1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Foston's new radio. 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: Thank you el It's Bradley Jay and for Dan on 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: night Side, I'll tell you a little something about me 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 2: you don't know which is relevant to our next topic. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: And guest. Right, when I got out of high school 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 2: early like at seventeen, I went to the Conquered Hospital 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,240 Speaker 2: School for Operating Room Technicians and I became an OI 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: tech of scrub tech and some of the operations I 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: did included neurosurgery. I've actually participated a number of times 10 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: in brain surgery. It's weird to say, it is absolutely true, 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 2: and I was only eighteen nineteen maybe nineteen at the time. 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: And the reason I bring this up is sometimes during neurosurgery, 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 2: the patient is a whig and they do a thing 14 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 2: called mapping, where the neurosurgeon will apply a mild electrical 15 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: current to various areas in the brain so he knows 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: what's going on where he's working and doesn't really move 17 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: a part of the brand that might be important, for example. 18 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 2: And sometimes that mild electrical current will stimulate music. People 19 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 2: will hear music. Sometimes it will be old factory and 20 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: they'll smell things hear things, including music in a different area, 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 2: and that kind of points to how important music is 22 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: to It's probably more important than we think that. There 23 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: might even be an evolutionary benefit to being into music. 24 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 2: There may be more to music than just going out 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: on Friday and drinking beer and seeing a band. It's 26 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: maybe way more important than we realize. And so we're 27 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: going to talk to a gentleman who has written a 28 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: book on the topic, names Robert Robert to Torre From 29 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 2: Perception to Pleasure, The Neuroscience of Music and Why We 30 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 2: Love It. I have also watched Robert's Ted Talk. I'm 31 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: very interested in this topic and I have a lot 32 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: of questions to answer, ask excuse me, and get answered. 33 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: I don't know how long this will come. It may 34 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: not go a whole hour. We'll just go the stuff 35 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 2: I want to know and I want you to know 36 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: as well. We'll just see how long it takes. So 37 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Robert. 38 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: Hello, Bradley. 39 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: It's good to hear your voice. I've heard it and 40 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 2: I saw you on that Ted Talk. I appreciate that. 41 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit about you. 42 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, people often ask me, you know, how do 43 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: I get into this study? Of music from a neuroscience perspective. 44 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,519 Speaker 1: And the reason actually goes right back to Boston where 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 1: you are is. I was a student at Boston University 46 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: back in the nineteen seventies, and I was always sort 47 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: of a nerdic kid and wanted to do science. But 48 00:02:54,760 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: you know, when I became an adolescent, like so many teenagers, 49 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 1: I was just you know, completely blown away by music. 50 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: I started listening to music and I couldn't believe what 51 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: it did to me, what it did to my body, 52 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: what it did to my brain. 53 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: And so you referred to the music you were listening 54 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: to at the time as mediocre rock and rock music. 55 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I was listening to you know, Iron Butterfly 56 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: and this kind of thing just not you know, very sophisticated. 57 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: And you know, one day, somehow I cut my hands 58 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: on a piece of on a record, you know, a 59 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: vinyl record of a piece by Bella Bartalk, Hungarian composer 60 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: from mid twentieth century. I had never even heard of 61 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: this guy. I had no idea what to expect, and 62 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: I put it on and I was just mesmriz. I 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: was just you know, I couldn't believe that such a 64 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: thing existed, So When I went to university to be you, 65 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: I enrolled in PSI, yes, and I also enrolled in music. 66 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: And I actually did two degrees simultaneously. And that was, 67 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: you know, very formative because I realized that, well, I 68 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: learned a lot about music, but I also realized that 69 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: scientific approaches to complex things in the world, whether it 70 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: be other planets or you know, the music inside our heads, 71 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: is really a very powerful way to look at things. 72 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: So I decided, okay, I'm a better scientist and I'm 73 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: a musician, to be perfectly honest, and therefore I embarked 74 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 1: on really trying to understand, you know, what is it 75 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: about music? 76 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: Why? 77 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: Why does it even exist? You know, it's just a 78 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: pattern of sounds. Why do people you know, could go 79 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: crazy over it and pay a lot of money to 80 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: listen to it? And why has it existed, you know, 81 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: in human societies, way back into realistic times. 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: I know you have some thoughts on it, and I 83 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: have constructed some thoughts on it as well. We'll get 84 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 2: to all of that now. I'd like to I always 85 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: like to involve the folks listening, our friends out there 86 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: listening at six, one, seven, two, five thirty, and I 87 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: am of the belief that not only does music psychically 88 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,359 Speaker 2: make you feel good, but can actually engage the mind 89 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:23,119 Speaker 2: body connection and make you physically feel better as well. 90 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: And so for the audience, I don't like to I'm 91 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 2: sorry to call you an audience for my For you, folks, 92 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: is there a song that actually makes your you love 93 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 2: it so much, it makes your body feel better, you 94 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: feel more relaxed or fulfilled or something serene, excited, It 95 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: affects your actual body. I think maybe we all have that. Now, 96 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: let me ask you, Let me ask you some questions, sir. 97 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: Yes, how much. 98 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: Of the pleasure we get from musical is for music 99 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 2: is cultural? And how much hardwired in? How much are 100 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 2: we born with and how much do we learn from 101 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 2: our culture and our steroutics. 102 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is an excellent question. So basically, we're 103 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: born with the capacity to enjoy music. But just like 104 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: with language, right, you're born with the capacity to speak, 105 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: But if you grow up in China, you'll end up 106 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: speaking Chinese, and if you grow up in Indonesia, you'll 107 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: speak Indonesian and so forth. So the culture that you're 108 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: in determines the type of music that is going to 109 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: make sense to you. Because you're exposed to it, you know, 110 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: very early, even I would say perhaps you know, before 111 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 1: you're born, you can hear rhythms, you know, right through 112 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: your mother's belly. And then once you're born. You know, 113 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: people sing to babies. This is a very common thing. 114 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: Many moms and dads, you know, sing to babies. Do 115 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: you people you hear that music? 116 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 2: Do you think that people actually start to form their 117 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 2: musical taste even before they're born from what they hear 118 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: their parents listening to. 119 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe slightly, there might be some you know, some 120 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: early traces that are laid down in the developing brain 121 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: of the fetus. Hearing developed somewhere around the seventh month 122 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: of gestation, something like that seventh rate, so it's fairly late, 123 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: but you know, you've got a month or so when 124 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: you can hear mostly the bass sounds because you know, 125 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: the amniotic fluid is it's an insulator, so you wouldn't 126 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: hear much, but you would hear bass sounds therefore rhythms. 127 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: So that's sort of interesting. But the majority is, you know, 128 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: something you learn once you're out in the world, and 129 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: so that that becomes like the grammar of your musical system. 130 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: You don't have to go to school. 131 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 2: For it, right, And I bet it baby, I mean 132 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: a a baby before it's born maybe doesn't hear the 133 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: music so much. But if a mother goes to a 134 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 2: concert and the bass in the drum is really loud, 135 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: and you know how you can feel it in your body, 136 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 2: I bet you the belly kind of access up speaker 137 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: and causes waves in the amniotic fluid that the baby 138 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 2: can actually feel, even if the baby can't hear it. 139 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no that I think that's been demonstrated. Also, 140 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: the mother's voice definitely is perceived. In fact, a newborn 141 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: infant will orient more to its mother's voice than to 142 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: another woman's voice, like just about from birth onwards, which 143 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: means that it has learned something about the quality of 144 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: the features of that voice, and some of those features 145 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: might be musical features, you know, the prosody of the voice, 146 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,439 Speaker 1: the melody of the voice, the timber of the voice. 147 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: Have there been any experiments done to establish how much 148 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: is cultural and how much is wired in. 149 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: Well, like I said, it's it's not about assigning a percentage. 150 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: It's like one hundred percent hard wired and one hundred 151 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: percent cultural in the sense that if we didn't have 152 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: the hard wiring, we would we would not respond to music, 153 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: or we'd be incapable of responding to music. 154 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: I guess which which really we respond to? Though? Is 155 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: all cultural, right, because exactly the time signatures in Indian music, 156 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: meaning from India, are way different and a lot of 157 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 2: times they don't doesn't resonate with Western listeners at all. 158 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: Correct, Yeah, correct. There are many many cultures that use 159 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 1: very complex timing structures. African music, Indian music, the music 160 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: of the Balkans, you know, in Eastern Europe, they use 161 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: very complex time signatures and complex rhythms, and the people 162 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: who grow up in those cultures really have no trouble 163 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, out of seven eight or eleven eight measure, 164 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: whereas most Western musicians would have trouble with that unless 165 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 1: they're really skilled jazz musicians. Some jazz musicians can can 166 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: handle that. So this is all culturally learned and therefore 167 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: it's one hundred percent culture. And yet if we didn't 168 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: have the brain to support that capacity, you know, it 169 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't happen. Therefore it's also one hundred percent brand. 170 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 2: Right. Oh, we'll continue with our guests Robert Zatori and 171 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: talk about the things addressed in his book, Perception of Pleasure, 172 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: The Neuroscience of Music and Why We Love It. In 173 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 2: a moment on WBZ, You're on night Side with Dan 174 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. It is Nightside with 175 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 2: Dan Ray. Bradley j for Dan, and we're with Robert 176 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: Zattori and his book is Perception to Pleasure, The Neuroscience 177 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: of Music and Why We Love It. I am curious, sir, 178 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: is there an evolutionary Do you notice an that maybe 179 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 2: evolutionarily our ability to appreciate music or has helped us, 180 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 2: has helped us get to the top of the food chain. 181 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a question that's hard to answer. So 182 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: because you know, we can't go back in time and 183 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: look at what was going on in ancient humans. But 184 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 1: what we can do is look at archaeology and what 185 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: we find is that humans were making complicated musical instruments 186 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: forty years ago. 187 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: What was the first instrument that was not a drum? 188 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 2: Was it a flute? 189 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: Flutes have been found that are made out of the 190 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: bones of birds, for example, with very precisely drilled holes 191 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: to be able to play scales. And this is amazing 192 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: because the instruments that were found. Some of them, at 193 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: least some of them were found in China. Some of 194 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: them have been found in what is now Germany. And 195 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 1: during this time that part of Europe was under glaciers. 196 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: So you know, people living in these areas were not 197 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: exactly having an easy time of it, but they devoted 198 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: a lot of time and resources to making these instruments, 199 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: which would have been difficult to make. It must have 200 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: been therefore very important for them in some way. It 201 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: must have had some function that was essential. And I 202 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: think it's the same function that it plays today. Right, 203 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: we play music for every important event or a funeral. 204 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 2: Right. I have a theory I'll get to. But before 205 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 2: I do get to that, you mentioned that the holes 206 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 2: were precisely drilled. So they must have been drilled precisely 207 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,239 Speaker 2: for a reason. And it must be that that humans 208 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 2: like these particular sounds of this note or this ratio 209 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 2: of this note to this note. Yes, somehow creates more 210 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 2: dopamine than and the listener than some other notes that 211 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: don't go together as well. Is there some magic combo 212 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: of or magic notes or magic combination of notes that 213 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 2: for some reason resonates with the human brain the human 214 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 2: body to create more dopemine than others. 215 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I wouldn't say it's magic. I would say 216 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:31,479 Speaker 1: it's physics. So tones that are related by their frequency 217 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: ratios are very commonly found across all human cultures. So 218 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: the octave, for example, anyone who plays music knows that 219 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: a tone that's an octave above another tone is twice 220 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: the frequency. If you talk about a perfect fifth, this 221 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: is you know, what I learned in my music theory 222 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: classes a perfect fifth, it's a ratio of three to 223 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: two and so on up the scale. These are very 224 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: simple ratios of frequency, and it's just the physics of sound. 225 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: They're present in sound in the environment. It's not it 226 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: isn't at all magic. It's really just the way that 227 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: objects vibrate. Now, having said that, what happens is across 228 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: different cultures you can pick different ratios. So different systems 229 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: in different parts of the world might use different musical 230 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: intervals different scales because they, for whatever reason they've decided, Okay, 231 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: I'm going to pick this more complex interrol and somewhere 232 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: else are going to pick a simpler interal. But there's 233 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:47,359 Speaker 1: still a commonality across them. And there's also some constraints 234 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: on the way our brain works. We can't necessarily perceive 235 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: differences in treaquency that are really really really tiny. It's 236 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 1: just our brains are not built for that. Therefore, rock 237 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: and roll, well, the steps in a scale right are 238 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: a certain size, it could be a little smaller. Like 239 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: we were mentioning Indian music before, some of those ragas 240 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: have within an octave, they have you know, eighteen or 241 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: nineteen tones. We only have twelve in Western music. But 242 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: there's no musical system that has you know, eighty five 243 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: tones interoctave because the differences would be way too small 244 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: we couldn't perceive them. So there are there are a 245 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: lot of things that are in common across different musical systems, 246 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: and it seems like, you know, a lot of it 247 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: has to do with the way our brain is structured. 248 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: We are hearing system is structured. 249 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to give you my theory for. 250 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: On Yeah, sorry, just to just to mention the same 251 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: Gohost for rhythms, Like rhythms are very commonly ratios across 252 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: all kinds of different cultures. 253 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 2: Okay, here's my theory on how music may have have 254 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: helped us evolutionarily get to the top of the pile 255 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: in the animal kingdom. As we've mentioned, music that resonates 256 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 2: with our particular culture creates a dopamine which makes us 257 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: feel good. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter to messenger in the brain, 258 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 2: and it plays crucial functions in a number of ways. 259 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 2: And one of those ways is it's a motivation and reward. 260 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: And it seems to me that music could have been 261 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: used as a reward for completing a task or doing 262 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 2: along with a task that would make us want to 263 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: do that task, something that might be otherwise unpleasant. It 264 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: might motivate us to, I don't know, build a home, 265 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 2: do things we wouldn't otherwise do, which would be evolution beneficial. 266 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: Does that makes sense? 267 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: We sure it makes sense. So we've done a whole 268 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: lot of research on music and the reward system. In fact, 269 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: our laboratory was the one that discovered that dopamine is 270 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 1: released when you hear music that you really like. And 271 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: so that's a very powerful thing right there, because dopamine 272 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: is released with very important stimuli in the environment. If 273 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: you're hungry and you smell food, your brain will release 274 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: dopamine saying oh, there's something really good out there, I 275 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: need to get it. And the same for music. Right, 276 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 1: So music already has that ability to engage the reward 277 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: system and to make people feel good, and that's a 278 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: way also to modulate people's moods. And every musician, if 279 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 1: you talk to them when they play music, if you 280 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: ask them, well, what are you doing, they often will say, well, 281 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: I'm trying to communicate a certain mood. I'm trying to 282 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: make people feel good, or maybe I'm trying to make 283 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 1: people feel sad, or maybe I'm, you know, trying to 284 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: make people feel angry if it's a I don't know, 285 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: a protest song. But all of these mood states and 286 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: emotional states, a lot of them have to do with 287 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: the dopamine system and reward So coming back to the 288 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: evolutionary scenario, it's really not impossible to think that if 289 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: you have a group of people playing music, they're going 290 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 1: to feel better, right, and they're going to feel better 291 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 1: about each other. There's going to be a social cohesion 292 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 1: that happens when they play music together, when they sing together, 293 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: when they dance together, when they clap their hands together. 294 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: Dopamine seems key to this whole thing, and a courage 295 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 2: to me to ask you the question, can you just 296 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 2: buy dopamine dopamine? Is it something that is produced synthetically, 297 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: and can you get a prescription for dopamine? 298 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: Well, if you have Parkinson's, yes, your doctor will give 299 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,000 Speaker 1: you a prescription for something called el dopo, which is 300 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 1: the precursor to dopamine. 301 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 2: See, I didn't know if he's something you could synthesize. 302 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 2: Thank you for that. And you mentioned Parkinson's. Yeah, I 303 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 2: saw another dead dots on the same This is super 304 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: interesting on the same topic. Is there's a man with 305 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 2: Parkinson's and it showed a video and he walked in 306 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: a halting way, very unsteady to keep stopping, but when 307 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 2: music was played he was able to dance completely smoothly. 308 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 2: I bet you have an explanation for that. 309 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: Yep, yep. So that goes back to dopamine. So Parkinson's 310 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: is a disorder where the dopamine neurons have largely died off. 311 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: There's still some left, but there's a huge reduction in 312 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: the transmission of dopamine in the brain. So that's why 313 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: they give you the drug. The right is to try 314 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: to help that. But because music releases dopamine naturally, when 315 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,560 Speaker 1: a patient with Parkinson's, here's music, their dopamine system and 316 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: what's left of it is act and that allows the 317 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: symptoms to go away. And there's another link here, which 318 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: is between music and movement. So in a lot of 319 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: our research, we found that the motor parts of the brain, 320 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: the areas that are responsible for movement, and the auditory 321 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: parts of the brain areas responsible for sound, are strongly 322 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: linked to each other. They're connected to each other in 323 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,560 Speaker 1: a special way, so that when you hear music, especially 324 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 1: if it's rhythmic music, your movements will be facilitated. This 325 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: is why we dance. 326 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 2: Right. 327 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: Whenever people hear, you know, rhythmic music, people start dancing 328 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: just spontaneously. It doesn't happen to a visual like no 329 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: one dances to a silent movie or even to like speech. Right, 330 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:50,479 Speaker 1: if you listen to a podcast, no one gets up 331 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: and starts dancing. But when people listen to music, their 332 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: motor system is suddenly jazzed up. So you know, this 333 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: has a lot of consequences. 334 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 2: Just for the record, everyone, I'm not known as a 335 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 2: great dancer. However, back in the day, I won a 336 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: contest contest doing the bump do you remember the bump. 337 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: I want a free drink doing the bump. I have 338 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: one final question for you, and that is is there 339 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: some let's say we define good music as that which 340 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: creates the most dopamine. Is there is there some music 341 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 2: that's simply better than other music when it comes to 342 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: dopamine creation. For example, does classical music create more dopamine 343 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: in general than say rock music or something else. 344 00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: Well, it's not really about the style or the genre 345 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: of music. I would say it's more about the structure 346 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 1: of the music, how complex it is, which can be 347 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 1: it can be complex in any in any style, and 348 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: also about how well it's played, how well the musician 349 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: has communicated that complexity in the music. So you know, 350 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: something that's played in a very boring way, it's just 351 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: not going to release as much soup. I mean as 352 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 1: a musician who knows how to how to turn a phrase, 353 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: how to you know prolong a certain cadence, a singer 354 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: who modulates her voice as she's singing to express some emotion. 355 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 1: All those features are going to be what is going 356 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: to make the music more more valuable in terms of 357 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: how your brain responds. If you hear music which is 358 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: very repetitive and very simple. That might be okay for 359 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: you know, kids to listen to because the kid's brain 360 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: does not yet developed, but it's really boring. No one wants, 361 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 1: no adult wants to hear that kind of music. And 362 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: even some pop music, you know, even people who like 363 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: pomp music, they get tired of it after a little while. 364 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: That's why you have the top forty list keeps rotating, right, 365 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: because the music is well, but some of it is. 366 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: But you know, if you go into music that's more complicated, 367 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: it could be consticle, it could be walk and roll, 368 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: it could be jazz, it could be you know, gospel, 369 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: it could be anything. 370 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 2: Right you need to get You may need to get 371 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 2: a different type of music to keep getting a dope. 372 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 2: I meane fixed. Robert Zetti, thank you so much for 373 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: being with us on w b Z. The book is 374 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 2: From Perception to Pleasure, The Neuroscience of Music and why 375 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: we love it. Thank you so much, sir, Thank you Bradley. 376 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 1: It was a pleasure of course, Bye bye. 377 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: I'm gonna before we go to the break, a little 378 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 2: bit of an observation, and that is there has to 379 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 2: be more to it than the sound. Let's take the 380 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 2: Taylor Swift. There has to be the the maybe the 381 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 2: identity with the identifying with that luminary and Bowie too. 382 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 2: Bowie spoke to people who were outcasts, and being associated 383 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 2: and known to be associated with that must add must 384 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 2: make you feel good and included and probably adds to 385 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 2: the dope Iamine shot you get. You know, that was 386 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: so much fun talking about Halloween. And I had to, 387 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,239 Speaker 2: you know, say goodbye to Wayne and a couple and 388 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: a couple other callers. I have time to, uh to 389 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 2: do that some more because it was so fun. So 390 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,199 Speaker 2: Halloween's upon us. Actually, strangely, Christmas has already upon us. 391 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 2: Have you seen Christmas decorations yet? 392 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: Oh? My god. 393 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 2: So we're gonna go back to the Halloween favorite. Think 394 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 2: of a great great Halloween movie. Your experiences a kid 395 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: and Halloween. Maybe you did some pranks or had some 396 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 2: done to you and Halloween candy? What did you like 397 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: and not like? Have you ever seen a ghost Halloween? 398 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: Somebody's asked me to put together a Halloween playlist. I 399 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 2: don't know what to do. I need your help. So 400 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 2: Halloween on w b Z