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Speaker 1: It's nice. Eye's Dan Ray. I'm going easy Boston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: All right, everybody, welcome on into a Wednesday, a Wednesday

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Speaker 2: evening edition of Nightside. It is December third, and there's

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Speaker 2: snow on the ground and it is going to get cold.

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Speaker 2: So buckle up, button up, and take those gloves and

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Speaker 2: scarce the work or whatever wherever you are. If you're

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Speaker 2: in a car, you hope you're nice and warm. Got

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Speaker 2: that heater working well? Sometimes when I was young, you

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Speaker 2: have a car, the heater didn't work. That was tough

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Speaker 2: in like December January February. So with that all said,

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Speaker 2: I will tell you that I am indeed Dan Ray,

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Speaker 2: the host of Nightside. We are here every Monday through

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Speaker 2: Friday night from eight until midnight. We are still accepting

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Speaker 2: people who would like to participate in the charity, the

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Speaker 2: annual the thirteenth Annual Nightside Charity Combine. We'll talk about

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Speaker 2: that a little more later on, but if you want

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Speaker 2: to get my email and you'd like to participate as

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Speaker 2: the leader of a charity, we'll give you some free

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Speaker 2: radio time on Tuesday, the twenty third of December. That'll

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Speaker 2: be the last hour or two of the show. On

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Speaker 2: that night and we have we only have a few

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Speaker 2: spots left, but I want what will happen is people

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Speaker 2: will be sending me emails on the eighteenthro still room. No,

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Speaker 2: there will be no room. So again, if you are

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Speaker 2: someone who heads a charity, great, If you're somebody who

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Speaker 2: works with the charity, talk to the leader of the

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Speaker 2: charity and I have them send me an email and

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Speaker 2: just call in and Rob will give you my email.

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Speaker 2: It's Dan Ray Da n r E at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 2: It's a very important program for me personally and for

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Speaker 2: WVZ and certainly for the night side audience. Let us

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Speaker 2: begin tonight. We are going to talk about a controversy

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Speaker 2: up at the State House with Sam Drysdale, state House

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Speaker 2: News reporter. She does a great job. Graduation framework work

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Speaker 2: has been recommended for new high school tests that sent

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Speaker 2: down the spine of the teachers union. For some reason,

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Speaker 2: we got rid of m casts, which I think was

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Speaker 2: a huge mistake. Sam, Welcome back tonight, Satt. How are

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Speaker 2: you tonight?

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Speaker 3: Hi?

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Speaker 2: Dan?

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Speaker 4: How are you? Thanks for having me?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great well. I make these sort of editorial

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Speaker 2: comments because I just can't help myself. But why did

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Speaker 2: you give us the straight scoop as a State House

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Speaker 2: news reporter as to what's going on the last few days.

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Speaker 2: This framework was recommended, i believe by the governor and

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Speaker 2: the state Secretary of Education, and it was not well

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Speaker 2: received universally.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So, after voters last year decided to decouple the

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Speaker 4: m CAST from graduation requirements, meaning students don't need to

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Speaker 4: pass that standardized test anymore in order to graduate with

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Speaker 4: a Massachusetts diploma, the state has needed to come up

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Speaker 4: with new standardized requirements and that's been a process over

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Speaker 4: the last year and they just came out with their

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Speaker 4: draft recommendations this week. They're they're not the final recommendations.

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Speaker 4: Those will be coming next summer, but this is the

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Speaker 4: first look at what the governor and her Secretary of Education,

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Speaker 4: Patrick Tutwiler, has in store for students. And those include

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Speaker 4: new exams, so not the MCAST, but what they're calling

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Speaker 4: end of course assessments, so taken at the end of

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Speaker 4: you know, your standard high school high school courses algebra, Biology, English,

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Speaker 4: to test whether students have learned everything they need to

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Speaker 4: learn in that class. And that is going to be

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Speaker 4: coupled with other ways to prove mastery in high school,

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Speaker 4: so capstones, portfolios, that sort of thing, and the assessments

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Speaker 4: will be graded by the state, and the capstones and

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Speaker 4: portfolios and projects those will be graded locally, which the

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Speaker 4: state sees as a sort of copies. But the teachers

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Speaker 4: union who the Massachusetts Teachers Association specifically, they led the

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Speaker 4: charge to remove the past from graduation standards. And even

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Speaker 4: though they sit on the council that helped put forward

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Speaker 4: these recommendations, they're they're not happy to see that testing

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Speaker 4: is back back in front of students to help determine

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Speaker 4: whether or not they're going to graduate.

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Speaker 2: Well, well, give us again seeing the euphemism. I love euphemisms,

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Speaker 2: the euphemism that is being used that they don't use

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Speaker 2: the word test. What was the phrase you use? I

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Speaker 2: should have written it down.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's end of course assessments, end.

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Speaker 2: Of course assessment. Yeah. I hope that that part of

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Speaker 2: that is an explanation of the word euphemism, because that's

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Speaker 2: what it is. Uh. I mean, it's like when you

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Speaker 2: when you check out of the you know, a hotel

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Speaker 2: after a weekend. Uh, would you would you like to

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Speaker 2: total up your your your charges as opposed to here's

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Speaker 2: your bill? How are you going to pay it?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. So so the teachers Union is going to

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Speaker 2: fight like tooth and nails, Uh, tooth and nail and

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Speaker 2: and and all the poor high school kids. Uh, they'll

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Speaker 2: they'll be confused. And what is a end of course assessment?

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Speaker 2: I mean it's it's it's a test. It's you could

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Speaker 2: call it whatever you want, but.

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Speaker 4: Yep, it's it's a test.

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Speaker 2: Is there a consequence? Is there a consequence for anyone

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Speaker 2: that doesn't show? I love the word we're talking about

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Speaker 2: a mastery. I mean only when you think about a mastery,

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Speaker 2: you think about someone they have a master's education in whatever,

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Speaker 2: you know, two years past or a year past. Yes,

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Speaker 2: their bachelor's degree. But again another word that what does

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Speaker 2: it mean? I don't know. It's it's very frustrating here

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Speaker 2: at Massachusetts. It must be fun for you guys at

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Speaker 2: the State House to cover this stuff. I did it

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Speaker 2: a long time ago, and it was easier back then. Look,

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Speaker 2: I always ask I love State House News service. You

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Speaker 2: guys do a great job. And I'm not saying that

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Speaker 2: because no, I really mean that you you were doing

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Speaker 2: genuine journalism that oftentimes the Globe and or the Herald

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Speaker 2: doesn't have the personnel to do. I read your stuff

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Speaker 2: all the time, and your materials can be I believe,

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Speaker 2: made available to regular citizens. All they have to do

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Speaker 2: is sign up, and there's probably a subscription fee, I assume.

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Speaker 2: But if people are interested in reading about what's happening

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Speaker 2: in the four walls or however many walls they have

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Speaker 2: of the State House, the state House News certain service

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Speaker 2: is a great Uh. It does just does a great job.

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Speaker 2: How can how can the average person get a subscription

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Speaker 2: or or read your work on a day to day basis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we cover everything that's going on inside the State House.

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Speaker 4: So if anyone is interested in that, you can just

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Speaker 4: go to state House News dot com. There's a subscription

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Speaker 4: button and you can see try to find a plan

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Speaker 4: that works for you as an individual, and usually our

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Speaker 4: subscription team is willing to work with anyone who just

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Speaker 4: is interested and wants a plan. And we also have

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Speaker 4: a free newsletter called master List if you just want

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Speaker 4: a free little tidbit of politics every morning.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's great. I love master List because

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Speaker 2: it also correct me if I'm wrong. It tells you

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Speaker 2: what jobs are open and available, and what jobs filled

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Speaker 2: uh and you it's you guys do a great job.

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Speaker 2: And we used to have back in the day when

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Speaker 2: I was a TV reporter in the seventies and eighties

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Speaker 2: and nineties, we had we had offices up at the

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Speaker 2: State House and even at City Hall, and we had

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Speaker 2: great reporters at WVZ. John Henning would be at the

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Speaker 2: State House and Walt Sanders would be at Boston City Hall.

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Speaker 2: And those days were gone. And thank God that the

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Speaker 2: State House News Service is there to fill the void.

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Speaker 2: And I just want to say thank you.

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Speaker 4: Well, we're there five days a week, so yep. Glad

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Speaker 4: to have a full press room still operating up there.

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Speaker 2: That's great. And as long as I get my invitation

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Speaker 2: of the annual Christmas party, which I'm never able to

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Speaker 2: make because I'm working mostly now. But I so appreciate

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Speaker 2: when you guys come on and break things down for us.

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Speaker 2: You do such a great job. Thank you, Sam.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you really, thanks.

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Speaker 2: Thanks talk to you so okay, have your back. You

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Speaker 2: have a great one.

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Speaker 3: Bye bye, Thanks you too.

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Speaker 2: All right, now we're going to answer the question of

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Speaker 2: why is customer service designed not to be customer server

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Speaker 2: to serve customers. That's exactly the problem, the real reasons

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Speaker 2: behind long hold times, dead end chatbox and disempowered agents.

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Speaker 2: Where we are going to be talking with the author

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Speaker 2: of a new book hold the Suffering Economy of Customer Service.

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Speaker 2: The name is Amas T. Numa. I'm hoping I'm getting

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Speaker 2: that name correctly. If not, I will be corrected. Right

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Speaker 2: after this quick break on Nightside, it is a Wednesday night.

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Speaker 2: Winter has arrived. We are three days deep into the

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Speaker 2: meteorological winter. Stay with us. We have some great topics

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Speaker 2: coming up tonight. There's a new book out by Dan Flynn.

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Speaker 2: It is about the life of a very influential conservative

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Speaker 2: activist that you may never have heard of, a fellow

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Speaker 2: named Frank Meyer. He also helped shape the person and

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Speaker 2: the personality of a longtime WBZ talk show host, David Brudnoy.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to talk with Dan Flynn, and then

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Speaker 2: at ten o'clock you could ask whatever questions you want.

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Speaker 2: The truth about college, the essential guide for parents and

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Speaker 2: teens so you can make the right choice Together, Rick Edelman,

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Speaker 2: He'll also be willing to talk to you about I

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Speaker 2: guess financial issues as well. Back on Nightside right after this.

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Speaker 1: You're on night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ, Boston's

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Speaker 1: news radio.

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Speaker 2: I'm delighted to welcome Amas to NUMA. He's an MBA

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Speaker 2: and author of a new book, Hold The Suffering Economy

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Speaker 2: of Customer Service. He's a former customer service executive. Amas.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to blame you, but customer service is

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Speaker 2: gone in America for the most part. How are you tonight?

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Speaker 3: Thank you so very much for having me. And look,

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Speaker 3: you're correct, customer service isn't broken, it's profitable. I helped

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Speaker 3: build the system some people are fighting against, and I'm

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Speaker 3: here to explain why they feel the way they do.

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Speaker 3: Go right ahead, listen the if you if I asked

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Speaker 3: you to name five companies, like national companies that you

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Speaker 3: just love their customer service, I doubt you could.

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Speaker 2: I could name one. I couldn't name one.

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Speaker 3: And so you've got to think, when something is this

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Speaker 3: uniquely bad across every major company. It's never an accident.

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Speaker 3: It's the design. You know, it's not in competence. These

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Speaker 3: are companies that have really brilliant people. I have run

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Speaker 3: large customer service organizations, so they are really brilliant, smart

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Speaker 3: people there, and yet you know they're all uniformly bad

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Speaker 3: and that's just because it's just the design of how

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Speaker 3: customer service has been built in this day an agent.

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Speaker 2: Well, it used to be that in this country, the

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Speaker 2: slogan of any company was the customer is always right.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure you might. You're probably much younger than I am,

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Speaker 2: because everybody's much younger than I am at this point

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Speaker 2: of mass. But there were companies that said, so if

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Speaker 2: if you went back there and you said, this hammer

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Speaker 2: doesn't work, I hit a nail and the nail went sideways.

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Speaker 2: This had it can't be me. It has to be

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Speaker 2: a bad hammer. Nothing wrong with the hammer. The person

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Speaker 2: doesn't know how to use a hammer. But the company

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Speaker 2: would say, let me take that hammer back and we'll

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Speaker 2: get you another hammer, or or have you thought about

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Speaker 2: using a screwdriver? You know? But the customer was never

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Speaker 2: Now it's like you end up fighting. Look. I went

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Speaker 2: to purchase something in I guess early October. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to name the company, but I didn't realize it

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Speaker 2: was a company that was producing their products in China.

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Speaker 2: So I purchased the product, put my credit card in,

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Speaker 2: and all of a sudden I got uh a notice

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Speaker 2: that the company that the product was being shipped in

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Speaker 2: Mandarin Chinese. And I know you won't believe this, but

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Speaker 2: I don't speak Amanda in Chinese. Uh, I know, I know,

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Speaker 2: what can I tell you? Uh? And so so the

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Speaker 2: company uh finally sent me something in English said that

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Speaker 2: said the product had arrived in the United States, but

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Speaker 2: it was misaddressed and it was sitting in a warehouse

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Speaker 2: somewhere in like Delaware. Well, I wasn't going to drive

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Speaker 2: to Delaware, Okay, And I said to myself, this is

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Speaker 2: this is a good enough time to cancel the order.

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Speaker 2: So I must say this. Lisa is one company that

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Speaker 2: I like, called him up, explained the situation to them.

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Speaker 2: They canceled it. The company tried to recharge me again

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Speaker 2: after they cancel it. I mean, now you now you're

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Speaker 2: in that vortex of horrible customer. You couldn't speak to anybody.

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Speaker 2: There was no phone number, nothing I should have. I

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Speaker 2: will never order anything from any company that I do

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Speaker 2: not know is an American based company. I'm gonna sound

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Speaker 2: like Donald Trump by bringing it all home as far

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Speaker 2: as I'm concerned at this boy, and I'm not a

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump guy per se. Okay, he does some good things.

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Speaker 2: So why are these companies doing this. You get people

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Speaker 2: on the phone. I got someone calling me today about medicare.

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Speaker 2: I don't do medicare. I don't need medicare. I had

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Speaker 2: my insurance coverage. And the person can't even speak, not

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Speaker 2: even close to what I would call English. And I,

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Speaker 2: you know, God love them. They're working, but they're working

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Speaker 2: somewhere in the Philippines or I don't know, Samoa. What

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Speaker 2: the hell do they know about medicare? Realistically? What problem?

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Speaker 2: They're just trying to sell me stuff. You know, you

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Speaker 2: hit a nerve a moscow right ahead.

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Speaker 3: This is why listen, it took me three years to

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Speaker 3: get to this book because I was also trying to

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Speaker 3: and so I've been in this business betweenty five years.

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Speaker 3: I was also trying to answer how did we get here?

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Speaker 3: And you know, this is an interesting tidbit. So the

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Speaker 3: first recorded complaint customer service complaint is from seventeen fifty DC.

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Speaker 3: A man carved four hundred words into a clay tablet

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Speaker 3: because he had bad customer service.

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Speaker 2: I think that was Moses and it was the ten Commandments.

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Speaker 2: I shall not lie. Get it. I know Moses is

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Speaker 2: a round later than That's an amazing that's.

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Speaker 3: Amazing, and we have it. And if you go read it,

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Speaker 3: and I actually start the book, the very first word

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Speaker 3: out of the book is reading this, then in there

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Speaker 3: you would go, did this guy write this about an

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Speaker 3: Amazon product he bought? Because it reads very familiar. But

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Speaker 3: here's what was different. What was different there was we

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Speaker 3: had not invented marketing yet. And I blame marketing for

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Speaker 3: the change in it incentives. And here's let me explain

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Speaker 3: that I researched this, and God, here is that. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you think you know when you say soap operas,

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Speaker 3: people don't realize soap operas were invented just to sell soap.

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Speaker 3: They weren't. They weren't just dramas.

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Speaker 2: In the fifties. In the fifties, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the moment they realized in the ADMIN that they

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Speaker 3: could tell a good story to convince people to buy something.

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Speaker 3: They could tell a good story to say, hey, you

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Speaker 3: know what, Dan, we've changed. It's a new thing. Come back.

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Speaker 3: Then all of a sudden, on like in seventeen fifty BC,

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Speaker 3: and before we had marketing, their entire thin was the

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Speaker 3: customer was always right. Customer service was marketing. You were

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Speaker 3: not going to sell something else. You were not going

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Speaker 3: to get people to buy your products if you didn't

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Speaker 3: treat the ones you had with dignity and with respect

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Speaker 3: and good quality. That is no longer true because you

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Speaker 3: and I, even though we're complaining about customer service, the

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Speaker 3: next time some of the companies shows up with some

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Speaker 3: slick marketing I ads and tells us ten percent off,

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Speaker 3: we are back there again buying for it. And so

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Speaker 3: customer service is no longer about the customer's right. It's

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Speaker 3: just let me just keep you happy, let me do

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Speaker 3: the bare minimum, because if I need new customers, and

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Speaker 3: if i need you to come back again, I've got

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Speaker 3: a marketing department.

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Speaker 2: You know who else you gotta blame. I hope you

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Speaker 2: have a chapter in there on the being counters and

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Speaker 2: absolutely and adventure capital and and private equity that go

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Speaker 2: in and they rip these companies apart. Here amss. I'm

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Speaker 2: out of time because I got to do a new

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Speaker 2: I don't do it. The newspaper got to do a newscast.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to bring you back some night, and we're

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Speaker 2: gonna do an hour a little bit later in the night,

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Speaker 2: and we're gonna let callers call in because I do

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Speaker 2: the first hour I do four interviews. You will one

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Speaker 2: of the interviews tonight. It's not fear to the audience.

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Speaker 2: They are they're screaming right now and is saying, finally,

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Speaker 2: what is the name of the book is hold? The

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Speaker 2: suffering economy of customer services should be called the suffering

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Speaker 2: Economy of customer disservice. But how can they get your book?

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Speaker 2: How can they get your book? And what's the website

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Speaker 2: that we can get people to to help help you out?

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Speaker 3: I appreciate it. The book is everywhere on Amazon and

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Speaker 3: Barnes and Noble. If you go to Waiting for Service

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Speaker 3: dot com and you click on the tool section, I've

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Speaker 3: given you tools on how to beat the system, so

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Speaker 3: you can go there. You don't have to give me

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Speaker 3: your email addresses. Tools there, and I would love to

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Speaker 3: come back and chop more with your arms.

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Speaker 2: Let me tell you. I got stories. I got stories.

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Speaker 3: I can tell you.

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Speaker 2: One time I call American Airlines and I get a

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Speaker 2: woman who clearly I know UH is probably somewhere what

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Speaker 2: we call offshore. And again I'm going to sell that.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump, please forgive me.

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Speaker 3: So because it's cheap.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly so I said it. I said, where are

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Speaker 2: you located? Because she woun't speak, you know, she's trying

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Speaker 2: her best, But I said, where are you located? American

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Speaker 2: Airlines located in Dallas, Texas. I said, I know we're

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Speaker 2: American Airlines, But where could I find you right now?

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Speaker 2: If I just send a letter to you? She wouldn't

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Speaker 2: tell me, so she said, why are you asking me that?

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Speaker 2: And I didn't want to insult her anything. I said, Okay,

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Speaker 2: let me ask you this question. What is the name

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Speaker 2: you're in Dallas? What is the name of the Dallas

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Speaker 2: Hockey team National Hockey League team? And she said to

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Speaker 2: me again, why are you asking me that? I said,

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Speaker 2: because I didn't want to ask you the name of

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Speaker 2: the cowboy of the Dallas Cowboys. That would be too easy. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: you have hit a nerve with me, buddy, with and

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Speaker 2: I'm not I don't have any novacateo on this. So

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Speaker 2: we will get in touch with you and we'll bring

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Speaker 2: you back in the next couple of weeks, with maybe

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Speaker 2: even within the week, and we'll do an hour and

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Speaker 2: we'll let everybody start to join the You could be

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Speaker 2: the president of the United States of America. On customer service.

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Speaker 3: I'm telling you I can't I can't wait looking forward

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Speaker 3: to it.

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Speaker 2: All right, Amas Tanuma, thanks of us. We'll be back

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Speaker 2: to you. We'll be back to you soon, I promise. Thanks.

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Speaker 2: We got the news coming up. And on the other side,

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Speaker 2: this is kind of a companion question here. One I've

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Speaker 2: thought of. Is online shopping a recipe for identity theft?

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking so, but we'll see what the vice president

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Speaker 2: of Global Data Breach Resolution and Experience says. This could

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Speaker 2: be an interesting conversation to stay with us on Nightside.

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Speaker 1: It's Niston's news radio.

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Speaker 2: Well in Fearless to my next guest, Michael Brumer, who's

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Speaker 2: the VP of Global Data Breach Resolution and Experience. First

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Speaker 2: of all, Michael, welcome to night Side. Thank you for

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Speaker 2: joining us. Dan, thank you very much. You well, thank

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Speaker 2: you very much. We were just talking with a prior

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Speaker 2: guest who was telling us how the customer service is

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Speaker 2: designed not to serve customers. It was, it was, and

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Speaker 2: I agree with him, but I am no longer interested

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Speaker 2: in doing online shopping because customer service is so bad.

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Speaker 2: Now we add to it, is online shopping a recipe

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Speaker 2: for identity theft? Just another reason not to go online?

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Speaker 2: More of a reason for me to go to brick

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Speaker 2: and mortar stores, but I suspect you're going to You're

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Speaker 2: going to tell me that that is a fear that

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Speaker 2: is unfounded.

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Speaker 5: Well, first of all, Dan, thank you for having me

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Speaker 5: well back in the wall. It's actually interesting because currently,

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Speaker 5: based on a recent Experienced survey, that only twenty six

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Speaker 5: percent of people are going to excuse me, only forty

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Speaker 5: three percent of people are going to shop online in store,

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Speaker 5: and fifty three percent are going to still do the

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Speaker 5: traditional point, click and purchase online. And we haven't had

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Speaker 5: any statistics that call for you know, it's because of

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Speaker 5: customer service. I think it's much more for convenience. But

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Speaker 5: online shopping is definitely more risky in twenty twenty five

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Speaker 5: than it ever has been.

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Speaker 2: So what can people do? And again, you're one of

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Speaker 2: the major credit companies in America. I have a subscription

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00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 2: to Experience just so you know, it's got nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with you being here tonight, But I believe in

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Speaker 2: an experience. So what can people do to minimize the

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Speaker 2: chance once you give them the credit card number? It's

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00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: like at a restaurant when they take your credit card number,

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00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 2: they walk in the back room. How do you know

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Speaker 2: someone's not copying that credit card number down.

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Speaker 5: Well, you're absolutely right, specifically about your circumstance. You should

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00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:52,200
Speaker 5: never let any server or any customer service agent take

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Speaker 5: your credit card away because you never know what happens.

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Speaker 5: And that's why a terminal in front of you, even

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Speaker 5: a mobile terminal terminal as much better.

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Speaker 2: Utter.

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Speaker 5: But in terms of consumer protection during the holidays as

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Speaker 5: well as any time of year, is don't click on

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Speaker 5: any links, don't use any public Wi fi. Make sure

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Speaker 5: that you're shopping on reputable websites and they have the

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00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 5: HTTPS in the URL, which means it's secure and it's encrypted.

401
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 5: I'm a big fan of virtual one time use credit cards,

402
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 5: and most of the card issuers offer you that option

403
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 5: versus using your actual credit card number.

404
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 2: I don't understand what that is, so WAEC I can

405
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: go to I'm a Visa cod guy. I can go

406
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 2: to Visa and say, you can give me a different

407
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,199
Speaker 2: number which you will recognize as my credit card. But

408
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,439
Speaker 2: if someone steals it, it steals that number, it's going

409
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Speaker 2: to be useless to them. How does that work?

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Speaker 5: That's you have it exactly correct. The major herd issuers

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00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 5: Visa MasterCard American Express discover when you're purchasing online, they'll

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Speaker 5: give you the option to use a one time use

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Speaker 5: virtual credit card versus the actual number.

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Speaker 2: So how do you do that? This the first I've

415
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 2: heard of that. Do you have to set that up

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00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 2: in advance? With Visa?

417
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm a purchase So if you have your card

418
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 5: linked in an app, you will you will give that

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00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 5: it'll give you that option. With those companies that I mentioned,

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Speaker 5: to be able to say do you want to use

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00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 5: your real credit card number or do you want to

422
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 5: use a virtual one time use credit card number? And

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Speaker 5: that's always the best choice.

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Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is, and again I don't want

425
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Speaker 2: to believer the point, but but you've struck upon something

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Speaker 2: which I'm unaware of. Therefore, I want my audience to

427
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,520
Speaker 2: be if I don't know, I'm assuming there might be

428
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Speaker 2: some people in the audience that don't know. I go

429
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Speaker 2: when I want to go to my account, you know,

430
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,159
Speaker 2: my Visa card. I do it on my computer. I

431
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: put in my password, I put in my my identification,

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Speaker 2: my password, and I go to my It gets me

433
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,160
Speaker 2: to tells me how much I've spent, how much I owe,

434
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: et cetera. All of that, how do I set how

435
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 2: do I do? I have to call Visa if you know,

436
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: and say, look, I heard about this new deal. Can

437
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 2: can What do I have to do?

438
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 3: Do?

439
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 2: I have to do it through the app and put

440
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 2: it on my phone and it's only in my phone.

441
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 5: I'm not familiar with how all of them do it,

442
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 5: but I can tell I can tell you what the

443
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 5: cards that I have, both for MasterCard and for American Express,

444
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 5: they will they will allow you when the credit card

445
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 5: request comes up, and normally it's just a blank space

446
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 5: to put in your credit card number. If you click

447
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 5: on that space, if you have your app on, whether

448
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 5: it's MasterCard or American Express, it will pop up do

449
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 5: you want to use a virtual credit card or do

450
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 5: you want to use your actual number? And it's always

451
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 5: best to choose the virtual one because it's one time

452
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 5: used and when it pops up, it'll show you a

453
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 5: different number than your actual credit card number, and so

454
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 5: that reduces fraud as well as the potential of identity.

455
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: Thought, Okay, that's a great piece of advice. I'm going

456
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 2: to call my credit card company tomorrow and have them

457
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: walk me through it, and I hope other people do

458
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 2: as well. But it's almost as if they will automatically

459
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: generate a number of whatever it is, sixteen character number

460
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 2: like your credit card, but that then will basically tell

461
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 2: your credit card company that this is a legitimate purchase

462
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: that you made through your actual credit card, but for

463
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 2: the purpose of this purchase, this phony number is associated

464
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 2: with your credit card for this purpose, for this purchase,

465
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: and this purchase alone. Oh but that's good stuff exactly. Yeah,

466
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: thank you for doing that. So let me just take

467
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: and finish up here a couple of a couple of

468
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 2: other questions if I could, Is there any other tip

469
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: that you could give us? You know, we get sloppy.

470
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 2: I find that in the more expensive restaurants. I remember

471
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 2: we were at the restaurant last Friday night. I handed

472
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 2: the credit card to the waiter waitress, and they took

473
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: it into the back room. Now I trust the place

474
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 2: we went to because we've been there many times. But

475
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: we ate at an Olive Garden on Sunday night and

476
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: they had the little screen right at your table. You

477
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: put the credit card in, the waitress was there with you,

478
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 2: They gave you the receipt. They never the credit card

479
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: never left my presence at Olive Garden, which makes me

480
00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 2: more of an Olive Garden fan. The lower end restaurants

481
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 2: being more sensitive to the to the need for credit

482
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: cards not to leave your hand.

483
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 5: I don't think so, because some of the restaurants and

484
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 5: my wife and I go to regularly, they all have

485
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 5: mobile terminals and they may say, hey, let me take

486
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 5: your credit card. The waitress or waiter is running around

487
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 5: and they want to grab a credit card and take

488
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 5: it to the bar, take.

489
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: It to the back.

490
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 5: And just because of the situation that I'm in from

491
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 5: a business perspective, I don't. I've just said, just bringing

492
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 5: out the card terminal and I'll use that because you

493
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 5: may trust the people in front, and you may know

494
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 5: the restaurant, but you don't know the people in back.

495
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, this was really helpful. Those are great tips, Michael,

496
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 2: and I never thought of it, but I know that

497
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: there are a lot of restaurants where the where the

498
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: wait personnel will have that portable. It almost looks like

499
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 2: an old transistor radio, you know, just stick the card in. Yeah,

500
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 2: the card never leaves your hand. Uh. At at Olive Garden,

501
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: it's a it's a it's a a device that sits

502
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 2: on your table and it never leaves the table, and

503
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: your credit card never never leaves your line of vision.

504
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: If folks want to get more information on Experience or

505
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: if they want to become a member of Experience, it's

506
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 2: just Experience dot com.

507
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 5: If I recall, it's Experience dot com. And then you

508
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 5: can also include forward slash data breach because that will

509
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 5: not only give you the consumer protection tips how to

510
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 5: protect yourself in advance of an incident, but if you

511
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,479
Speaker 5: have any issues, you will also tell you what to

512
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 5: do if you suffer identity fast for a scam. So

513
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 5: that's that's the address.

514
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: All great stuff, really, Michael Bruner Broomer, I appreciate it.

515
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: Vice President of Global Data Breach Resolution and Experience, Thank

516
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: you so much for taking some time tonight. I really

517
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: do appreciate what you do and what Experience does.

518
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 5: Thanks Dan, and thanks for nightside.

519
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 2: All right, we'll have you back. Thank you so much.

520
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: Will we get back. I'm gonna ask the question, the

521
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: age old question, is twelve too young for cell phone?

522
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 2: Yes it is, and we're going to talk with doctor

523
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: Catherine Athens. Get Athens like the city in Greece, the

524
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: capital of Greece. Doctor Katherine Athens. She's a psychologist and

525
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 2: an author here on Nightside. Nice save Rob coming back

526
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: on Nightside.

527
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray, Boston's news radio.

528
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: Well, all of us, as parents, at some point have

529
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: to deal with children or teenagers asking for a cell

530
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: phone and giving you all sorts of reasons why it

531
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 2: is in your interest to allow that child to have

532
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 2: a cell phone, and all of a sudden, the dynamics

533
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: of a family get shifted so that the child is

534
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: telling you what is best for you and best for them.

535
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: At least that's the dynamics in most families. Is twelve

536
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 2: too young for cell phone? I say yes. A new

537
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: study published in a peer reviewed journal Pediatrics found that

538
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: kids with a smartphone by age twelve faced an increased

539
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: risk of developing depression, sleep problems, and obesity. Smartphone is

540
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 2: different than a cell phone. Doctor Catherine Athens is with

541
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: us as psychologist and author. Smartphone is the next step

542
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: beyond a plain old what we used to think of

543
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 2: as the flip cell phones where you could do one

544
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 2: thing and that was either to make a call or

545
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: take a call. That was the flip phone. That was it. Hi,

546
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 2: doctor Athens, how are you tonight?

547
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 6: It's fine, thank you for having me. And absolutely you know,

548
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 6: research was done in the late eighties about how dangerous

549
00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 6: these phones are. They emit a lot of electromagnetic energy,

550
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 6: and our children's brains are growing even at age twelve. Recently,

551
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 6: the research has shown that a brain in a human

552
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 6: doesn't fully developed till the age of thirty five. And

553
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 6: what parents have done out of laziness is to allow

554
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 6: their children to start using their phones even at age three.

555
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 6: And we have children now whose brains will not go

556
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 6: to folk capacity. It has been shown in the research

557
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 6: that that smartphone will take the place in the brain

558
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 6: of the language center and the ability to have empathy.

559
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 6: And what we are seeing now are a lot of

560
00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,000
Speaker 6: young people who neither have empathy nor have the abilt

561
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 6: to speak. So we have done a terrible mis justice

562
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 6: to the human race, let alone our children.

563
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: Well in the highly developed countries of the world. Yes,

564
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 2: there's a lot of countries around the world where cell

565
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 2: phones are still a rarity. And here we are in

566
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: our own affluence. We are in effect a wash in

567
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: our own affluence. And I think it's interesting that the

568
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: twelve or thirteen year old kid is basically appealing to

569
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 2: the parental instincts saying well, mom and dad, you'll be

570
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: able to know where I am. And all the other

571
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 2: kids have them, and I can use them doing research

572
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,960
Speaker 2: on my paper on quantum physics when I get into

573
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: the twelfth grade. I mean, they have all of the lines.

574
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: They basically are either extorting, blackmailing, or perhaps doing both

575
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: of their parents in order to get a cell phone.

576
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: It is now, it is a piece of identity that

577
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: they these kids as young as we feel they need

578
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: to have. I mean, it has been really it's been

579
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 2: a scam in my opinion, and I think you probably will.

580
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 6: Yes, it is a scam. And you know, there's a

581
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 6: magic word for parents.

582
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 2: No.

583
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 3: They forgot.

584
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 6: They know, they forgot that magic word.

585
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,959
Speaker 2: My kids heard a lot of that word. They heard

586
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: a lot of that word. And the follow up comment was,

587
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: what is it about the word no that you do not.

588
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 6: Understand exactly exactly. And your job as a parent is

589
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 6: to raise the best human being you can and it

590
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 6: is not to give them a plaything so you don't

591
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:49,439
Speaker 6: have to pay attention to them. And that is what

592
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 6: that has become. And parents have been ignoring their children

593
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 6: because their children now have a plaything. That keeps them occupied. Yeah,

594
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 6: and that has resulted in a lack of social skills

595
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 6: and in depression and the fact we don't get together anymore.

596
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 6: I mean, you and I probably we had parties with

597
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 6: each other, we spoke to each other, we had you know,

598
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 6: interaction with another human being. And this device has made

599
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 6: it so that these young humans don't have to do that. Instead,

600
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 6: they can sit alone in a dark room for days

601
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 6: and not interact with anyone. And of course that is depressing.

602
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 2: It's all it's all electronic. There's it's text messages. They

603
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 2: watch endless reels of TikTok videos, which I don't know

604
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: where we're headed here. I don't want to sound like

605
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 2: a curmudgeon. I don't want to sound like Clint Eastward

606
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: get off my lawn. But I'm telling you we have

607
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 2: made some real fundamental mistakes. And despite the good work

608
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 2: of professionals like you, we have listened to the twelve

609
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: year old kids, and we have been cowed by those

610
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 2: twelve year old kids, and we have been guilt tripped. Well,

611
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 2: all the other kids have a cell phone, mom or dad,

612
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: and I'm the only one that's gonna be without. I'm

613
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: gonna have no friends, they know what heartstring to to

614
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: pull upon to get what they want.

615
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 6: Well, yes, but their logic is faulty and parents aren't

616
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 6: really thinking this through. This is a deadly piece of

617
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 6: equipment that a mits things that harm the nervous system.

618
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 6: And children need to develop healthy nervous systems to be

619
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 6: healthy adult human beings. And we have two generations of

620
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 6: many unhealthy human beings that can't relate to other human beings,

621
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 6: nor do they care about others.

622
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,720
Speaker 2: Okay, let me ask us doctor. We have a minute left. Okay,

623
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: the view that you and I have here is pretty dystopian.

624
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: Let's get positive and in less than a minute. What

625
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 2: can we do now with this generation? Must? Must those

626
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 2: parents develop a backbone and just learn to say no?

627
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: And you get a cell phone when you're eighteen? Is that?

628
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: Is that the answer? What's the answer?

629
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 6: The answer is, have a cardi at your house, invite

630
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 6: all your friends, put on some dance music, move the furniture.

631
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 6: If you have a swimming pool of a swimming par

632
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 6: or if you know, if not, have a party at

633
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 6: your house, have a pizza party, play games that you're

634
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 6: interacting with each other. Because people and children will have

635
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 6: a good time and will if they're exposed to this

636
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 6: kind of human interaction. We'll prefer it to a phone.

637
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: Doctor Katherine Athens, if you have a book out, I'd

638
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,439
Speaker 2: love to publicize the book here that parents can read.

639
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 2: Uh is the book? Is there a book available that

640
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: you've written?

641
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 6: Well, you know, The Heart Brain is a very wonderful

642
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 6: book because it talks about the relationship of the brain

643
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 6: in the head and the heart. Talks about how to

644
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 6: be a healthy, balanced person. It's science light. We wrote

645
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 6: it with very simple words, lots of illustrations.

646
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 2: What is the name of that book? And I assume

647
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 2: these books are always available on Amazon. What's the name

648
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 2: of the book?

649
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 6: You're right at the Heart Brain. It is available on Amazon.

650
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: Perfect, Doctor Athens, thank you very much. I enjoyed our

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Speaker 2: conversation immensely and we may do this again because I

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00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: thought there was a lot of wisdom and what you

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Speaker 2: shared with us tonight. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 6: I'm grateful, Thank you for having me. If you want

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Speaker 6: more information, Katherine Athens PhD dot com. Athens is at

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Speaker 6: H A N S. Catherine is c A T H

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Speaker 6: E R I N E. Go to my website.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, doctor Athens bro we get back,

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Speaker 2: We're going to have a conversation that will incorporate the

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Speaker 2: late great David Bradnoy. We're going to be talking with

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Speaker 2: author Dan Flynn about his new book, The Man Who

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00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: Invented Conservatism, being likely life of Frank S. Meyer, but

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Speaker 2: it talks a lot. We're going to talk about Frank

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Speaker 2: Meyer apparently had a tremendous influence on the development of

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Speaker 2: David Bradnois philosophy and his own brand of conservatism. Back

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Speaker 2: on Nightside, right after the nine o'clock News