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Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Way ONBS Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: Well, happy Thanksgiving all. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 2: I had two good Thanksgivings. Our guests probably had four

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Speaker 2: or five, four or five thanksgivings. Because he is the

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Speaker 2: King of Thanksgiving. I suppose you heard me refer to

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Speaker 2: you as the King of Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 3: My friends called me mister Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 2: Oh there you go. Now the case could be made

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Speaker 2: for that. First of all, who is this King of Thanksgiving?

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Speaker 2: His name is Richard Pickering. He's been on this show before,

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Speaker 2: he's been on with me before, I'm not sure, on

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Speaker 2: Night Side. And he's a super fan favorite and knows

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Speaker 2: more about Thanksgiving than anyone else probably on the planet.

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Speaker 2: You have more Thanksgivings per year than anyone I know.

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Speaker 2: And who better a candidate for the King of Thanksgiving?

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Speaker 2: So happy Thanksgiving too. You are the deputy director and

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Speaker 2: a senior historian at the Plymouth Patoxic Museums, which is

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Speaker 2: the headquarters of Thanksgiving. It is really the actual headquarters.

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Speaker 2: It's down there where there's the Mayflower two. It's really there.

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Speaker 2: And even though I'm kind of far away here in Boston,

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Speaker 2: I almost feel I can almost feel the first Thanksgiving

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Speaker 2: due to your descriptions from the past, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to get some more of those descriptions. Why don't you

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Speaker 2: start by telling us what Thanksgiving is like at the

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Speaker 2: Plymouth Pawtuxi Museums.

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Speaker 3: For me, the day started with a drive time program

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Speaker 3: and then we went right into three different seedings of

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Speaker 3: the story of Thanksgiving, which is the dinner that was

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Speaker 3: served at Harvard College after Lincoln declared two Thanksgivings in

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Speaker 3: eighteen sixty three. So I have indigenous staff there, I

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Speaker 3: have Colonial staff, and we're doing the background on the

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Speaker 3: seventeenth century between the courses of the meal.

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Speaker 2: So you do three seatings each of multiple courses. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and each one of those you narrate the whole thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you tie all the dishes together and tell the story.

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Speaker 3: And they're three hundred and fifty people at each seating

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Speaker 3: in rooms that are back to back. So essentially, when

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Speaker 3: I'm in one room, my staff is in the other,

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Speaker 3: and then we flip and we just keep the meal

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Speaker 3: moving that way.

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Speaker 2: And what is the food that is related to the

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Speaker 2: Lincoln or related Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 3: It's the classic New England Thanksgiving dinner. So the guests

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Speaker 3: are really happy because they're having a historical experience, but

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Speaker 3: the food is not a bit unfamiliar because having been

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Speaker 3: at the museum so long, I know, if you don't

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Speaker 3: have the classic Thanksgiving meal, you haven't had Thanksgiving that year.

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Speaker 2: So you used to do the meal as a version

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Speaker 2: of the meal that was what the actual people had

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Speaker 2: in sixteen twenty one, which didn't bear much resemblance to

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Speaker 2: what people expect.

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Speaker 3: Correct, So we've broken that out and we now call

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Speaker 3: that a harvest feast. So a person who wants to

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Speaker 3: do seventeenth century dining wants a harvest feast. If they

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Speaker 3: want classic New England Thanksgiving, they do the story of Thanksgiving?

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Speaker 2: All right? So you did three savings of three hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty people, and we do two more tomorrow. And

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Speaker 2: what did you do after that? After? Did you get

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Speaker 2: a break before you came here? No?

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Speaker 3: I walked right out of the six o'clock dinner and

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Speaker 3: got in a car to come here.

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Speaker 2: So that's pretty great. I'm always very thankful and super

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Speaker 2: impressed that you make your way after that probably brutal

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Speaker 2: day and come all the way up here to be

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Speaker 2: on the radio. I'm so thankful.

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Speaker 3: Well, think of all the memories we've had. I think

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Speaker 3: of the years when we were together every Thanksgiving night,

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Speaker 3: And there was the night the woman who was eighty

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Speaker 3: or eighty one called in and she said, Richard, I've

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Speaker 3: just learned I'm a Mayflower descendant. Could you tell me

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Speaker 3: about my grandparents? And to share that experience with somebody.

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Speaker 2: It must be meaningful for you to be able to

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Speaker 2: share that.

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Speaker 3: It is to enrich for life and the stories that

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Speaker 3: I get. When I came back as the deputy executive director,

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Speaker 3: we were doing a Lincoln inspired dinner that was filled

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Speaker 3: with Civil War role players, and to me, it was

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Speaker 3: too loud. They were intrusive on the diners, and I thought,

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Speaker 3: I want people talking to each other. So what we

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Speaker 3: did was kept the food, removed the immersive experience of

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Speaker 3: eighteen sixty three, and I say to the guests, I

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Speaker 3: challenge you to reach out to that stranger that's at

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Speaker 3: your table and find out why they're here. Why was

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Speaker 3: it important to be in Plymouth for a thank you

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Speaker 3: giving of their life? The original people at sixteen twenty

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Speaker 3: one couldn't speak to each other. There was a handful

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Speaker 3: of Wampanogue interpreters, but the bulk of people could not communicate,

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Speaker 3: but yet they feasted, they played sports. There were military demonstrations,

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Speaker 3: and you can talk to each other, so find out

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Speaker 3: each other's stories, and people do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that must make it much more rewarding experience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, people will come up at the end of the

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Speaker 3: meal and say, Richard, this is what we found out

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Speaker 3: about our table.

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Speaker 2: And we must be some interesting stories here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was. I think it was a year ago,

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Speaker 3: possibly two years there was a family where there were

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Speaker 3: three siblings that were the first outside of the Pennsylvania

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Speaker 3: coal fields. They were the first in the family to

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Speaker 3: have college degrees. So they're at the table. Their next

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Speaker 3: to a couple from India who are both new physicians

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Speaker 3: at mass General, who are there with their family. And

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Speaker 3: then the third family was military and they wanted their

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Speaker 3: six year old son to have a dinner at Plymouth

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Speaker 3: while they were stationed in New England. And that table

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Speaker 3: got up, they walked around, they shook one another's hands.

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Speaker 2: Is it your sense that people are from far away

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Speaker 2: view Thanksgiving as the ultimate American experience. I mean, some

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Speaker 2: would say going to Las Vegas, going out west, But

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Speaker 2: do you get a sense that a lot of them

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Speaker 2: feel I want to really be American. I want the

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Speaker 2: real Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 3: That again and again, I'm talking to people who are saying, Richard,

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Speaker 3: this is my first Thanksgiving as an American, and I

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Speaker 3: wanted it to be here. And so I think so

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Speaker 3: many Americans who've been here a long time, their families

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Speaker 3: have been around, have lost the metaphor and the symbolic

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Speaker 3: nature of the Mayflower voyage. For some people, particularly New Americans,

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Speaker 3: who for reasons of religion or reasons of political persecution,

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Speaker 3: they see their story exemplified in the Mayflower story, and

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Speaker 3: for them it's deeply emotional.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna get We're going to get into all these

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Speaker 2: details about the Mayflower trip over, paint that picture, get

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Speaker 2: rid of some misconceptions about the arrival. It's just such

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Speaker 2: a good story. And folks, you are so fortunate to

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Speaker 2: have this expert here because you're gonna you're gonna understand

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Speaker 2: Thanksgiving and what it means like you never otherwise would have.

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Speaker 2: And like folks who are not fortunate enough to hear

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Speaker 2: this will never until they do hear this. And also

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Speaker 2: I want to compare. I'd like to know more about

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Speaker 2: the Lincoln Thanksgiving and why that came to be so

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Speaker 2: important and more about the experts at the Plymouth Protoxic Museums,

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Speaker 2: and I'd love to have you share, Folks, this is

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Speaker 2: very informal. I'm always I'd love to hear what people

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Speaker 2: did for Thanksgiving. Different people do they do too, do

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Speaker 2: different things, and yeah, there's the core of it, but

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's different that you do. You prefer the cooking

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Speaker 2: or do you like going out? I actually prefer I

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Speaker 2: like giving. I like going out today. It's kind of special,

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Speaker 2: but I want to hear about your story, maybe something

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Speaker 2: particularly interesting that happened with your Thanksgiving. And it's also

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Speaker 2: a good time for just family members of the WBZ

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Speaker 2: community to check in without having to have something specific

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Speaker 2: today to say regarding a topic. So that will continue

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Speaker 2: after this on WBZ.

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Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's

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Speaker 1: News Radio.

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Speaker 2: Happy Thanksgiving from WBZ News Radio ten thirty on Bradley J.

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Speaker 2: And for Dan, tonight, we're with mister Thanksgiving. I called

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Speaker 2: him the King of Thanksgiving, but we can switch to

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Speaker 2: the more common sobriquet mister Thanksgiving. Richard Pickering of the

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Speaker 2: Plymouth PA Tuxit Museums, where he is very involved with

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Speaker 2: multiple versions of Thanksgiving, but uh and I want to

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Speaker 2: reach out to everyone. This is a great time to

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Speaker 2: check in here at six one, seven, two, five, four,

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Speaker 2: ten thirty. Tell me about your Thanksgiving. Share it? Do

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Speaker 2: you love it? I love it. It is somehow seems

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Speaker 2: to be the only holiday that has remained this pure,

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Speaker 2: more than Christmas, and it's remained with the basics, family

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Speaker 2: and the meal.

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Speaker 3: I got to spend a day with Joan Rivers today. Oh,

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Speaker 3: she's passed two or three, I don't know. A couple

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Speaker 3: of years ago, it was the year before her passage.

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Speaker 3: She loved the museum and so she had said to

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Speaker 3: her grandson, if you get an a in history, I'll

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Speaker 3: rent a rock Star bus and will go from Colonial

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Speaker 3: Williamsburg to Plymouth Patuxic Museums. She decided to simultaneously do

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Speaker 3: an episode of Joan and Melissa. Mother knows best, really,

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Speaker 3: and as I was with her, it was an amazing

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Speaker 3: experience where at Plymouth Rock, and she says, Richard, tell

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Speaker 3: me about Plymouth Rock. So I'm telling her about the rock.

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Speaker 3: The cameras aren't running, there's no crew with us. She

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Speaker 3: just wanted to know about the rock. So retentive that

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Speaker 3: as the crowds are gathering, because I'm with Joan Rivers,

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Speaker 3: she starts interpreting the history of the rock, and she's flawless.

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Speaker 2: She's telling people about why don't you tell us about

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Speaker 2: the rock.

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Speaker 3: The Rock, to me is one of those experiences that

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Speaker 3: people will say, oh, it's so small, and they don't

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Speaker 3: realize its impact on American history, and it's changing. Symbolism

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Speaker 3: has moved from the waterfront to this town square, to

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Speaker 3: in front of Pilgrim Hall Museum, then back to the waterfront,

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Speaker 3: and then in nineteen twenty it was put in this

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Speaker 3: Greek temple where it currently is. When they tried to

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Speaker 3: move the rock in the eighteenth century, the rock was

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Speaker 3: so enormous that it split in two, and the sons

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Speaker 3: of the patriots said, this is a symbol that we

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Speaker 3: are to break with Britain. Of course they did, and

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Speaker 3: so the rock gets moved up to town square. The

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Speaker 3: Liberty pole is there, Liberty flag is being flown over it.

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Speaker 3: So the rock, for some people, there's a battle between

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Speaker 3: different Mayflower families as to who stepped onto it first.

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Speaker 3: We really don't know.

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Speaker 2: So is the rock, I mean, legit, is there any

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Speaker 2: way to know. I'm trying to put myself. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're freezing cold. They're just happy to step on land.

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Speaker 2: And somebody say, somebody say, mark that rock. Remember that rock,

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Speaker 2: that's the first rock we stepped on. I mean maybe

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Speaker 2: they did, because it was the first piece of land

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Speaker 2: they stepped on, but maybe they didn't. How do we

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Speaker 2: know that? Isn't that the.

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Speaker 3: Actual rock we Samuel Elliott Morrison felt the story had significance,

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Speaker 3: but it wasn't a landing that no one stepped on

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Speaker 3: the rock. That the rock was so enormous, and today,

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Speaker 3: if you can imagine a shivis regal bottle. The part

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Speaker 3: of Plymouth Rock that we're seeing is the cork and

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Speaker 3: there is a massive, massive amount of granite below it,

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Speaker 3: underneath the sand. So you've got a rock that split

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Speaker 3: has been chipped away, is smaller than it was and

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Speaker 3: is still impressive. And Samuel Elliott Morrison, who was a

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Speaker 3: naval historian, said, a pilot is being told go to

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Speaker 3: that giant rock. Okay, get a ship near the brooks?

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Speaker 2: Is there the rock? Is something about that in the

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Speaker 2: captain's log or anything. Nope, we headed for the big

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Speaker 2: big rock.

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Speaker 3: Never gets mentioned.

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Speaker 2: When did the Plymouth Rock start to get talked about

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Speaker 2: at seventeen forty one, Okay, so that's one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty years right before anyone even mentioned the rock. Why

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Speaker 2: did they mention it?

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Speaker 3: Then a peer or a wharf was going to be

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Speaker 3: built over the rock, and this man in his nineties,

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Speaker 3: who was the elder of the church, was distraught, and

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Speaker 3: so he said, could you please take me down to

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Speaker 3: the waterfront one more time? And they put this man

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Speaker 3: in his nineties in a sedan chair and they carried

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Speaker 3: him three miles from his home to the waterfront at Plymouth,

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Speaker 3: and he tapped on the rock with his cane, and

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Speaker 3: all of those people who had followed him in the

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Speaker 3: sedan chair are learning that this is where the pilgrims land.

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Speaker 2: Wow, so no one really knew except this man. The

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Speaker 2: public didn't really know.

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Speaker 3: And so a later historian, writing about the story because

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Speaker 3: it had been dismissed, that everybody needs to be mindful

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Speaker 3: that elder Fonce knew all of the first generation. And

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Speaker 3: Judge Davis broke down Thomas Fonce's life dates against the

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Speaker 3: dates of William Bradford, John Alden, John Howland, and you

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Speaker 3: realize that he knew the first generation into his forties Wow,

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Speaker 3: so that as an adult when he told this story,

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Speaker 3: people were so moved by his emotion about the rock

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Speaker 3: being covered by a wharf that when the wharf went up,

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Speaker 3: they cut a hole in it and put a railing

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Speaker 3: in so people could look down on the rock. And

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Speaker 3: so it's that moment that gives the rock significance, and

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Speaker 3: then later the attempt to move the rock ties it

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Speaker 3: now to revolutionary ideas.

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Speaker 2: That is what about? What else about Plymouth is very

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Speaker 2: Thanksgiving related? Are there other attractions or other historical sites

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Speaker 2: that people can visit that are related to the landing

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Speaker 2: or to the first Thanksgiving or to events subsequent.

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Speaker 3: Well, Plymouth has the oldest continually operating private museum in

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Speaker 3: the nation in Pilgrim Hall. Unbelievable collection. It has the

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Speaker 3: most objects with a direct tie to possible Mayflower passage,

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Speaker 3: historical paintings that represent the First Thanksgiving. It's just an

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Speaker 3: amazing collection.

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Speaker 2: Any articles that I doubt that we're on the original

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Speaker 2: may Flower, like I don't know an or or a

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Speaker 2: metal piece.

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Speaker 3: There are chairs that are said to have been owned

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Speaker 3: by Governor Carver, William and then William Brewster there is

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Speaker 3: a damask napkin that's said to have been owned by

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Speaker 3: Richard Warren. So there are objects that could possibly have

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Speaker 3: come over on Mayflower in their collection.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of came over? Who came over? And I heard

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Speaker 2: this professor say that the crew did not like the

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Speaker 2: passengers at all. The passengers were divided into religious folks

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Speaker 2: and mercenaries, but that the crew didn't like them at all,

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Speaker 2: and we're happy to be rid of them. Is that?

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Speaker 2: What's the story there?

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Speaker 3: I've always wondered about the nature of Christopher Jones, who

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Speaker 3: was the master of Mayflower and a quarter owner of

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Speaker 3: the ship, because Governor Bradford in of Plymouth Plantation writes

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Speaker 3: about how the passengers are treated by the crew and

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Speaker 3: the amount of abuse they suffered in their hands, and

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Speaker 3: I wondered, did the captain or his junior officer, did

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Speaker 3: they not see any of this? Did they not intercede,

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Speaker 3: you know, on the benefit of the passengers. Who there's

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Speaker 3: one sailor who is saying, I'm gonna love feeding you

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Speaker 3: to the fishes, I'm gonna love throwing your body overboard,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to take your things, and Governor Bradford kind

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Speaker 3: of enjoys the fact that he reports that this young

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Speaker 3: man died half way across and they threw his body

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Speaker 3: in the water.

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Speaker 2: I don't think people understand how tough times were then.

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Speaker 2: There's no way for us to grasp the brutality of

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Speaker 2: the times in general, even when you're not on a

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Speaker 2: transatlantic crossing. Yes, it's a brutality. Life was really cheap then.

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Speaker 2: People didn't live that long then, and you had ten

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Speaker 2: kids and maybe three or five lived. Yeah, and so

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Speaker 2: an entirely different expectations was Plymouthy intended arrival point? Was

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Speaker 2: it Virginia they wanted to.

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Speaker 3: They thought they were going to be Virginians, and they

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Speaker 3: were going within the boundary of the Virginia Company, which

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Speaker 3: is essentially from northern Florida to Hoboken, New Jersey. Virginia

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Speaker 3: is that extensive. They wanted to be under the Virginia Company,

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Speaker 3: but far enough away from Jamestown that there would be

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Speaker 3: no danger of the Church of England being thrust on them.

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Speaker 3: And why would they want to be within Virginia because

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Speaker 3: it's an established, royally approved company and above that, above

300
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Speaker 3: New Jersey or Virginia. At the time, what was that considered?

301
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Speaker 3: That was New England and was it wild and wooly

302
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Speaker 3: and untamed or was it just politically not as good

303
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Speaker 3: for them? No one really knew New England as well

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Speaker 3: as the Chesapeake except for fishermen and traders.

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Speaker 2: I heard that that fishermen were coming from England to

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Speaker 2: fish cod like centuries before the Mayflower, at least hundred years. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: for at least one hundred years. And I also heard

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Speaker 2: that upon arrival, the people on the Mayflower had the

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Speaker 2: wrong sized fishooks. Yes, is that true?

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Speaker 3: These were these were farmers. They had hired fishermen to

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Speaker 3: stay with them and educate them for a year, but

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Speaker 3: they didn't equip themselves well. And we all have to

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Speaker 3: remember what they themselves talked about, we are the first,

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Speaker 3: we have no teachers. And so they knew they were

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Speaker 3: going to be stumbling through things because what they were

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Speaker 3: trying was so novel and Virginia wasn't a success at

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Speaker 3: that point they were heading to Virginia, did they actually

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Speaker 3: expect to survive? I think they did because they they

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Speaker 3: recognized that they were different from the bulk of people

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Speaker 3: going to Virginia in that Virginia's population is predominantly bachelors,

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Speaker 3: predominantly people who are thinking let's make some quick bucks

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Speaker 3: here and go home. Where these were political refugees, religious refugees,

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Speaker 3: others who had come for the possibility of owning land.

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Speaker 3: No one was looking to go home again. And my

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Speaker 3: mentor non a Pashmat, the great Wampinogg historian, He said, Richard,

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Speaker 3: what was a message to Wampanog people was the presence

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Speaker 3: of women and children and the elderly. What was that

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Speaker 3: message that the English never could have suspected that after

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Speaker 3: one hundred years of only seeing men and boys as

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Speaker 3: traders and as fishermen, suddenly you have entire families getting

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Speaker 3: off a ship. And the nonverbal message for Indigenous.

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Speaker 2: People is we're here to stay.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we don't take our women and our children and

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Speaker 3: our elderly into any potentially violent situation. So the English

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00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 3: would have no idea that the message that they're sending

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Speaker 3: to Indigenous eyes is one if we come and no harm.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's good. That would also send a message that

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Speaker 2: we're not here just to plunder, We're here to populate.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and they're not particularly successful at that.

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Speaker 2: That rough year. Yeah, we'll get into that right after this.

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Speaker 1: I w BZ you're on night side with Dan Ray

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Speaker 1: on w b Z, Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: Bradley J And for Dan tonight and we're with Richard Pickering,

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Speaker 2: who is mister Thanksgiving. He's the deputy director of the

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Speaker 2: Plymouth Patuxt Museums, which is headquarters. It truly is ground

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Speaker 2: zero for Thanksgiving. Also the chief historian, as you probably

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Speaker 2: could have guessed by his deep knowledge of everything to

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Speaker 2: do with the time. Let's see, where were we. We

349
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Speaker 2: were on the on the Mayflower, wondering certain things and

350
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,520
Speaker 2: expected to go to Virginia as it was then, which

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00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: was like a huge place. It's very good that you

352
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 2: made me understand that. I didn't know that. I kind

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00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 2: of always thought of it and it's current iteration. But

354
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Speaker 2: no Virginia. It was New England, and then Virginia started

355
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Speaker 2: right away. Yes, there was nothing in between, no mid Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And in sixteen twenty, New England's name was new that

357
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: Captain Smith had come through and mapped New England and

358
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Speaker 3: he gave it its regional name.

359
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what was it before it was New England?

360
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 2: Just those woods?

361
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was just essentially those woods over there, and

362
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,639
Speaker 3: he gives it a name with a real sense of

363
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,359
Speaker 3: real estate savvy of would you rather go to a

364
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 3: place called Virginia or a place called New England?

365
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Speaker 2: Right, it's got your home attached right.

366
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 3: To the name, and he takes the map back to England.

367
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 3: It has no names on it other than the region

368
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 3: is now New England, and one of James's sons names

369
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 3: all of the places in New England. So there is

370
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Speaker 3: this tradition that Plymouth was named Plymouth because the Mayflower's

371
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 3: successful departure from England was Plymouth, England, and no, it

372
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 3: was already named Plymouth. So even though for thousands of

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Speaker 3: years it had been Peduxit to Wampanog people, and it

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Speaker 3: still is ptux It this day. Even though it's more

375
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Speaker 3: commonly known as Plymouth, it's still also patux It. What

376
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 3: does potoxic translate to a place of little waterfalls? Because

377
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 3: the water was so fine, and it's one of the

378
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Speaker 3: reasons that they chose the site on Lyden Street or

379
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 3: what would be called Lydon Street, because as it's surrounded

380
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 3: by springs, the water was so good.

381
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 2: And Leiden streets so named because they left from or

382
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: they were from Leiden.

383
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 3: Yep, it was, it was just the street until the

384
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 3: early nineteenth century. There was only one street, and then

385
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 3: in the nineteenth century it was given the name of

386
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Speaker 3: Leiden Street. But in the seventeenth century it was just

387
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 3: the street, and for a.

388
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Speaker 2: While it wasn't even a street. It was just kind

389
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 2: of a space between two roses, probably still grass or

390
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: mud more likely it could be. So Mayflower shows up.

391
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Speaker 2: It took a lot longer. It was a lot worse

392
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Speaker 2: than they thought, and they figured they were in Virginia

393
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: near New Jersey, but no, that turns out, well, we

394
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 2: were way north of that, and they tried to go.

395
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: They tried to head down, but the weather was just

396
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: too much and they said, you know, we can't do this.

397
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Speaker 2: This is where we're at, pretty good place to stop

398
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 2: protected harbor. We're gonna stay here. This is it it

399
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: or leave it. And they didn't jump right onto the

400
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 2: land right away, right they hung out in the ship

401
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: because they did have to do the mayflow compact. But

402
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: what else were they doing during that month?

403
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 3: Well we can I think we can complicate the story

404
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 3: further because they knew that they were at Cape Cod

405
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 3: and historians and mariners think they left England so very

406
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,919
Speaker 3: late that Jones decided to come the more northern route

407
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: instead of the southern route because it was faster, though

408
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 3: it was more treacherous. And so they know they're at

409
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 3: Cape Cod. They're not very far away from where they

410
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: need to be, only ninety three nautical miles. We think

411
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 3: of it in land terms and land passages, but in

412
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,120
Speaker 3: nautical terms, it's only ninety three miles. They are very close.

413
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: And then Jones gets caught in the shoals off the

414
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 3: town of checks Adam, and may Flower almost breaks apart,

415
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 3: and so he says, I can't get you south. You

416
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 3: have to stay here. There's an additional complication to that story.

417
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 3: Bradford never suspects Jones of anything. Jones he was the

418
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 3: master the ship and the owner of the ship. In

419
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 3: sixteen sixty nine, William Bradford's nephew, Nathaniel Morton prints the

420
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 3: first full length history of Plymouth Colony, and in fact

421
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 3: it's the first full length history of any English speaking

422
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: colony on the East Coast. In it, he takes large

423
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 3: passages from his uncle's manuscript, but at one point he

424
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 3: puts in a margin, sure, and certain information has just

425
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 3: come to me that Christopher Joe was working for the Dutch.

426
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 3: What does that mean that means he was being paid

427
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 3: by Dutch merchants never to get them anywhere near in

428
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: the vicinity of Manhattan or northern New Jersey. And so

429
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 3: it could be that he accidentally is in the shoals,

430
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 3: because no ship owner, no mariner, would want to be

431
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 3: in that situation. But the shoals now cover duplicity.

432
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 2: And then do you think he went into the shows

433
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: as an excuse not to go south?

434
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 3: No, I don't think he went to the purposely, but

435
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 3: they cover his original intention.

436
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: So that was the silver lining for him.

437
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 3: And for a while people never accepted what Morton said

438
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 3: in suspicion of the captain. But then a historian in

439
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: the nineteen forties said, it has to be remembered that

440
00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 3: the first governor, the first mayor of Manhattan after it

441
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: seized from the Dutch, was a member of the Pilgrim's

442
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 3: Church in Leiden and fluent in Dutch. And so now

443
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 3: you have this man attached to Plymouth, who has access

444
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: to all the Dutch business records in New York.

445
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 2: Why would the Dutch not want the Mayflower to head

446
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 2: down to Amsterdam.

447
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 3: They had already been looking at that site themselves. Interesting

448
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 3: they were seen. I just didn't want the competition. No,

449
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: so our mayflower folks are stuck up here.

450
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: In the frozen north. And what else were they doing

451
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: for that month? Why did it take a month before

452
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: they got off the ship and stepped on the rock?

453
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 3: Provincetown what is now called Provincetown proved very unsatisfying to

454
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: their needs. They couldn't find a source of water that

455
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: wasn't brackish, they couldn't find rich soil and so and

456
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: then having marauded and stolen native corn, having dug up

457
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: and stolen from native graves, they now are seen as

458
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: these dangerous intruders on the land.

459
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: And so at it's more risk it does.

460
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: And so what you see in the attack on December seventh,

461
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: sixteen twenty at what is now First Encounter Beach in

462
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: East Dam, the Wampanog people are driving them up and away,

463
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 3: and so it takes them three voyages of discovery as

464
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: they call them, to find a peduxit to fine plymouth.

465
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:46,239
Speaker 2: The well, excuse me, can you talk a little bit

466
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: about the Mayflower compact and why they didn't why did

467
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: they wait till the last minute to do that? Was

468
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: that an afterthought?

469
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: This is where I'm going to be controversial, and there

470
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 3: there are some other historians who are in agreement with me,

471
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 3: and we've all come to this thinking without talking to

472
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: one another about it. But we suspect that the Mayflower

473
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 3: Compact was used in crisis, not drafted in crisis, and

474
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 3: that when you look at how mindful John Robinson, their minister,

475
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 3: had been in Holland, and the deep advice he gives

476
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: them about community construction, that we, some of us think

477
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 3: the Mayflower Compact would have been signed to anywhere they landed.

478
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: It gets used to bind themselves together in crisis of

479
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 3: some people saying, we're not in Virginia, We're we don't

480
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: have to stay with any of you. We can do

481
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 3: whatever we want. We're on our own now. But they

482
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,719
Speaker 3: have to hold people together before anyone can leave that ship.

483
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 3: The Mayflower Compact essentially creates a civil body politic where

484
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: every household is bound to every other household.

485
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 2: Because without that they would have not right. And do

486
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 2: you think they had to pressure that some people to

487
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: sign it? I do, I do? Who would not wanted

488
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: to have signed it?

489
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 3: The mercenaries, well, they aren't really mercenaries because the merchants

490
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 3: the quote unquote strangers. Okay, you know there's this classic

491
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: divide of there were the saints that were the members

492
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 3: of the church, and then there were the strangers who

493
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 3: weren't members of the church and they were not spiritual.

494
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 3: The reason the church left Holland was their numbers were

495
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 3: shrinking because of the poverty and the deprivation of living

496
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 3: in Holland. And so they said, if we move the

497
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 3: church to where there's the potential for profit, others will

498
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 3: worship with us. So the strangers, the people unknown to

499
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 3: them function may have been joining this party saying, not

500
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 3: going to worship in poverty, but if there's the potential

501
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: for safety and profit, I'll join the church, I'll go

502
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: with them. So there could be some that are just

503
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 3: there for the chance for land and profit and others

504
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: for whom it's worship and profit.

505
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to take a quick break and then go

506
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: to David in San Francisco. But an observation, what would

507
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 2: you say the odds of making a safe surviving in

508
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: a transatlantic crossing We're back then eighty percent. You probably

509
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: would maybe twenty fifty to fifty something like that. I

510
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: just want to point out that if airlines were like that, no,

511
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: no one would go right. It's a wildly dangerous thing

512
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: to do, and so you would have to be desperate

513
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: to do it, either desperate for profit or desperate for

514
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: some kind of freedom, desperate to get away from the law,

515
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: or something else. So we'll break and continue with Richard

516
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: Pickering and we will talk to David in San Francisco. Hopefully, David,

517
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: you'll have something to add to this topic after this

518
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 2: on WBZ.

519
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.

520
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: Every Thanksgiving, I had a super heavy Thanksgiving, hassle free.

521
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: I only had to walk thirty five steps from home

522
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 2: to Thanksgiving and back thirty five steps. We're with mister Thanksgiving,

523
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: Richard Pickering, and we're talking. We are going really granually

524
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: on the history of events leading up to Thanksgiving. But

525
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: we have David in San Francisco. It's always nice to

526
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: hear from David. You have some Thanksgiving words for us.

527
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 4: Hi, David, how old Rally. It is so good to

528
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 4: hear from you. And I just got home and I'm

529
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 4: not familiar with the topic you're talking about. However, this

530
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 4: is the second time I've talked to you. When you

531
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 4: were sitting in on on Thanksgiving?

532
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 2: How is your thanks How is your Thanksgiving?

533
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 4: Very good? I gotta I got some people bring some

534
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 4: food to me and from little brothers, friends of the elderly.

535
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: And then the other day I had one for my

536
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 4: meals on wheels. Uh, they're my regular food supply. So

537
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 4: I had a fourth year an hour in a row

538
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 4: that had meals from both those people, and they were

539
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 4: very good.

540
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: Did you get visits from anybody? Did you get a

541
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: visit from anybody? Nice phone call? Any visits?

542
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 4: Any what?

543
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: It's all right you you had a question for me?

544
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 2: Go ahead?

545
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 4: Oh no, this is the second time I'm talking to you, uh,

546
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 4: since you're sitting in uh for somebody on Thanksgiving. And

547
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 4: the first time. The first time was a number of

548
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 4: years ago. You were sitting in for a Morgan White

549
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 4: Junior and you ran a trivia game and I won.

550
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 4: I won a T shirt. And it's when your management

551
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 4: of your radio station.

552
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: Said, gave away any prizes?

553
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 4: No, no, but you had to come to the radio

554
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 4: station to get the T shirt. And I'm thirty three

555
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 4: hundred miles away. And my sister Vicky works at a

556
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 4: hospital in Baltimore, and she had worked with a nurse

557
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 4: who had a sister that lived in Boston, and her

558
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 4: sister came to the station, got me the T shirt,

559
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 4: nailed it to my sister, and then my sister mailed

560
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 4: me the T shirt. So a lot of miles on

561
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 4: it and a lot of change of hands.

562
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: I hope you still have that shirt. Pardon, I hope

563
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 2: you still have that shirt.

564
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it's a w b z U The's Radios

565
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 4: T shirt. And also I want to tell you my

566
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 4: still my favorite number one song of all time is

567
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 4: a Walk into the Rain by.

568
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. I want to wish you a happy Thanksgiving, David,

569
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 2: and we need to I have to say goodbye. I'm

570
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: very sorry, thank you so much for calling. Appreciate it.

571
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 2: But we do need to stick with the Thanksgiving and

572
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 2: Richard Picket Ring in the history of Thanksgiving from mister

573
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: Thanksgiving himself. So we will get to the first Thanksgiving.

574
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 2: But each time you come in, I learned another layer

575
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: of things about the events eating up to it, and

576
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 2: the event itself, and about Plymouth, the town. I learned

577
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: something I didn't know about you, that you're mister Sombrero

578
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: as well as being mister Thanksgiving. And I saw a

579
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,439
Speaker 2: picture of this massive sombrero, bigger than anything by far.

580
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: It's like cartoonishly large, giant sombrero. And people in your

581
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,279
Speaker 2: town know you as mister Sombrero. Ye, what's the deal

582
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 2: with that?

583
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 3: I've had skin cancer right. My brother bought that sombrero

584
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 3: for me as a joke when I was seven years old,

585
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 3: and it has a three and a half foot wide brand.

586
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 2: It's bigger than you.

587
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 3: So I can sit on the front lawn and be

588
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 3: in the sun and not endanger my skin. But now

589
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 3: people will say where's the hat? If I'm on the

590
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 3: front lawn and I'm not in it, or if I

591
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 3: don't appear. I was recently on the town's Facebook page, like,

592
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 3: has anyone seen mister Sombrero lately? The sobrero makes me laugh.

593
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 3: And so if I can bring people a smile by

594
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 3: sitting on my front lawn in a stupid hat.

595
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: Do they know what you do?

596
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 3: Or you're just mister sombrero. Some people know who I am.

597
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 3: Other people, I'm just the guy in the hat. People

598
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 3: drive by and wave, People pull up at the house

599
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 3: and say, we didn't see you on our last vacationion.

600
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: We were wor sad. Yeah, we were worried like this year.

601
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,839
Speaker 3: Someone said, thank god, you're not dead.

602
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 2: Well, you need to have a big sign that you

603
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: put out when you're not there, said, you know, temporarily gone,

604
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 2: not dead, something like that. Okay, a short time before

605
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 2: the top of the hour. Finally, oh, no, I wanted

606
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 2: to ask you, did the did the pilgrims they feel

607
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 2: bad about taking the Indians corn? And can you explain

608
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,360
Speaker 2: why there were this corn available? And no, no, I

609
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 2: shouldn't say Indians. No, Native Americans. They're very few compared

610
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: to what had been there, maybe ten years before. Maybe

611
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: the persons who would bury the coin, they weren't gone.

612
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 2: It was a ghost town.

613
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 3: Why there had been epidemic death from sixteen sixteen to

614
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 3: sixteen eighteen that an infection or multiple infections. There have

615
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 3: been so many theories about what it was, and we

616
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: can't say with any honesty as to whether it was

617
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 3: bubonic plague or yellow fever.

618
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: We don't know. Are there any DNA? Is there any

619
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 2: way to get DNA? I don't know? Are there any

620
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 2: Do you have the remains of any of the Native

621
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: Americans at the time.

622
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 3: Not that I know, and that would be sacrilege too. Okay, Yeah,

623
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 3: not worth knowing. You don't either know everything. But the

624
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 3: families on Cape Cod that were stolen from they were

625
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 3: still there. So they weren't stealing from the barns of

626
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 3: the dead. They were stealing from families that ran from them.

627
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 3: So in the summer of sixteen twenty one, when one

628
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,240
Speaker 3: of the children in Plymouth goes missing and is twenty

629
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 3: miles from the town, he's transferred not closer to Plymouth,

630
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 3: he sent back to the Cape where the corn was stolen.

631
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 3: So the English had to confront the very families they

632
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 3: had stolen from.

633
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and so as you mentioned, this made it

634
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: a much more dangerous place for the new arrivals because

635
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: they were now seen as thieves. Yes, and was there

636
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: an early Well, you know what, we're almost out of

637
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 2: time here. We'll take this break, but we'll continue to

638
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 2: pick up where were that fought right after this break

639
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 2: with Richard Pickering, who is the deputy director and senior

640
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 2: are in at Plymouth Patuxet Museums. If you have not

641
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: been down there, you gotta go. It's super cool. Just

642
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,919
Speaker 2: ask Jalen Rivers right the number six one, seven, two, five, four,

643
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: ten thirty and our next call will be Hannah and

644
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: Steve down in Chatham w b Z NewsRadio ten thirty