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Speaker 1: Do you want to be an American idiot?

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Speaker 2: It's got flown on seven hundred ww you get the

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Speaker 2: important stuff, by the way, then we have the fun

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Speaker 2: stuff on this Friday morning when we lose our sleep.

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Speaker 2: My god, can someone who illegally possessed a weapon invoke

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Speaker 2: self defense?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? But here's a twist.

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Speaker 2: Two felons shooting at one another are now each claiming

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Speaker 2: self defense in the Riverfront Live shooting last weekend, So

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Speaker 2: that is three in a row if you include the

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Speaker 2: Fountain Square shooter. Do we have a trend here where

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Speaker 2: thugs and criminals and gangbangers can shoot each other with

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Speaker 2: impunity in our streets right around us, put us in danger.

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Speaker 2: In the case of the nine people injured at Riverfront Live,

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Speaker 2: I would say that's a hell yes, and then say, oh,

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Speaker 2: I was just defending myself. If you're a street criminal

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Speaker 2: and you in the act of we had another felony

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Speaker 2: shoot at someone because of some stupid street beef, how

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Speaker 2: the hell can you claim self defense? And this is

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Speaker 2: a disturbing new trend is a question the legal pitfalls

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Speaker 2: and such. Jason Philbaum will break us down force of course,

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Speaker 2: extraordinary defense attorney, former secutor and Butler County.

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Speaker 1: Jason, welcome back. How are you there? We go, Jason,

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Speaker 1: You're there?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 1: I got I gotcha?

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Speaker 3: Good?

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Speaker 2: Before we begin on this one, is there anyway we

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Speaker 2: who can we sue, file and litigate and take to

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Speaker 2: court regarding this loss of one hour on Sunday? Is

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Speaker 2: there anything could be done legally about the time change?

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Speaker 3: I thought Elon Musk was supposed to take care of that.

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Speaker 2: I think I think he was.

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Speaker 3: Probably we wouldn't. Yeah, supposedly it's supposed to save money.

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Speaker 3: And then I guess heart attacks go up with the

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Speaker 3: day after. I mean, like that's just stops as time change.

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Speaker 3: But I wish I knew. I wish I knew.

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Speaker 2: All right, I'm a much serious, serious note here. So

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Speaker 2: we had the March first mass shooting Riverfront Live nine wounded,

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Speaker 2: eight hundred plus people.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 2: You had Freniy Cobb and Derek Long. One has just

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Speaker 2: gotten out of prison and picks up a gun and

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Speaker 2: sees this guy's got a gun his waistband. I don't

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Speaker 2: know how he gets the security. That's another civil suit.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that's waiting to happen, as well as criminal suit.

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Speaker 2: But nonetheless, they start a shootout. Cobb had a long

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Speaker 2: standing grudge against mister Long. They're both convicted felons, both

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Speaker 2: prohibited from possessing firearms. It's weapons under disability. They're facing

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Speaker 2: felonious assault charges in state court and federal charges for

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Speaker 2: legally possessing a fireman's felons. That'll come later on, But

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Speaker 2: the key legal tension here is you've got two thugs

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Speaker 2: that are shooting it out in a place of little people,

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Speaker 2: with no regard to the safety of complete innocent bystanders.

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Speaker 2: And now they're both claiming self defense. This feels like

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Speaker 2: a like almost like a legal loophole to me, Jason,

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Speaker 2: because we just saw this happen with the Fountain Square shooting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think what you're seeing in this case.

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Speaker 3: And first of all, you got shooter one because and

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Speaker 3: shooter two. So shooter one walks into this club seize

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Speaker 3: his mortal enemy. That alone does not give rise to

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Speaker 3: self defense. So you have to be in great bodily

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Speaker 3: thereat fear of great bodily harm or death, and so

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Speaker 3: just seeing your enemy across the bar is not enough

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Speaker 3: to get to that level. So he pulls out his

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Speaker 3: gun and starts by firing and ends up hitting Shooter two.

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Speaker 3: So Shooter two gets hipped and then he pulls his

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Speaker 3: gun out and just starts firing indiscriminately. And I think

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Speaker 3: that's that's where you kind of have to break it down.

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Speaker 3: If Shooter two was shot, I think he does have

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Speaker 3: the right to self defense at that moment. So you

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Speaker 3: are being shot, you're in fear of great bodily harm

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Speaker 3: or death, so you pull out your firearm and you

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Speaker 3: fire back. That action right in that moment is likely justified.

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Speaker 3: The problem he has is he shouldn't have a gun,

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Speaker 3: so he felt guilty of weapons while under disability when

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Speaker 3: he left the home, when he went into the bar,

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Speaker 3: and so on. At the moment, you know, I think

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Speaker 3: there's an legal argument that you can probably grab a

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Speaker 3: gun and defend yourself. But it'd be like if I'm

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Speaker 3: a fellon and you're my buddy carrying and someone shooting

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Speaker 3: at us, and I grab your gun and fire back,

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Speaker 3: I probably can get out of a weapons wunder disability charge,

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Speaker 3: But the fact I carried it and left home with it,

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Speaker 3: I think he's you know, he might get himself a

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Speaker 3: not guilty on the blowing the assault a shooter rue,

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Speaker 3: but I don't see him getting it. Not guilty on

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Speaker 3: the weapons wonder, it's still got it.

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Speaker 2: So Jerry believes long generally fear for his life. They

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Speaker 2: can acquit him on followence assault, even while federal prosecutors

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Speaker 2: can get him on weapons under disability.

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Speaker 1: It's it's separate charge, yes.

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Speaker 3: And the other thing you've got to think about too,

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Speaker 3: which is you have it when you're exercising your right

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Speaker 3: to self defense, you still have a duty to be

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Speaker 3: reasonable and that's in the statute as well. So the

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Speaker 3: fact that he fired indiscriminately into a crowd could rise

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Speaker 3: to the level of other charges. You know, if someone

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Speaker 3: were to die, you could be charged with involuntary manslaughter

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Speaker 3: or reckless homicide. If someone you know is just seriously injured,

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Speaker 3: then you're looking at potentially reckless assault, you know. So

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Speaker 3: you know, think about if you and I are fighting

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Speaker 3: and you pull out your gun and then I pull

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Speaker 3: out mine. I'm acting in self defense, I fire and

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Speaker 3: it either goes through you or just misses you and

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Speaker 3: hit some kid behind you. There's some liability there, and

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, it's sort of like the example

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Speaker 3: of a Breonna Taylor in Louisville where that officer on

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Speaker 3: the outside just started firing it the right, you know,

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Speaker 3: the applying that. Yeah, that that action was seemed to

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Speaker 3: be criminal, and he got charged. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: if you have a situation where you fire one shot

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Speaker 3: and it goes through the bad guy and hit someone

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Speaker 3: behind there, I'm guessing the jury might give you a

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Speaker 3: path with you being reasonable. But if you just you know,

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Speaker 3: have a you know, clip of fifteen bullets and you're

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Speaker 3: just firing, you know, in the direction of the guy

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Speaker 3: that shot you, and then you know, eight people get hit,

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure a jury would find your actions to

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Speaker 3: be reasonable there. So that's another thing you have to

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Speaker 3: look at in this case.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Staniyar grind as a wrinkler, correct, because it does apply.

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Speaker 2: It's a constitutional aspect of this thing. But the fact

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Speaker 2: that both men were committing felony crimes by carrying guns

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Speaker 2: does that change that analysis?

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Speaker 1: Does that change that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think it does. You have to look at

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Speaker 3: the fact that they walk out of their house already

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Speaker 3: committing a felony and so that's another thing to look

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Speaker 3: at too, which is, you know, there's an argument of

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Speaker 3: is it a felony murder charge? Because they're committing a

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Speaker 3: felony by carrying a firearm, and then you know people

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Speaker 3: are are dead because of it. There's maybe approximate cause

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Speaker 3: there that a jury will have to look through as

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Speaker 3: whether or not it's an involuntary manslaughter or a felony murder.

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Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, they're they're carrying

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Speaker 3: a firearm when no, they can't. Yeah, so that already

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Speaker 3: shows that there's some some criminal conduct there. And so

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Speaker 3: if you know, with a Fountain Square shooter, I think

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Speaker 3: it seemed pretty clear the guy just pulled out a gun,

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Speaker 3: fired and then video evidence shows him firing back and

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Speaker 3: being reasonable in that regard. And so that situation here

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Speaker 3: where these guys just look across the room and then

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Speaker 3: you know it's it's you know, like the wild West.

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Speaker 3: They just pull their guns and start shooting at each other.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure jury's going to find their actions to

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Speaker 3: be reasonable. And you know, the standard ground just means

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Speaker 3: you don't have to be you don't have to retreat

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Speaker 3: before you use your your response beforce, but it's still

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Speaker 3: have to be reasonable. You can't just start blindly shooting

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Speaker 3: into a like like a house like that. Breonna Taylor

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Speaker 3: officer did.

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Speaker 2: Defense attorney Jason Philibamon with Sloane here on seven hundred

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Speaker 2: WYLW involving going back to the Riverfront live shootings volviously

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Speaker 2: two subjects that shot at each other and nine people

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Speaker 2: and some people got hit, and they were both of

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Speaker 2: them prohibited under federal law because of past convictions from owning, possessing, touching,

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Speaker 2: and thinking about or even making a finger gun. And

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Speaker 2: yet we saw what happened there, and now they're both

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Speaker 2: claiming self defense, which feels like some sort of standoff

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Speaker 2: here in a different way in the courtroom, maybe they're

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Speaker 2: both claiming self different Can two people in the same

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Speaker 2: gunfight both legally claimed self defense or there's a law

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Speaker 2: force conclusion one of them has to be the aggressor.

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Speaker 3: Well, they both can claim it, and then theoretically they

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Speaker 3: both could have an independent jury find that they acted

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Speaker 3: in self defense. But under this that they're both victims.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of weird, yees, Yeah, that's theoretical. So in

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Speaker 3: a law school exam, you know, that's that's an answer

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Speaker 3: for anyone listening. But technically speaking, you know, you cannot

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Speaker 3: claim self defense if you are the cause, if you

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Speaker 3: are the aggressor, and so a jury is going to

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Speaker 3: look at if they were to look at this case,

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Speaker 3: a jury's going to decide whom they think the aggressor is.

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Speaker 3: And you know, so far, the evidence seems to show

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Speaker 3: that shooter one pulled and just started shooting first, and

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Speaker 3: then shooter two got shot and then pulled. Under those facts,

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Speaker 3: I think a jury will determine that shooter one is

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Speaker 3: the aggressor. Now, so, so.

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Speaker 2: Cob Cob fired first, Okay, Cob puls Derek Lung pulls

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Speaker 2: a gun out, shoots him or shoots at him. I

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Speaker 2: guess anyway, does that being an initial aggressor, does that

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Speaker 2: completely eliminate any self defense claim that the cod can

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Speaker 2: raise her?

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Speaker 3: Theoretically, yes, it's one of those things too where you

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Speaker 3: and I. Let's say I walk up to you and

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Speaker 3: I push you, and I call you a name, and

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Speaker 3: then I start to walk away, and then you pull

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Speaker 3: out a knife and come at me. You know, a

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Speaker 3: jury could find that then you escalated it from a

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Speaker 3: simple push and a name calling to a now deadly assault,

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Speaker 3: and then I'm allowed to use deadly force. But again,

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Speaker 3: that's something that a jury is going to have to

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Speaker 3: decide and I think most jurors are going to say, look,

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Speaker 3: if you walked up to some guy, push him and

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Speaker 3: call him the name and then a fight ensues, I

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Speaker 3: don't think you can claim self defense because you were

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Speaker 3: the initial aggressor. Now, what a defense attorney is going

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Speaker 3: to try to say is, look, he pushed them and

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Speaker 3: called him a name and then walked away. That's the

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Speaker 3: end of that transaction. Transaction was Scott pulling an ice.

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Speaker 3: Now you have a whole new situation. Scott's the aggressor

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Speaker 3: and Jason is a defender. And so you know, that's

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Speaker 3: what a defense attorney's going to do. He's going to

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Speaker 3: try to take that one action, split it in the two,

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Speaker 3: and then the prosecutor is going to say, no, this

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Speaker 3: is all one action. You walk in, you push Scot,

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Speaker 3: you call him a name, and then a fight happens.

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Speaker 3: You can't claim self defense. And so I think the

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Speaker 3: other thing you're starting to see is people just claim

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Speaker 3: self defense. They've been doing that since the beginning of time,

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Speaker 3: and jurors look at it very closely and they start

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Speaker 3: splicing that up. Is who was the aggressor who started it?

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Speaker 3: Was the person's actions reasonable and at the end of

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Speaker 3: the day, you know, right now, self defense it theems

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Speaker 3: that will be applied when when it's genuine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, this also goes back to the Cincinnati brawl back

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Speaker 2: in July that Alex Cherinski Ford failed with the white

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Speaker 2: guy was charged in this case. You know, the the

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Speaker 2: video evidence indicates that Montus Merriweather, Jermaine Matthews, and Donna

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Speaker 2: Vernon are the ones who started this one. Particularly Mayweather

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Speaker 2: was taunting, pushing, shoving the white guy in this case.

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Speaker 2: So if you turn around and throw a punch at someone,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about gun laws here and stand

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Speaker 2: your ground.

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Speaker 1: But the same thing applies.

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Speaker 2: If you feel you're under threat great bodily harm, you

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Speaker 2: can defend yourself. That's gonna you can't have it.

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Speaker 1: Both ways, right.

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Speaker 2: We can't look at this case and go, well, they're

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Speaker 2: good to but turn around and throw the book at

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Speaker 2: Aleis Dirinsky.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's not gonna work that way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And a lot of it comes down to the fact,

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Speaker 3: you know, so if i'm you know, if you've been

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Speaker 3: threatening me, you've been coming to my house, you've been

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Speaker 3: throwing rocks in my window, you've been you know, doing

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Speaker 3: all these pattern of conduct. And then I happen to

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Speaker 3: be walking down the street and I see you coming

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Speaker 3: at me menacingly, then one could argue I act and

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Speaker 3: self defense when I pulled my fire on first. But aposcy,

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Speaker 3: you're going to say, wait a second, all Scott did

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Speaker 3: was just, you know, walk towards you. That's not a

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Speaker 3: life threatening action, and so you didn't have a right

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Speaker 3: to use deadly force. And that's another thing a jury's

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Speaker 3: going to look at. If I push you, then you

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Speaker 3: theoretically can push me back to get me away, and

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Speaker 3: that would be that would be self defense because you

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Speaker 3: are using the appropriate force, non deadly force. But you

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Speaker 3: can't use deadly force when someone's using non deadly force,

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Speaker 3: and that's another thing to look at. So again, if

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Speaker 3: I come up and push you and then you pull

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Speaker 3: out a knife and stab me, one could argue that

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Speaker 3: you have used deadly force to only repel non deadly action.

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Speaker 3: And so those are things that the jury has to decide,

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Speaker 3: and that's what the attorneys and prosecutors are going to

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Speaker 3: argue about when when we get to a jury.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, Jason Phillibaum Cobb had a long standing grudge against

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Speaker 2: long How does premeditation factor to this.

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Speaker 3: It does. I mean, that's another situation where if I

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Speaker 3: go to a place where I know you're going to be,

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Speaker 3: I can't sit there and claim self defense when you

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden come at me pretty pretty rough.

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Speaker 3: I mean, obviously I can claim that, but a jury

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Speaker 3: is going to look at that very skeptically, which is,

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Speaker 3: if if I know you're at a place and I

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Speaker 3: fear for my life, then going to that place actually

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Speaker 3: is counterintuitive. I don't really fear for my life if

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Speaker 3: I'm going to a place where I know you're at.

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Speaker 3: And so the fact that there's premeditation of trying to

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Speaker 3: find somebody, I think takes away from the argument that

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Speaker 3: you were in fear for your life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, gotcha.

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Speaker 2: So this is going to be referred als to the

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Speaker 2: federal court for the weapon under disability charge. But why

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Speaker 2: wouldn't the self defense argument work there?

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Speaker 3: Because in that particular case, all they have to prove

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Speaker 3: is you had a weapon while under some federal or

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Speaker 3: criminal or other disability. And so, first of all, a

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Speaker 3: lot of people get confused of disability, meaning like you know,

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Speaker 3: you can't walk, or you're in a wheelchair or something

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Speaker 3: like that. Disability for criminal is if you have a felony,

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Speaker 3: a prior felony or crime of violence, or maybe even

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Speaker 3: a protection or you are prohibited from having a firearm.

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Speaker 3: So that's called a legal disability. So if you are

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Speaker 3: possessing a firearm while under that legal disability, that's all

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Speaker 3: the prosecutor has to show. And so they may try

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Speaker 3: to argue self defense at the moment of the shooting,

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Speaker 3: But you still had the gun when you left the house,

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Speaker 3: you still had the gun when you went into this bar.

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Speaker 3: He's probably drinking and having it at the bar, and

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Speaker 3: that's another issue that consider. So that's all they have

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Speaker 3: to prove, and so self defense will not apply to

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Speaker 3: carrying a weapon while under disability.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha, Jason Philibaum. The Second Amendment I advocates argue that

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Speaker 2: weapons under disability unfairly stripped people of their inalienable, god

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Speaker 2: given inalienable rights. The second then, in particularly to self

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Speaker 2: preservation and self defense, does this case, or a case

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Speaker 2: like this where a prohibited person appears they have generally

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Speaker 2: needed a gun to survive, does that make the argument stronger?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's an interesting argument that they've been making for years.

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Speaker 3: But you know, when you're talking about, like the red

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Speaker 3: flag laws. I think that's where you get into a

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Speaker 3: whole due process issue and at what point, you know,

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Speaker 3: do you have the right Second Amendment right? But when

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Speaker 3: you have been found guilty of a criminal offense and

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Speaker 3: you're looking at a situation where a person's gone through

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Speaker 3: the jujitsial system, has gone through due process, and they

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Speaker 3: have found that you're guilty of that offense, either by

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Speaker 3: plea or by jury, then at that particular case, that's

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Speaker 3: where the course of hell that your Second Amendment right

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Speaker 3: is taken away. Just like you have a right to vote,

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Speaker 3: You have a right to you know, constitutional right to vote,

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Speaker 3: but if you have a felony, the Supreme Court and

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Speaker 3: other courts of hell that you can take that away

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Speaker 3: because of your felony status. And again there's you know, freedom,

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Speaker 3: We have the right to freedom, but if you commit

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Speaker 3: a crime and you go to prison, your freedom's taken away.

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Speaker 3: So I think that's the analysis the courts that I use,

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Speaker 3: where if you've gone through due process and you have

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Speaker 3: that criminal history, then they can take that right away.

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Speaker 2: Are we going to see this now as a legal template?

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Speaker 2: Jason Philibaum and that this weapons under disability defendant argument

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Speaker 2: that you know, you put yourself in a situation where

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Speaker 2: you're going to go see your mortal leend me or

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Speaker 2: carrying a weapon under disability, and you engage with another

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Speaker 2: person who probably has a weapon under disability. Is that

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Speaker 2: going to be the now legal template here, that it's

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Speaker 2: just going to be a self defect of self defense

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Speaker 2: claim and kind of law clean that up?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think they'll make that argument every time, but

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Speaker 3: I don't think a jury and a prosecutor is going

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Speaker 3: to buy it again. They have to look at the fact.

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Speaker 3: I think if I had a firearm in my house

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Speaker 3: and some guys breaking into my house and then at

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Speaker 3: the end of the day I had a weapons under disability,

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Speaker 3: that's where the self defense claim and can actually give

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Speaker 3: maybe some peace to their defense. But when you leave

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Speaker 3: the house, when you go to bar hoppin and you

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Speaker 3: go whatever, carrying a firearm, when you know that you're

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Speaker 3: not able to then theoretically if that defense where to fly,

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Speaker 3: then weapons under disability would go out the window anyway.

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Speaker 3: So I don't think that's going to I don't think

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Speaker 3: it's ever going to be extended to where you can

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Speaker 3: just carry it all times because some guy doesn't like you.

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Speaker 3: I think at the end of the day, you have

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Speaker 3: to look at the specific situation at the moment, and

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Speaker 3: you might be able to get out of the Floni's

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Speaker 3: assault or murder charge, but you're not going to really

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Speaker 3: be able to beat that weapons water disability.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the hard case.

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Speaker 2: It's all start down in court, not just also in

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Speaker 2: Hamlin County, but obviously federally as well for these individuals.

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Speaker 2: And at the same time, I feel badly for the

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Speaker 2: owner of Riverfront Live. We tried to do everything he

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Speaker 2: could to make sure it was a safe environment and

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Speaker 2: yet at least two people who shouldn't have guns brought

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Speaker 2: guns into the venue. There's going to be a huge

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Speaker 2: civil lawsuit involving this as well, with millions and millions

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Speaker 2: of dollars at stake. Jason Philibaum, defense attorney, Thanks for

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Speaker 2: coming on the show.

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Speaker 1: Have a great weekend. Good luck with the time change.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Be well.

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Speaker 2: Scott Sloan Show continues after news update in just seconds

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Speaker 2: here on seven hundred WW we'll get Will Gantz on

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Speaker 2: our ABC Entertainment guy.

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Speaker 1: Britney Britney Spears is in jail. Let me ask you something.

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Speaker 2: Is there anyone more of a rock star than Britney

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Speaker 2: Spears doing stuff that rock stars do. I mean, Harry

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Speaker 2: Styles is dropping a new album, will come with that.

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Speaker 2: Look at Harry South, that's a rock start. Now Britney

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Speaker 2: is doing rock and roll stuff right there, getting pop

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Speaker 2: for Dewey. We'll get into that next seven hundred w

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Speaker 2: al