1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: To night. Michael Brown joins me here, the former FEMA 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: director of talk show host Michael Brown. Brownie, No, Brownie, 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: You're doing a heck of a job. The Weekend with 4 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: Michael Brown broadcasting life from Denver, Colorado. It's the Weekend 5 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: of Michael Brown, Denver, Colorado, the heart of Commie Colorado. 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: Glad to have you joining the program today. Text line 7 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: as usual is always open three three one zero three 8 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: three three one zero three on your message APT keyword 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: Mike or Michael, and then do me a favor and 10 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: be sure and follow me on x at Michael Brown 11 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: USA and all the others Instagram and Facebook. Also, so 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: here's Larry Krasner, you know, claiming that, oh my gosh, 13 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: ICE is committing crimes and if you come to Philadelphia, which, 14 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: by the way, what happened happened in Minneapolis, and it 15 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: happened in Portland, it didn't happen in Philadelphia. Yet, make 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: note that the elected district attorney still feels an obligation 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: to come out because this is what they want to do. 18 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: They're signaling to the so called protesters that hey, I 19 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 1: think what happened in Minneapolis. I think that the ICE 20 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: agents were committing a crime. Well, what crime are ICE 21 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: agents committing by enforcing immigration law? Well, whatever crimes that 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 1: the dumbassies that are running Philadelphia seem fit to fabricate, 23 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,639 Speaker 1: as with the you know, the call by Mark Kelly, 24 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: the Senator from Arizona, to for the military to disobey undefined, 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: so called unlawful orders. Krasner may be in the minds 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: of some people, not necessarily, I don't think necessarily. So 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 1: he's getting pretty close to committing sedition, encouraging lawbreaking, encouraging 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: people to attack federal officials. It's really gotten to that 29 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: point in my opinion, He continued. 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: You. 31 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: Do you hear me ICE agents? Do you hear me 32 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: National Guard? Do you hear me military? Wait a minute, 33 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: now he's even threatening the military, So we're gonna put 34 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: let's say that if you want to hear more about this, 35 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: I talked about it during the weekday program. It'll be 36 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: on the podcast. Do they really want to call in 37 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: the National Guard? Does the governor of does Josh Shapiro 38 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: want to call in the National Guard to protect people 39 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: from ICE agents in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh? Does Tim Walls 40 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: really one of the dumbest people I think I know 41 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: on the planet. Does he really want to call in 42 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: the national the Minnesota National Guard, Because as we know 43 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: from history and Supreme Court rulings, they can call in 44 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: the National Guard all they want to, and then the 45 00:02:56,880 --> 00:03:00,519 Speaker 1: president can federalize them, just as Eyesen Howard did in 46 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven in Little Rock, or as in as 47 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: Kennedy did in nineteen sixty two in Arkansas. Or maybe 48 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: I'll get that backwards. And then what. 49 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 3: You're going to jail if you commit crimes in the 50 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: city of Philadelphia, you. 51 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: Will, Okay, how about you say that to all of 52 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: the drugs and the you know, the drug dealers and 53 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: the thugs and all the criminals you know, whether it's 54 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: organized crime or disorganized crime or anything. How about that? 55 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: How about you clean up Philadelphia first and quit worrying 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: about ICE agents. And it's not just the district attorney. 57 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: This is the sheriff of Philadelphia, Rochelle Blal, who has 58 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: previously declared her unwillingness to cooperate with federal law enforcement. 59 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: She's more than happy to make the arrests. 60 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 4: I'm most shall of that share of the city and 61 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 4: county villa. And I say her name, this should not 62 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 4: have happen. 63 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: You know what, She's absolutely right, Renee Good should still 64 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: be alive. But she is the proximate cause of her 65 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: own death by her actions and her wife's actions and 66 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: all of her cohorts around her who were blockading that 67 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: street that day in Minneapolis. So say your name all 68 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: you want, and I believe, don't get me wrong, I 69 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: think it's tragic. I think it's tragic anytime that, you know, 70 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: some dumbass turns around and pulls a gun on the 71 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: cop and the cop throws them away, or somebody breaks 72 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: into the home of a you know, an eighty year old, 73 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: you know, Vietnam vet who is just tired of his 74 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: home being broken into, so he blows them back out 75 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: the door. But I understand it, and I approve of it. 76 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: They're here today. 77 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: Let know that law enforcement professionals wills not that they 78 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: made up ice probably trunk a new army to attack 79 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 3: citizens of the United States. 80 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: I want you to put yourself for a moment in 81 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: the shoes of the useful idiots who are listening to this. 82 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: People who don't like Donald Trump don't like immigration enforcement. 83 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: They probably don't first of all, they don't like even 84 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: if you've got a riot going on for whatever reason. 85 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:47,239 Speaker 1: Forget immigration, it's going on because of some other reasons. 86 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: It's going on because the Philadelphia Eagles won the Super 87 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: Bowl again, and so they're out rioting these people. These 88 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: law enforcement people are trying to convince you that what 89 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: those rioters are doing celebrating a Super Bowl win or 90 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: you know, a mostly peaceful protest where they're burning down buildings, 91 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: whether it be in Portland or Minneapolis or anyplace else 92 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: in the country, that they're not the criminals. The criminals 93 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: are the people who are trying to stop them from 94 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: doing that. Have you had enough of this yet, because 95 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: what's really going on is a battle. The death of 96 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: this woman, Renee Good, has been all over the news 97 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: described as suddenly it was a shocking event. I don't 98 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 1: think we should talk about it that way. She had 99 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: We now know she has immersed herself for weeks in 100 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: organized activities, in a network that puts together these organized 101 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: activities that is has the mission statement of disrupting federal 102 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: immigration enforcement. It's an actual network. It's not some you know, 103 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: just ad hoc. Oh we just suddenly, you know, I 104 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: saw something on Facebook, so I thought I'd go out 105 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: and you know, enjoying the crowd. No, this is a network. 106 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: It's called ice Watch, and it doesn't just observe or 107 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: document law enforcement activity. You know. I've heard many people 108 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: describe her as a legal observer. She was not a 109 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: legal observer. If she was, she was breaking the law 110 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: by observing what she was doing, not because she doesn't 111 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: she has the right to go legally observe from the sidewalk. 112 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: You don't have the right to legally observe by blocking 113 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: a public roadway. In fact, you don't have the right 114 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: to block a public roadway just because you're tired of 115 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: people driving down your street. I've got one guy on 116 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: my street that, you know, sometimes not always, but sometimes 117 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: I think comes around the curve just a little too fast. 118 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: Maybe what I should do is just go out and 119 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: just park. You know, not gonna park my Beamer, but 120 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: I'll park my old jeep grand Cherokee out and block 121 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: the street, force them to slow down. How long before 122 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 1: somebody complains? And I've got a deputy sheriff out ticketing 123 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: me for obstructing a public roadway. But somehow she thinks, 124 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: because she wears the moniker, I'm a legal observer. That 125 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: she's immune from the law, or that she's immune from 126 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: the law of physics for that matter. They don't want 127 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: to observe or document law enforcement activity. No, this network 128 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: trains these people to interfere physically. They train them to 129 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: refuse lawful commands, to block vehicles, they train them to 130 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: use their own cars as tools of obstruction, and then 131 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: they create a scene. It's almost as if they've got 132 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: a movie director out there, and it's designed to create 133 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: virtual outrage. I'm so tired of the rage in this country. 134 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: But it's not incidental to this movement. It's central to 135 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: its strategy. Those of you who have listened to the program, 136 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: either on the weekend or during the weekday, know that 137 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: I've gone through in depth. You can find it. It'll 138 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: be in the titles. You can go back and find 139 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,440 Speaker 1: the podcast where I've described the Cloward Pivet strategy. Now, 140 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: this is not exactly the Cloward pivot strategy, because they 141 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: are indeed trying to create chaos, and they are indeed 142 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: trying to destroy the system. But Cloward Piven was originally 143 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: designed to do chaos and destroy the welfare system so 144 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: that they could put in a socialist system. This is 145 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,320 Speaker 1: more along the line of rules for radicals, although I 146 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: think Cloward pivem fits also. This is not incidental to 147 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: the movement. This is their mission state. I'll be right back. 148 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,319 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Weekend with Michael Brown. Glad to 149 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: have you with me. Appreciate you tuning in. Text line, 150 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: of course, has always opened three three, one zero three 151 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: keyword Mike or Michael. We're talking about what happened in Minneapolis, 152 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: and I'm trying to describe to you that this is 153 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: this was not a random event. This is well it's 154 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: in a course vernacular. It's fafo. And I wasn't aware 155 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: of this. But to show you just how these people operate, 156 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 1: I wasn't aware until somebody sent me a text, which 157 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: is why I appreciate the text line so much. She 158 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: has a or someone is organized a GoFundMe campaign for 159 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: the surviving wife and the child. Now, I don't whether 160 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: I think she abandoned two children in Colorado. I don't 161 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: know whether it's still here or not, but she's I've heard, 162 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: so it may or may not be true that she 163 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: abandoned two children here, moved to Minnesota and has a 164 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: child there too, But that just gofund me one point 165 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: five million dollars. One point five million dollars. They've closed 166 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: a gofund me account and they're putting it in a 167 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: trust I supposed to keep them from just wasting the 168 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: money away, so I at least give them credit for that. 169 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: But one point five million dollars, hmmm, that's kind of interesting. 170 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: You you engage in an illegal activity, you FAFO, and 171 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: then you end up DRT dead right there, as I 172 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: described in some taxpayer relief shots. And now the public, 173 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: using all of their guilt and all of their compassion, 174 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: raised one point five million dollars for Wow, you want 175 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: to you know, if you're desperate and want to raise 176 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: money for your family and you're a suicidal I guess 177 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: go out and you know, try to run over ad 178 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: ice agent. But I don't want you to think that 179 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: all of this was somehow coincidental. It was just a 180 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: series of you know, unfortunate events. No, this is something 181 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: that was pre planned. This is something that any rational 182 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: person I got to emphasize and pallicize the word rational. 183 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: Any rational person would know this could be a likely outcome. 184 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: What were you doing on Monday, December twenty nine, between 185 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: two and five thirty pm. Do you remember. I have 186 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,839 Speaker 1: to go back and look at my calendar, but I 187 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: pretty much I know it's still on vacation, So I 188 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: don't think I was reading the news, and I certainly 189 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: wasn't going to any sort of training session. But on 190 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: Monday December twenty nine, between two and five thirty pm, 191 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: an ice Watch training session was being publicly promoted and held. 192 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: And then on Monday January five, between six and seven 193 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: thirty pm in Minneapolis, a local ice Watch had a 194 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: welcome and orientation meeting. Ay COMONNDE, will have some cookies 195 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: and kool aid, and well they're probably drinking the kool aid, 196 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 1: and well we'll get you going. So this woman and 197 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: her partner went to at least one of those events, 198 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 1: if not too. I can't ascertain both, but I know 199 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: they attended at least one of the events. So this 200 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: is not a social gathering. This is a training session 201 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: trained to do certain things. In particular, you know, they 202 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: are identifying the tactics for knowing what is an ice vehicle? 203 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: What does an ice vehicle look like? How do you 204 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: identify an ice vehicle? How do you track the agents 205 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: as they move across different locations. How do you block 206 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: a public roadway? How do you refuse a command in 207 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: such a way that it appears to be non threatening, 208 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: yet still refusing a command? And how do you maintain 209 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: the confrontation between yourself and the ICE agent just long 210 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: enough to attract a camera and a crowd and yet 211 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: avoid anything happening. I guess her timing was off. I 212 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: think she stayed just a little too long, don't you. 213 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: So that was Monday, December twenty nine, and then Monday 214 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: January five, and then two days later on Wednesday, January seven. 215 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: She took her lessons and put them into practice, federal 216 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: officials have said, and I think the video evidence supports 217 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: that she and her partner had actually been stalking, impeding, 218 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: and blocking ICE officers for hours before we see the shooting. 219 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: The Department of Homeland Security says that she had been 220 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: following agents in at least two prior locations that morning, 221 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: and is reported to have positioned her vehicle to obstruct 222 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: the movement. This was not a single encounter. This is 223 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: what I would call a rolling confrontation. Now you've surely 224 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 1: watched enough movies. If you haven't, then let me describe 225 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: it for you. You've seen the movies where you know, 226 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: you got a guy who is you know, maybe he's 227 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: maybe he's the good guy. The bad guy doesn't make 228 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: any difference. But the good guy of the bad guy 229 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: is driving along the streets of Manhattan and suddenly he 230 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: finds the roadway in front of him blocked, and so 231 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: he's wanting to escape. So he turns round fine, or 232 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: he looks over his shoulder to back up. The roadway 233 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: behind him is blocked. Now he knows what's about to 234 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: go down. Now, what if that person on that street 235 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: in Manhattan, or for that matter, of that street in 236 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: Minneapolis happens to be a law enforcement officer. You know 237 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: what a block eight is. I know what a blockade is. 238 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: Of course, you immediately kind of the you know, the 239 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: hair on your neck stands up, a little bit of goosebumps, 240 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: the adrenaline starts to flow, and you know that a 241 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: confrontation is about to occur. And I describe it that 242 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: way because that's exactly what these people want. They want 243 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: the confrontation, they want the nervousness. It's almost as if 244 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: they they don't realize that they're actually being suicidal. They 245 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: don't really, I mean it would be no different. Look, 246 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: I haven't been stopped in a long time, but having 247 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: represented high we patrol them before, represented police officers before, 248 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: when I was practicing law, I have a standard practice. 249 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: If I ever get stopped, turn on the I turn 250 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: on the interior lights, roll down my window the passenger 251 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: side window, put my hands on the wheel, stare straight forward. 252 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: Even when the officer approaches me. I don't to the 253 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: officer until he speaks, and then I keep my hands 254 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: on the steering wheel until he speaks, and I look 255 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: at him. And when he asks my rest life for 256 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,919 Speaker 1: my driver's license and registration, I will then at that 257 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: point say they're in the console or they're in the 258 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: glove compartment. May I reach for them? Because I don't 259 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: want any misunderstanding without there anything wrong or not, or 260 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: even whether the CoP's belligerent or not, whether he's having 261 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 1: a good day or a bad day. Now go back 262 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: to the day. If this occurred Wednesday, nine thirty in 263 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 1: the morning, the Minneapolis cops have already responded to a 264 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: shooting call. The critical moments occurred just minutes earlier, a 265 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: shooting call, in addition to a blockade and your law enforcement. 266 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: You're an ice agent. What are you thinking? You think 267 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: about that? And I'll be right back. 268 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 2: To night. 269 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: Michael Brown joins me here, the former FEMA director of 270 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: talk show host Michael Brown. Brownie, no, Brownie, You're doing 271 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: a heck of a job the Weekend with Michael Brown. 272 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Weekend with Michael Brown. Glad to 273 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 1: have you with me. I appreciate you tuning in. Here's 274 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: why the text line is so great. Number three three 275 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: one zero three keyword Michael, Michael, I hadn't thought about this, 276 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: but this is a great example. This is seven years old, 277 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: seven years old, and it shows you how we tend 278 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: to We all tend to compress time. I'm horrible and 279 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: I can flate time all the time. Something had happened 280 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 1: seven years ago. When when I looked at this man 281 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: before I play it, you may think to yourself, that 282 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: was just a few years ago. Oh no, it was 283 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: seven years ago. But this shows you how progressivism progresses 284 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: and how it builds and builds and builds on itself 285 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: over time. May I remind you, as someone just reminded 286 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: me on the text line, But yes, they were calling 287 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: for this kind of stuff in two thousand. What was 288 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: this June of twenty eighteen, Congresswoman Maxine Water. 289 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, you have members of your cabinet that are being 290 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 2: booed out of restaurants, who have protest is taking up 291 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 2: at that house who sang no no sleep, no sleep. 292 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: And guess what, We're gonna win this battle because while 293 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 2: you try and coach the Bible just sessions and others, 294 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 2: you really don't know the Bible. God is on our side, 295 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: on the side of the children, on the side of 296 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: what's right, on the side of what's honorable, on the 297 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: side of understanding that if we can't protect the children, 298 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: we can't protect an And so let's say the gods, 299 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: and let's make sure we show up wherever we. 300 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: Have to show up. 301 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: And if you see anybody from that cabinet in a restaurant, 302 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get 303 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: out and you create a crowd, and you go back 304 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: on them and you tell them they're not welcome anymore anywhere. 305 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,719 Speaker 2: We've got to get the children connected to their parents, 306 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: the children. 307 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: And against that. How do you do with immigration? But 308 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: you show up, you create some chaos, you create a crowd, 309 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: you create a disturbance, and yeah, that's been the plan 310 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: all along, and that's what they're carrying out. So let's 311 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 1: go back Wednesday, January seven, three days ago, the Minneapolis 312 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: cops had already responded to a shooting call, and now 313 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: frame by frame analysis shows officers approaching her Honda pilot 314 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: at nine seven eight in the morning. Shots fired. We're 315 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: at nine thirty am. Officers can be heard ordering her 316 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: to exit the vehicle. Yes, they're yelling at her. 317 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: You know. 318 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: Let me let me put a footnote right there. Law 319 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: enforcement is not always pretty. It's not always something that 320 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: we look at and go ooh. He just slammed him 321 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: to the ground. Yes, in order to get control of 322 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: the situation. If someone is resisting arrest, refusing to follow orders, 323 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: he is, you know, you can you can cross the line. 324 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: You can't slam their head and just pound it into 325 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: the pavement. But if someone's resisting arrest, you can do 326 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: what you need to do to get them on the 327 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: ground so you can get them handcuffed, to protect yourself, 328 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: your fellow officers, any public just watching anybody else, and 329 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 1: to effect the arrest. I use this example, and that's 330 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: kind of getting old now, but I think it's a 331 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 1: great example. If if your grandmother dies of unnatural causes, 332 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 1: you want to know what the cause is, so you 333 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: may have an autopsy done. You want the results. You 334 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: don't want to see the autopsy. Trust me, you don't 335 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: ever want to see an autopsy unless you're a medical examiner, 336 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: or you're a doctor, or you're a biologist, or you're 337 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: you're a hunter and you know what it's like to 338 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: cut into a to an elk or whatever. You don't 339 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: want to see it because it's not very pretty. Saw 340 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: that skull open, saw that chest open, put the clamson, 341 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: open that chest up, open everything up, start digging around. Yeah, 342 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: you don't want to You don't want to see your 343 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: grandmother like that, just like we don't want to see 344 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: arrests that have to get a little tough, but nonetheless 345 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,920 Speaker 1: we do so again. Shops fired at nine thirty am. 346 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: According to the Minneapolis Police Department, they're responding to a 347 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: shooting call, so the ice agent snow because they're monitoring 348 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: the radio traffic. And then at nine thirty seven am, 349 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: seven minutes later, seven minutes, eight seconds later, they can 350 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: be heard ordering her to exit the vehicle. And yeah, 351 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: they're screaming at her. I'd be screaming at them too. Instead, 352 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: the vehicle was put in reverse. It backed several feet 353 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: while the officer's hands were on the window, on the 354 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: door handle and actually reaching inside. Now, just before all 355 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: of that occurred, the driver, missus Good, had dropped off 356 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: her partner several blocks away. She was walking up to 357 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: the scene, positioning herself to video what was going on. Now, 358 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: that detail should not be overlooked because the filming is 359 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: part of the tree. It's not incidental. She just didn't 360 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: do it because, oh, look, my wife's up there and she's, 361 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: you know, arguing with an ice agent. No, that's that's 362 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: because they wanted, created expected and wanted to record the confrontation. 363 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 1: They were expecting an escalation. She expected something to happen 364 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: so that she could record it and then send it 365 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: out and have a go viral all over social media 366 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: and again inflame the emotions of everybody that doesn't understand 367 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: all of everything that went before and after that probably 368 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: what thirty second video, and then the wife joins in 369 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 1: the taunting. At one point, she even attempted to get 370 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: back in the car from the passenger side, just as 371 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: her wife was putting it into reverse. So it was 372 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: total chaos, but it was chaos with a purpose. Don't 373 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: forget that it was chaos. The purpose Now, just to 374 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: give you a time frame. That was at nine thirty 375 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: seven eight nine am, thirty seven minutes and eight seconds 376 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: in the morning, nine thirty seven eight am at nine 377 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: thirty seven thirteen. Got that five seconds later one Mississippi two, 378 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: Mississippi three, Mississippi four, Mississippi five, Mississippi boom. Now, if 379 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: you look at the video and the meta data analysis, 380 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: it shows that she put the car in reverse or 381 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, put the car back into drive, accelerated toward 382 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: the agent just before the shots. Everybody has slowed it 383 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: down because you know, here's what's slowing down. Video has 384 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: two effects. One, it helps give you a frame by 385 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: frame analysis. But to the untrained eye, it distorts the timeline. 386 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:09,400 Speaker 1: So when you look at five seconds, but you look 387 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: at that five seconds over fifteen seconds, you can draw 388 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: a lot different conclusions than you should. So the agent 389 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: gets struck. Three shots are fired in rapid succession. She 390 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: was transported to a medical center, and she's pronounced dead. 391 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: Very little is talked about, but after the shooting, the 392 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: spouse was captured on video. I played this video last 393 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: week this past week, that it was her fault. She'd 394 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:47,159 Speaker 1: been pressured. She had pressured her wife to join ice Watch. 395 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: She said, she pressured her to be there that morning. 396 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: She said that if not for her, her wife would 397 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: not have been killed. Now, as a lawiy, I'm telling 398 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,640 Speaker 1: you those are incredibly important statements because she made those 399 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: contents perraneous with the incident. Oh my gosh, I shouldn't 400 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 1: have done this, but it's all my fault. And then 401 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: she gets cleaned up because the video of the original 402 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: video shows her kind of, you know, kind of sweaty, 403 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: and she's distraught, and she's you know, her hair's all 404 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: messed up, and she's really you know, she's upset. Those 405 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: are important to me as a lawyer, because that's what 406 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: somebody is thinking immediately after after a traumatic event, not 407 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: two hours later, after you've gotten into a CNN studio 408 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 1: where they've cleaned you up, put makeup on, sat you down, 409 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: told you what they'd like to ask you about. And 410 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 1: have you ever have you ever seen a television interview 411 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: where the interviewer is asking a series of questions and 412 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: then the last question is something. It's the conclusion that 413 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: they want you, the person being interviewed to say so. 414 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: The interviewer might say so, then you must have thought 415 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: that the sky was blue and the and the person 416 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: being interviewed says, yes, that's right, the sky was blue. 417 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: That's exactly what CNN was doing. Now people want to 418 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: dismiss the contemporaneous statements as some form of grief. No, 419 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: you don't dismiss those. In a court of law, they 420 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: would align too closely with the structure the incentives of 421 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: the movement, too close to the event to be ignored. 422 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:35,760 Speaker 1: They would be incredibly important evidence in a trial. Yeah, 423 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: and this is all being done on purpose. I'll be 424 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 1: right back. Welcome back to the Weekend with Michael Brown. 425 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: This segment, I like for you to get your crayons 426 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: and your big chief tablet out is. I want to 427 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: make sure you understand something as we move forward through 428 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: this news store that is absolutely inherent for you to 429 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: understand about an individual, whether that is a cop or 430 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: a civilian, about the law of self defense. And in 431 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: modern American jurisprudence self defense, what justifies the use of 432 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: force is almost always the defender's reasonable perception of an 433 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: imminent threat. It is not. It is not whether the 434 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,719 Speaker 1: assailant in fact even intended or was even able to 435 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: carry out the threat. Put it a little differently, the 436 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: focus is on what the situation reasonably looked like to 437 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: the defendant, the one who is being threatened at the time, 438 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: rather than on the perpetrator's ultimately proven state of mind 439 00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: or the actual dangerousness. It is the perceived threat. This 440 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: is a core rule, reasonable belief, not actual danger. Almost 441 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: every jurisdiction in this country framed self defense around a 442 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: reasonable belief or reasonable perception standard. The defendant must actually 443 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: believe that they face an imminent unlawful threat of force. 444 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: I know that subjective, but that's the rule, and that 445 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: belief must be a reasonable person in the same circumstances 446 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: could have held that's the objective prong of the test. 447 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: The first one that they actually believe is subjective. The 448 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: second prong, that the belief must be reasonable, is objective, 449 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: and that's a reasonable person, so put yourself in that situation. 450 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: Courts have therefore routinely instructed juries that actual danger is 451 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: not necessary so long as under the circumstances there was 452 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: an appearance of peril that would cause a reasonable person 453 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: in that position to fear death or great bodily harm. 454 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: A classic formulation appears in a case out of Minnesota, 455 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: State versus Baker. The court approves an instruction to the 456 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: jury that says, this actual danger is not necessary to 457 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: justify self defense. Hey, Minnesotans, are you listening? The second 458 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: jury instruction in State versus Baker, Minnesota Supreme Court nineteen 459 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: sixty eight long held jurisprudence in that state. If one 460 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: is confronted with the appearance of danger that arouses in 461 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: a reasonable person an honest conviction of impending death or 462 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: great bodily harm, and the person acts on that appearance quote, 463 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: his right of self defense is the same whether such 464 00:31:53,400 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: danger is real or merely apparent. Now, to make sure 465 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: you understand that, as you hear Larry Krasner in Philadelphia 466 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: screen about Ice committing crimes, these people are lying to 467 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: you about the law, and that just infuriates now similar formulations. 468 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: Minnesota is not unique, So don't think I'm choosing Minnesota 469 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: because it's unique. Wisconsin pattern instructions. A person acting in 470 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: self defense may be mistaken about perceiving an imminent threat, 471 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: provided the mistake was reasonable, So you could even be wrong, 472 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: but as long as you're being reasonable about it. Oh, 473 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: I thought he was going to hit me. I thought 474 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: she was coming toward me. It certainly appeared to me 475 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 1: from my vantage point that she was going to hit me. 476 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: In fact, she did hit him. Go to Massachusetts. I 477 00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: wanted to pick these two states because they're liberal states. 478 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: In Massachusetts, the practice is this, courts evaluate the case 479 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: quote from the pertive of the defendant at the time, 480 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: so the person that feels the threat. They focus on 481 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: whether there was a quote reasonable perception of a threat, 482 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: not just actual harm, not actual intent, just whether the 483 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: person who feels the threat had a reasonable perception of 484 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: a threat. Now, jurisdictions do differ on how far they 485 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: go in privileging or agreeing with or allowing that perception. 486 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: Perfect self defense mean there's a complete justification to do 487 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: that generally requires both an actual belief and that the 488 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: belief be objectively reasonable. Imperfect self defense in some states 489 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: recognizes a genuinely held but unreasonable belief, which can mitigate 490 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: murder down to manslaughter by negating malice even though the 491 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: force is not fully justified. So you know, you might 492 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: be imperfect it might be that, oh, you shouldn't have 493 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: but we understand that it was imperfect, but you're not 494 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: gonna be charged with murder. You shouldn't have done it manslaughter. Instead, 495 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 1: the model penal code textually speaks in terms of by them. 496 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: I shouldn't discussilever that. The model penal code is something 497 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: that the the national State Legislative Councils put together, as 498 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: if you want to write self defense, you want to 499 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: write laws, here are some model codes that we put out. 500 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 1: It's very well recognized and it's very widely used. The 501 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: model penal code textually speaks in terms of whether the 502 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: actor believes force is immediately necessary, which some courts and 503 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,560 Speaker 1: commentators read as a little more subjective, But in practice, 504 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: US law usually couples that with a reasonableness or or 505 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: a normatively constrained standard. In other words, the perceived threat 506 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 1: doctrine is clearest in a mistake of fact, where the 507 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: assailant is not actually dangerous. Now, all the training and 508 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: litigation materials acknowledge that a significant faction of justified police 509 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: shootings involve a mistaken yet reasonable belief in an imminent 510 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:26,280 Speaker 1: threat of death or serious bodily harm. Emphasized that legal 511 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: analysis keys off perception and reasonableness, not later discovered facts. 512 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 1: So for all of these people out there screaming about 513 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: how she was murdered, she was killed, he committed a crime, 514 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: y'all's shut up and sit down. You really should shut 515 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: up and sit down. In all of these the defender's 516 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: liability doesn't turn on the attackers true intent, not even 517 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: on the attacker's true capability, but on whether the defender's perception, 518 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: given all of the observable circle ccumstances, met that jurisdiction's 519 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: reasonableness standard. So, just to give you a jurisprudential through line, 520 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: I'd say this self defense hinges on a defender's reasonable 521 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: belief in imminent unlawful force, not on the actual intent, 522 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 1: not on the actual ability, not on later proven danger 523 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: posed by another person. Provided that belief is honestly held. 524 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 1: That's subjective. But as long as it's honestly held and 525 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 1: it meets the relevant reasonable test, whether it's objective or 526 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: modified subjective, the defender's conduct can be fully justified even 527 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,320 Speaker 1: if the perpetrator never intended to harm the defender, or 528 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: is even incapable of harming the defender. Keep that in 529 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: mind as the cabal keeps trying to convince you that 530 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,239 Speaker 1: this ICE agent did something wrong. And then, just as 531 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: a practical exercise, put yourself in that position. Yeah, tell 532 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: me what you would have done. I'll be right back 533 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 2: M hm.