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Speaker 1: Bok station seven. Hoh sis here if about Canacy detalk

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Speaker 1: station careful one you're commute in and good luck trying

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Speaker 1: to get that Cincinnati snowplow tracker app to work. So

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Speaker 1: far it's not working. Brand new rolled out yesterday. Maybe

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Speaker 1: Todd's Zenzer will comment about that in studio our citizen Watchdog,

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Speaker 1: and God blessed Todd Enser for who he is and

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Speaker 1: what he does for the city of Cincinnati, whether you like,

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Speaker 1: whether you like the council or not. Todd's ends are

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Speaker 1: at least paying close attention to the Shenanigans going on

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Speaker 1: and got a couple of Shenanigans declarations to declare this morning.

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Speaker 1: Todd's ends Er Citizen Watchdog is the name of his podcast.

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Speaker 1: I strongly encourage you to listen to what Todd Zenser

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Speaker 1: has to say because some of the details he reveals, well,

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Speaker 1: it's enlightening. Maybe you put a soft touch on that word.

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Speaker 1: Todd Zinzer. It's great to have you in the studio,

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Speaker 1: and thanks again for all that you do for the city,

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Speaker 1: whether they like you or not.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Brian.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk about the upcoming Todd Zenzer nonprofit and

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Speaker 1: where that may go and Lord knows we'll need that. One.

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Speaker 1: Don't expect Todd Zenser's nonprofit to be a NGO included

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Speaker 1: in government funding from the City of Cincinnati, though you're not.

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Speaker 1: You're not expecting that when it happens.

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Speaker 2: No, Yeah, I don't think I'll do that, And if

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Speaker 2: I did, I'm not sure that I would get a

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Speaker 2: grant from the city.

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Speaker 1: Probably not, But at least you wouldn't be a mayor

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Speaker 1: sitting on a board of directors for a nonprofit that

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Speaker 1: does get Cincinnati taxpayer dollars, which is verboten, isn't it, Todd.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's I think it's improper, And you know,

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Speaker 2: I've I've been trying to get some attention to that.

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Speaker 2: I've written to the mayor and recommended that he do

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Speaker 2: something about it. And that was back in September. Oh,

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Speaker 2: he didn't get back with you, and I haven't heard

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Speaker 2: back from them. I've got to try to elevate that somehow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds me like something that's Oh, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: some attorney might want to take on a pro bonum basis.

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Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of attorneys out there to

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Speaker 1: like to sue the city for things like this anyway,

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Speaker 1: we'll get to that toward the tail end here, let

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Speaker 1: us begin with the lead pipe scandal. We had talked

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Speaker 1: about this previously. We're in the process of logically removing

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Speaker 1: lead pipes from the water infrastructure. Correct, Yes, and that's

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Speaker 1: we've been under order to do that. It's part of

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Speaker 1: the environmental cleanup process that's going on, multi billion dollar process,

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Speaker 1: that is. But I certainly understand the need to get

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Speaker 1: rid of lead pipe. It's obviously a problem. It causes

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Speaker 1: brain deficiencies and just in functions, and so it needs

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Speaker 1: to go out. But the problem is how they're going

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Speaker 1: about removing it ran into a little bit of problem,

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Speaker 1: did we Toddzenser.

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Speaker 2: Right, it's a it's an important program, which which makes

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Speaker 2: oversight of the program that much that more critical. And

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Speaker 2: what they what the UH internal auditor for the city

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Speaker 2: found several months ago, is that there was a problem

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Speaker 2: with the scrap lead not being properly recycled and they

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Speaker 2: had set up a regimen in the process where once

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Speaker 2: the lead pipes were removed, they were supposed to be

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Speaker 2: deposited into a container down at waterworks headquarters. And the

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Speaker 2: auditor found out that that container and the recycle outfit

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Speaker 2: that they contracted with would come and service that container,

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Speaker 2: they replace it and take the full container to recycling.

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Speaker 1: So there was a contractor that was retained to take

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Speaker 1: away the lead pipe. That's correct, all right, So city

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Speaker 1: employees working on the were working on the removal. Yeah, right, correct, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I just want to make sure because there's outside entities

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Speaker 1: and then there's people that are subject to the direct

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Speaker 1: oversight of the City of Cincinnaty.

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Speaker 2: They had electrific I had a lead crew.

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Speaker 1: So you have a lead crew. Lead crew takes the pipe,

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Speaker 1: puts it in this specialized dumpster, and then there's a

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Speaker 1: specialized specific company retained to remove it. Yes, that's the

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Speaker 1: way it's supposed to work. Yes, and I guess it didn't.

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Speaker 2: Well. The internal auditor found that the container had not

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Speaker 2: been serviced for five years, which means that no lead

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Speaker 2: pipe had ever been deposited into the container.

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Speaker 1: Uhhh Okay, Now walking through this, and I can see

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Speaker 1: where this is going, and you can certainly can explain it.

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Speaker 1: But if it had not been serviced for five years,

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Speaker 1: this company that was retained and contracted to service it,

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Speaker 1: as we're calling the process of removing the lead from

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Speaker 1: the container. Did they at any time say, hey, we've

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Speaker 1: been driving by this lead container receptacle we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be removing lead pipe from and it's never had any

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Speaker 1: lead pipe in it. Did any of that word ever

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Speaker 1: get through to anyone responsible?

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Speaker 2: I believe there's some email traff to that effect, really,

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Speaker 2: but it came very late. Oh, it came, I believe,

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Speaker 2: closer to when the audit was being conducted.

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Speaker 1: Oh so maybe when word got out that there was

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Speaker 1: an audit being done and so they said oh oh.

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Speaker 1: But by the way, it seems to be an important question.

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Speaker 1: Was the company that was retained to take care of

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Speaker 1: this receptacle and the lead pipe there and were they

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Speaker 1: being paid all along during this five year period where

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Speaker 1: they apparently didn't have to do any work.

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Speaker 2: Well, they have a they have a bigger contract, I

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Speaker 2: believe in the city and this was just part of.

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Speaker 1: It, Okay, And so that's a yes, I think to

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Speaker 1: my question, Well.

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Speaker 2: They were getting paid for the other services that they

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Speaker 2: were performing under the contract.

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Speaker 1: But this wasn't a separate line item charge on a

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Speaker 1: monthly basis from the company. Was is included in one

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Speaker 1: lump payment to the company. That's that's a yes to

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Speaker 1: my question.

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Speaker 2: That's my understanding.

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Speaker 1: So it should have been something less than the monthly

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Speaker 1: amount because they didn't have to do any work in

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Speaker 1: connection with removing the lead pipe.

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Speaker 2: There they were, they were riggered by a phone They

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Speaker 2: were supposed to be triggered by a phone call. Somebody's

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Speaker 2: supposed to call them and say, hey, our container is full,

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Speaker 2: you need to come and get it.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, So never having gotten a phone call, that's right,

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Speaker 1: that's go ahead and continue to accept the money that

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Speaker 1: we got lump sum.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: So then phase two is or question number two. So

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Speaker 1: they're not doing the job because there isn't a job

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Speaker 1: to do. Where in the hell the lead pipe go?

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Speaker 2: Todd Censer, Well, that's my question, Brian. They did a

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Speaker 2: They did a good thing by focusing on the theft

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Speaker 2: of the lead pipe. They aught it. Yeah, they identified

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Speaker 2: one person that they claim was responsible.

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Speaker 1: So facilitating the how did how did the scam work?

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Speaker 1: Because again we're talking about city employees removing the lead

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Speaker 1: pipe team, So it was someone on the lead pipe

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Speaker 1: team that was identified as being involved in this scam,

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Speaker 1: that's right. So what was happening to the lead Well, the.

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Speaker 2: Way I understand it is that the employee, instead of

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Speaker 2: putting it in the container, it would be loaded in

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Speaker 2: a truck, and instead of putting it in the container,

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Speaker 2: they they he had some kind of designated spot where

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Speaker 2: he would drop it off based on some prior arrangement

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Speaker 2: with us, these local scrappers that drive their truck around

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Speaker 2: and and and pick up stuff from the curb that

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Speaker 2: people put out. Right, he had some prior arrangement with

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Speaker 2: scrappers telling them where to go get it and they

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Speaker 2: would pay They would pay him.

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Speaker 1: Now, are scrappers subject to some sort of rules, legal

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Speaker 1: laws or rules of ethics, because the scrappers might not

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Speaker 1: have ethics, I don't know. No, do they have an

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Speaker 1: obligation to, you know, report what they've picked up, because

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Speaker 1: again you and I were talking off air, lead is

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Speaker 1: considered a hazardous substance.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's what That's what I've been focusing on. But

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Speaker 2: I don't think the scrappers have any any other obligation, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, to the city, or any kind of legal obligation.

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Speaker 2: But that ought to be the subject of a further investigation,

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Speaker 2: which the city is not doing.

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Speaker 1: Well. Let's say I have a load of lead pipe

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, it was not obtained unlawfully, but I've

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Speaker 1: got to get rid of it. I take it to

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Speaker 1: a local scrapyard. I can sell it to them because

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Speaker 1: they weigh by the pound and it does have some

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Speaker 1: value for the scrapyard. That's why they pay for it.

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to get as much as they get

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Speaker 1: for dealing with whoever they sell it to. So in

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Speaker 1: this particular arrangement, was it ever revealed what this one

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Speaker 1: loan individual who has identified what his slice of the

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Speaker 1: action was, and was he actually getting paid by the

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Speaker 1: scrap guy for the price of the lead or some

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Speaker 1: flat amount or something.

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Speaker 2: I think he tried to tell the city that it

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Speaker 2: was only once in a while and at least bunnies

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Speaker 2: when he was short on his monthly bills or something

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 1: I only kill people every once in a while. I

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Speaker 1: don't need to hold me account will under the law.

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Speaker 2: But there really is not a big comprehensive investigation of

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Speaker 2: the extent of the issue. My question right now is

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Speaker 2: where is the lead? Because if it is a hazardous

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Speaker 2: waste and there is a test that they have to

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Speaker 2: perform on the pipe to determine whether or not it

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Speaker 2: reaches the threshold of a hazardous waste. There's a federal

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Speaker 2: law and a state law about a requirement to designate

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Speaker 2: or determine whether or not a solid waste is hazardous

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Speaker 2: or not. And there's no indication at this point whether

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Speaker 2: they've made whether they ever made a determination like that.

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Speaker 2: So I have asked for any records that would show

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Speaker 2: the determination, whether they did the determination, and if they did,

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Speaker 2: what it says about those lead pipes. So it's really

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Speaker 2: an open question right now. And the reason I started

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Speaker 2: looking into it the executives from the water work were

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Speaker 2: interviewed on TV by WCPO and they're, you know, they're

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Speaker 2: sorry and et cetera, and they're going to do better,

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Speaker 2: But they didn't really seem concerned about this missing around

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Speaker 2: accounted for lead pipe. And it seems to me that

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Speaker 2: there's a big potential environmental issue there.

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Speaker 1: Well clearly that, But then again, this is simply a

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Speaker 1: question also of like theft. Yes, yeah, okay, let's pause.

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Speaker 1: We'll bring Tod Zenzer back a little bit more on

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Speaker 1: that one. Plus we'll talk about the snapping wick programs

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Speaker 1: and CINCINNTI plus unregulated group homes seven sixteen. Right now,

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Speaker 1: if you five KRCD talk station. You have an imported

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Speaker 1: the talk station seven twenty here if you five KRCD

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Speaker 1: talk station Brian Thomas with Citizen watch Dog. That's the

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Speaker 1: name of the podcast and that's who he is. He

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Speaker 1: is Todd zens Or, former Inspector General for the United

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Speaker 1: States of America. He understands documents, he understands obligations. He

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Speaker 1: understands well the legal realities and the challenges we face

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Speaker 1: as city taxpayers. I'll use we even though I don't

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Speaker 1: live in the city. Uh, following the money and seeing

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Speaker 1: if work was actually done pursuant the contracts, and when

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Speaker 1: we have run when we run into problems, finding out

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Speaker 1: where those problems lead. In this particular case, the lead

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Speaker 1: pipe scandal. So as you set it up, we're removing

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Speaker 1: the lead pipe. Good, that's good. It goes to a

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Speaker 1: receptacle that's supposed to store the lead pipe.

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Speaker 2: Fine.

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Speaker 1: A company is hired to remove that lead pipe. They're

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Speaker 1: supposed to receive a phone call when the receptacles full.

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Speaker 1: They never got a phone call because the receptacle remained

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Speaker 1: empty for five years. Where did the lead pipe go?

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Speaker 1: Big question? One person apparently on the team of lead

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Speaker 1: pipe removal. A city employee has been identified as someone

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Speaker 1: who was involved in the removal of the lead pipe

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Speaker 1: and putting it someplace else for some yet unknown company

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Speaker 1: scrap dealer person to remove it, probably to their financial advantage. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so fine, question, is lead pipe dangerous? Hazardous? I think

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Speaker 1: we can agree it is if they had to remove

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Speaker 1: it in the first place. I presume it passes the

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Speaker 1: lead pipe scrape test that they have to do. Were

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Speaker 1: there were the police alerted, this is the theft, and

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Speaker 1: I'm imagining Todd, you can correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: The money that you get, like if you took it

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Speaker 1: to the scrap yard yourself, they'll give you a handful

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Speaker 1: of cash in return for how much the lead weighs.

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Speaker 1: Whatever the chargy get ten cents a pound or whatever.

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Speaker 1: That's taxpayer money that should have gone back into the

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Speaker 1: city coffers. I presume if it had all gone according

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Speaker 1: to contract.

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Speaker 2: That's right under the contract, the recycling outfit or the

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Speaker 2: outfit that took it to the recycler, the city was

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Speaker 2: supposed to get a cut of those proceeds. So for

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Speaker 2: five years, whatever they would have gained is lost, and

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Speaker 2: that number has not been calculated.

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Speaker 1: And how could it be calculated unless the guys that

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Speaker 1: were responsible for removing it in the first place, the

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Speaker 1: city employees weighed first.

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Speaker 2: That's right. But the tell is in their corrective actions

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Speaker 2: to the audit. They list out all the things they

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Speaker 2: plan to do to fix the situation, and those are

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Speaker 2: the things that they should have been doing in the outset.

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Speaker 1: See right now, you're in my wheelhouse of late how

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Speaker 1: I mean, I keep referring apologies to my listeners. They

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Speaker 1: know what I'm going to say. But Dave had always

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Speaker 1: talks about these Internet of Things devices that the software

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Speaker 1: manufacturers never consider security first and foremost. They rush the

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Speaker 1: product out and don't realize it's filled with holes and bugs. Right,

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Speaker 1: they're not thinking about it. Why do our elected officials,

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Speaker 1: Why are they not charged with on some level like

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Speaker 1: a fiduciary obligation to the taxpayers they take the money

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Speaker 1: from to put fraud, waste, and abuse and the prevention

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Speaker 1: of that first and foremost in any program like this.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're you're singing my tune.

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Speaker 1: I know. That's why I love you so much, todd Senser.

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Speaker 1: So what are they now proposing now that they found

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Speaker 1: out we're all being ripped off.

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Speaker 2: Well, they want to keep records of how much, how

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Speaker 2: much lead pipe they remove, and how much they and

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Speaker 2: how much copper they install, which is which is another

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Speaker 2: issue here, huge money. There's nothing in the there's nothing

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Speaker 2: in any of the reports that I saw that the

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Speaker 2: auditor did a report and the waterworks did their own

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Speaker 2: internal investigation. And for me, if somebody stealing lead pipe,

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Speaker 2: scrap lead pipe, chances are they may have their eyes

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Speaker 2: also on the copper inventory.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you're damn right, because it's as so as copper

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Speaker 1: is exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so my point was you got to go over

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Speaker 2: and check your inventory of copper to see whether or

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Speaker 2: not that's been stolen as well. They just don't think

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Speaker 2: like that, Brian.

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Speaker 1: They don't because they don't care a whit where the

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Speaker 1: money comes from, and because they can take all they want,

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Speaker 1: apparently they don't need to follow it like you or

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Speaker 1: I would in our household.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The the big question for me is is do

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Speaker 2: they not pay attention deliberately because they don't they don't

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Speaker 2: want to point out things going wrong and they're pro

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Speaker 2: sesses or are they just not you know, in tune

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Speaker 2: with oversight? Can I boil it?

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Speaker 1: Down, nefarious or stupid, well something like that. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what it is. I'll put a blunt point on it

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Speaker 1: right there, DoD Genser, and I'm going to go for

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Speaker 1: a combination of all the above. The nefarious ones don't

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Speaker 1: want their program to be criticized. It's their program. They

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Speaker 1: didn't think about fraud, wasted abuse at the outset. And

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Speaker 1: the stupid are the ones that maybe realizes has happened

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Speaker 1: and just don't want to lift a finger to solve

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Speaker 1: the problem because oh, that means extra work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so five of the led one one of the

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Speaker 2: lead crew resigned and five of the lead crew were

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Speaker 2: reprimanded for being dishonest. But in that situation, yeah, the

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Speaker 2: first thing I would do is go check the copper inventory.

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Speaker 1: Reprimanded, Yes, for being dishonest. That's a soft way of

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Speaker 1: saying reprimanded for committing a crime. At least that's what

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Speaker 1: it appears to be.

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Speaker 2: They either didn't want to or they couldn't establish the

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Speaker 2: culpability of the other members of the lead crew.

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Speaker 1: You know, in a world filled with camera, I mean

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Speaker 1: you go back to the inventory, like, where is our

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Speaker 1: copper inventory sitting right now? Todd Zenzer, do you think

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Speaker 1: there are cameras that are constantly focused on that stack

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Speaker 1: of copper and other building materials that they're using for

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Speaker 1: the various city works projects.

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Speaker 2: I'd be surprised if that was the case.

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Speaker 1: Brian, Well, there's one more thing they can add to

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Speaker 1: the list.

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Speaker 2: Now, that's a good idea.

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Speaker 1: Todd Zenzer will bring it back. We got more controversies

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Speaker 1: snap and wig programs, group homes, aftab purvol sitting on

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Speaker 1: boards of directors for nonprofits that the city taxpayers are funding,

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Speaker 1: among other things that Todd Zenzer Citizen Watchdog has revealed.

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Speaker 1: Because no one in city council or within the city

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Speaker 1: government wants to bother to lift a finger to find

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Speaker 1: out where your money's being spent. Seven twenty six, Right

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Speaker 1: now fifty five krc DE Talk Station, Kate heavnsk Station

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Speaker 1: seven thirty Here fifty five krc DE Talk station. Real

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Speaker 1: pleasure as always having Todd Zenzer's Citizen Watchdog in studio,

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Speaker 1: and thank you Kevin, my dear friend Kevin. There's actually

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Speaker 1: an app out there, Todd, I scrap. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: this lead pipe situation with kind of pondering how much

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Speaker 1: a pound of lead might be worth it's thirty two

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Speaker 1: cents a pound time, I imagine it ended up being

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Speaker 1: a whole lot of money. They're pulling out a lot

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Speaker 1: of old lead pipe.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thousands of residents have had their lead pipe replaced

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Speaker 2: with copper pipe, thousands, thousands. It's been going on for

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Speaker 2: five or six years, and it's going to go on

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Speaker 2: for another I don't know how many, three, three to

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Speaker 2: five more years. I think.

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Speaker 1: All right, so they don't weigh when they pull it out.

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Speaker 1: It disappeared before it got to the appropriate receptacle bin.

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Speaker 1: Someone obviously absconded with a whole lot of money. Whoever

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Speaker 1: this scrap person was that took that lead pipe away

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Speaker 1: is more than Like, if you can get thirty two

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Speaker 1: cents a pound on the open market, then they're getting

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Speaker 1: more than that from to wherever they sell it, A

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Speaker 1: point I made earlier. How else could a scrapyard stay

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Speaker 1: in business. So they're making fat bank and we under

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Speaker 1: the contract with the people who were supposed to be

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Speaker 1: removing the we the city taxpayers, are suposed to get

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Speaker 1: some of this money back. So when you're talking thirty

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Speaker 1: two cents a pound with thousands and thousands of homes

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Speaker 1: that has got to add up to a lot of money.

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Speaker 1: I agree, it could reach felony level money, Todd, oh easily.

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Speaker 1: So makes me wonder, you know why law enforcement hasn't

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Speaker 1: been brought in and involved in this, because you know,

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Speaker 1: convicted criminals who were engage in this type of criminal

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Speaker 1: activity or quite often obligated to pay restitution to the victims.

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Speaker 2: That's correct, M.

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Speaker 1: But no criminal referral. Although you're mentioned in the emails

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Speaker 1: that they did give you back in requests in your

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Speaker 1: request for documents. Yes, congratulations, Todd Zenser. He's a thorn

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Speaker 1: in city side right now and it's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: So they were aware that you were looking into this,

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Speaker 1: and they actually had an internal email saying, hey, Todd

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Speaker 1: Zenser's looking into this issue. In other words, beware because

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Speaker 1: this guy will be all over us like white on Rice.

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Speaker 2: Well that wasn't in the email, but sometime so something

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, any profanities. You can't stay on the radio. No,

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Speaker 1: All right, well, let's tell you what You're not done

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Speaker 1: with this one. And I don't know, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what the steps are to get law enforcement involved, but

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Speaker 1: I think this certainly rises to a level of, you know,

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Speaker 1: a crime worthy of investigation. I suppose it remains a

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Speaker 1: large and looming question given the relationship between the mayor

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Speaker 1: and the city manager and their parent control over the

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Speaker 1: operations of the CINCINNTI Police Department. If the cincinnt Police

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Speaker 1: Department was referred to this, whether or not they would

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Speaker 1: actually follow through and do something that might put a

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Speaker 1: stain on the administration's reputation.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and the issue is going to be for the city, Well,

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Speaker 2: should we spend money getting to the bottom of this

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Speaker 2: when it's only going to make us look even worse.

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Speaker 1: So, oh, yes, it'd be responsible thing to do, regardless

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Speaker 1: of how bad it makes you look. You obviously have

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Speaker 1: learned your lesson. You have new practic This is in

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Speaker 1: protocols you're putting in place to ensure that this thing

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen again. We learn from our mistakes. We're moving forward.

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Speaker 1: We're going to watch out and be responsible. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, we're doing everything in our effort to get

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Speaker 1: that money back on behalf of these city taxpayers.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and they need to address the environmental issue created

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Speaker 2: by these scrap lead pipes in purv All. Mister Green, Well,

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Speaker 2: that's the thing that it's not really climate change. It's

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Speaker 2: more environmental.

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Speaker 1: So, in other words, real pollutants and real environmental problems

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Speaker 1: versus carbon dioxide.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, they should be more concerned about these lead

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Speaker 2: this scrap lead being dumped somewhere and not being recycled

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Speaker 2: and getting into the water supply. Which is ironic here

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Speaker 2: that a water department is going to be so careless

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Speaker 2: with scrap lead.

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Speaker 1: Pipes in the bottom of the mill creek. Yeah, although

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Speaker 1: I think we can all safely presume or assume if

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Speaker 1: you want, that it was actually sold out there, because

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Speaker 1: this does have fat bank on the open market, right,

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Speaker 1: so hopefully it's not in some place doing environmental.

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Speaker 2: And it went to a proper recycler.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, how many recyclers are there in the greater

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Speaker 1: Cincinnati area.

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Speaker 2: I haven't counted that, but there probably are not too many,

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Speaker 2: not too many couple, I think.

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Speaker 1: So you could just go to each of the very

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Speaker 1: few scrap dealers and have a direct question answer with

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Speaker 1: them about whether they bought any lead pipe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you just go out and do some interviewing. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: be very simple. It would be the logical thing to do.

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Speaker 2: Todd Well, they'll maybe they'll wind up doing that the

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Speaker 2: alternative is for the federal EPA or the Ohio EPA

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Speaker 2: coming in and starting asking questions.

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Speaker 1: You anticipated my next question. Todd. Also, I was wondering,

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Speaker 1: isn't this really kind of assumed or part of a

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Speaker 1: federal project to clean up all the lead.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's a there's a federal law called the Recovery

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Speaker 2: and Conservation the I can't remember the name of It's

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Speaker 2: called rickra Recovery Conservation.

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Speaker 1: Well, listen, they called the inflation Reduction acting inflation reduction.

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Speaker 1: I had nothing to do with inflation reduction, So call

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Speaker 1: it what you will. It's supposed to deal.

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Speaker 2: With pretty it's a pretty serious, very long Yeah. We

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Speaker 2: worked with it when I was a DOT on hazardous

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Speaker 2: transportation issues. We even prosecuted American airlines back in the

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Speaker 2: nineties for their their poor handling of hazardous material on

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Speaker 2: their aircraft.

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Speaker 1: So they're really well connected, lobby heavy kind of money

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Speaker 1: and interest group there.

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Speaker 2: Back then. The penalty was we negotiated was eight million dollars.

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Speaker 2: But and that was just for several containers, and their

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Speaker 2: lacks processes got them a fine at that level.

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Speaker 1: So maybe the simple fact that it's all gone missing

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Speaker 1: and is totally unaccounted for, would be sufficient in information

438
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:06,440
Speaker 1: to launch a federal investigation into this Rick potential Rick revilation. Right, well, okay,

439
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: there's some astute you know, us attorney out there, maybe

440
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: listening to the program might take it upon him or

441
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 1: herself to.

442
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,199
Speaker 2: Go and do just that. Well, it would be a

443
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,879
Speaker 2: worthwhile doing. I believe, I'm with sure one hundred percent

444
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 2: Todds Ends will continue. Yes, we'll get to the snap

445
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 2: and wig program next. Don't Go Away seven thirty six,

446
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: seven thirty seven fifty five Careseeage shy I seven forty

447
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 2: one fifty five car CIT Talk Station enlightening. It always

448
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 2: is when you're talking with todds Enzer about city council

449
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: and city affairs. We have been all morning so far

450
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: talking about this lead pipe scandal and criminal activity it

451
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,399
Speaker 2: relates to. And why don't we see somebody being charged

452
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 2: with crime for stealing lead pipe? Maybe that'll happen, but

453
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 2: let us pivot over to something else. It may very

454
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: well be criminal of the Cincinnati Snap and Whip wik programs.

455
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 2: Supplement of Nutrition's assistance program is a snap card. And

456
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 2: then you have Women, Infants and Children program That one's

457
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 2: been around since what the forties or something like that.

458
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:01,959
Speaker 2: Wick's been around since Nixon.

459
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: Nixon, Okay, all right, thought it might have been a

460
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: great society. Well, it doesn't matter. So two different programs, Yes,

461
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 1: who is supposed to run these? And how is it

462
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: run well? Or are they run?

463
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 2: Snap and WICK are both funded through the county in

464
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: their county programs. For example, the county administers SNAP administer's Medicaid.

465
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 2: There's a couple of other safety net programs that the

466
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:34,080
Speaker 2: county operates. But when WICK was first put in place

467
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 2: by the federal government, the requirements were such, this is

468
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: my understanding anyway, that there was some kind of medical

469
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: professionals or whatever that were required to be involved in

470
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 2: the program for because of nursing mothers and things like.

471
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: That, to verify eligibility.

472
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: And that apparently is not the case anymore.

473
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: I could sign up for WICK now it's probably so

474
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: easy to get around yet whatever oversight they might have.

475
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, but for some reason, and at the time,

476
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: the city Health Department was it, so they took responsibility

477
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 2: for the program. Well, now forty or however, many fifty

478
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: years later, the city is still operating it. And the

479
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: Internal Audit Auditor did an audit of the wik program

480
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: and identified a lot of mismanagement.

481
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 1: So go ahead and cut to the chase on what

482
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: mismanagement they identified.

483
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: Well, the programs operated out of ten different offices I

484
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: guess of the health district, and the auditor looked at

485
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,399
Speaker 2: six of those offices and found that they were not

486
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:46,120
Speaker 2: keeping track of their EBT card inventory. So, for example,

487
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: somebody working at the health department in the program, they

488
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: go and go to inventory and grab a stack of

489
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 2: fifty EBT cards that they're going to work with that

490
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: day or that week, or however long it takes to

491
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 2: use fifty EBT cards, and then they meet with the

492
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 2: constituent and figure out what benefits they're entitled to.

493
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 1: Wick recipient is the constituent, Yes, So they sit down

494
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: with that person.

495
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: Yes, and they determine what their eligibility is in terms

496
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 2: of how much benefit they're entitled to, and then they

497
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 2: charge up the card. Just like you go to the

498
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 2: grocery store and get a gift card.

499
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: They get an Apple gift card shirt exactly, and then

500
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: hand it to them and then hand it to them

501
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: or or well, we don't.

502
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: There's no inventory of the cards.

503
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 1: No inventory of the cards, which means someone of nefarious

504
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: intent could grab a stack of cards loaded up with

505
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 1: literally anybody's name and information on it, charge it to

506
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: any given amount that would be within the parameters of

507
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: the WIK program, and.

508
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,399
Speaker 2: Put it in their pocket exactly. So that could have

509
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 2: been going on exactly for a long time, so they.

510
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 1: Have no tracking of the wick card inventory period and

511
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 1: the story.

512
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: That was the result of the finding of the audit.

513
00:26:58,840 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 2: That's correct.

514
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 1: Well, I feel real comfortable about that one. Todd.

515
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: Well, my suggestion was, aside from the mismanagement, why don't

516
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 2: you just give that program back to the county who's

517
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: got experience doing snaps, got experience doing other safety net programs,

518
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 2: and the city doesn't really need the headaches, and it.

519
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 1: Would relieve the city taxpayers of the burden of that

520
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: many employees, however, many are working on the WICK card

521
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: program right.

522
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,239
Speaker 2: Yes, the money comes from the federal government to the

523
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: county and then to the city. You would eliminate the

524
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: city's role in that.

525
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: But then that would eliminate political patronage jobs to run

526
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,360
Speaker 1: the WICK program. They would have that many fewer bodies

527
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 1: to award jobs to.

528
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: Todd Yeah, I think they'd probably be able to find Well,

529
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: I think that being involved in these kinds of things

530
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: in the past and the federal government, you'd just basically

531
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: take the employees working on Wick and move them to

532
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: the county payroll and be done with it.

533
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: Well, that's an extraordinarily simple, logical and reasonable solution, Todds

534
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: ens or it could be done. Yeah, any interest that

535
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: you can find down in the City of Cincinnati and

536
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: the employees that they might want to go that direction.

537
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: Well, that was part of my comments yesterday at the

538
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: Budget and Finance Committee. I talked about both of these

539
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: audits and that I did suggest that to the city

540
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 2: council whether they'll pay attention.

541
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: No, they were paying with there were cell phones, weren't they.

542
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: I mean, do you feel do you feel like it's a.

543
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: Pointless gesture to show up and make these awesome points

544
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: that could benefit literally everyone and even improve their political

545
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: standing by getting on top of a problem that's obviously

546
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: a problem they just got made aware of. But listening

547
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: to what you have to say as opposed to playing

548
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: with their cell phone.

549
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: Well I do. I did sense that they were paying

550
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: more attention than they usually do.

551
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: Well, that's because they know you have their number. Hey,

552
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: you get emails circulated about you behind the scenes down there. Man.

553
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: You know you're having an impact. We'll bring back Todd

554
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: Zenzer or one more cover SENSEI though, is a great

555
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: thing to do is called care c Detalk Station Insights

556
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: scoop the brek Bart News after the top of the

557
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: hour news, followed by the Daniel Davis deep dive in

558
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: the meantime Citizen watch Dog Todd Zenser formac Us' attney,

559
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: former US Attorney General on these audits, and I've got

560
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: to go back to the audits really quick, because we

561
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: started with the audit of the lead pipe issue, an

562
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: internal audit of the wick snap problem that you just

563
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: explain and wonderfully so those I was surprised to even

564
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: know that the audits were done, because you do an audit,

565
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 1: you're going to find problems. But there are there is

566
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: an obligation under the audit standards for the auditors to

567
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: follow through if they find something wrong along the lines

568
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: of what you just explained to us. Correct, because where

569
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,719
Speaker 1: would it go if there wasn't something some follow through?

570
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: Right, That's right. The general it's called the Generally Accepted

571
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: Government Auditing Standards, and they say that if the auditor

572
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 2: identifies indications of fraud, they've got to run that down.

573
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: They got to determine and you know the extent of

574
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 2: the problem or whether there truly is a fraud problem.

575
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: And the internal audit manager, I'm not trying to be critical,

576
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: but they don't take that step for some reason, probably

577
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: a manpower or they're being told by their management.

578
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: You know, wait a second, there can't be a manpower issue,

579
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: because if they're obligated under law to apply these standards

580
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: and do the follow through, then you have no choice

581
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: put to hire people to do it.

582
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. The the solution for the auditor is not to

583
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: cite those standards when they issue their reports, but they

584
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: do anyway.

585
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: They do anyway, so they cite them and that gives

586
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 1: them protection even though they didn't follow the standards.

587
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: That's right, Okay, great, No, they tied.

588
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: By the way, the new mobile app to the snowplow

589
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: tracker app that the city rolled out, it's not working.

590
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 2: That's surprising, all right.

591
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: So anything give the other component of this wick card

592
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: problem again, not keeping track of the inventory wick cards

593
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: and not keeping the appropriate records all sounds to me

594
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: like it's riddle with fraud and abuse or at least potentially.

595
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: So you mentioned also that they have an obligation to

596
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: keep track of equipment purchase to run this program, like

597
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: the computers and other hardware that's needed to implement it.

598
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: That's right. The program gets about three point five million

599
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 2: dollars a year and that's used for benefits plus the

600
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 2: operation of the office, including or purchase of equipment, so

601
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: that equipment is basically federally funded. As a result, they've

602
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 2: got to keep a proper inventory, and the audit found

603
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 2: that that was not happening, so you'd have to go

604
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: back and reconstruct. You know, what equipment has been purchased

605
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: and is it still here? That's right.

606
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: So if you're not doing oversight of the equipment and

607
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: you have the authority under this program to purchase and

608
00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: acquire equipment, some let's say nefarious act might say, oh,

609
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: my kids need laptops or Christmas, order the equipment under

610
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: the WICK program and then just take it home with you.

611
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: Exactly. That's the risk. Uh huh wow.

612
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: Tod's answer just scraping the tip of the iceberg in

613
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: terms of all the problems he's identified. And you've got

614
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: document requests out for this. I suppose at some point,

615
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: I mean, is there some sort of legal you know,

616
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: some Kurt Hartman out there in the world file lawsuit

617
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: over this stuff.

618
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: Yet you know, it's I'm sure it's possible. It's just

619
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 2: a matter of whether or not you can gather the

620
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: resources to pay for something like that.

621
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: Well, it usually starts as a Freedom of Information Act request,

622
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: which they have to honor, and when they don't honor it,

623
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 1: that's how you end up in court getting the documents

624
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: you need, which then will serve as the basis for

625
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: the lawsuit you ultimately file your file because they didn't

626
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 1: follow protocols or otherwise found breaches of the law, et cetera.

627
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 1: That's right, all right, Kurt, get on it. Todd'll be

628
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: happy to help you on to that end. I mentioned

629
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: a nonprofit. You're working toward establishing the purpose of that.

630
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: If you get it going, will be well.

631
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: It's got a couple of different purposes. One is to

632
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 2: establish some way to sue the city, because if you

633
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: look back at the real reforms that have gone on

634
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: in Cincinnati has been the result of federal lawsuits or

635
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 2: other lawsuits. The city does not do these things voluntarily,

636
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: and so one objective is to establish an organization that

637
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: would take the lead in litigation against the city for

638
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: giving purposes exactly. And then the other is to elevate

639
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 2: or bring greater visibility to the whole oversight issue. The

640
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: city has no concept of oversight. It's just not part

641
00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: of their constitution. And that's needed. I mean, they've got

642
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: a two billion dollar budget and they've got a four

643
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 2: person internal auditor that is kept basically on a leash.

644
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: They need some oversight mechanism like an inspector general that

645
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 2: many many cities across the country have in order to

646
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 2: deliver a oversight program.

647
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: Well, and if I had to speculate, since we're out

648
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: of time, on who is holding that leash, I have

649
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: to imagine it's the city manager. Yes, all right, there

650
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: you go. We've had issues with her before, haven't we. Toddzinser,

651
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 1: Yes we have. Yes, we have Todd zens Er Citizen

652
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: Watchdogs the podcast. Follow what he's saying on Citizen Watchdog

653
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: and tune into the morning show and we have todds

654
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: inzer on and share the podcast with your friends. Go

655
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: to fifty five krs dot com. Joelo the podcast up later.

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Speaker 1: Stick around the insight scoop of Bright Barton News Financial,