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Speaker 1: Do you want to be an American flowing out seven

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Speaker 1: hundred w LW. Could this idea help tackle the housing crisis?

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Speaker 1: You know, in a housing pinch, housing crunch, and the

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Speaker 1: idea is to stack housing on top of firehouses and

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Speaker 1: police stations. Council Member Mark Jefferies is here to discuss

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Speaker 1: on seven hundred WLW.

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Speaker 2: Mark, Good morning morning.

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Speaker 1: When I first heard this, I chuckle. It seems I

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Speaker 1: don't know why. It just seems silly, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Look, it's it's an interesting you got to think

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Speaker 2: out of the box given the crisis that we have

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Speaker 2: in housing. Look, this is happening throughout the country on

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Speaker 2: any you think about all the types of buildings that

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Speaker 2: any city built, Yes, firehouses, police stations, but wrec centers,

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Speaker 2: health centers, and we build the base, you know, the

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Speaker 2: first floor typically, and there's an opportunity to build a

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Speaker 2: couple of floors on top of that. And in a

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Speaker 2: lot of other cities that enables a lot more senior

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Speaker 2: affordable housing because the economics work. The city's already spending

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Speaker 2: money to build a foundation, so then a developer just

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Speaker 2: comes in and builds the housing on top. So I

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Speaker 2: think it's an opportunity. It's not going to solve our

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Speaker 2: housing crisis, but it's one way to add more units

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Speaker 2: for people who may want to live in a rangement

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Speaker 2: like that. Not for everyone, but some folks may very

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Speaker 2: well want to live in earth rec center.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a rec center. I mean you just mentioned police

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Speaker 1: and fire stations. I guess maybe the fire station or

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Speaker 1: police station, but particularly the fire station. One to me

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Speaker 1: is I mean, are you going to be people with

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Speaker 1: with that are hard of hearing or hearing issues seniors,

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Speaker 1: because it's it's I don't know about if I ever

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Speaker 1: a firehouse, I've been around, it's pretty loud.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny. I chuckle at that as well. But

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Speaker 2: if you think about I mean, I live in Clifton

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Speaker 2: on Love Low. People live literally right next to the

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Speaker 2: fire station. Over in Westwood, the firehouses people live across

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Speaker 2: or next to it. Most fire trucks these days, when

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Speaker 2: they leave, they don't put their sirens on right away anyway.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, I mean, yes, as I said,

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Speaker 2: it may not be for everyone, but I think it's

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to add more housing units. And here's the thing, Scott.

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Speaker 2: You know, we added about five thousand people in terms

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Speaker 2: of population, and we're only adding about one thousand units

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Speaker 2: net of new housing a year. And what that means

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Speaker 2: pure supply demand is that as a result, prices are

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Speaker 2: going up, and so we need more housing. And this

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Speaker 2: is a creative solution that we'll add more housing.

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Speaker 1: It's true, not just in Cincinnati but everywhere. The price

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Speaker 1: of housing, as we know, is going up exorbitantly these days.

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Speaker 1: I had a started earlier this morning at nine oh

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Speaker 1: six on the podcast, and the average price Mark Jeffreys

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Speaker 1: of a new car as just the average price now

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Speaker 1: has just passed the fifty thousand dollars mark. Let that's

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Speaker 1: sank in for a second. I mean that's car, but

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Speaker 1: housings right up there too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, Scott, the you know, the average

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Speaker 2: average age of a new home buyer is forty now.

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Speaker 2: Several years ago it was thirty something. In the sixties

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Speaker 2: it was twenty. I mean forty, and you take out

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Speaker 2: a thirty year mortgage here in your seventies, yep, before

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Speaker 2: you're even paying off the pain off the mortgage, and

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Speaker 2: the I mean, the American dream is just unattainable, Tony.

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Speaker 3: If you're younger, you feel like the screws.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm someone behind the baby boomer generation and

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Speaker 1: I feel like, wow, I'm getting squeezed. I can only imagine,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're a gen Z of millennials, but particularly

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Speaker 1: Gen z rs right now. But is this enough housing

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Speaker 1: units to make a dent in at Mark? I mean,

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Speaker 1: what are we actually talking about her?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as I preface, it's not gonna solve It's

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Speaker 2: going to take a lot of these things we legalize,

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Speaker 2: except for dwelling units. You remember that. I me's somebody

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Speaker 2: the other day who added it. They moved their parents

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Speaker 2: in their backyard and they absolutely love it. You know,

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Speaker 2: So you get incremental units. It's not gonna there's no

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Speaker 2: silver bullets that's going to solve all of the housing needs.

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Speaker 2: But look, if we can add a couple hundred units

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Speaker 2: as a result of this, when you when you think

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Speaker 2: about it, it's got you know, we sold the railroad.

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Speaker 2: We're you know, in principle, we've got twice as much

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Speaker 2: investment going into UH into city projects, including we're going

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Speaker 2: to build three new firehouses yep. And so over the

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Speaker 2: next couple of years we're going to be adding more

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Speaker 2: of the structure and and what I've asked the administration

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Speaker 2: to do is just look where does it make sense.

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Speaker 2: It may not make sense everywhere, but as they look

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Speaker 2: at their massive plan of where we're going to build

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Speaker 2: new units. I'll give an example in Oakley, we built

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Speaker 2: a new rec center there that would have been perfect.

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Speaker 2: You know, I know, I do know some people that said, well,

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Speaker 2: they would love to live on top of a rec

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Speaker 2: center and have a workout, they can go out and

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Speaker 2: you know, leave their kids at the daycare. You know,

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Speaker 2: again except for everyone.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, no, no, that seems like I mean that that

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Speaker 1: does seem like a good idea as long as you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious how many people are going to wind up

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Speaker 1: running these places. But how do you ensure that housing's

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Speaker 1: built on top of these new structures, Mark Jefferies is

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Speaker 1: generally affordable and not just a little less expensive than

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Speaker 1: luxury market rates.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the reality is, I think the economics

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Speaker 2: will be in principle much better because if you think

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Speaker 2: about let's say a rec center, the city is paying

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Speaker 2: to build the foundation, of paying to build the first floor,

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Speaker 2: and so that is stun costs for whatever developers and

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Speaker 2: developers paying for floors two three, four, five, or whatever

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Speaker 2: the case may be. And so in principle, what we've

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Speaker 2: seen around the country as a result is those units

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Speaker 2: are a lot more affordable, especially for seniors. I mean,

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Speaker 2: look to our earlier conversation, and these folks who are

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Speaker 2: in their sixties seventies and maybe have fixed income, and

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Speaker 2: prices are going up, rents are going up. They need

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Speaker 2: predictable places to live where they know exactly how much

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Speaker 2: the rent is going to be. And they can't, you know,

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Speaker 2: they don't have ciple income for a lot of folks

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Speaker 2: who are you know, in their seventies plus.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, I guess what happens is so the city

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Speaker 1: would buy property. Let's say they're can develop a rec

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Speaker 1: center like an Oakley if you could go in the

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Speaker 1: way back machine and do it there. All right, So

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Speaker 1: you own, you buy the land very expensive, You build

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Speaker 1: the structure as long as you're digging and developing. You

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Speaker 1: put down bigger footer so it can support a building

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Speaker 1: above a building. And now the developer goes, okay, good,

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Speaker 1: we're going to seal or rent these buildings out. Why

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Speaker 1: wouldn't they just try to get market rate, which is

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Speaker 1: going to be higher than a lot of people can afford.

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Speaker 1: Does that undermine the affordability issue?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that comes back to who

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Speaker 2: we partner with and what developer, and what the agreement

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Speaker 2: is with the developer. And that's where in the early

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Speaker 2: stages of this right, I've just asked the administration to

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Speaker 2: go out and identify where the buildings and then have

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Speaker 2: conversations with different developers, especially ones who build affordabllowses, and

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Speaker 2: I think that would be part of the agreement, is

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Speaker 2: that they're building it income restricted housing on these units.

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Speaker 1: Okay, he's got some member Mark Jeffries with a novel

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Speaker 1: approach here to help put a dent into the city's

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Speaker 1: housing crisis, and it's a crisis that's repeated in every

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Speaker 1: town across America, and saying, hey, you know, if the

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Speaker 1: city's going to start building new fire stations, police stations,

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Speaker 1: rec centers, things like that with the money from the

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Speaker 1: railway fund, well, then shouldn't we think about maybe putting

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Speaker 1: housing atop some of these buildings. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: many people want to live above a fire station or

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Speaker 1: police station, but rec centers and other buildings like that.

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Speaker 1: Possibly does this help put a small dent, But any

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Speaker 1: little bite of the apple, of course, is better than nothing.

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Speaker 1: I would say in that regard, though, how many other

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Speaker 1: cities are doing this and to what success?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I just saw an example yesterday of

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Speaker 2: a smaller city in Oregon, just outside like Portland or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and they build housing on top of the libraries in

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Speaker 2: town senior affordable, I think, below sixty percent average income.

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Speaker 2: There are several cities throughout the country that have done this,

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Speaker 2: and so it's not a completely unique approach. It's been

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Speaker 2: done before. It just hasn't been done here. And you know,

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Speaker 2: it'll drive some incremental units and definitely worth running the ground. Look,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it may not resolve everything, but it adds

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Speaker 2: a little bit. Then I think we're.

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Speaker 1: Much I don't think it's a I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: a game changer. Like, for example, the ordinance allows people

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Speaker 1: to take their freestanding garages and an accessory dwelling unit

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Speaker 1: and turn that into livable housing. That to me seems

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Speaker 1: a very novel approach. It's good for the homeowner, it's

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Speaker 1: good for tenants. It gets more doors out there that

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Speaker 1: we desperately need. But this is you know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: I guess it's a practical solution here. You're already going

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Speaker 1: to build these things, why not put some extra housing

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Speaker 1: above it and try to take some of that load off.

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Speaker 1: I mean, no, it makes sense. We're not just building

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Speaker 1: things to build them for housing. We're actually constructing things

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Speaker 1: that the community needs and then leveraging that because you're

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Speaker 1: already on the property in the building. I mean no,

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Speaker 1: it makes makes a lot of sense in a lot

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Speaker 1: of regards. Long we start small and see how it goes.

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Speaker 1: How many properties stop your head, mark, Jefferies, do you

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Speaker 1: see or how many developments out there that are pending

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Speaker 1: or on the horizon with this money? Now, do you

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Speaker 1: see where this would fit in any specific examples of

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Speaker 1: where might I do this? I mean, I do know.

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Speaker 2: We have at least three firehouses that we're going to

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Speaker 2: build in the next few years. I think it will

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Speaker 2: probably renovate a couple of health centers. Let me think

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Speaker 2: that the city has health centers as well. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're building the over Rye over the Ryane Rec Center now,

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Speaker 2: so that's kind of that ship has saaled, you know,

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Speaker 2: But you're probably talking about you know, over the next

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Speaker 2: ten years, maybe a dozen or so at most, where

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Speaker 2: this could apply, but you know, a dozen with maybe

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Speaker 2: fifty or fewer units on top, you know that's you

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Speaker 2: know that that's yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean you know you're spending the money already.

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Speaker 1: The bulk of money, as I said, is in the

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Speaker 1: structure buying the land and everything is like a little

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Speaker 1: gravy on top. And if you can maybe even make

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Speaker 1: some money off that too and put it back into

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Speaker 1: the fund, that's probably even better for taxpayer.

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Speaker 3: So it works out there.

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Speaker 1: Any of these areas you mentioned, and I know it's

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Speaker 1: like Frisco is doing it, you said Portland.

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Speaker 3: Are there any problems they've run into with this?

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Speaker 2: No? I mean, I think it really depends on having

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Speaker 2: a strong partner in a developer, and we have a

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Speaker 2: lot of local developers who produce especially affordable units, and

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Speaker 2: I think it's just making sure that you've got the

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Speaker 2: right partner who has a track record of, you know,

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Speaker 2: really caring about the types of units that they're developing,

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Speaker 2: and we've got a lot of those, so I think

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Speaker 2: that's that's really the key. And yeah, are.

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Speaker 3: There any liability issues there?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, police stations can be dangerous places,

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Speaker 1: firehouses are noisy, and you've got big equipment coming in.

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Speaker 3: There any any risk liability concern No, I mean I.

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Speaker 2: Think a lot of the places that do it, they've

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Speaker 2: got separate entrances. Obviously you're not going to be walking

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Speaker 2: through a firehouse or a police Sah.

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Speaker 3: Wait a minute, I don't get to slide down the pole.

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Speaker 2: What the hell exactly?

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Speaker 3: Late for work?

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Speaker 2: I mean a lot of people might feel a little

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Speaker 2: bit safer being on top of and as I said, look,

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Speaker 2: I mean see the noise issue. There are a lot

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Speaker 2: of places in the city where people live right next

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Speaker 2: to a firehouse that's sure station and uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: they they manage, and so I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: folks might feel particularly safe, you know, on top of

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Speaker 2: it or right next to the right.

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Speaker 1: And you also wanted to build this ordinance to to

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Speaker 1: you know, to future profits so someone doesn't come in

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Speaker 1: and overturn it. But you know, you're talking such a

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Speaker 1: small number of units, I can't imagine it being a problem.

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Speaker 1: What about the element though the contentious Southern Way Railway

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Speaker 1: Trust Fund, and of course that whole thing was was

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Speaker 1: was something can intentions to about what you're going to

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Speaker 1: do with the money. And for those who said, wow,

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Speaker 1: here we go, we're going to get off in the weeds.

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Speaker 1: Now we're going to take this money. It was destined

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Speaker 1: for infrastructure, our crappy roads and intersections, lights, public safety,

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Speaker 1: maybe some buildings, and now we're going to start building

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Speaker 1: housing out of it that has nothing to do with infrastructure.

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Speaker 1: That's a separate deal entirely. It feels like a legal

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Speaker 1: challenge may come out of this.

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Speaker 2: Well, what I would say is none of that. First

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Speaker 2: of all, we are legally prohibited from using that money

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Speaker 2: for anything other than current infrastructure. And so if we're

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Speaker 2: building new infrastructure, that money legally cannot be used. And

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Speaker 2: so it is purely for current infrastructure, So it's not

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Speaker 2: gonna be used to build housing on top of anything.

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Speaker 2: So that money would be a partnership with a developer.

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Speaker 2: The city is building the structure or renovating the structure,

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Speaker 2: and then on top the developer would cover that. And

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Speaker 2: it's your point that can be covered in the legal parameters.

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Speaker 2: I think the guardrails on the REIL funds are pretty clear.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha, So the rail money would be to build a

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Speaker 1: rec center, police station, fire station. If you decide to

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Speaker 1: do this element of adding on and building up, that's

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Speaker 1: a whole separate fund in different money that's going to

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Speaker 1: come in to do that, and it's going to be

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Speaker 1: in conjunction.

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Speaker 2: Then it's not city money. That would not be city money.

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Speaker 2: The city would not be spending a dime on that.

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Speaker 3: The developer would.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, gotcha, a private developer coming in and building housing

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Speaker 2: on top. Got it.

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Speaker 1: But again we'll see it's interesting. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: the developer doesn't go, Okay, fine, well we're already doing this.

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Speaker 1: We'll charge market rates. You're gonna have to put some

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Speaker 1: guardrails in there to make sure if you want to

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Speaker 1: do affordable housing or market rate housing, you then have

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Speaker 1: to instruct them saying, hey, look, you know, we'll do

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Speaker 1: this deal, but are you going.

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Speaker 3: To put caps in for how much they can charge?

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Speaker 1: But that kind of upends the free market because typically

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Speaker 1: someone can afford it if it's a nicer place and go, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want to live above a rec center, tender track.

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Speaker 1: Maybe more young urban professionals who are going to pay

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Speaker 1: top dollar for that. But that then frees up inventory

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Speaker 1: down the line a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think for you know, like we

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Speaker 2: have a lot of developers, like the model groups that

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Speaker 2: does development in and around of the line that does

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Speaker 2: a lot of affordable units. You know, developers like that

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Speaker 2: who can come in and say yes, they intend to

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Speaker 2: make the units income restricted. And I think, you know

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Speaker 2: that's what we would have to ensure as we write

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Speaker 2: the contract and partner with them.

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Speaker 1: He's a council member, Mark Jeffers and the Scotslan show

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Speaker 1: on seven hundred WLW. And the proposal here to take

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Speaker 1: the development from the Cincinnat Southern Railway Trust funds, So

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Speaker 1: it's going to be police stations and rec centers and

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Speaker 1: firehouses and things, Paul libraries, things like that, and in

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Speaker 1: a separate account to housing over the top of some

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Speaker 1: of these buildings to alleviate the housing crisis in Cincinnati.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's a creative idea. It's a creative

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Speaker 1: solution here. It'll put a small den in things. But again,

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Speaker 1: any step forward in the right direction, I think is

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty good idea.

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Speaker 2: Mark, Yeah, no, I've scotten. The thing that I want

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Speaker 2: to emphasize you're books listening is the prior point. None

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Speaker 2: of this money for housing on top would come from

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Speaker 2: public dollars. This would not be railroad dollars or anything.

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Speaker 2: Because I think, you know, initially, when one might see that,

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Speaker 2: they might conclude that. I think what it is is, hey,

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Speaker 2: we're building these structures anyway, let's partner with somebody who

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Speaker 2: then because you've already put this on costs and can

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Speaker 2: build housing on top.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know I mentioned car is fifty thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars the average price of car in America, and the

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Speaker 1: housing price of housing and rent is going through the

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Speaker 1: literally the roof as well. No pun intended something else

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Speaker 1: had happened recently.

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: You only have a second for this. But during his stay,

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Speaker 1: the same mayor, after a purevol mentioned his pension bailout

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Speaker 1: plan two hundred and fifty million dollars was stuck in

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Speaker 1: ten years ago to try and fully fund the city

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Speaker 1: pension program. And now it's like, hey, we don't have

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Speaker 1: enough money in twenty twenty six, and so now we've

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Speaker 1: got another fifty million dollars going in the system, which

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Speaker 1: is about, you know, taking a sick if can bite

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Speaker 1: out of tax revenues.

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Speaker 3: At some point you look at that model and go,

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Speaker 3: it's antiquated. It's old.

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Speaker 1: That employer funded or city funded pension plan plan doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we just move everyone in a four to

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Speaker 1: one K.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a lot bigger discussion. I mean,

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Speaker 2: as you know, the Futures Commission had several recommendations on

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Speaker 2: solvency on the pension. Uh. The proposal that was outlined

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Speaker 2: last week was intended as kind of a compromise with

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Speaker 2: the employer or employees actually increased their own contribution and

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Speaker 2: then the city in turn is increasing their contribution. So

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Speaker 2: it's intended as kind of a balance. But I think

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Speaker 2: that's a bigger, longer term conversation is how do we

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Speaker 2: make sure that you know, I mean, it's the solvency

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Speaker 2: of that fund and the impact on city budgets.

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Speaker 1: Well, fixed you know, fixed pension plans are it's a dog.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, it's losing all over the place, teachers

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Speaker 1: here in the city of Cincinnati. You can't afford fifty

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Speaker 1: million every few years to prop this whole thing up.

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Speaker 1: And at some point, you know, four oh one k's

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Speaker 1: work wonderfully. I'm in one, and I know people go on,

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Speaker 1: there's no guarant there's no guarantees anymore. I mean, pensions

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Speaker 1: are you know, an idea that's at least fifty years old.

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Speaker 1: They just simply don't work anymore. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: unfair to burden people, especially younger tax payers and those

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Speaker 1: who are trying to lure to Cincinnati by having to

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Speaker 1: pay the freight on this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, look, I have a four to one

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Speaker 2: k myself for my company and my wife through her

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Speaker 2: pediatric office as well. So I mean, I hear you.

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Speaker 2: I think this is a larger discussion that we need

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Speaker 2: to have that came out of the Futures Commission of

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Speaker 2: how do we make sure that our fiscal health is

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Speaker 2: strong going forward? Yeah, and you know there's a lot

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Speaker 2: more that we need to do on that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have a separate conversation there, but that definitely

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Speaker 1: has to change. He's concol member Mark Jeffries. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: jumping on the show again. Mark, have a great day.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate it's got tick.

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Speaker 3: Tack care all the best.

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Speaker 1: Let me get a news updated and that's a five

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Speaker 1: minutes away here on seven hundred wwe whipsov whether we

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Speaker 1: have warm temperatures. We've got more snow comingting and then

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Speaker 1: more warm temperatures. As Mom would say, you're gonna get sick,

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Speaker 1: You're gonna catch your death. Full forecast traffic. All that

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Speaker 1: just minutes away. Here on the Big One, seven hundred

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Speaker 1: ww iHeartMedia and seven hundred w DOW salute Cincinnati's own

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Speaker 1: Procter and Gamble. If you've got someone there you'd like

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Speaker 1: for us to recognize on air, text their name to

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Speaker 1: fifty one eight eighty one and be listening