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Speaker 1: Good morning from South Dakota.

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Speaker 2: They should change the name of the Immigrations and Customs

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Speaker 2: Enforcement to the National Immigration Customs and Enforcement. Who could

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Speaker 2: protest against nice? Everyone have a great day.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, at least you made me smile this morning,

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Speaker 3: because I really am in a grumpy mood.

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Speaker 1: So the shooting that everyone is.

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Speaker 3: Expecting me to talk about occurred just about when I

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Speaker 3: was going on air for the nationally syndicated program on Saturday,

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Speaker 3: so I didn't talk about it at all on Saturday.

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Speaker 3: Of course, you know, it was happening out, it was

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Speaker 3: playing out in real time, so I obviously wasn't going

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Speaker 3: to comment on it until I had time to find

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Speaker 3: out a lot about it. I've come to this conclusion though,

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Speaker 3: we have spent way too much time talking about Minnesota,

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Speaker 3: the state that makes up less than two percent of

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Speaker 3: the all electoral College votes.

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Speaker 1: And then again, maybe.

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Speaker 3: If Minnesota wasn't responsible for so much of the malaise

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Speaker 3: and the resistance in this country, I wouldn't feel to,

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Speaker 3: you know, to compel every single scandal, like you know,

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Speaker 3: the left wing violence that's going on, the incompetence of

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Speaker 3: Timothy Walls, the governor, men Adishue, the Somali fraud, all

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Speaker 3: of that that's going on. But for a little perspective

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Speaker 3: before we get into that, I just want to warn

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Speaker 3: you ahead of ahead of time. Now, today's program is dark,

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Speaker 3: and it is pretty intense, and it's pretty thick in depth,

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Speaker 3: and it's you know, some programmers may think it's not

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Speaker 3: very good radio. Other people may think it's exactly the

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Speaker 3: exact kind of radio that you need. It's not the

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Speaker 3: kind of radio that I like to do necessarily, but

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Speaker 3: it's kind of radio that a day like this, I

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Speaker 3: think it's precisely what radio is made for, and that

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Speaker 3: is to give you something to think about. You're not

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Speaker 3: gonna like everything I have to say today. In fact,

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Speaker 3: you mean not like a lot of what I have

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Speaker 3: to say today. But what I hope you will do

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Speaker 3: is that you'll at least set aside all of the

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Speaker 3: emotions going on and that we can have some rational

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Speaker 3: discussion about what's going on in this country, because what's

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Speaker 3: going on in this country is going to destroy the

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Speaker 3: country if we don't wake up and start paying attention

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Speaker 3: to what's happening. Janice, who's one of our listeners in Boston.

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Speaker 3: She listens during the weekday and the weekend a larned

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Speaker 3: me to or tag me in a in a tweet

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Speaker 3: or a post, whatever the crime we're supposed to call it.

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Speaker 1: Now X.

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Speaker 3: About the number of violent confrontations that are existing between

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Speaker 3: these protesters, the insurrectionists, the useful idiots. You see, the

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Speaker 3: problem is there's so many different nouns adgitives that I

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Speaker 3: can use today that if I choose one over another,

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Speaker 3: some of you will go, oh, why didn't you say this,

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Speaker 3: or why didn't you say that? I would suggest that

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Speaker 3: everybody just maybe take you everything I have to say

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Speaker 3: today before you come to any conclusion about anything. And

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Speaker 3: quite frankly, I hope that the only conclusion you come

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Speaker 3: to by the end.

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Speaker 1: Of the program today is that I got a lot

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Speaker 1: to think about.

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Speaker 3: And there's a lot of nuance going on, and there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of good stuff, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 3: bad stuff, and we can all hold all of these

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Speaker 3: conflicting ideas in our minds at the same time. Get

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Speaker 3: out of your corner, get out of your comfortable little corner,

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Speaker 3: and realize that maybe what you're being fed by Fox News,

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Speaker 3: or you're being fed by the networks, or you're being

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Speaker 3: fed by the table channels. When I divide them up

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Speaker 3: that way, I'm talking about CNN, MSN.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, ms NOW or whatever the crap they call it.

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Speaker 3: And when I say Fox News, I'm really referring to

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Speaker 3: Fox News and OAN and Newsmax and maybe even News Nation.

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Speaker 3: But everybody has run to their corners, and nobody's being

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Speaker 3: logical rational, No, nobody's being reasonable. Nobody's thinking, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: I can support the Second Amendment, and I can support

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Speaker 3: law enforcement, and I can support the deportation of illegal

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Speaker 3: aliens and think that something's going wrong in Minnesota. I

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Speaker 3: can support the First Amendment, and I can support the

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Speaker 3: right to peace by the way, you know, just as

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Speaker 3: an example. And I don't mean to go off on

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Speaker 3: this particular text message, but I think it's an example

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Speaker 3: of how And I'm not really sure what's man because

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Speaker 3: it's a text message, so I'm not sure the inflection.

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Speaker 3: I'm not sure of the meaning. All I have are

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Speaker 3: the words in front of me. But Guber number nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty three wrote Michael, let's not forget there is no

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Speaker 3: constitutional right to protest Comma. Ever, you you can do

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Speaker 3: have the right to peaceably assembly. Oh, come on, a

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Speaker 3: peaceable assembly can be a protest. A protest can be

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Speaker 3: a peaceably peaceable assembly. They're interchangeable. But I think, and

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Speaker 3: again I'm not picking on you, but because I'm not

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Speaker 3: really sure what you meant by that, But it strikes

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Speaker 3: me as the kind of of, oh, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: let's let's go nippicking about every little thing here. I

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Speaker 3: am an ardent supporter of the Second Amendment. And by

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Speaker 3: the way, guess what. You do have a right to

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Speaker 3: take a lawfully permitted concealed carry weapon to a protest

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Speaker 3: in some states, and in other states you do not.

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Speaker 1: And it also depends on.

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Speaker 3: What what is the definition of a protest? What is

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Speaker 3: the definition of a political rally? And I bet most

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Speaker 3: of you, except for maybe maybe a lawyer up in Alaska,

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Speaker 3: don't really know the difference. I don't know that I

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Speaker 3: know all of the differences. So for all that I

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Speaker 3: keep hearing about, oh you well, what.

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Speaker 1: Was this king?

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Speaker 3: You know he should have been shocked because he approached

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Speaker 3: the officers with a weapon, really show me that video,

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Speaker 3: because I haven't seen that video. I've watched every freaking

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Speaker 3: video that I can find, and I don't find a

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Speaker 3: video where he brandished a weapon I don't show. I

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Speaker 3: don't find any of that anywhere. I've looked all the

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Speaker 3: grainy footage, I've looked at all the frame by frame,

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Speaker 3: I've looked at everything. Now, did he make what I

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Speaker 3: believe is a stupid decision? Yes, But this stupid decision

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Speaker 3: wasn't necessarily carrying a concealed weapon. The stupid decision was

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Speaker 3: beginning to interfere in a law enforcement action that was

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Speaker 3: taking place in front of him. Well, there are a

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Speaker 3: lot of who we're when and whys about this entire

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Speaker 3: story and some of the for all the contexts that

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Speaker 3: we need to do this program today, let's start with

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Speaker 3: a couple of things. First, the whole country is not

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Speaker 3: blowing up. We are not on the verge of a

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Speaker 3: civil war, according to Island, according to this is from

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Speaker 3: This is from Kevin Bass. Kevin Bass is on x

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Speaker 3: He's got up almost two hundred thousand followers. He's interested

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Speaker 3: in tech. I a public health once his kicked out

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Speaker 3: a TTU med for truth telling. I went to Texas

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Speaker 3: Tech to tell the truth about what it did. Blah

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Speaker 3: blah blah. So anyway, I don't know this guy is,

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Speaker 3: but he's in an analysis of the violence that is

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Speaker 3: occurring in the country didn't forguess what, congratulations you've made

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Speaker 3: the top ten. Here, you've made the top ten the

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Speaker 3: number of violent confrontations with ice per county, which includes protesters, journalists, bystanders, officers,

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Speaker 3: US citizens, all counties with four or more violent confrontations.

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Speaker 3: Sixty three percent of all violent confrontations with ice happen

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Speaker 3: in nine counties, nine metropolitan areas, and they're all headed

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Speaker 3: by sanctuary city mayors and or sanctuary city governors. Brandon

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Speaker 3: Johnson Chicago at twenty eight, Karen Bass Los Angeles at

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Speaker 3: twenty five, Jacob Fray Minnesota on on Zo ran zofran

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Speaker 3: Mondani New York at twelve, Keith Wilson in Portland at six,

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Speaker 3: Daniel Lurie in San Francisco at six, Katie Wilson Seattle

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Speaker 3: at four, Rest Baraka in Newark at four, and Mike

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Speaker 3: Mike Johnston Denver at four. So we've had violent confrontations

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Speaker 3: in non cooperating jurisdictions. We've had one hundred and ten

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Speaker 3: in the top nine non cooperating counties and in all

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Speaker 3: other counties.

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Speaker 1: There are more.

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Speaker 3: Than three thousand counties in this country. They're occurring in

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Speaker 3: nine and we're one of those. Denver County is one

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Speaker 3: of those. Now, the other thing that I want to

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Speaker 3: provide in terms of context is what iciest battlely in Minnesota?

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Speaker 3: And do I think everything the ISS do? Do I

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Speaker 3: think their tactics are correct? Not always? Do I think

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Speaker 3: their strategy I'm not even sure what their strategy is.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not quite sure that they're trained well enough

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Speaker 3: to be doing the whatever tactics they're engaged in, that

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Speaker 3: they're trained well enough to engage in those tactics. But

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Speaker 3: we have to understand that those who are engaged in

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Speaker 3: the violent confrontations are an incredibly well organized and an

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Speaker 3: incredibly well documented group of people that are carrying out

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Speaker 3: this violence. It is kind of not ironic, but cam

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Speaker 3: Higby has done in research of all of the organizational efforts.

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Speaker 3: I mean, let me put it this way. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is probably a better way for you to understand it.

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Speaker 3: What ICE is up against is a very well organized militia.

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Speaker 3: I know militia is an emotionally charged term, but that's

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Speaker 3: what it is. It is a militia. They have a hierarchy,

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Speaker 3: a structure, they have a commanding, they have a commanding

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Speaker 3: and control structure. They have what you might have generals

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Speaker 3: and captains and lieutenants, and they're organized into battalions.

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Speaker 1: If you will. They have a communications structure.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, just as a little fit note,

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Speaker 3: in so far as the communication structure is concerned, it's

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Speaker 3: primarily Signal, which is an encrypted app. But they've also

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Speaker 3: discovered that on the encrypted app engaged in these communication

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Speaker 3: efforts of identifying the whu Waweerwin and why of ice

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Speaker 3: activities include journalists from like NPR. So they have a

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Speaker 3: commanding control structure, they have they have an organizational structure,

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Speaker 3: They have a logistics structure and a logistics function, and

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Speaker 3: they have a training function, and they have a financial function.

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Speaker 3: They have everything that you need for an armed resistance.

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Speaker 1: In Minneapolis.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm sure that similar organization exists in all the

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Speaker 3: other nine counties, and they're probably trying to get organized

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Speaker 3: in other counties too. So it is not a bunch

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Speaker 3: of ad hoc people just showing up. I'm sure some

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Speaker 3: people do show up, but there is an underlying structure

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Speaker 3: to this opposition to these protests, whatever you want to

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Speaker 3: call them, peaceable assemblies. I really at this point, don't

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Speaker 3: care what you call them. It is a resistance.

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Speaker 1: Now, if I.

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Speaker 3: Get time today in the program, I've told you before

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Speaker 3: in a segment on this program that I thought it

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Speaker 3: was early, too early, and it was the wrong time

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Speaker 3: to invoke the Insurrection Act. My attitude on that has

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Speaker 3: now changed and is now that is probably time to

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Speaker 3: invoke the Insurrection Act. But that's going to come with

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Speaker 3: a lot of political ramifications. That's going to come with

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Speaker 3: a lot of because of because of the organization that

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Speaker 3: is now taking that has taken hold, is now exposing

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Speaker 3: itself in this country, means that the invocation of the

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Speaker 3: Insurrection Act is going to have a lot of unintended

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Speaker 3: and intended consequences that I'm not sure the country is

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Speaker 3: ready for. But from a purely legal point of view,

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Speaker 3: not political legal point of view, it's probably time to

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Speaker 3: invoke the Insurrection Act. So what I'd like to do

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Speaker 3: throughout the program today is to walk through what we

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Speaker 3: know and what we don't know, because those two things

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Speaker 3: mean that if there is a lot of things that

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Speaker 3: we don't know, then whatever Stephen Miller is saying out

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Speaker 3: of the White House calling this person that was shot

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Speaker 3: an assassin is way over the top and incorrect, and

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Speaker 3: you got to be ashamed of himself for doing that.

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Speaker 3: On the other hand, Christy Noan coming out and talking

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Speaker 3: about law enforcement, was they had a reasonable fear for

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Speaker 3: their life.

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Speaker 1: That may or may not be true.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, because I'm not that officer that first

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Speaker 3: drew his gun and first fired the shots. And when

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Speaker 3: you are in that heat of that moment, have you

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Speaker 3: ever heard I'm sure I know you've heard are seen

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Speaker 3: in the movies. I forget who the star was in

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Speaker 3: one of these movies. Uh, pretty a list actor, but

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Speaker 3: I think is an over secret service agent and he

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Speaker 3: shouts gun, which is a signal to all the other

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Speaker 3: agents to you know, get the principal out, in this case,

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Speaker 3: the president, and you are.

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Speaker 1: Now the adrenaline is rushing, and if.

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Speaker 3: You see a gun, you're probably gonna shoot to kill

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Speaker 3: because you have an immediate perceived threat of violence to

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Speaker 3: yourself or to you, to your principle, and so you're

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Speaker 3: going to fire. So in looking at some of these videos,

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Speaker 3: I never see. All I see is an ice agent pullback,

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Speaker 3: draw his weapon and fire.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Once he fires, in that very instant, I'm not talking

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Speaker 3: about minutes before. I'm not talking about minutes after. I'm

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Speaker 3: talking in that very instant. Once someone much like that

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Speaker 3: secret Service agent in the movie I cannot remember, shouts gun,

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Speaker 3: everybody reacts to that. So when a singular ice agent

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Speaker 3: draws his weapon, which may or may have i have

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Speaker 3: been the right thing to do. See, these are all

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Speaker 3: things that we don't know yet. When he draws his

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Speaker 3: weapon and he fires, and then you get the news reports,

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Speaker 3: oh my gosh, there were what ten or fifteen shots

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Speaker 3: fired or whatever the number was within ten or fifteen

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Speaker 3: seconds says ten and fifteen whatever. I'm not surprised by that,

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Speaker 3: because as those milliseconds are taking place, and someone in

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Speaker 3: your group in which you're trying to restrain, one individual

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Speaker 3: either shouts gun or pulls his weapon, and he has

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Speaker 3: a reasonable fear for his life and he fires his

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Speaker 3: happened That fear, whether it's reasonable or not, spreads just

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Speaker 3: like a virus boom to all the others, and so

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Speaker 3: everyone else in draws are gun and they fire also,

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Speaker 3: may be justified, may not be justified, we don't know,

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Speaker 3: because there's been no investigation yet. But putting it despite

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Speaker 3: all of that, we still have the problem of what

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Speaker 3: really took place here. So let's start with just a

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Speaker 3: factual record. You're probably not even like some of the

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Speaker 3: facts and why, and maybe I shouldn't even call them facts.

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Speaker 3: But here's what we know, and here's what's being reported,

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Speaker 3: and here's what we can determine from either our own eyes,

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Speaker 3: our own reading, our own from far away. I don't

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Speaker 3: live in Minnesota, and I wasn't there, but what I

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Speaker 3: can gather from what occurred, I can provide you some

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Speaker 3: basic facts, some basic jumping off points, and we'll do

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Speaker 3: that next morning.

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Speaker 4: Michael and Dragon. I'm still really confused how it has

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Speaker 4: become normal to just blatantly interfere, sometimes violently in federal

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Speaker 4: law enforcement operations, law enforcement operations in general.

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Speaker 1: And we have.

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Speaker 4: Elected officials, public officials, certainly in Minnesota and albeit all

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Speaker 4: across the continent on the United States encouraging this.

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Speaker 1: Where are we.

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Speaker 3: We're exactly where that organized group of people want us

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Speaker 3: to be, on the edge. That's what they've been aiming for.

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Speaker 3: And if if it is proven that these agents kill

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Speaker 3: this guy not based on any natural or even legal

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Speaker 3: law of self defense, but actually killed him without justification,

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Speaker 3: that's precisely what they want here's what. Here's what we

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Speaker 3: Here are the basic facts. So the victim is Alex

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Speaker 3: Pretti's thirty seven years old, He's an American citizen, he

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Speaker 3: was an ICU nurse, he had no criminal record beyond

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Speaker 3: some traffic tickets, and he was legally permitted to carry

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Speaker 3: a concealed weapon in Minnesota. Now, later in the program,

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Speaker 3: we're going to analyze whether or not he could be

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Speaker 3: carrying that weapon in that particular location, which I think

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Speaker 3: is not clear because different states have different laws about

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Speaker 3: where you can and cannot legally carry. Now you know

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Speaker 3: what my position is, and I'm telling you this is

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Speaker 3: why you've got to listen, and you've got to set

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Speaker 3: aside your own personal beliefs. Because while I believe, like

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Speaker 3: when I see a sign that said this is a

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Speaker 3: gun free zone, I laughed myself and I think that's

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Speaker 3: a bunch of bull crap, But I also know that

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Speaker 3: there are some gun free zones which I would never

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Speaker 3: try to take a gun in, say a federal courthouse. Oh,

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Speaker 3: I have a license to carry, Yes, I do. But

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Speaker 3: would I carry it into a courthouse? No? I would not,

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Speaker 3: because I know that that is both under Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: rulings and under federal statues and probably have you under

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Speaker 3: some state and local statutes that.

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Speaker 1: Would be illegal. So I'm not going to do it.

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Speaker 3: But he was legally permitted to carry a concealed weapon.

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Speaker 3: Whether it was legal or not legal in those in

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Speaker 3: those particular circumstances is a question of fact and a

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Speaker 3: question of law to which we don't have a clear

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Speaker 3: answer yet. So everybody about that when just settled down.

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Speaker 3: So this happens Saturday, this past Saturday, about nine o'clock

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Speaker 3: in the morning at twenty six and Nicolette Avenue and

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Speaker 3: the wit of your neighborhood. They shot and kill a

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Speaker 3: credit during this immigration enforcement operation. Ten shots fired within

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Speaker 3: five seconds. And from that we get two competing narratives. Now,

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Speaker 3: according to the to the DHS and ICE, predator approached

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Speaker 3: border patrol off officers and he had a nine millimeter

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Speaker 3: hit a nine millimeter glock. And they also say that

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Speaker 3: he intended the massacre law enforcement and do maximum damage,

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Speaker 3: That he violently resisted attempts to disarm him, that the

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Speaker 3: agents fired defensive shots fearing for his life and for

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Speaker 3: the fellow officers. Christy Noan called him a domestic terrorist

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Speaker 3: who brandished a weapon, now I find let's stop at that,

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Speaker 3: Let's pause on that one for a moment. Seriously, how

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Speaker 3: can someone with no record? Now, he might be a

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Speaker 3: clean skin, but and if you don't want to clean

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Speaker 3: skin is go look it up. I've used that term

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Speaker 3: for a bazillion years now. To call him as a

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Speaker 3: domestic terrorist and that he brandished a weapon, those are

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Speaker 3: legal terms of art, and I don't know that he

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Speaker 3: fits either one of those. You know, maybe it's one

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Speaker 3: thing for a layperson to think that somebody is a

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Speaker 3: domestic terrorist, and it's another thing for a person to

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Speaker 3: think they may have brandished a weapon. But those are

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Speaker 3: all legal definition. We have a legal definition of a

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Speaker 3: domestic terrorist, and we have legal definition of brandishing a weapon.

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Speaker 3: Stephen Miller's I said earlier, actually called him it would

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Speaker 3: be assassin?

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Speaker 1: Where did that come from?

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Speaker 3: On what basis did Stephen Miller say that he was

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Speaker 3: a would be assassin?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: I know the counter argument is because he had a

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Speaker 3: couple of extra magazines. You want to go to having

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Speaker 3: that magazines I'm carrying, does that make me it would

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Speaker 3: be assassined? You see, these are all conflicting narratives. Now

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Speaker 3: that's the federal government narrative we have we get the

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Speaker 3: video itself, lots of video. I'm not sure we have

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Speaker 3: all the video yet. But before there's any contact, the

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Speaker 3: victim is seen filming in with his phone. He directing

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Speaker 3: traffic around the federal operation. This is way before the

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Speaker 3: shooting occurs. Then there's the initial confrontation. An ICE agent

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Speaker 3: pushes a woman to the ground. Then the victim responds.

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Speaker 3: While he tries to move between the agent and the woman,

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Speaker 3: the phone is in his right hand, his left hand

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Speaker 3: is raised, so an ICE agent Pepper sprays both the

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Speaker 3: victim and the woman that got pushed, and at that

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Speaker 3: point multiple agents wrestle predit pretty to the ground while

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Speaker 3: he's still holding his phone. Now, about eight seconds after

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Speaker 3: he is pinned to the ground, agents yell about a gun.

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Speaker 3: I'm not quite sure what they yell. I can't quite

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Speaker 3: I've had any audio analysis yet, but I'm not quite

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Speaker 3: sure yet what they yell. But something has yelled about

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Speaker 3: a gun. Once there is some yelling about a gun,

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Speaker 3: an agent in gray reaches to Preddy's waistband, pulls the gun.

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Speaker 1: And moves away from the scuffle.

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Speaker 3: Less less than one second after the gun is removed,

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Speaker 3: another the first shot at Pretty's back at close range,

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Speaker 3: and then the other agents reacting to that, in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: fire at least ten shots within five seconds, including shots

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Speaker 3: fire while he's motionless on the ground. Now, don't read

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Speaker 3: anything into that, but that is something that will go

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Speaker 3: whenever this gets to a trial, whenever this gets to investigation,

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Speaker 3: that will be something if they will consider. Now, I

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Speaker 3: want you to think about some evidentiary points that are

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Speaker 3: critical in this analysis. No video that I can find

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Speaker 3: ever shows him holding the gun. Now, I know many

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Speaker 3: of you might send me. Someone's already said, Michael, be

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Speaker 3: you ready. Everybody's gonna send you video saying here's where

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Speaker 3: it shows him holding the gun. Well, then that'll be

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Speaker 3: new to me because I've looked for the entire weekend

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Speaker 3: and I can't find any video of him holding the gun.

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Speaker 3: No video shows him brandishing or drawing the weapon. If

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Speaker 3: you've seen that, sure you're welcome to email it to me.

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Speaker 3: But I haven't seen it yet. And I've got access

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Speaker 3: to Lexus and Axus into every news organization, and now

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Speaker 3: I do have some access to some people on the inside,

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Speaker 3: and I'm hearing conflicting stories on the inside too. The

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Speaker 3: video showed that his hand the phone was in his hand,

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Speaker 3: not the gun. And we know from doing taxpayer relief

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Speaker 3: shots that sometimes a phone can be mistaken for a gun. Right,

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Speaker 3: we've seen we've had the most tax payer relief shots

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Speaker 3: where somebody reaches for something because they're going to In fact,

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Speaker 3: I think that may have even been a case in

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Speaker 3: Colorado where a kid reaches for his phone and they

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Speaker 3: and they end up shooting him. Now, the gun itself

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Speaker 3: was concealed. Agents did not discover the gun until he

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Speaker 3: had already been restrained. Two sworn witness abidavits fire already

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Speaker 3: filed in federal court, say that he did not brandish

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Speaker 3: a weapon. Now, there may be countervaving affidavits filed, you know,

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Speaker 3: sometime later today, but as of now, we have two

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Speaker 3: sworn affidavits that he did not brandish the weapon. Now,

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Speaker 3: the Minneapolis police chief, who I don't put a lot

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Speaker 3: of credibility in, but does state indeed that he was

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Speaker 3: in everything I can tell, he was a lawful gun

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Speaker 3: owner with a proper permit to conceal carry. Now, set

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Speaker 3: aside for a moment, whether or not it was reasonable, practical, smart, stupid, silly, crazy, dumb,

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Speaker 3: whatever word you want to use to bring a gun

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Speaker 3: to a law enforcement action, and you could even ask

408
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Speaker 3: the question, did he intentionally bring the gun or was he?

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Speaker 3: Was he part of this organized effort or not? We

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Speaker 3: don't really know yet. Now this was a short second.

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Speaker 3: You know, even the NRA has come out and said,

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Speaker 3: wait a minute, let's don't vilify this guy for concealed

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Speaker 3: carrying a weapon, even at a protest. And I happen,

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Speaker 3: you know, as much as I sometimes think the NRA

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Speaker 3: is not doing that great of a job, I happened

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Speaker 3: to agree with the NRA's statement on this. Everybody. I

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Speaker 3: find it fascinating that Second Amendment supporters are now complaining

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Speaker 3: about someone who is lawfully concealed carrying a weapon, complaining

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Speaker 3: about him concealed carrying a weapon simply because of the

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Speaker 3: location of that weapon or the location of where he

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Speaker 3: was concealed carrying. The right to keep them their arms

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Speaker 3: kids is well established Hell versus m Heller case, the

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Speaker 3: McDonald case, and Minnesota two is an open carrying state

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Speaker 3: with a permit to carry a system. He had a

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Speaker 3: valid permit, and under Minnesota law, he was legally entitled

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Speaker 3: to carry that gun either concealed or openly. But here's

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Speaker 3: what you need to understand. The Second Amendment gives you

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Speaker 3: the right to possess guns. It does not give you

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Speaker 3: immunity from how law enforcement might perceive that possession. You

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Speaker 3: can how many times, how many times have I been

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Speaker 3: around a cop and they don't know and I don't

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Speaker 3: tell them and they can't see it. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I might have a gun in a backpack. I might

434
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 3: have a gun on an ankle. I might have a

435
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 3: gun in a waist man. I might have a gun

436
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 3: in the in the glove box or in the console.

437
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: Might have guns everywhere. But you don't have immunity from

438
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 3: how law enforcement perceives the procession the possession of a weapon.

439
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 3: And the Second Amendment does not give you the right

440
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 3: to interfere with law enforcement operations. Your Second Amendment has

441
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 3: nothing to do with your right to interfere with law

442
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 3: enforcement operations. And the Second Amendment protection from reasonable officers

443
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: safety concerns, And it doesn't give you a free pass

444
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: on use of force analysis, which is something it is

445
00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 3: queen to have to be done.

446
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 5: Would you go to a riot, conceal carry your gun

447
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 5: and not disclose it even if you weren't going to

448
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 5: pull it. Would you go to a riot with a

449
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 5: gun concealed that's the question. Would you be in the

450
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 5: middle of a tuckas of rioting with a concealed weapon?

451
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: First, I wouldn't go to a riot. I choose not

452
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: to go to a riot. Well, let's chase the words protest,

453
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: peaceful protest.

454
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 3: Would I go to a peaceful protest with a concealed

455
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 3: carry weapon. Yes, I would, Yes, but I also understand

456
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: the risk of doing so, and I choose to take

457
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: those risks because peaceful protests often turn into unpeaceful protests. Yes,

458
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 3: but if there's a riot going on, how would I

459
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: go voluntarily get in the middle of a riot unless

460
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 3: I was trying to rescue a family member or something.

461
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 3: Not sure what's your points trying to make? But then

462
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 3: less so let's think, let's go through this. We've gone

463
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 3: through the Second Amendment. Let's go through the right of

464
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: self defense. Could this victim have claim self defense? Well,

465
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: he needs to have a reasonable belief of imminent unlawful

466
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: deadly force necessity, no reasonable alternative to other than defend yourself.

467
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: There has to be proportionality to what the threat is.

468
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 3: In Minnesota, there is no duty to retreat and you

469
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 3: cannot be the initial aggressor. So let's apply it to

470
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 3: this victim now, based on the evidence so far, which

471
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 3: is scant, he never drew or displayed his weapon, he

472
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 3: was responding to an agent pushing people, he had his

473
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: phone out on his gun. He got pepper sprayed while

474
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 3: he was trying to help somebody else, So could he

475
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 3: have claimed self defense if he had drawn his weapon.

476
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 3: This is where it gets really complicated, because Minnesota law

477
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: recognizes that you can defend others from unlawful force, and

478
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 3: you can even under Minnesota law. Law resists unlawful arrest,

479
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: although they get very dicey, and that is very fact specific,

480
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 3: and a peaceful protest is a protected activity. But practically,

481
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: once you're at a federal law enforcement operation an agents

482
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: initiate contact, claiming self defense becomes nearly impossible, at least

483
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 3: in my opinion, because the courts are going to give

484
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 3: wide latitude to officers, threats assessments, and federal agents who

485
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: are conducting lawful operations have authority to secure the scene.

486
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: So interference, I.

487
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 3: Don't care how well intentioned you are, interference in that

488
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 3: operation can be criminal and the moment you escalate to

489
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 3: armed resistance, you've legally lost and you've lost your rights

490
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: at that point.

491
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: Here's the cruel reality. Even if the victim.

492
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 3: Had a theoretical self defense claim by helping somebody was

493
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 3: being unlawfully assaulted, if she even if she was being

494
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 3: unlawfully assaulted, which is questionable in and of itself, he

495
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: never got to make it because he never.

496
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: Drew his weapon.

497
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 3: So now you got to look at a law enforcement

498
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: use of force analysis, and this is where the nuance

499
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: really comes in. The legal standard was established in nineteen

500
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 3: eighty nine in a case called Graham versus Connor. There

501
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 3: has to be objective reasonableness from the perspective of a

502
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: reasonable officer on the scene, considering the severity of the climb,

503
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 3: the immediate threat to safety of the officers or others,

504
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 3: and active resistance that's taking place or any attempts to

505
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 3: evade not evaluated based on twenty twenty hindsight. The application here,

506
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 3: here's what the government should argue. They may be I

507
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: should Here's what the government will argue. I think armed

508
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: individual and an enforcement operation. So there's your severity discovered

509
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 3: to have a gun during a physical struggle that becomes

510
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 3: a threat. You then have physical resistance to the officers,

511
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 3: that's the resistance. Then you have the split second decision

512
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 3: during a dynamic, ongoing encounter, and now you've got the

513
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: question of reasonableness. But here's the problem with that argument,

514
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 3: because the video evidence suggests there was no brandishing, no threat,

515
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 3: display control was established, he was pinned down by multiple agents.

516
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: It appears that he was disarmed before shooting, and then

517
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 3: the timing shots fired after the threat was neutralized, which

518
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: then raises all sorts of questions about a reasonable fear.

519
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: And remember we're talking about nanoseconds. So I would just

520
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: frame it as a legal question this way. Was it

521
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: objectively reasonable for an officer to believe that the victim

522
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: posed an immediate deadly threat after another officer had removed

523
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 3: his weapon and stepped away from the struggle. And this

524
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 3: is where I think the government's case gets shaky, because

525
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 3: under that gram standard, the threat has to be immediate. Well,

526
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 3: if it's proven the gun was no longer on the victim,

527
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 3: the threat's not immediate and it must be necessary. How

528
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 3: can it be necessary when he was restrained and pinned

529
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: to the ground by multiple agents and the facts matter

530
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 3: the video shows unless somebody comes up with a new

531
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 3: one in the next you know what, holm length of

532
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 3: time the videos show so far showly never went for

533
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 3: the gun, and then there's deadly force cannot be used

534
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: unless the suspect poses an immediate threat of serious physical

535
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 3: harm or fleeing. The victim is fleeing and will cause

536
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 3: death or serious harm if they don't immediately apprehend him.

537
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 3: He wasn't fleeing, he wasn't armed the gun and been removed,

538
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: not threatening anyone. He'd been pinned down by multiple agents.

539
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 3: So now you've got the entire So now in the

540
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 3: context of all of that, Now, remember those are all

541
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,319
Speaker 3: facts that we know today. Those facts may change. In fact,

542
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 3: I believe those facts probably will change. Even if he

543
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: violated no laws in being there and carrying his weapon,

544
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 3: that it still doesn't mean the shooting was justified, because

545
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 3: there's some there are potential federal charges here. Had he lived,

546
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 3: there would be these charges violation of Title eighteen, Section

547
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 3: one to eleven. We've talked about this a bazillion times now,

548
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 3: assaulting or resisting or impeding federal officers, and as a

549
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,640
Speaker 3: felony if you're armed when you do that. Title eighteen,

550
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: Section fifteen oh nine obstruction of federal investigations. Clearly that

551
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 3: was going on, but violating those statutes doesn't carry to

552
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 3: the death penalty. None of what we know so far

553
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: justifies deadly force unless he posed an immediate deadly threat.

554
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 3: And that's the question. That's the question that needs to

555
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 3: be answered. And everybody's gone to the corner and some

556
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: people say, oh, it was totally justified. Others they were

557
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 3: totally unjustified. So what we really need to do is

558
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 3: we need to talk about the setup. How did we

559
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 3: get to this place, how do we get to where

560
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: we're where we're at today,