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Speaker 1: We're back let's garden with Scott Berlin. I'm here with

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Speaker 1: Mark Wessel, my good friend, and we have another good

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Speaker 1: friend on the line, Bill Fountain. We're here to continue

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Speaker 1: our conversation about road salt and plant damage from last week.

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Speaker 1: Bill Fountain, Professor of Horticulture emeritus from the University University

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Speaker 1: of Kentucky. He taught half Mark you know this, half

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Speaker 1: the great horticulturists in the Ohio Valley I think, and

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Speaker 1: some that even escaped to other parts of the country.

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Speaker 1: He's retired from all that, but still teaches the best

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Speaker 1: of the best at the International Society of our Bora Culture,

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Speaker 1: teaching perhaps the trickiest part of our Boro culture tree

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Speaker 1: risk assessment, big responsibility. There he knows it all, and

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Speaker 1: we brought him back to continue our discussion on what

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Speaker 1: road salt does to plants and what we can do

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Speaker 1: about it. Bill.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning, Scott. How are you doing.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's early. I think I'm alive, feeling okay, I

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Speaker 1: guess how about you?

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Speaker 2: Good good. I'm trying to stay warm. We've had another

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Speaker 2: coal snap. Fortunately we didn't get any snow and ice

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Speaker 2: here in Lexington, but that's one of the problems and

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Speaker 2: we've had this winter is with snow and ice and

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Speaker 2: what to do with.

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Speaker 1: It right right now? Last week we spoke and I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry I didn't give you enough time. We just barely

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Speaker 1: started to scratch the surface. But we kind of determined

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Speaker 1: that salt raises soil pH two very high levels, which

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Speaker 1: limits the magnesium and iron for plants, maybe some other

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Speaker 1: nutrients as well. That causes clerosis and other issues with

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Speaker 1: the plants. And I think where we kind of ended

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Speaker 1: it up was the best mitigation. The best you can

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Speaker 1: do along roadsides, at least as far as soil, is

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Speaker 1: to try to add as much organic matter as possible.

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Speaker 1: Am I wrapping that up about right?

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Speaker 2: Yes? One the slight correction it is.

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Speaker 3: Manganesether than magnesium. Magnesium is another essential element for plants,

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Speaker 3: but manganese and the iron of the two of them

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Speaker 3: that are so essential for the production of chlorophyll that

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Speaker 3: and they get locked up when the pH gets high.

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Speaker 3: With the high pH, the manganese and the iron joined

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Speaker 3: with phosphors, which is readily available in our soils, and

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Speaker 3: it solidifies into a solid material that the plant cannot

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Speaker 3: take up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So you know, one thing I've noticed is that

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Speaker 1: roadside weeds are different than any other weeds in the world.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's in part because they can tolerate

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Speaker 1: high pH high salt. But we'll get back around to

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Speaker 1: that in a minute. One of you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the things I've always heard is that part of the

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Speaker 1: issue is sold is it dehydrates the plants, particular the roots.

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Speaker 1: Is there any truth to that?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, there is. Anybody that has ever reached for

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Speaker 2: the salt shaker on the kitchen table and turned it

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Speaker 2: upside down to shake some salt out onto the plants

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Speaker 2: and then nothing comes out has discovered that the hydroscopic

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Speaker 2: nature of salt and the salt actually has the ability

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Speaker 2: to pull moisture out of the air. Now, if you

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Speaker 2: get the salt in the soil, it can do the

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Speaker 2: same thing, and actually, instead of pulling it out of

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Speaker 2: the air, it pulls it out of the root system

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Speaker 2: of the plane. And so those root side weeds that

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Speaker 2: you were referring to actually have the ability to tolerate

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Speaker 2: a lot of that. They're a little more drought tolerant

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Speaker 2: and they have a strong pull for the moisture. So

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Speaker 2: they're a good competitor. And now also we talk about

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Speaker 2: weeds as being the plane out of place. They grow

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Speaker 2: on the roadside because they are tolerant for salt, they're

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Speaker 2: tolerant for drought, they're tolerant of the compacted soils and

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Speaker 2: unfortunately aren't very pretty sometimes.

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Speaker 1: Is this drawing of moisture away? Is this what's happening

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Speaker 1: when you see the conifers junipers along the roads that

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Speaker 1: are turning brown? Is it because the salt's pulling moisture

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Speaker 1: out of the leaves?

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Speaker 2: Yees. The salt does two different things depending on how

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Speaker 2: it gets to the plant. If it lands on the soil,

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Speaker 2: it can change the pH and you know, can cause

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Speaker 2: problems there. But is the salt gets into a spray,

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Speaker 2: it'll drift over and land on the leaves and it

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Speaker 2: pulls the moisture out of the foliage. Now, when you

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Speaker 2: think about where you're trying to grow cliants and where

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Speaker 2: you're perhaps living, is very very important. The speed of

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Speaker 2: the traffic. We put salt down on the roads to

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Speaker 2: melt the salt, melt the ice and melt the snow

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Speaker 2: so that we don't go sliding around and hitting of

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Speaker 2: the cars and other objects that are not going to

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Speaker 2: get out of the way. But when we have a

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Speaker 2: high speed on the highways or people are driving faster

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Speaker 2: and all of the salt is worked on the snow

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Speaker 2: and ice, then we get particle size. The faster the

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Speaker 2: speed of the traffic, the smaller the particle size of

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Speaker 2: the droplet of moisture. And the smaller the particle size

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Speaker 2: of that little droplet of moisture, the farther it's going

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Speaker 2: to drift and get onto the foliage.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've seen a lot of that on the

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Speaker 1: higher speed roads. That makes a lot of sense. Does

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Speaker 1: does roadside salt the spray? Does it do damage to

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Speaker 1: deciduous plants? Not in leaf yet, but you know by

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Speaker 1: getting on the stems and on the twigs and so forth.

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Speaker 1: Does that get into the plant and cause any damage?

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Speaker 2: Most definitely. So it can get not only affective evergreens,

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Speaker 2: the needle plants, needled evergreens and the broader leaf evergreens,

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Speaker 2: but it can get in through the stone of those

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Speaker 2: small openings on the stems of the deciduous plants, and

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Speaker 2: it'll get in there. And sodium can be toxic. Sodium

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Speaker 2: is not one of the essential elements that we have

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Speaker 2: that we need in order to grow plants.

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Speaker 1: Now, there's not a lot we can do about cities

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Speaker 1: using road salt. They just simply need to use it

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Speaker 1: when they can use it. But at home, are there

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Speaker 1: products that we can use that are less harmful to plants?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So anything that you put down on the sidewalk

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Speaker 2: is going to drift off when it's in the solution

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Speaker 2: of melted snow and ice. It's going to drift off

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Speaker 2: and get into our flower beds, into our lawns and landscapes,

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Speaker 2: and so it can cause problems. If we use something

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Speaker 2: like calcium chloride, for instance, the calcium is not going

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Speaker 2: to be as problematic as the sodium will be in

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Speaker 2: sodium chloride. Sodium chloride, reminder, is just the table salt

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Speaker 2: or the de icing salt, and it's used frequently because

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Speaker 2: it is cheap and we're all interested in saving money. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: the sodium chloride causes a lot of problems after the

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Speaker 2: ice is all melted.

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Speaker 1: Now it's calcium chloride problem free, or if you use

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Speaker 1: enough of it, is that going to harm your plants?

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Speaker 2: It can also harm the plants. It is not problem free,

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Speaker 2: is less problematic. So adding organic matter you mentioned adding

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Speaker 2: lots of organic matter at the beginning of our discussion.

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Speaker 2: Organic matter is sort of like a lot of the

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Speaker 2: foods that we eat. Some chocolate is one of my favorites.

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Speaker 2: Some is good, but if you eat too much of it,

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Speaker 2: going to get sick. If some is good, more is

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Speaker 2: not necessarily better. So we need to watch how much

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Speaker 2: organic matter we actually put into the soil. If you

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Speaker 2: put too much in there when we do get into

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Speaker 2: these real long, wet, rainy periods, it can become anaerobic.

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Speaker 2: And when you do that and you start digging down

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Speaker 2: into the soil, you'll get some off odors. You can

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Speaker 2: always tell when somebody is a real soil lover because

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Speaker 2: when they take a soil sample, the first thing they

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Speaker 2: do is they put it up to their nose and

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Speaker 2: sniff it. And if they pull it away and go

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Speaker 2: ooh boy, oh wow, that's the thing.

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Speaker 1: See, I always thought those people were weirdos, but they're

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Speaker 1: actually soil lovers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess you're calling me, calling me a weirdo.

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Speaker 2: That's one of the first things that I always do.

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Speaker 2: If it smells like rotten egg, that's hydrogen sulfide. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it's a very toxic material to the roots. There's

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Speaker 2: some other materials that are produced in the anaerobic decomposition.

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Speaker 2: So just as we will fermit certain fruits to make

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Speaker 2: alcoholic beverages, you can get alcohol produced in the soil

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Speaker 2: very very low concentrations, but it's toxic to plants. You

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Speaker 2: can get not only the hydrogen sulfide, but you can

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Speaker 2: get some mercaptans. There's another class of chemicals that everybody

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Speaker 2: is familiar with, the mercaptan generators that are out roaming

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Speaker 2: around on the roads at this time of year. These

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Speaker 2: are called skunks. Stunk Older is a mercat tan, and

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Speaker 2: so it's not only offensive to us, but it's deadly

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Speaker 2: to plants, and it's produced by bacteria as well as

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Speaker 2: a defensive chemical for the skunks.

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Speaker 1: So before we go to break and we'll come back,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk plants that can tolerate salt. Does we heard

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Speaker 1: a lot about be juice a few years ago? Is

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Speaker 1: that is that a good product?

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Speaker 2: Be juice is a sugary material, and sugar breaks down

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Speaker 2: very rapidly in the soil, and so it's not going

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Speaker 2: to cause the problems of the calcium chloride or particularly

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Speaker 2: sodium chlorine table salt. But be juice is a good

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Speaker 2: material and is a little less toxic. It doesn't work

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Speaker 2: quite as well as sodium chloride, but it causes a

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Speaker 2: lot less problems.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, when we come back, like I said, we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about some plants that can deal with this. And

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Speaker 1: well you're listening to Let's Garden with Scott Berlin. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back in just a couple of minutes.

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Speaker 1: You are listening to Let's Garden with Scott Berlin. I'm

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Speaker 1: here with Mark Wessel and doctor Bill Fountain. Bill, we

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Speaker 1: have just five or six minutes left, so we're going

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Speaker 1: to need to hustle a little bit here. But why

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Speaker 1: are some plants more tolerant to salt than others?

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess we have to look back in history

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Speaker 2: and it all has to do with evolution of those clients,

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Speaker 2: particularly where they came from. And so as we were

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Speaker 2: talking in the last portion about the damage that salt

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Speaker 2: can occur, it occurs in by damaging the soil, getting

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Speaker 2: into the soil. It also can occur as damaging as

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Speaker 2: a salt spray and drifting in the wind and getting

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Speaker 2: onto the foliage and even the stems of dormant plants.

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Speaker 2: So this is why we are borist. Wee horticulturists, nurshermen,

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Speaker 2: any of the landscapers, the county horticulture agents, all of

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Speaker 2: us say right tree or right plant, put it in

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Speaker 2: the right place. In other words, match the plant to

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Speaker 2: the site. Don't try and change the site to match

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Speaker 2: the cultural conditions of the plant. So if you don't

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Speaker 2: know your plants, get in touch with your county horticulture agent,

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Speaker 2: one of your local nurturemen an arborists and have them

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Speaker 2: help you select the type of plant. Now, there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of different plants that are out there that

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Speaker 2: are salt tolerant. And if you look at where these

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Speaker 2: plants evolved, either on the ocean shore, the shore of

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Speaker 2: the ocean or very close to the ocean, or in

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Speaker 2: a desert, these are plants that are going to be

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Speaker 2: tolerant to salt. Also the plants that have very smooth

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Speaker 2: leaves on them, and we'll get to a couple of

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Speaker 2: these different examples. One of my favorite plants, and if

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Speaker 2: we can talk about planets for a while, is the bayberry.

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Speaker 2: I love it because of the fragrant foliage and the

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Speaker 2: fragrant seeds, and this is what they use to make

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Speaker 2: bayberry candles, which is a pleasing aroma to many people.

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Speaker 2: So Marika m y r i c A. Marika Pennsylvania

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Speaker 2: named for the state of Pennsylvania, is the bayberry and

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Speaker 2: it is native to areas close to the ocean. It's

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Speaker 2: a beautiful plant. It's a shrubby material shrubby plants, so

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Speaker 2: it gets a little bit of size on it. Another

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Speaker 2: plant that I like that it's tolerant of the ocean

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Speaker 2: salt spray, is the shore juniper name because it grows

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Speaker 2: next to the ocean. That and the other other types

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Speaker 2: of junipers are generally fairly used salt tolerant. The Eastern

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Speaker 2: red cedar, which is native to this whole region, the

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Speaker 2: whole eastern United States, is actually a type of juniper.

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Speaker 2: It's not a cedar at all. It was just misnamed

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Speaker 2: for the common name. And so this is one of

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Speaker 2: the plants that is is good. Now, if you don't

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Speaker 2: like the looks of the native Eastern ridge cedar, a

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Speaker 2: lot of cultivars that have been selected out that have

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Speaker 2: a much more, much more attractive form to it. So

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Speaker 2: Regosa rose if you want something flowering, Regosa rose is

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Speaker 2: again native to the edge of the ocean.

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Speaker 1: Yep, I'm sorry I interrupted going.

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Speaker 2: Out, but it has a very fragrant flower on it,

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Speaker 2: and it's really nice and it's tough. Yupah holly is

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Speaker 2: marginally hearty for us. But anyway, it's a it's another

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Speaker 2: good plant, and it has a really shiny, smooth foliage

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Speaker 2: on it, just like the southern magnolia. And so if

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Speaker 2: you have these plants in a somewhat protected area, then

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Speaker 2: the salt spray will not adhere to that some very smooth,

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Speaker 2: waxy foliage on there, and it will get washed off

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Speaker 2: before it can cause any real problems. Then we've got

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Speaker 2: a whole group of plants that we horticultures like to

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Speaker 2: call the bomb proof planets. And these are the ones

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Speaker 2: that are just notoriously tough and durable and good urban trees.

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Speaker 2: At the top of the pyramid on these is the ginko.

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Speaker 2: It's been around for some one hundred and fifty million

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Speaker 2: years and is very very tolerant. You want to make

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Speaker 2: sure that you select the male varieties, so talk to

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Speaker 2: your nursermen about that, but ginko is very tough and durable.

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Speaker 2: It's fairly salt tolerant. One of my favorite deciduous trees

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Speaker 2: is the Kentucky coffee tree. And this is going to

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Speaker 2: be again a tree that is going to be tolerant

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Speaker 2: to the alkland soils. Soil can be made more alkland

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Speaker 2: or higher pH by salt. And burroke is another one.

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Speaker 2: If you've got enough room to grow a burroke, it's

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Speaker 2: a magnificent plant. Another nice woody shrub and groundcover is

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Speaker 2: the contoniaster. Again, it's got a foliage the very waxy

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Speaker 2: and very smooth, very dark green color Mahonia holly which

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Speaker 2: is not really a holly, but Mahonia is another good

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Speaker 2: plant because it's large evergreen foliage, very dark green or

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Speaker 2: bluish green depending on the type of mahonia that you get,

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Speaker 2: but anyway, it's going to be a really waxy foliage.

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Speaker 2: And you may not like all of them, but the

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Speaker 2: sumacs are very, very tallerant of salt. One of the

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Speaker 2: sumacs that I really like is the fragrant sumac. It's

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Speaker 2: known as the russ aromatica. And there's a cultivar called

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Speaker 2: Grollo that doesn't get any taller than about knee high

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Speaker 2: and is billion very nice. It is.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna have to wrap it up there. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're looking for salt tolerant plants, you can google

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Speaker 1: salt tolerance, look for PDF and ext suffixes to get

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Speaker 1: the good information. Bill, I want to thank you for

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Speaker 1: being here this week again, and when we come back,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna want your calls. Fifty mile hour plants? What

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00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,560
Speaker 1: are your favorite roadside plants? You're listening to Let's guarden

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Speaker 1: with Scott Berlin. We'll be back in a minute.

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