back 412 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 1: to the Weekend with Michael Brown. Glad to have you 413 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: with me. Hopever, you know, it is everybody getting in 414 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 1: the Christmas spirit. I'm not sure that this story is 415 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: going to get people in the Christmas spirit, but that's 416 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: at least what I'm trying to do is just remind 417 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,239 Speaker 1: you that, you know, as we go about and we 418 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: get into that season where we start to you know, 419 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: celebrate with family and friends and we're all in a 420 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: happy mood and everything, I'm like the Grinch that stole 421 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: Christs and I'm just reminding you that while we're happy 422 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: and dumb, fat and happy here in this country right now, 423 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: on the other side of the pond, they're actually destroying 424 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: Western civilization, and they're doing it based on political correctness. 425 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: George Orwell would be proud. Nineteen eighty four is coming true. 426 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: It's just, you know, we're a couple of decades later, 427 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: but it really is coming true. I think the deepest 428 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 1: worry about Europe for me is that they have built 429 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: this legal environment in which the courage to criticize political leaders, 430 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: as I said in the last segment, is treated as 431 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: a risk, not a virtue. In this country, we actually 432 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: recognize that our ability to criticize our elected officials is 433 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: a civic virtue that we actually, if we sincerely believe 434 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: that Senator X, Congressman Y, governor B, whoever it might be, 435 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: that if they're doing something that we don't think is 436 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: in our best interest, in the economy's best interest, in 437 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: the country's best interest, not only should we criticize them, 438 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,479 Speaker 1: but it is our public duty to criticize them. And 439 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: I think it's a duty of those elected officials as costing. Now, 440 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: I never encouraged people to be costing or to be 441 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: rude or demeaning or anything else when they criticized, particularly 442 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: face to face when they criticize our political leaders. But 443 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: I do encourage people to challenge them because they wanted 444 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,719 Speaker 1: the job. They're the ones that signed their name on 445 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: the petition to get on the ballot or raise the money, 446 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: got the votes, they went through a primary, if there 447 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: was a primary, they went through a general election. They 448 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: got more votes than the other person. They got elected 449 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: because they thought they had good ideas and they wanted 450 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: to represent. And when they ran, they may have run 451 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: on a platform that represented one party more than another party, 452 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: but once they got elected, they're supposed to idealistically anyway 453 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 1: represent their entire constituency, whether that be a US senator 454 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: and a state, a governor in a state, a congressman 455 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 1: in a district, or even a city councilmen in award 456 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: or something. Theirs to represent everyone. So part of our 457 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: job is to tell them what we think about the 458 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: job they're doing or what we need, and their job 459 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,760 Speaker 1: is to listen and to take that into consideration, not 460 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: to try to prevent us from criticizing them. That's why 461 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: I argue so vehemently that what they're doing in Europe 462 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: is treating criticism as a risk rather than a virtue. 463 00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: That's why citizens learn to avoid provocative statements. Artists, satirists, 464 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: they'll temper their language. Journalists will tread carefully. Can you 465 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: now in this country we have a somewhat similar problem, 466 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: but an entirely different problem too. Part of the problem 467 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: with the cabal in this country is that oftentimes the 468 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 1: journalists simply act as stenographers for their particular ideological point 469 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: of view, when what they really should be doing is 470 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: just reporting to us on the facts about what elected 471 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: elected officials are doing. But in Europe, journalists learn to 472 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 1: tread carefully told the line, even if they are of 473 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: the opposite party, or they have different beliefs. Oh, be 474 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 1: very very careful in how you treat that. That filters 475 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: in into the news, that gets consumed by the citizens 476 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: of Germany, France, Belgium, or whomever it may be, and 477 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: suddenly they're starting to be persuaded. You see how it's 478 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: like a disease and it just takes hold and you 479 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: can't let go of it. Speech becomes managed speech and 480 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: not free speech. Now, this is not totalitarianism in a 481 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:52,479 Speaker 1: brutal sense, but it is a form of totalitarianism in 482 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: the sense that it is a form of control that 483 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: relies on the law, It relies on the bureaucracy, and 484 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: it relies on the discomfort of being investigated. I don't 485 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: know whether you've ever been investigated. You know, Back when 486 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: I practiced law, I've represented a lot of clients who 487 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: had to appear before a grand jury or who are 488 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: being investigated, or part of a even a civil lawsuit 489 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: where they have to attend a deposition, answer interrogatories, they 490 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: get grilled by the other side. The process itself is grueling. 491 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: It takes time, energy, and resources, and so oftentimes when 492 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: clients would come to me and say, you know, I 493 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: was wronged by so and so, and I'm gonna go 494 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: sue them. I first calm them down and explain to them, Yeah, 495 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: you know what, I think you're right. I think you 496 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: were wronged, and I think you do have a lawsuit here. However, 497 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: it's going to cost you here what my fees are, 498 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: so that's going to be painful too. There's not just 499 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: one side. I may believe and you may believe, and 500 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: we may even be able to prove that you were wronged, 501 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: but the other side is going to believe that they 502 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: were right. And so they're going to dig into everything 503 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: about you, your business, your past. They're paying legal fees 504 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,800 Speaker 1: to They're fighting everything everything that we do. They're doing 505 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: its madness, mutually assured destruction. Do you really want to 506 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: go through that? And if the answer is still yes, 507 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: then I'd say okay, then then we'll I'll take the case. 508 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: That's what I mean about here, where they rely on 509 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: the law of the bureaucracy and just the discomfort of 510 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: being investigated, that is the punishment. And the Chancellor's conduct 511 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,719 Speaker 1: is really meaningful here because it demonstrates how a modern 512 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: politician can take a system like this and whether it's 513 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: for evil purposes or they really think they're doing something right. 514 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: They can navigate and they can exploit that system to 515 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: their own advantage. If you're skeptical of all of this, 516 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: you might ask whether the solution is complete deregulation a speech. Well, 517 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: that's not the argument that I'm trying to make here. 518 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: The claim is this that Europe's current trajectory privileges the 519 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 1: power and it disciplines the powerless. So by enhancing the 520 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: protections for the politicians and expanding the definition of extremism, 521 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: and then on top of that, erecting bureaucratic reporting channels, 522 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: the system undermines the foundational democratic principle that citizens have 523 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 1: a right and a responsibility to criticize those that we elect. 524 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 1: A democracy, a republic can only endure rude comments, or 525 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: can endure rude comments. It cannot endure a culture of 526 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: fear around political expression or fear of being investigated. The 527 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: whole Chancellor Mertz episode really should prompt some reflection across 528 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: the entire content, and I think it should cause us 529 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:08,120 Speaker 1: to reflect here about hate speech, about extremism, about what 530 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: we determine its hateful or not hateful, and whether we 531 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: really want to criminalize that or not, Because if a 532 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: prominent public figure can marshall vote law enforcement resources against 533 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: thousands of critics with very little scrutiny, then that kind 534 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: of system is not protecting democratic principles. It is protecting 535 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 1: the ruling political class. It is protecting the cabal. A 536 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: legal framework that encourages self censorship, that's a framework that 537 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: weakens public deliberation, and then the long term consequences is 538 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: a body politic in which important questions get left unasked 539 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: because the cost of asking becomes too high. Europe's defenders 540 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: argue that these laws promote civility social peace. Reply civility 541 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: cannot be enforced or commanded by cops, and that social 542 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: peace cannot rest on silence. I think the truth lies 543 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: in understanding the trade offs, and those four ninety nine 544 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: complaints eliminate the trade offs. It shows a system that 545 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: has drifted from its liberal foundations toward a model that 546 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: makes dissent a liability. The danger is not hypothetical, it's 547 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: actually visible. If you read about the raids, the seizures, 548 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: and the prosecutorial zeal in Germany, you'll see that that 549 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: danger is very real, which means that europe has reached 550 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: a moment where that when the structure of its speech 551 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: regime deserves really careful scrutiny. Our task, maybe it is 552 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: not to condemn it, but to insist that political leaders 553 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: accept the scrutiny that a democratic office entails. We need 554 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: to understand this, that what is happening there could happen here. 555 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: And what I'm trying to do is just sound the 556 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: law that look across the pond, look toward the east 557 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: and see what's happening in Europe, and then think about 558 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: what's happening in this country. Where you start with, oh, 559 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: you can't say that because that's going to offend somebody, 560 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 1: well sucks to be you if you get offended. It's 561 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: the weekend with Michael Brown. Text Lines always open three 562 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: three one zero three, keyword Micha or Michael. I'll be 563 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 1: right back.