1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,480 Speaker 1: I usually have him by zoom, but I got on 2 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: my phone today and we are talking with my good 3 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: friend Jack Carr, who is a former Navy Seal sniper 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: both as an enlisted man and as an. 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 2: Officer and leader of men. 6 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: He is a multiple time best selling author and one 7 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: of the few folks who is a best selling author 8 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: in both fiction and non fiction. And his latest book 9 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: that I'm holding in my hand is called cry Havoc. 10 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: And for those of you who are reading and or 11 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: watching the Terminal list write the books the Amazon stuff, 12 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: cry Havoc is kind of like a pre prequel because 13 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,959 Speaker 1: the main character in terminalists the protagonist, James Reese. This 14 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: book is about James Reese's dad in the Vietnam War. Anyway, 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: that's enough talking from me, Hi, Jack, Thanks for being here. 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me having that back of 17 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 3: a speeding suburban in the rain going from Orlando Airport 18 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 3: to Vero Beach for the nice book signing Evanslf'm so 19 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 3: glad we got to do this. So it's always great 20 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 3: to talk to you. 21 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 22 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: Likewise, for the next question, you're allowed to say, I 23 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: could tell you, but I'd have to kill you. I 24 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: am aware that recently you were traveling. Are you allowed 25 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: to tell us anything about why and where you were traveling? 26 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: Or is that I could tell you, but I'd have 27 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: to kill you. This Morocco the IR referring too, if 28 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 1: you're allowed to say it. 29 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 3: I think so. So we finished up filming True Believer 30 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 3: over in Morocco. He started filming back in February in 31 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 3: South Africa. Got some amazing stuff over there, just incredible 32 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 3: for that part of the book. And now the TV 33 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 3: show that focuses on that part of the world where 34 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: James Rees goes to where to Live Again and put 35 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: the skills from rock in Afghanistan into use against the 36 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 3: poachers in Mozambique, and we filmed right up there in 37 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 3: the Poco Province, incredible and what to Toronto and then 38 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: Morocco for a few months and it is looking incredible. 39 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: So I guess that that would come out next summer. 40 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 3: I don't have any exact dates yet, nothing can burned, 41 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 3: but we're in post production right now. We have all 42 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 3: the ingredients to make an incredible show. That's always the 43 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: goal is to make the next show better than the 44 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 3: last one. So it's we're on that path. 45 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: And is that Chris Pratt back, you know, like full 46 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: time in the show. 47 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 3: That is that it's Chris Pratt. And also Tom Hopper's 48 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: in there. We have Luke Hemsworth in there as Jules Landry. 49 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 3: And for those people who thought we would never ever 50 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 3: film a torture scene the way I describe it in 51 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,639 Speaker 3: the book, well yeah bye. 52 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 2: All right. 53 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: So I read Cry Havoc and for me, this might 54 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: be your best book. I mean it's certain, it's this 55 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: is an unbelievable book. 56 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: And you did an immense amount of research. 57 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about that the last 58 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: time I had you on where we were talking about 59 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: Darkwolf as much as the book. But tell me a 60 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: little bit about writing a Vietnam War story. 61 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is something I wanted to do and not 62 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 3: just say that there was Creden's Clear Out of Revival 63 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: playing in the background and then it's nineteen sixty eight 64 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: to kind of leave it at that. I wanted to 65 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 3: immerse the reader and then myself in the writing and 66 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 3: the research into nineteen sixty eight. And I thought that 67 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 3: I had a very solid foundation when it came to 68 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: the Vietnam War, A lessons the sixties in general, and 69 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 3: I realized that I started to write and started the 70 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 3: research process, that that was up the case. I had 71 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 3: just scratched the service. And that is why we're talking 72 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: here in October instead of in June, because the book 73 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: took a lot longer than I thought. At the outset, 74 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 3: I wanted every character to see the world only through 75 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 3: the lens of their life up until nineteen sixty eight, 76 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: so without the benefit of fifty plus years of hindsight. 77 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 3: So that's all they could bring to a problem set, 78 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 3: discussion and events, situation, whatever it might be, was their 79 00:03:56,880 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 3: life experience up until nineteen sixty eight. And that's a 80 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 3: lot more work than a contemporary thriller. 81 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: Well, you can tell you did the work, you know, 82 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: when you read this book, you can tell, you can 83 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: really tell you did the work. And I think again 84 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: you and I mentioned this where you mentioned it briefly 85 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: last time we talked. But there's something that must have 86 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: been sort of liberating for you as a writer, and 87 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 1: also I think liberating for me as a reader to 88 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: not have to worry about the Internet and cell phones 89 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: and facial recognition and all this stuff. 90 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 2: And it's just like an old school war spy. 91 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 3: Story exactly exactly. I didn't have to worry about teslas 92 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 3: and gps is and our bones and all the things 93 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 3: that you just mentioned. It could be pure trade craft, 94 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 3: pure spycraft, and really phones and this technology of the 95 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 3: day has to be woven into every chapter in a 96 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 3: contemporary thriller because it's so all consuming in our lives, 97 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 3: to say nothing of what it does to an intelligence 98 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 3: operation or the military apparatus in general and time. Not 99 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 3: having to deal with that was amazing, and I wanted 100 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 3: to drop an Spona story into the heart of Southeast Asia. 101 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 3: Nineteen sixty eight is the most bloody year of the 102 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 3: war for the United States, started with the USS Publow, 103 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 3: which kicks off in January and then goes for a 104 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 3: full year. But I wanted to drop somebody right into 105 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty eight or someone who lived through that timeframe. 106 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 3: I wanted them to know that I put in the 107 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: work to try to get that right. And also to 108 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 3: anyone who went down range in Iraq and to Vietnam, 109 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 3: I wanted them to know that I've put in the 110 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 3: work to get the details right so that I went 111 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 3: on their service and not draw them out of what 112 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 3: I thought at the beginning was a completely fictional story, 113 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,359 Speaker 3: but as I moved forward, I realized there might be 114 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: a lot more facts than fiction in the story I 115 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: lay out as really spana story dropped into the heart 116 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 3: of psion. 117 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: We're talking with Jack Carr about his new thriller novel, 118 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: cry Havoc, And all of Jack's books are great, but 119 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: I put this up, you know, add or among the 120 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 1: very best. I thoroughly, thoroughly loved this book for those 121 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: who were only modestly acquainted with Jack Carr. In addition 122 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: to Jack wanted to do two things when he was 123 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: a kid. When he grew up, he wanted to be 124 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: a Navy seal and he wanted to be a bestseller, 125 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: best selling thriller author. And there's lots of people who 126 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: try one or the other, and most people who try 127 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 1: either one fail at either one. And Jack has succeeded 128 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: at both, which. 129 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 2: Is a remarkable thing. 130 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: But Jack's mom is a librarian, So when you read 131 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: Jack's work, there's a there are all kinds of literary 132 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: references in it that you just don't normally get in 133 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: thriller in thriller novels. And I just want to share 134 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: a little bit from page one, Oh three here that 135 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: that made me. 136 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,119 Speaker 2: That made me laugh. 137 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: Let's see, you seals have anybody like Maggie Graves asked, no, 138 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: but maybe we should. Nobody writes books about us though, 139 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: and then and then it goes on, hey, are you kidding? 140 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 1: They're talking about who's writing books? 141 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,599 Speaker 2: And then Tom says, are you kidding? 142 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: No seal would ever write a book, and then Graves says, 143 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: you have to learn how to write first, anyway. 144 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: That's hilarious, dude. 145 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I believe that sort of thing in there, 146 00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 3: like to humanize the characters, particularly through dialogue. That's where 147 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 3: I really get to know the characters because I know 148 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 3: who they are and how they're going to move the 149 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 3: story forward. But I don't really get to know them 150 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 3: until I put them in conversation with one another. So 151 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: in this one you find out about where James Reese, 152 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: obviously decades later, is going to get that connection to 153 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: a tomahawk, to a nineteen sixty eight Rolex Stufmarin, or 154 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: to honey in the coffee. So there's all these little 155 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: things that are woven in there like that. Of course, 156 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: there's some nods the popular culture, like Magnum Pi and 157 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 3: a few other things as well. But if you walked 158 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 3: into my office anytime over the last year, you would 159 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 3: have thought that I was invading North Vietnam or getting 160 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 3: ready to admit North Vietnam. I had maps from the 161 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: sixties all over the walls with red pins in them. 162 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 3: I had Car fifteen right there. I had brown and 163 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: high power right there, Randall Knives, seyko Watches, the sixty 164 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 3: eight Rolex Wealthome companies that had manuals from night the 165 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 3: sixties on Motnyard, tribes, customs, and cultures, and it was 166 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 3: it was. It was quite something to behold. 167 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: Wow, did you have a modus? 168 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 3: I could have probably got one, and now that we 169 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: live in Utah, I haven't had time to figure that 170 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 3: out yet. 171 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: That's funny, all right. 172 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: So one thing that stood one of many things that 173 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: stood out in cry Havoc for me and listeners know, 174 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: from time to time when we talk with authors fiction authors, 175 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: I will sometimes bring up something where I say, it's 176 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: very obvious that this is the author talking to me 177 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: at least as much as it's the character talking to me. 178 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: And Jack does that from time to time in the books. 179 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: And I don't I don't have the page in front 180 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: of me but there's there's a part where the characters 181 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: the let's see what is it? The Russian characters are 182 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: talking about out how much work the American media is 183 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: doing to hurt the United States and turn the American 184 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: public against the government and all that you talk about. 185 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: That Do you know what I'm talking about? 186 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 3: I do, And it was I think it's really the 187 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 3: first time that I'm aware of, at least where it's 188 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 3: obvious that the press is not just a check on 189 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 3: government power. Their job is not just reporting. And he 190 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: saw a shift. If you remember the newsreels from World 191 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: War Two with the matinees, a very different tone to 192 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: those than the reports on Vietnam during the sixties. And 193 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 3: I think that's something morphs there, maybe late fifties, early sixties, 194 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: certainly around Kennedy assassination, where the press realizes that they 195 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 3: and I shouldn't say the press in general, I'm generalizing here. 196 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 3: Let's say certain personalities in the press, and it realized 197 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 3: that they aren't just a check on government power. They 198 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,680 Speaker 3: can influence events, they can influence policy, they influence the 199 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 3: perception of events. And it's not like that saying where 200 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: you barely get to know somebody someone's character when you 201 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 3: give them power. And I think the press realized their 202 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 3: power back then and realized that they could use it 203 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 3: not just to report and check on government, but to 204 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: influence the populace and influence policy. And we really see 205 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 3: that in nineteen sixties, particularly nineteen sixty eight around the 206 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 3: tet offensive. 207 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: So do you I mean, I think this is maybe implied, 208 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 1: but I want to make sure I'm not reading more 209 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: into it than you intended to put there. 210 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: So, on the one hand, you just described. 211 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: A recognition that the media can use their influence to 212 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: change public perception and maybe even change the behavior of government. 213 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: Is the next step? Are you? 214 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: Are you implying that the media did that in a 215 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: way that you disapprove of, And if so, is it 216 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: because you think the media should never do that kind 217 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: of thing, or because of specifically what they did regarding 218 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: the Vietnam War is something that you think was bad, wrong, unethical, 219 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 1: something like that. 220 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 3: I'm just really saying how it was really an outside 221 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 3: observer pointing out that shift. And of course, later we 222 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 3: get to news organizations where when we have opinions and 223 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 3: we know that someone's host is an opinion, that sort 224 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 3: of a thing but we're not really there yet. In 225 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty eight, people think the press is the press 226 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 3: of World War Two, and they're getting the facts from 227 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 3: those reporters on the ground, but really they're being manipulated. 228 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 3: And of course now it's moved well beyond that, with 229 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 3: the tech overlords now dominating news and being able to 230 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: through different social media platforms, be able to influence not 231 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: just someone's buying habits, but thoughts as well as behaviors. 232 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 3: So it's really it's morphed. And there's another sentence in 233 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 3: there that it's right around the same time, I have 234 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: the two characters on China Beach and they're talking and 235 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 3: talking about the difference between the Department of Defense and 236 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 3: Department of War precision in the language being precisioned in thought. 237 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 3: So as soon as that was announced from the administration, 238 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 3: of course people started texting me about that, because I've 239 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 3: mentioned it back in two thousand and one when I 240 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 3: wrote articles about the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I mentioned it 241 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 3: on many news programs. I think we've even talked about 242 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 3: it on this show. And of course that happens, and 243 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: I'm not saying that the administration got that idea from me. 244 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 3: I'm just saying that I had never heard anybody talk 245 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 3: about it before I did back in two thousand. Well, 246 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 3: that's all I'm saying. 247 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: By the way, it's kind of additionally fun for me 248 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: to read this book because I've been to Denang n Trang, 249 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: Marble Mountain, China, p h Saigon, Hanoid Lot, which is 250 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: have you been to Dalt Have you been to Vietnam? 251 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 3: Oh no, No, I was planning on going for this book, 252 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 3: and then one deadline whipped right by, then another, then another, 253 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: and so I never got to go. And that was 254 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 3: really something I was planning on doing January. I was 255 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 3: going in February. I was planning on going in March, 256 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 3: and it just never happened for this book, unfortunately. 257 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: Well hopefully you get there. A Lot is an incredible town. 258 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: You really really got to see it a lot, all right. 259 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: I got two more points. 260 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: Against there one day. Yeah, as I planned at some 261 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 3: point go back to Tom Reeves. Not for a few years, 262 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 3: because yeah, it's a lot out of me, a lot, 263 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 3: I bet a lot out of me. So I'll me 264 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 3: recovering from this one for a while. 265 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 266 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: All right, two more questions as you're writing this book. 267 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: How often did you find yourself having to remind yourself, No, 268 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: that's a thought that somebody would not have had in 269 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:35,959 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight. 270 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: That's a twenty twenty five thought. I need to get 271 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: that out of there. 272 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was pretty much constant. It was, but it 273 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: wasn't something I catched myself doing. It was just something 274 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 3: I was aware of the entire time. So it wasn't like, oh, 275 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 3: I wrote that, Oh I got to take that out 276 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 3: because someone wouldn't think that back then. It was a fumbjob. 277 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 3: Through the very first day that I started writing this, 278 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 3: I was aware that I needed to take that view 279 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 3: and I needed to put myself back in nineteen sixty 280 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 3: eight in order to write the kind of book that 281 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 3: I wanted to write this time. So I essentially did 282 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 3: everything I could have transport myself back to that year 283 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 3: so I could transport readers back to that year. So 284 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 3: it never came up as I caught myself and I 285 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 3: had to take this out to something that was part 286 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 3: of the writing process the entire time. 287 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: Okay, my last question for you, I'm going to come 288 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: back to literary stuff. 289 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: Who is Jean Larteguie. 290 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 3: An author, A journalist and someone who I think and 291 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 3: the authors know, and I forget if he was there exactly. Oh, 292 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 3: he was kind of mysterious. Thats why I left it 293 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: mysterious because I didn't know if he was actually in 294 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: Saigon in nineteen sixty eight, but he possibly could have been, 295 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: but it was too hard to tell. But he was 296 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: in and out of Vietnam, in and out of Central 297 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 3: South America, and just everybody should look him up and 298 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 3: add the Centurions at Victorians to their bookshelves. I think 299 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 3: Betrayus talks about him quite a bit as well, but 300 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 3: I think I have some quotes from those books and 301 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 3: in this book, and just just a just an incredible 302 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 3: guy before such colorful characters back then. 303 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 304 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: Well, whenever you mention a book, you know, I feel 305 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: like I need to add it to my list. My 306 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,920 Speaker 1: list is infinitely long, as is as is yours. But 307 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: I think you actually mentioned the Centurions two or three 308 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: times in cry Havoc, So clearly that's a bit means 309 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: something to you. 310 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 3: It sure does. It really talks about the you know 311 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 3: the difference between that uh well, the. 312 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 4: Insurgents and uh and the counterinsurgent and those who sit 313 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 4: back behind the desks and those who go out there 314 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: and do the job, and particularly the paratroopers, which we 315 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 4: can substitute special operators for for the. 316 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: Word paratroopers essentially in the way that they're they're described 317 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 3: in those books. So yeah, a lot of people in 318 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: special operations in military circles read them. 319 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: I guess I haven't you mentioned mac v SAG. I mean, 320 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 1: which is important to mention. Do you want to say 321 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: anything real quick about about that before we go. 322 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, mac togs a very innocuous type of a name. 323 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 3: But these guys were doing denied operations, that means going 324 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 3: into places where Americans were not supposed to go to 325 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 3: LB Cambodia, allows North Vietnam, and they did some of 326 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: the most hudacious missions of the Vietnam War. So I 327 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: have Tom Reese Navy CEO attached to this unit. And 328 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 3: also I found out that a lot of these units 329 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 3: were disappearing without a trace, and that's where I came 330 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 3: up with this storyline about how the Soviets might have 331 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: been able to compromise these missions and then come up 332 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 3: with a plan to actually bring some of these guys 333 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 3: captured to the Soviet Union Vietnam. So that's where it 334 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 3: all kicked off. And I think there's a lot more 335 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 3: fact in there than fiction. 336 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe that, and we won't dwell on it now. 337 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: But then the numbers that you give in the book 338 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: about the casualty rate among mac V SAD warriors are 339 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: really stunning. It takes a special kind of person to 340 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: have done that. I mean, it takes special kind of 341 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: person to have done what you did, too. But there's 342 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: something about the way you tell the story perhaps that 343 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: just seems in my mind to raise the mac V 344 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: SAG guys to a special level. 345 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 3: Well, I got the very fortunate to get to know 346 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: a lot of those guys, have them on my podcast, 347 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 3: read all their books, and then be able to ask 348 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 3: them questions throughout the writing process, send them chapters to check. Yeah, 349 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 3: sure I was doing them justice the way I described 350 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 3: their operations. So just had to off to them and 351 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 3: everyone who went down range during the sixties and seventies 352 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 3: in Vietnam. That was the dayli the foundation for the 353 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 3: rest of us and everything that's going to come after 354 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 3: September eleventh when it comes to technic techniques and procedures. 355 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 3: But they get to come home to the way that 356 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 3: we did. So pass off to all of those guys. 357 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: Jack Carr's new thriller novel, it's sort of partly military 358 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: thriller and very much spy thriller, is called Cry Havoc. 359 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: I think it's one of Jack's very, very best books, 360 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: and they're all great again. It's out now, Cry have it, 361 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: go buy it, go read it. Last thing, Jack, I 362 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: know you're going to do an event with my buddy 363 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:01,199 Speaker 1: Leland Vindtert, and I sure wish. I was thinking of 364 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: flying down to Florida come meet up with you guys, 365 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,879 Speaker 1: but I got to travel with Mike. I don't have to, 366 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,239 Speaker 1: but I'm traveling with my kid to go look at 367 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: some colleges. So I'm going to miss you, but have 368 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. You guys should have an amazing 369 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: conversation together. 370 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 3: Thank you. Really looking forward to that one. 371 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 2: Jack Carr, thanks for your time, Thanks for your service. 372 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Take care of talking to you.