1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBS Boston's news radio. 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: We continue to talk about the US action in Venezuela. 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 2: During our last hour, we had a wonderful guest who 4 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 2: pointed out that this went so swimmingly that the President 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 2: is talking about other nations, including Cuba and even Greenland. 6 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: And she pointed out that Canada is even making plans 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 2: to how to defend themselves against the United States should 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 2: they need to, which is kind kind of awful. Now 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: I can see, I kind of get it the Venezuela action, 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: but Greenland's a bit of a stretch, regardless of Monroe doctrine. 11 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:49,840 Speaker 2: You know, Monroe doctrine sounds fancy, but all it really 12 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 2: means is we're going to do it because we can. 13 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 2: It's all it means. It's just a statement of might 14 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 2: makes right and this is what we say, and that's 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: what we want. And destiny invokes God. But I don't 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: know how appropriate that is now that I don't think 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 2: that counts here. Manifest destiny and Monroe doctrine just might 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: makes right and you can. It's it's a name that 19 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: everyone knows, which gives it a little credibility. But I 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: don't I don't think I have a hard time having 21 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: it apply to Greenland. And then you get to the 22 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 2: the question of how do you justify Greenland. I'm not 23 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 2: knowing about them running drugs? And what about Canada? At 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: what point, at some point does the US become Germany 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: invading Poland? And at what point are we truly, truly, 26 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 2: truly the bad guys. I'm going to get to our 27 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: guests in a moment where you have Bo Cabala, and 28 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 2: we'll talk to him, but I do want to talk 29 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: to Dotton, Medford and Robin Rhode Island, and then Bo'll 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: probably be able to respond to what these folks say. 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: So it's Dot in Medford. First, how do you do Dot? 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 3: Hi Bradley. Well, I've talked to you before and I 33 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 3: have been so upsetsin Satitay. I voted for Trump because 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 3: I had no other choice. I couldn't vote for her. 35 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: You know, I'm going to hold you up there, Dot 36 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 2: and ask you to do me a favor, and yeah, 37 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 2: how to stick to policy and not make this about 38 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: the personalities in the situation. 39 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: Well, of course, in a way you have to make 40 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 3: it about his personality. 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: No, No, I don't, I really don't Dot. 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 3: All right, okay, just. 43 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 2: Was it a good idea or was it a bad idea? 44 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 3: It's a very very bad idea. You cannot go in 45 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 3: and take a man and his wife out of their home, 46 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 3: kidnap them and take them to another country. You can't 47 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 3: do it. I mean, we have rules about that. It 48 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 3: is so atrocious. And now he's talking about Greenland Adisa. 49 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 3: When is it going to end? I think it's appalling. 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: I think something's got to be done to stop him it. 51 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about the policy and not the person. 52 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 2: All right, let's see what our guests says about that. 53 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Dot, And then we go to Bob 54 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: and Rhode Island and Bo's listening and he'll way in 55 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: on all talking to me or what? Yes? Bob? Good? Yes? 56 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 4: Okay, I agree with Dot the last faller. You don't 57 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 4: want to talk about personalities, but how can you not 58 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 4: talk about this guy that's in the White House? 59 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: Now? 60 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 5: Okay, he's doing he's big, you're talking about biggest. 61 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: Here's the way I don't agree talk about it. That's 62 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: you asked me, how do I not talk about it? 63 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: That was it? I very specifically asked you, and I 64 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: knew it would be difficult, and I'm willing to take 65 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 2: the chance talk about the policy. Don't waste my time 66 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: talking about a man that's been done a lot already. 67 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: Now let's go to the guests, doctor Bowl, Kabbala. 68 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 5: How you doing, sir, Hey, I'm doing great, good evening. 69 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 5: I hope you're doing great up there. A nice to 70 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 5: connect with you. So yeah, I mean it's a pretty momentous. 71 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: Before we get go, tell us a little bit about you. 72 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: Where you're calling from? What do you do? 73 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 6: Sure? 74 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 2: Where do you do it? 75 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 5: Sure? Well? I have the opportunity to teach political science 76 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 5: at Charlton State University in Texas. So we're in central Texas, 77 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 5: about an hour and a half from Dallas Fort Worth. 78 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 5: So we've got a good combination, good mix of progressive, conservative, 79 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 5: moderate students, and it's just a really interesting time in 80 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 5: my opinion to be teaching political science and engaging with 81 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 5: different civil society groups. We try to run different civic 82 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 5: education and engagement programs in central Texas. So just very 83 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 5: unique time in my opinion, and to be thinking about 84 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 5: these topics. 85 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely so. Did you happen to hear what the 86 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 2: first guest was? What we chatted about during the. 87 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 5: Yes and real quick if I may just a thought 88 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 5: about the Monroe Doctrine, and obviously people are going to 89 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 5: interpret it in different ways. I would suggest that, you know, 90 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 5: one interpretation when President Monroe advances it for the first 91 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 5: time is actually, I mean, there's a might makes right interpretations, 92 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 5: But that's not the only way that you have to 93 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 5: see it, because I think in the early nineteenth century 94 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 5: it gets presented, you know, for the first time America 95 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 5: as a young nation, a republic, and the idea that 96 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 5: the republic has to defend itself from either monarchies or 97 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 5: dictatorships like Russia, like other countries at the time, I 98 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 5: think is on some people's minds. So it doesn't necessarily, 99 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 5: in my opinion, have to be a mite makes right. 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: You based it on an asyn nation has a right 101 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 2: to defend itself and this is this is a way 102 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 2: of defending yourself by by giving yourself safety buffer. 103 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 5: Well, and this is where I would agree with you 104 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 5: and just say, you know, you ask just how much 105 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 5: cocaine was coming through Venezuela every year, and you're talking about, 106 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 5: you know, two hundred metric tons, and so you know, 107 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 5: does the UN Charter, you know, which is well, you know, 108 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 5: it's written after the Second World War. Does the United 109 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 5: Nations Charter say that nations have the right to defend themselves? 110 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 5: It does, you have to be under attack. And so 111 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,720 Speaker 5: people are going to ask, what was Venezuela attacking us? 112 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 5: And I think the Trump administration is saying, you know, 113 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 5: two hundred metric tons of you know, cocaine and other 114 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 5: drugs to be passing through the country, much of that 115 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 5: on the way to the US. You know, we have 116 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 5: we have to deal with that somehow. And so there's 117 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 5: robust discussions that are taking place with appropriate, what what's 118 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 5: not appropriate. But I think it's a deeper conversation and 119 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 5: maybe been some of the good folks you know who 120 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 5: are calling in, and I respect their opinions, of course, 121 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 5: but there's there's some there's some dimensions to this that 122 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 5: are I think worth exploring. 123 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: Okay, it could be a really interesting legal case because 124 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 2: it may boil down to does dealing lots lots of 125 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: drugs to a country to get sending drugs into a country? 126 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 2: Is that an attack in terms that would justify what 127 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 2: happened to do to kidnap the president and I and 128 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,239 Speaker 2: I wonder if it were the other way around. Let's 129 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: just say our president they perceived that our president was 130 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: doing something that was attacking them. How would we feel 131 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: if this country kidnapped our president? President would where do 132 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: we go? Yeah, we get it. They have the right 133 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: to defend themselves, no problem. I don't think so well. 134 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 5: Sure, And I hear you, And you know that question 135 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 5: of which legal authority are you talking about? You know, 136 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 5: the UN Charter? Are you talking about actual law governing 137 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 5: in the international arena? I really appreciated our previous discussion, 138 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 5: so I would say, in addition to legal authorities, you 139 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 5: know that question of national interest might also be coming 140 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 5: into play. I mean, just to take this example, if 141 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 5: China decide, excuse me, if Mexico decided they want to 142 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 5: join a military alliance with China, even if it's completely voluntary, 143 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 5: you know, could could the US allow, based on its 144 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 5: national interest, for such an alliance to take place on 145 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 5: its southern border? So sometimes people who study politics, and 146 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 5: I mean, I hear you, because it's in many ways 147 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 5: the challenging legal case to make. But some political scientists 148 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 5: will say, in addition to the law, you also have security, 149 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 5: which is kind of more fundamental sometimes, and if it's existential, 150 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 5: sometimes you act first and you ask about the justification 151 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 5: maybe a little later. 152 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, but this was no existential. 153 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 5: Well, well, a lot of people would say, if you know, 154 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 5: more people have died from from drug overdoses than than 155 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 5: died in the Vietnam War. So I mean it's getting serious. 156 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 5: You know, whether we say existential or you know, whether 157 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,119 Speaker 5: whether we say it's just, you know, a very bad situation. 158 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 5: Let me ask you, are you kind of objecting because 159 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 5: you feel like it's unprecedented and the US hasn't done 160 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 5: anything like this before. 161 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: You Actually you're not objecting that much. I think it 162 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: was it was a good thing. 163 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 5: Well, some people are saying, you know, there's more drugs 164 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 5: that go through Columbia, more drugs that go through Mexico, 165 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 5: So why do we kind of get into it with 166 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 5: those countries. And what's interesting to me is just, yeah, 167 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 5: there's more drugs coming through those countries. Their governments, though, 168 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 5: seem to be more in line with partnering and working 169 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 5: to address the problems, whereas I think Maduro not only 170 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 5: was snubbing the US and saying I'm not gonna cooperate 171 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 5: it anyway, he was opening the country to Russian influence, 172 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 5: to Chinese influence. 173 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: So that's problematic, and that's one of the reasons I 174 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: don't have a problem with this one. Really, it's where 175 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: we get when we get I'm talking in general, and 176 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: when you talk about national interests, I don't see how 177 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: national interest really measures up to be a reason to 178 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: do something like this. National interest could be so many things, 179 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: and in a country could call anything national interest. Certainly 180 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: Putin has national interest in attacking Ukraine. 181 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 5: Well, and this is what's so interesting. I agree with 182 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 5: you that this is very interesting. And I am no 183 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 5: defender of Putin as somebody originally from Poland, I would 184 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 5: ask the same question, not in terms of law or morality, 185 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 5: but just in terms of power. And I mean, Ukraine 186 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:59,439 Speaker 5: has heroically resisted that invasion and it's just inconceivable that 187 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 5: can imagine and what you know that brave people is 188 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 5: going through. At the same time, you're talking about Ukraine 189 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 5: possibly joining the military alliance, the most powerful military alliance 190 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 5: in history, NATO on Russia's border. 191 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was really no plans to do that, as 192 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: you know, really, Oh no, no, no, those plans were 193 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: very much being talked about. 194 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 5: Absolutely you talked to some of the policymakers there and Zelenski, 195 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 5: I mean, to this day is saying that this is 196 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 5: Ukraine's future. It should be Ukraine's choice, and in my opinion, 197 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 5: in theory, it should be every country gets to decide 198 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 5: for itself. But how do you also address, you know, 199 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 5: the security concerns or questions that great powers have. I mean, 200 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 5: this gets very thorny and complicated for me. And it's 201 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 5: not always a black, black and white issue. I mean, 202 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 5: I hear you. When it comes to there needs to 203 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 5: be a specific legal rationale. I don't know that the 204 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 5: Trump administration has settled as of right now on one 205 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 5: clear legal rationale. I mean, this is happening so quickly, 206 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 5: so I do hear you in your callers, just. 207 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: So you know, just so everyone knows if you just 208 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 2: joined us. When it comes to this US action in Venezuela, 209 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,679 Speaker 2: it seems like Maduro gave us a gift by selling 210 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: drugs and gave a perfect, perfect excuse for a US 211 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: beneficial real geopolitical realignment to keep oil in our sphere, 212 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: our fhere of influence, keep it away from Putin and 213 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 2: go ahead and help out the country. Give them an 214 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: economic boost, get rid of a bad guy. Definitely. I 215 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: feel like the it's a net gain, it's a net win. 216 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 2: And yeah there might have been there are people complaining, 217 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: but some of those people complaining are Rush and China, 218 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: which of course they going to do. And yes, some 219 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 2: allies complain, but overall I am I'm pretty good with it. 220 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: But then when we get down to Greenland, then I 221 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: have a problem. I don't see how you justify that. 222 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 2: What do you say to Denmark it's in our national interest? 223 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: Give it to us. I have to take a break 224 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: and we'll continue and when as soon as we come back, 225 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: we'll go to Eric and Maine. It's WBZ. 226 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on Bibs, Boston's news Radio. 227 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: Thanks for being with us. In case you just jined. 228 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:26,199 Speaker 2: We're speaking with guests Bocabala regarding the US action of Venezuela, 229 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 2: and we have a couple of folks on the phone 230 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: here that we should get to. Are you ready, bo, 231 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 2: Here we go, Eric, Yes, thanks again? Yeah, Eric and Maine. 232 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 7: Hi, Hey, good evening. How you doing. I'm very happy. 233 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 7: There's two things we've I was aircrew with the Navy, 234 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 7: flying for twenty four years. I'm retired from the Navy now, 235 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 7: and I remember back in two thousand and five we 236 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 7: took prisoners back into the US when we sunk their 237 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 7: boat full of six tons of cocaine. I had to 238 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 7: take two hundred pounds of cocaine back into the US 239 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 7: as evidence. But we've been doing this whole sinking boat 240 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 7: full of cocaine for a long time. It's just it's 241 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 7: getting more advertisement now, obviously because of the person in 242 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 7: the White House, while we've been doing it for a 243 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 7: long time. Number Two, I'm very glad we're not going 244 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 7: to have blackjack bombers sitting in Venezuela with nuclear weapons 245 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 7: from Russia anymore, because if you remember, every time, every 246 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 7: time Russia wants to do something like going to Crimea 247 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 7: in twenty thirteen, they preceded it with putting blackjack bombers 248 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 7: with nuclear weapons in Venezuela and saying hey and using 249 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 7: it as a poker chip and then saying, oh, if 250 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 7: you give us Crimea, we'll pull those blackjack bombers with 251 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 7: nuclear weapons back out of Venezuela. So they just kind 252 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 7: of throw them in there using a poker chip, and 253 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 7: then our president, whoever it is, at the time says, oh, look, 254 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 7: I got Russia to pull out of Venezuela, you know, 255 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 7: and we'll just give them Crimea. We'll give them whatever 256 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 7: they want, but we're not going to be able to 257 00:14:58,360 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 7: do that. They're not going to be able to pull 258 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 7: that ar anymore. And basically that's what was taken away 259 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 7: from Russia. And this is more about taking poker chips 260 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 7: and power away from Putin dictator who has political prisoners. 261 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 7: And you know, everyone seems to forget that in China 262 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 7: and Russia and these other countries. You can't hold this 263 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 7: sign up saying I hate the government like you can here. 264 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 7: You go to jail, and you don't want to be 265 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 7: in those countries. And and I don't know, I I 266 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 7: don't know if they've been desensitized or what. But I'm 267 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 7: very glad we are not going to see blackjack bombers 268 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 7: with nuclear weapons in Venezuela ever. Again, it's a huge 269 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 7: point and it has happened multiple times. And I'm all 270 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 7: about the Monroe doctrine. And that's why, because I don't 271 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 7: want to be nuked. 272 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 4: Okay, sorry, that's for me that way. 273 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 2: That's excellent. Thank you for being so crystal clear, I 274 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: agree hundred percent. That's another reason why I'm I feel 275 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 2: this is on that gain. 276 00:15:57,720 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 7: Thanks Eric, Well, we're just not students. 277 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: Oh sorry, I thought you would, Dyneaic. I apologize so 278 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: bo thoughts on that. 279 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean, really, I'm learning from these insightful 280 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 5: comments that your listeners are bringing to the table. I agree. 281 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 5: And that geopolitical dimension I think is key. It's salient, 282 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 5: and it's somewhat distinct right conceptually from the legal rationale. 283 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 5: So we know that the Justice Department, as the Trump 284 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 5: administration has pointed out, has these indictments against Maduro and 285 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 5: the Maduro operation. Was that entirely necessary? Even that there's 286 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 5: a sort of parallel rationale that nations rely on, in 287 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 5: this case keeping adversarial influence out of your sphere of influence. 288 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 5: I mean, that can be debated, but I agree with 289 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 5: your listener there, and I think you and I were 290 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 5: getting at this that whatever one thinks of the legal rationale, 291 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 5: there are these security considerations. Considerations. Of course, we call 292 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 5: that realism and foreign policy when what recognizes that power 293 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 5: continues to shape and be a part of the kinds 294 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 5: of relations that nations have. So I agree, I must 295 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 5: say great, great listeners calling into your show. I feel like, Eric, 296 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 5: that was. 297 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 2: A really solid call. Once again, there are rules, but 298 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 2: sometimes the stakes are so high that you got to 299 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 2: step on some toes. I can't believe I'm saying that 300 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: because I'm such a rule we have Steven Cambridge say 301 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: had to bow political scientists and gentlemen bo good evening up. 302 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 6: I would assume I have two points that I'd be 303 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 6: interested in your response to. The First is I would 304 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 6: assume everybody must give the president without being really who 305 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 6: the man is or who the woman could be a 306 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 6: point for not only the boldness, but for having executed 307 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 6: this with what I believe is minimum to no loss 308 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 6: of life. Is that Yeah, I would assume everyone has 309 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 6: to give tremendous kudos, even if one disagreed with the policy. 310 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: That's right, But you know what, I do have a 311 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: question about that, who do you give the kudos to? 312 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: I kind of wonder who really whose idea was this? 313 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: For some reason, I can't see it being the president's idea. 314 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: I feel like there's some folks in a thank tank 315 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 2: who really are thinking about geopolitics, and I don't see 316 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: the president as having time or the personality to mull 317 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 2: over the nuances of this chess game. I feel like 318 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: someone's well telling them what to do, and he says okay, 319 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: and they say, you know you can you go ahead 320 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 2: and be you as long as you do what we say. 321 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 2: And I don't think that's I don't think that's a 322 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: new thing either, and I don't even know if it's 323 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: a bad thing. I just when it comes to giving kudos, 324 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: I wonder who the kudos really go to. 325 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,880 Speaker 5: Well, and let me say to the extent that there's 326 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 5: different leadership styles and so much of this is elaborative. 327 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 5: I agree with the point that in terms of the 328 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 5: execution here, I mean compare it to the Panama operation 329 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty nine where the US extracts and Oriega 330 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 5: twenty four US casualties, So not a single one here. 331 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 5: I feel like kudos first and foremost, you know, going 332 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 5: to the servicemen and women who are pulling off this 333 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 5: kind of operation and you've had you have the special 334 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 5: Delta Force, and then I would definitely agree President Trump 335 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,640 Speaker 5: is allowing people to you know, execute creatively and follow through. 336 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 5: And the Department of Defense, I'll mention Secretary of Headsets 337 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 5: and also you know, Bridge Colby, who's presented some of 338 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 5: these realistic ideas that the Department of Defense. To me, 339 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 5: it's a team effort and you know, our servicemen and 340 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 5: women really just stepping up in extraordinary ways. 341 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 6: Boh, I have one more question for you. My impression 342 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 6: is after some thought, but I am a layman, so 343 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 6: I don't know how valuable that thought is. That when 344 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 6: you start talking about international law, that is more a 345 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 6: matter of rhetoric than reality. I mean, is there really 346 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 6: such a thing as international law? 347 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: Really? When the chips are down, when push comes cheff, 348 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 2: who really pays attention to that? Well? 349 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 5: And I hear you on that, And I've actually gotten 350 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 5: into it a little bit with some of my conservative 351 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 5: friends because I feel like, overall you're right. I absolutely 352 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 5: agree with you. At the same time to sort of, 353 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 5: you know, think about things like you know, not torturing 354 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 5: or you know, minimizing, you know, when somebody's waving the 355 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 5: white flag. Over the centuries, we've had these these customs, right, 356 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 5: So the natural law in the works of theorists like 357 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 5: you know, Thomas Aquinas and the Grocious in the seventeenth 358 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 5: century are referring both to natural law and custom and 359 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 5: so yes, overwhelmingly I agree with you. Is there this 360 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,719 Speaker 5: concept out there that civilized people will look to minimize 361 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 5: casualties as this operation clearly do won't want to inflict cruelty. 362 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,159 Speaker 5: I mean, at the end of the day, I do 363 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 5: think that's the difference between the US and Nazi Germany. 364 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 5: And it's still trying to maintain that respect for the 365 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 5: dignity of human life in the fog of war, when 366 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 5: of course that can be very hard, and yeah, during 367 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 5: the wartime situation itself, the rules don't always apply. We 368 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 5: still make an effort though, maybe, and I say that 369 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 5: as somebody without military experience, so with all humility, but 370 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 5: maybe we still make that effort. 371 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, and thank you Steve. When we continue, 372 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: I hope you would think about this during the break 373 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 2: bow and comment on it. So this particular of Venezuelan operation, 374 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 2: clearly you can make a case for it. I wonder 375 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 2: you know the president is getting it's such a positive 376 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 2: thing for him. It went so well, and it makes 377 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 2: everybody forget about everything else. Like Epstein files, will will 378 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 2: political attention direction that this creates be a motivation to 379 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: go from country to country to country, even Greenland how 380 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 2: much of this is diversion from things like Epstein files, 381 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 2: et cetera. Because it went so well. If this was 382 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 2: like a Jimmy Carter in you know thing that was 383 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: a failure, well that would be it. But it wasn't. 384 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: It did so well, and everybody's got a warm and 385 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: fuzzy feeling about it. Don't you think he will just 386 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,639 Speaker 2: I'm asking you to answer this after what are the 387 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,719 Speaker 2: odds that he will continue, at least partly based on that? 388 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: It's a w b Z. 389 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. 390 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 2: Before we turn return to our political scientists guest on 391 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: the topic of the US action in Venezuela. I promise 392 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: to give you a real specific itemization of the hardware used, 393 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: because we don't really get that. You wonder was it 394 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 2: two airplanes, A couple of helicopters, will know, one hundred 395 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 2: and fifty aircraft. Let me break it down for you. 396 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 2: F twenty two Raptors, F thirty five Lightnings, F eighteen 397 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 2: super Hornets, B one bombers. They didn't hold much back. 398 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 2: They have electronic warfare plans called growlers, and they also 399 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: have a thing called the Sentinel. Which is an unmanned 400 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 2: craft that was used, and they have special operations helicopters, Apache, Chinook, 401 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 2: et cetera. Naval forces included guided missile destroyers and amphobeous 402 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 2: assault ships positioned for this, and special forces the Delta Force, 403 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: which is the Army Force and the one hundred and 404 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 2: sixtieth Special Ops Aviation Regiment called the night Stalkers for 405 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 2: the extraction. And intelligence got to have good intelligence to 406 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: do something like this. CIA team with inside sources, assets 407 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 2: within the government track Maduro and something called cyber Command 408 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 2: and space Command disabled the air defenses. And what was 409 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,959 Speaker 2: each craft used for. Well, the F twenty two is growlers, 410 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: et cetera. Went in to suppress air defense. The Venezuelans 411 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 2: had some Russian S three hundreds at least and probably 412 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 2: took those out B one barmbers and another just targeted 413 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 2: military installations. And for the extraction, he used them sixty 414 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 2: helicopters fly Fly, Real low and Real Fast inserted Delta 415 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 2: Force operators to seize Maduro. And then you had your 416 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: refueling tankers and your electronic warfare planes and other surveillance 417 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: aircraft for this to go. This movie is kind of 418 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 2: a miracle. I mean, even with the the Osama bin 419 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 2: laden extraction, it was much simpler and one of the 420 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 2: helicopters crashed. So this is absolutely stunning. And I would 421 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 2: point out this is what Putin tried to do with 422 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: Zelensky and failed, and so this must be a real 423 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: slap in the face to Putin. Also slapping the face 424 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: to Putin he had he was making deals with the 425 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: Maduro and I'm guessing those are off. So we go 426 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 2: right back to guess bo political scientists, what do you 427 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 2: think how much of future adventurism will be to keep 428 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: the attention off the negatives on the on the president 429 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 2: and have everybody feel warm and fuzzy about the United 430 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 2: States and and how good we are. 431 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, no, and great question. Let me say, I 432 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 5: agree with your points about Russia, and you know, Russia 433 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 5: attempting things like this and not executing operations, you know, 434 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 5: nearly to the same extent of of follow through. So 435 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 5: I do think, as you're asking about this divert attention 436 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 5: maybe from domestic issues that aren't as pleasant to think about. 437 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 5: I mean, I agree with the number of observers who've 438 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 5: pointed out and they're on the left they're on the right. 439 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 5: The release of the Epstein files could have been handled 440 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 5: much better. You've seen some, I mean some dissent between 441 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 5: you know, loyal followers of Donald Trump, like Congresswan Marjorie 442 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 5: Taylor Green and so. And I don't think there's a conspiracy, 443 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 5: to be clear. I think the amount of redactions that 444 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 5: are involved, you know, the Justice Department amending what it 445 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 5: intended to do based on just seeing how much pornography 446 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 5: would be released into the public square. But you still 447 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 5: have to explain and educate people as the sort of 448 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 5: the goals of a release are are shifting. So I 449 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 5: don't think the Venezuela operation was sort of carried out 450 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 5: in order to divert attention from that. I mean, is it? 451 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 5: Is it? 452 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 2: No? I don't either. I'm talking about going forward. This 453 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: one had a clear purpose and you can see why 454 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 2: timing was important. 455 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 5: Yes, So in terms of your saying adventures maybe abroad. 456 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 5: You know, are there people on the right in the 457 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 5: US who would like to see a return to manifest destiny. 458 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 5: I think there's a few, and I think you know, 459 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 5: to the extent that they're political, you know, do they 460 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 5: see a nationalist coalition as preferable than your generic democratic administration. 461 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 5: I think. So I don't see any evidence really that, 462 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 5: you know, Donald Trump is, you know, planning to ennex 463 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 5: whole countries. And I'll mention one conservative. He's a Trump 464 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 5: supporter who pointed out taking over Greenland would be a 465 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,719 Speaker 5: really bad idea. I mean his name is Steve Sailor, 466 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 5: and I mean he's really on the right. I disagree 467 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 5: with much of what he says, but as he you know, 468 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 5: shared his article today on the on the internet, just 469 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 5: pointing out, you know, Denmark is a NATO ally. You 470 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 5: don't do that to your ally. So, yes, Donald Trump 471 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 5: has critiqued NATO, but to try to take over you know, 472 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 5: territory that you know, Denmark I legally controls, I just, 473 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 5: you know, before we connect those dots, let's let's see 474 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 5: what happens. But I'm skeptical that sort of that's the 475 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 5: that's the trajectory here going forward. I think case by case, 476 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 5: Donald Trump, if anything, is pragmatic, evaluate situations by case, 477 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 5: and I think militarily taking over Greenland sounds sounds pretty nonsensical. 478 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: What is is, uh, the motivation to say those things? 479 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 7: Then? 480 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: Is it is? 481 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: It? 482 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 2: Is it just to mess with the press. Is it diversion? 483 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 2: He's really good at using the press by you know, 484 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 2: saying outrageous or extremish kind of things. What would be 485 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: the political purpose of saying that? 486 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 7: Well? 487 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 5: And people in discussing personal styles that leaders and presidents 488 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 5: have have certainly, I mean we all probably have a 489 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 5: personal style, and he certainly has his. And sometimes there's 490 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 5: serious statements and sometimes there's lighter statements. But let me 491 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 5: offer a different kind of scenario. We're there to be 492 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 5: a genuine, mutually agreeable commercial transaction of some kind where 493 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 5: the where the US to pay you know, Denmark and Greenland, 494 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 5: and amount that actually legitimately made people there happy. I 495 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 5: think that's probably a different scenario from military conquest. 496 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, if I have no problem buying it, maybe I 497 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: can get a decent flight to Greenland after that that'd 498 00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 2: be good. 499 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 5: Well, And I haven't been Rekyrbek, but of course sight 500 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 5: of the famous presidential summit there between Reagan and Gorbia 501 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 5: shop we'd like to go, so I have. But exactly 502 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 5: so you know, what are we talking about? And you know, 503 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 5: what are the different scenarios right now? It doesn't seem 504 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 5: as if you know, Denmark, I can't speak for the 505 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 5: people in Greenland, but that there's a lot of interest, 506 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 5: so I'll be curious to see how the negotiation unfolds. 507 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: Okay, Susan and Cambridge, you're gonna be next right after 508 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 2: this quick quick break on WBZ. 509 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on w b Z, 510 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: Boston's news radio. 511 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 2: Bradley Jay for Dan on that side tonight, Susan, thanks 512 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 2: for giving us a shout. You're on with Bokebala and 513 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: me and we're talking about the recent US action in Venezuela. Susan, 514 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: thanks for joining us. 515 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 4: Hi, Bradley, this isn't why I called, but just with 516 00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 4: regard to your prior conversation before the commercial. So we've 517 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 4: got people losing their health insurance, we've got a massive deficit, 518 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,960 Speaker 4: but somehow, you know, we would have the money to 519 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 4: pony up to buy Greenland. That seems a bit, you know, 520 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,120 Speaker 4: and it I do feel like there is a wag 521 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 4: the dog aspect to this, not not so much about Epstein, 522 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 4: but just about that. I think things are not going 523 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 4: that well domestically. Like I said, people are facing a 524 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 4: massive increase in health insurance premiums. Now the beginning of 525 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 4: the year, and I do feel like, yeah, just overall 526 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 4: domestically things are not you know, which was previously supposedly 527 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 4: you know, kind of his strong suit and what he 528 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,239 Speaker 4: ran on. But the reason I called, I want to 529 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 4: ask your guests, so with regards to you know, the 530 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 4: the drugs coming in from Venezuela, if that was really 531 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 4: you know, one of the primary motivation or whatever, then 532 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 4: why did Trump just pardon the former president of Honduras 533 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 4: who also flooded our country with drugs? 534 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 5: Well? And I think that's a great point, and it 535 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,080 Speaker 5: gets to you know, in some of these you know, 536 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:22,479 Speaker 5: foreign policy cases, is there is there some some some 537 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 5: case by case judgment. Can we always find a rule 538 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 5: that applies consistently? And so let me let me just 539 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 5: start and and I'll get to your excellent question with 540 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 5: with the the point many observers have made, which is, 541 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 5: you know, there's less drugs flow actually out of Venezuela 542 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 5: into the US then either Columbia or Mexico. And and 543 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 5: on that point, the reason as I see it, why 544 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 5: Venezuela was selected here is that you know, the Venezuelan 545 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 5: government under Maduro was far less cooperative than you know, 546 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 5: the Colombian government and the Mexican government. Now, do cartels 547 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 5: in Mexico have influence on the Mexican government. I'm not 548 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 5: an expert on that, but at least Mexico and Columbia 549 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 5: are making good face efforts, whereas Madua clearly was not 550 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 5: the individual that you mentioned. I haven't studied the case 551 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 5: in detail, so you know, I need to do some 552 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 5: more research myself. Are there sometimes secondary are there sometimes 553 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 5: secondary considerations? Are there things that we don't see as 554 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 5: part of the sort of overall landscape, And people get 555 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 5: frustrated sometimes if there's not a rule that's consistently applied, 556 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 5: and and to me that that's not necessarily disqualifying whatever's 557 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 5: being done. 558 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,719 Speaker 4: Or is it that Honduras doesn't have royal I mean, 559 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 4: maybe there is a rule, you know. 560 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,600 Speaker 5: Well, and that's fair, and that's fair. Look, and this 561 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 5: is part of the discussion, part of the equations. But 562 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 5: I'm going to pivot to what the And she's in 563 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 5: Venezuela right now. I think it's fair to say she 564 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 5: won the presidential election in twenty twenty four. She was robbed. 565 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 5: This is you know, Maria Abachado, winner of the Noble 566 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 5: Peace prize, so and we'll see exactly how she weighs 567 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 5: in on this situation. But over the last few months, 568 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,239 Speaker 5: as the US has been weighing in militarily, she has 569 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 5: been expressing a lot of hope and saying, you know, 570 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 5: as we see the pushback against the Maduro regime, people 571 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 5: in Venezuela have hope. So is there a lot of 572 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 5: oil there, yes, it were the proceeds from it going 573 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 5: to the Venezuelan people under Maduro probably not. If American 574 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,280 Speaker 5: companies go in there and help develop some of those resources, 575 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 5: are they owed anything, As you know, the Venezuelan people 576 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 5: should benefit primarily. You know, to me, those are those 577 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 5: are complicated questions and the risk of misstepping on the 578 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 5: part of the US is great. At the same time time, 579 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 5: you know. 580 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 4: So far this administration has shown really no regard for 581 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 4: that opposition leader and her party. I mean, it really 582 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,879 Speaker 4: hasn't been part of the discussion so far. I mean, 583 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 4: he's just don't think no, he said we're running it. 584 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 4: He has not shown and or we're going to do 585 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,600 Speaker 4: you know, a remote sort of puppet. You know, they 586 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 4: seem to have shown no interest in bringing in the 587 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 4: opposition government. 588 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 5: There was that statement, we're running it. In my view, 589 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 5: that's probably not a long term statement. And I think 590 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 5: given the sort of critique that Trump and the intellectuals 591 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 5: around him have made of nation building, you know, to me, 592 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 5: it's not just not only not a long term statement, 593 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 5: it's not a medium term statement. I think in the 594 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 5: short term, the US runs things to guarantee security, and 595 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 5: then I'll be very disappointed if somebody like Maria Matchudo 596 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 5: does not have a prominent voice at the table and 597 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 5: we're not seeing a genuine democratic transition. I think a 598 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 5: lot of people will be disappointed. 599 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 2: I agree with you on that, Susan fantastic call and 600 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: great answer. So I didn't really address this with you. 601 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 2: I addressed it with Consuela Cruz the previous guests. Yeah, 602 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 2: no real plan now, and that is important because if 603 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 2: this goes south, then future adventurism will be a little 604 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 2: less easier to get out the ground. Do you see 605 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 2: a plan. I don't see a plan. And we heard 606 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 2: of all kinds of roadblocks a successful transition to a 607 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 2: United States friendly government, and if there's not a United 608 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 2: States friendly government, then this was all. 609 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 5: For not well. And I agree with you that and 610 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 5: forgive me after this segment. I just forgive me. It's 611 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 5: my fault, but I didn't plan the evening in the 612 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 5: right way, so I may have to duck out after 613 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 5: this statement. But I agree with you that just going 614 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 5: back to that question of are we going, you know, 615 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 5: case by case versus is there a consistent rule or play? 616 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,760 Speaker 5: And I do think what the Trump administration is clear 617 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 5: about is this is not nation building. There's a security 618 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 5: operation in the short term, and then we want there 619 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 5: to be an equitable distribution of resources and some semblance 620 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 5: at least of democracy for the Venezuelan people. So what 621 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 5: I think they want to avoid, but I think everybody 622 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 5: wants to avoid a Knox Boot has described some of 623 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 5: these security operations in his I think it's a wonderful book, 624 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 5: Savage Wars of Peace. Even some of the police operations 625 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 5: that the US has undertaken in the twentieth century. I 626 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 5: think of Haiti, think of Nicaragua. They are meant, you know, 627 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 5: they stretch for fifteen twenty years, and resentment builds and 628 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 5: it doesn't end up being I mean, sometimes it's an 629 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 5: effective police operation, so to speak, but there's all kinds 630 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 5: of unintended consequences. So I think you're right. My guess 631 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 5: is the president does not want to be there for 632 00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 5: fifteen twenty years. And you know, but how do how 633 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 5: you respond to unexpected circumstances, how you adjust and adapt? 634 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 5: You know, that's the whole challenge, right. 635 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 2: Very very briefly, one more question. You know what they 636 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 2: say about a vacuum, and you know what happened in Iraq? 637 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 5: Well, what is exactly and. 638 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,759 Speaker 2: If we don't, you cannot remotely prevent that? 639 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 5: You can't, You're right, well, and this is where and 640 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 5: some of the nationalist intellectuals, and this is you know, 641 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 5: Bridge Colby at the Department of Defense really stands out 642 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 5: to me. He's written at National Review. And I'm encouraged 643 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 5: by the fact that President Trump was against that intervention. 644 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 5: And from the beginning, the argument was why go in 645 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 5: to Iraq remove Saddam Hussein when you know democracy in 646 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:50,839 Speaker 5: that country will align Iraq more closely with Iran. And 647 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 5: I think part of the sort of success Trump has 648 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 5: had electorally in the US was saying, we don't necessarily 649 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,480 Speaker 5: want to do something like that. So I don't, yes, 650 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 5: the vacuum, you know, nature of whorse it, you know, 651 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 5: somebody is gonna come in and who's coming into into 652 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 5: Venezuela if we're not careful about cultivating partners and investing 653 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 5: in power centers, uh that that you know are are 654 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 5: reasonable ones, And then then I think you're right. You know, 655 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,120 Speaker 5: there there could be a significant problem. But maybe the 656 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 5: sort of majority of Venezuelan there's celebrations that we've seen, 657 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 5: uh after after the removal of Dureau. Hopefully the majority 658 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 5: of people there are not in favor of an extremist government. 659 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 5: I don't I don't think they are. So if there's 660 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 5: a moderate regime that can be supported, you know, maybe 661 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,320 Speaker 5: that's sort of the least bad outcome. 662 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 2: So great, you're a great guest, A really great guest. Doctor. 663 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 2: I should have said doctor in the beginning. Bokabala, I apologize, 664 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 2: not at all. Fantastic guess. I hope to have you 665 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,399 Speaker 2: on another time soon. Thanks to way Street. 666 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:07,839 Speaker 5: I'd love to do it. Thank you for having me. 667 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 5: Have a nice set me right on. 668 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 2: Now. Do you know what algorithmic pricing is, Well, it's 669 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 2: kind of searche pricing, but kind of more than that. 670 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:22,320 Speaker 2: With algorithmic mi pricing, you can be charged a different 671 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: amount depending on who you are. You can be a 672 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 2: different amount for the same thing as the person behind 673 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 2: you if they know who you are. Are you in 674 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,600 Speaker 2: favor of that? It's w busy