1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,800 Speaker 1: It's NIC's Eyes with Dan Ray. I'm going easy Boston's 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: News radio. 3 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 2: That is correct. It is night Side and I'm in 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 2: for Dan Bradley Jake. A couple of things. 5 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 3: If you are in the car now and you get 6 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 3: home and you kind of want to listen to the 7 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 3: rest of what we're talking about, but you don't want 8 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,400 Speaker 3: to sit in the cold car, you can go in 9 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 3: the house, even if you don't have a radio there. 10 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 3: You can listen on the iHeartRadio app. And if you 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 3: missed a part of a segment you want to go 12 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 3: back and listen, you can just google Nightside on demand. 13 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 3: Our first guest is one of your favorites. It's Michael Coin, 14 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 3: dean of the Massachusetts School of Law. And Mike is 15 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 3: up north. I believe he's so kind is to take 16 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 3: the evening of a vacation day here a holiday and 17 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 3: call in from a ski trip. 18 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: So how was today? Did it Did it turn to snow? 19 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 4: No, it didn't turn to snow up here at all. 20 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 4: It was raining, probably still is raining a little bit 21 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 4: right now. So it was pouring on the way up. 22 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 4: It was a miserable ride up to North Conway, but 23 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 4: it's beautiful once you're hear. It's a real Christmas town. 24 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 4: I think if anyone who was ever visited here, no, 25 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 4: So we're looking forward to some better weather tomorrow, even 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,319 Speaker 4: though it'll be cold, but we'll get some skiing in 27 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 4: with any luck tomorrow. 28 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: So you did not you were not able to ski today? 29 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: How did you spend the day? 30 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 4: We didn't get up till probably about two o'clock. We 31 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 4: had a nice late lunch and we were supposed to 32 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:38,040 Speaker 4: go tubing, but it really was so cold and windy 33 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 4: and rainy that we talked to them at Cranmore and 34 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 4: they agreed to give us vouchers for another day so 35 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 4: we'll be able to go sometime later during the time 36 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 4: we're here. So they were very kind about it. It's 37 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 4: a beautiful mountain and we were looking forward to it, 38 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 4: but it would have been miserable with the kids and 39 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 4: they would have gotten soaked wet. So maybe another afternoon 40 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 4: or evening when it's a little dryer will be better. 41 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 4: Even snow would be more preferable than this miserable rain. 42 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 2: By the way, what route do you take when you 43 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 2: go up there? 44 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 3: Do you go ninety five to Portsmouth and then up 45 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 3: route spelling Turnpike and whatever that. 46 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: Is after that, Yeah, we go. 47 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 4: We take that route up and I always took it up. 48 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 4: We used to come up here quite often. My brother 49 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 4: had a home up here as well, so we would 50 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 4: be up here frequently. But we take Root sixteen. And 51 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 4: you know, in good weather, Route sixteen is great, but 52 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 4: there are times when in the fall foliage especially, it 53 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 4: can be a chore. But once you get here, you 54 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 4: always enjoy the fact that you're hear and it is different, 55 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 4: obviously than the Boston metropolitan area. 56 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: Another way to go is up ninety three and then 57 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 2: across the King of Augus, right. 58 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, and I saw the kangam Angus today as we 59 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 4: got into town, and I did think about that that 60 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 4: I always enjoyed that trip across as well. But no, 61 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 4: we usually we live closer to ninety five now, so 62 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 4: it really is a better shot. And even when we 63 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 4: lived in the other side of town and closer to 64 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:15,839 Speaker 4: ninety three, I still think it's a little shorter getting here. 65 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 4: But ninety three is a nice ride, and especially as 66 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 4: you point out, taking the Caanga Mangus across is a 67 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 4: beautiful road. We used to camp off the Kanga Mangus 68 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 4: when we were teenagers, but that was an awful long 69 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,959 Speaker 4: time ago. You're from New Hampshire originally, right. 70 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: Yes, from from Rochester, which is kind of I don't know, 71 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 3: almost to the Lakes region. 72 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 4: But yeah, well I came. I came through Rochester today 73 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 4: to get here, that's right. 74 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 2: So let's get to the legal stuff. 75 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 3: Some of that we're going to get to today includes 76 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 3: the just the awful fighting going on inside the Ben 77 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 3: and Jerry's company and what's going on with the Demulis family, 78 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 3: as well as the Walch case after man and maybe 79 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: comparing a little bit to the Reed trial and the 80 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: Reed civil suit. And I'm curious on the latest on 81 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 3: Trooper Proctor. And also there's the Rhiner murders and the 82 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 3: fact that Alan Jackson's now representing them, and talk about 83 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 3: I guess the blood A judge blocked release of autopsy results, 84 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: and I'm curious about motive and what kind of case 85 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: they have and are they gonna do an insanity defense. 86 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: That's kind of hard to do, But we'll get to 87 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: all that. 88 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 3: And also, actually this is kind of an aside, but 89 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 3: it might have a legal angle to it. Seriously, since 90 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 3: you're you know, kind of in the mountains. You heard 91 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 3: a while ago a couple of eighteen year olds got 92 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 3: stuck and got in trouble up in Menadna and they 93 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: got to be rescued, and it looks like they might. 94 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 2: Have to pay. 95 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 3: But I'm wondering how to how they can be compelled 96 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 3: to pay, Like, who decides. 97 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 2: That you were. 98 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 3: Careless enough that you have to pay, but you were 99 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: not careless enough. Couldn't they mount some sort of legal 100 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 3: defense if it were, you know, worth the money? 101 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 4: Uh? Yeah, they could. But see that's that one. You 102 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 4: left out a key detail in that case, as I 103 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 4: understand it. Yeah, my understanding is the two young men 104 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 4: were quite intoxicated, and because of their level of intoxication 105 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 4: and it was both if it's the same case, and 106 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 4: if I remember the details right, both drugs and alcohol, 107 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 4: that they they left themselves in a very perilous condition. 108 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 4: And then, of course, obviously, especially when you're up here 109 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 4: for a while, you can see the danger that's all around. 110 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 4: Is that so then the rescuers are placed in some 111 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 4: danger to go out in the middle of the night, 112 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 4: when it's cold and dark and slippery, to go out 113 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 4: rescue people. They do it selflessly. But but I do 114 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,919 Speaker 4: understand the argument when you have been so reckless that 115 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 4: that you have caused others to go to great expense 116 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 4: to save you from your own stupidity, that there is 117 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,679 Speaker 4: a question about is it fair to make those folks 118 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 4: pay for some are all of the cost of rescuing them. 119 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 4: But but as you point out, so how reckless then 120 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 4: would you have to be in order to have a 121 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 4: fair way to evaluate it. 122 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 3: It's kind of a slippery slope. It's not slippery with 123 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 3: the alcohol. That's an easy line to draw alcohol or 124 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 3: legal drugs. But in cases and then I talk about 125 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: this at eleven again and recount this story. And I 126 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: also did something quite stupid on Mountain Ednth. It resulted 127 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: in a broken finger. 128 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: It was it was. It was bad, bad news. But 129 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: I'll talk about that later. 130 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 3: Okay, So let's say, after this little break, we're gonna 131 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 3: get to the legal will start with Ben and Jerry's It's. 132 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 2: So sad to me what's going on with Ben? 133 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're a chunky monkey fan. Huh. 134 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 135 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 3: It's like they're trying to do they try to do 136 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 3: good stuff and they're stemied or they're having trouble. Then 137 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 3: you're gonna run down all the details on Ben and 138 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 3: Jerry's after this on w b Z. 139 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. 140 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: Bradley J. For Dan. 141 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 3: If you want to find out more about me, if 142 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 3: you don't know me at all, go to Bradley J. 143 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 3: That's Jay dot org. And if you want to find 144 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 3: out more about Dean Michael Coin's Massachusetts School of Law, 145 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 3: which my brother loves and wants to go to. And 146 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 3: if I were a little younger and not on the radio, 147 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 3: I'd go myself. I would love it. Tell us a 148 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 3: little bit about the school before I move on. 149 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 4: Wow, we just finished the fall semester. We have a 150 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 4: new class starting the first week a second week of January. 151 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 4: We now so offer a one year Masters of Science 152 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 4: and Law degree, which we just in the fall received 153 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 4: approval for. So it's geared to business and law. So 154 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 4: make sure that both lawyers know more business, but especially 155 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 4: important that business people know a little more law to 156 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 4: keep them out of trouble. So where's finding some significant 157 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 4: interest in people having and want to know more about 158 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 4: the law and how it affects their business and how 159 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 4: they can keep themselves out of trouble, but they don't 160 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 4: intend to practice law and they have no desire to 161 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 4: stay three years, which is what it would take for 162 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 4: a typical law degree. 163 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: You have a different sort of mission statement in most 164 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: schools of law. Is that correct? 165 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 3: Oh? 166 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 167 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 4: What we try to do is offer opportunity to people 168 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 4: to prove their merits and to really look for a 169 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 4: much more diversified buyer people of all ages. You know, 170 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 4: I always tell people our youngest graduate was a twenty 171 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 4: year old Hispanic woman who graduated high school in college 172 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 4: by the time she was seventeen, and then went on 173 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 4: to law school. And then our oldest graduate was used 174 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 4: to be a seventy three year old retired nun and 175 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 4: ultimately then became a seventy eight year old retired service 176 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:22,319 Speaker 4: person who then ended up going into the district Attorney's 177 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 4: office and is still practicing law into his eighties. So 178 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 4: we look for a very different student population. We welcome 179 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 4: absolutely everyone to really come and make a contribution to 180 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 4: the community. So I'm very fortunate I get to have 181 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 4: a job that I love, like you have a job 182 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 4: that you love, and to be able to do that 183 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 4: and to really to make a difference in people's lives 184 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 4: and have them then make a difference in their communities 185 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 4: is really very fulfilling. And we're very lucky we have 186 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 4: the greatest students in the world. 187 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 3: Now getting back to there's one other angle that I 188 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 3: need to run by you when it comes to the 189 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 3: Monadnock boys. Okay, that sounds like a hardy boy mystery. Okay, 190 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 3: here's the situation. Let's say underage kids have a party, 191 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 3: this booze. 192 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: And the. 193 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 3: Smoking, then they smoking bed or somebody and the husband's down, 194 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: fire department comes. They were drinking in this scenario. They 195 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 3: were under age in the scenario. And you can tell me, 196 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: I don't know for sure, do would they or their 197 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 3: parents have to pay the fire department to rescue them 198 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 3: to put a fire out? 199 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: No? 200 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 4: Right, no, generally no. And that's the point you raise 201 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 4: is where is that line when you talk about slippery slope? 202 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 4: This is the problem with it is people. We expect 203 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 4: people to be careless at times. We should expect people 204 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 4: to do stupid things at times. And the question is 205 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 4: where is the line, dron When you have insurance or 206 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 4: you pay your taxes for public safety, where are you 207 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 4: going to draw the line to say Okay, now you've 208 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 4: got to reimburse us for what we've expended because of 209 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 4: your stupidity or carelessness, because unfortunately, you know, we see 210 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 4: people speeding all the time. I drove up here in 211 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 4: the rain and the ice, and there were people going 212 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 4: a lot faster than I was. And so what happens 213 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 4: when those people who act recklessly or carelessly? But don't 214 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 4: we expect that. Haven't we all done that at times 215 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 4: in our life? We wouldn't want to have to spend 216 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 4: fifty thousand and sixty one hundred thousand or even more 217 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 4: for a rescue from the fire department or from the 218 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 4: search and rescue teams up here. I understand the point. Generally, 219 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,199 Speaker 4: the problem is it's I guess I'm going to use 220 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 4: the old line from the law. It's like pornography. You 221 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 4: know it when you see it, when you're gone simply 222 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 4: too far. That's where the common sense should say, well, 223 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 4: at the minimum that the town, the state, whoever, shouldn't 224 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 4: have to bear that entire expense themselves either. 225 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: Okay, but I can see where they're representative might say, 226 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: you know what, we pay our taxes, right, and that 227 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 3: should cover us for when we make mistakes. 228 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 2: And then I could further say and make make my. 229 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: Party underage drinking house burning down situation and say would 230 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 3: they would they have to pay for that? 231 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 2: No, so why should we? 232 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 4: I don't go. I don't really disagree with you that much, 233 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 4: having represented teenagers many times and not exactly the situation 234 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 4: you're talking about, but drinking in the house and then 235 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 4: unfortunately tragic things ultimately happen. You know, you do you 236 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 4: want people to go to jail, first of all, criminally 237 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 4: for some of those things. But the point you raise 238 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 4: is a little different, is, well, okay, if we're not 239 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 4: going to put them in jail, should they be responsible 240 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 4: for the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in 241 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 4: damages that they've caused in a civil suit. That's one 242 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 4: thing lible to someone else. But now we're talking about 243 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 4: libel to the public authorities who are paid to try 244 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 4: and keep us safer, especially safer from our own stupid mistakes. 245 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 2: Well, they're from Massachusetts. I understand that. 246 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 3: I wonder if I wish have a try I wish 247 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 3: there would be a trial, even, you know, some sort 248 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 3: of trial that I could see on TV. 249 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 2: I would love to see that trip. 250 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 4: Well, if they're from Massachusetts, and it's a question of 251 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 4: whether New Hampshire will charge them. Then you know they're 252 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 4: gonna they're gonna tax and make those people in Massachusetts paid, right, Okay, Now. 253 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 3: Ben and Jerry's Ben and Jerry try to do the 254 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 3: right thing. They made some turned good ice cream, try 255 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 3: to raise a lot of money, help a lot of people. 256 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 3: And they, you know, the business got big and they 257 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 3: kind of wanted to change their position in the business, 258 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: bring other people in and a lot of times that's 259 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 3: just a bad thing. And maybe you can outline what 260 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 3: happened overall through their career and you know, the cliff 261 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 3: notes of that, and then drill down a little bit 262 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: on what the current situation is. 263 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 4: Started out as a real hot warming story. They made 264 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 4: all these different kinds of fancy ice cream that many 265 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 4: of us loved, chunky Monkey and cherry Garcia. And they 266 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 4: also not only made great ice cream, they had a 267 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 4: social purpose, a real mission to try and make sure 268 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 4: that the profits were used to benefit society and to 269 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 4: really improve our communities. And they had a very strong 270 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 4: public in function. As that company grew and grew and grew, 271 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 4: it also had from a standpoint of corporate governance. It 272 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 4: had a much fairer pay system than many so that 273 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 4: you know, in essence, the CEO, the chief executive officer 274 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 4: didn't make ten million dollars, while the guys working on 275 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 4: the line, the men and women there only made you know, 276 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 4: minimum wage and the like. So their pay structure also 277 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 4: was part of the social mission of the institution. But 278 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 4: then at some point, as they became profitable and the 279 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 4: founders got older, they decided that they were going to 280 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 4: cash out and take some of their hard earned profits 281 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 4: themselves for the company itself, and so they sold the 282 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 4: company and took a bag of money and what they 283 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 4: did and trying to structure that exchange, the company that 284 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 4: purchased them agreed that they would continue to be able 285 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 4: to have their social mission and do whatever virtually in 286 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 4: that vein that they chose to do without interference from 287 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 4: the new company. They set up an independent board that 288 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 4: would run the charitable foundation, and it was truly independent 289 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 4: of the companies, so that they could do as those 290 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 4: directors felt was important and they continue to take significant 291 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 4: positions on social causes. Well. The new owners at some 292 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 4: point decided that this wasn't good business for them to 293 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 4: be into some of these controversial projects that they wanted 294 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 4: to speak out on, and as Ben and Jerry sees it, 295 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 4: they decided to put more pressure on the company to 296 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 4: and the charitable foundation to keep their nose out of 297 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 4: some of these more controversial disputes, because as they saw it, 298 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,440 Speaker 4: it was hurting the company's bottom line. And so what's 299 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 4: happened now is that the board of directors of the 300 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 4: charitable Foundation has been changed significantly through the adoption of 301 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 4: term limits, in essence saying that the directors can only 302 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,480 Speaker 4: stay for so long, so many years consecutively, and a 303 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 4: lot of companies have term limits limiting to how many 304 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 4: times are what age you can serve too in order 305 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 4: to bring new ideas and to bring about change. And 306 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 4: so in some ways some would argue, well, that's not 307 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 4: a bad thing, but Ben and Jerry sees it as 308 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: a very bad thing because what it was done is 309 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 4: to violate the agreement that was made when the company 310 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 4: was sold to allow this charitable foundation to continue to 311 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 4: do independent projects and to support independent causes, even some 312 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 4: that would be seen as highly controversial. Well, if the 313 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 4: directors are then removed through this new policy, and now 314 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 4: Ben and Jerry says, well, that's all violates the contract 315 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 4: that we had when we sold the company to you folks, 316 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 4: and Magnum. You can't do this. We want the Border 317 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 4: Directors reinstated and we want to continue to do what 318 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 4: we're doing without interference for whatever social causes the Border 319 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 4: Directors ultimately support. So what you've got is a corporate 320 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 4: divorce in essence, and a pretty nasty one at this point, 321 00:18:55,960 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 4: because what you're talking about is whether the original agreement 322 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 4: has been breached, and if so, can the court then 323 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 4: award them relief in the form of reinstating the board 324 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 4: of directors, awarding money, damages. All of it is on 325 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 4: the table at this point, and it's obviously it tarnishes 326 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 4: the image of Ben and Jerry's as the social conscience 327 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 4: of a lot of causes. 328 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 3: This is the kind of thing where your contract is 329 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 3: really important. By the way, the Magnum ice Cream company 330 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,680 Speaker 3: is massive. If you go anywhere in Europe and even 331 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 3: other places and you need if you need something fast, 332 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 3: you can go into any little store and they have 333 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 3: coolers full of Magnum ice cream. They're a Dutch company, 334 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 3: and their corporate worth, as I see it here, market 335 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 3: cap as eight billion bucks, so they're pretty they're pretty 336 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,959 Speaker 3: big company. What I don't understand is why do they 337 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 3: want to mess with the do Gooding, Ben and Jerry? 338 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 3: Does it cost them anything? Why don't they just leave 339 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: them alone? They're making money? 340 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 4: Well, I think it's at least the latest dispute is 341 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 4: recounted in the media reports is that they weighed in 342 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 4: on this the Palestinian and Israeli issue with respect to 343 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 4: the sales of their ice cream and the like there. 344 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 4: And the problem is is that there are, obviously, and 345 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 4: that is one of them, there's some causes that companies 346 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 4: just don't want any part of. They see it as 347 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 4: the third rail in essence that win. There's no winning. 348 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 4: You're going to you're going to aggravate someone and you're 349 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 4: going to hurt the image of the company. At the 350 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 4: bottom line is we're in business, right, We're there to 351 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 4: make money. That's what businesses do. And the problem is, 352 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 4: though they've got an agreement set up that they are 353 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 4: now part of that said, well, there are some things 354 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 4: that you got to keep your nose out of and 355 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 4: and sometimes it's going to hurt. Well, they've decided that, well, 356 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 4: it's not we can we can alleviate some of this, uh. 357 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 4: And yeah, we're a big company. We could probably take 358 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 4: a small hit. But every business wants to make more money. 359 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 3: Uh. 360 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 4: And if you're hurting our bottom line is they must 361 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 4: likely see that this, this support of this cause is 362 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 4: hurting our bottom line. They don't want any part of it. 363 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 4: And obviously you would have thought that they would have 364 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 4: both sides. We might may have wanted to resolve this 365 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 4: without the glare of the media that it's now taking. 366 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 2: Right. You mentioned every company wants to make money, but. 367 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 3: Ben and Jerry weren't all about the money, and that's 368 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 3: that's where they were a little bit different. Of course 369 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 3: they had to make money at all. All right, thanks 370 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 3: for that update. After this break, we'll get to the 371 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 3: DMULA situation, see see how similar it is, and then 372 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 3: we'll also get to Brian Walls, Karen, Karen Reid, and. 373 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 2: I think there might be something else you busy. 374 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio. 375 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 3: Let's continue with Dean Michael Coyne of the Maschool of 376 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 3: Law and talk a little bit about what's going on 377 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 3: with the Demulles Artie de Mulish case. Very briefly, because 378 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: I got a lot of questions about the Waltz case 379 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 3: AFTERMN are there, what's going on with that and what 380 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 3: are the. 381 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:29,400 Speaker 4: Para It's another corporate divorce or at least a breakup. 382 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 4: Just like you've got the feuding parties in Ben and Jerry's, 383 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 4: you have the family feuding in Demulas, so that Arthur Demulis, 384 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 4: who has been the head of the market basket company 385 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 4: and grew it over the last few decades from a 386 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 4: small company to a very large company, a billion dollar company, 387 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 4: is now feuding with his sisters for whether he can 388 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 4: continue to run the company as he has. He's been 389 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 4: the president for well over a day, came now and 390 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 4: bought his cousin out with his sisters a number of 391 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 4: years ago when the company shut down, or at least 392 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 4: many people boycotted the company over what they thought at 393 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 4: that point was his unfair treatment. And now this time 394 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 4: there's a suit ongoing in Delaware where his sisters have 395 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 4: filed suit to for a declaratory judgment saying that they're 396 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 4: entitled to remove him over issues about succession planning, being 397 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 4: informing the board of his future plans and the sisters 398 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 4: who owned sixty percent of the company say that, well, 399 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 4: we want to be better informed about future growth, future 400 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 4: store openings, the annual budgets, expenditures, and we also want 401 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 4: to really sit down and have a serious discussion about 402 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 4: who is going to see He's in his seventies. None 403 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 4: of us live forever. Obviously, it becomes a fiduciary responsibility 404 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 4: by the board of directors to make sure that the 405 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 4: company is in good hands after he's gone, and he's 406 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 4: not ready to go, And what he would like to 407 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 4: see happen ultimately is his son and daughter, who have 408 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 4: worked for the company for years, ultimately succeed him. But 409 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 4: that's really a question for the board to decide at 410 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 4: some point who would be the next president of market Basket. 411 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 4: From a consumer standpoint, what we all want is the 412 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 4: company to continue to be run as well as it 413 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 4: has over the last couple of decades, with very good 414 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 4: prices for our grocery. So, to some extent, consumers have 415 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 4: a big stake in this fight, even though they don't 416 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 4: have a voice at the table. 417 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 3: Are they almost be kind of a different cloth than 418 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 3: a more resilient cloth. 419 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 2: If it were me, tell you what give me? 420 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know twenty fifteen, excuse me my cut 421 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,159 Speaker 3: of a billion bucks and I will just travel around. 422 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: I don't need this hassle. That's me. 423 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 3: There must be something in the self identify. He must 424 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: identify with the company, and wouldn't feel a part of 425 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 3: him would kind of die if you weren't involved with 426 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 3: that company. 427 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 2: He wouldn't be the man anymore. 428 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 4: Kind of Well, I think it goes beyond that. Actually, 429 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 4: I think it's about work ethic. It's about a different generation. 430 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 4: I mean, remember, his father grew this from a very 431 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 4: small store in Lowell, in the acre where they served 432 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,640 Speaker 4: the immigrant community, and it really did grow from a 433 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 4: tiny grocery store to a multi billion dollar business. So 434 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 4: I think it becomes part of who you are, and 435 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 4: especially having taken it from its infancy to this massive 436 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 4: company it is now. You know, it's like your child. 437 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 4: Although all of us parents have to talk ways and 438 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 4: give our children room to grow, I think it'd be 439 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 4: very It's very difficult, and it goes beyond just I 440 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 4: want to be the man. It's that I want to 441 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 4: make sure that this company survives and does well, and 442 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 4: I personally need to work. That's what that's my identity 443 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 4: at this point is this work ethic and this success 444 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 4: and making sure everything is done the way it's done 445 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 4: that it's been done for years and it has been 446 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 4: successful for us. So I think it's a very complicated 447 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 4: and obviously it's a complicated family dynamic here because the 448 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 4: three sisters and author are originally banded together to try 449 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 4: and make sure that their side of the family was 450 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 4: able to wrest control from his cousin's family. The two 451 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 4: brothers ultimately two brothers started this decades ago in Lowell, 452 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 4: So I mean that at one point they were all allies, 453 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 4: and now the problem is is that there's fighting over 454 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 4: and they're not illegitimate issues on either side. When you 455 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 4: talk about succession on a family owned business, that becomes 456 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 4: a real issue. I mean, they did a TV show 457 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 4: on this right that ran from many seasons. So it's 458 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:39,360 Speaker 4: an interesting dynamic, and I think the court and Delaware 459 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 4: has a lot to try and work through. It's unfortunate 460 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 4: that from both a litigation and a family issue, that 461 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 4: they couldn't come to some sort of sort of mediation 462 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 4: or resolution of the matter without having to engage all 463 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 4: of the lawyers and put all of this issue out 464 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 4: in the public domain. 465 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 2: Okay, next to the Wolfs case aftermath? 466 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 4: Okay, what was the I know, I'm moving right along 467 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 4: because I haven't No, no, no, not at all, not 468 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 4: at all. Well, what's interesting to me about the Walls 469 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 4: case as you talk to people, and I'd be interested 470 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 4: in knowing if your listeners feel any differently, Uh, is 471 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 4: that most people think he got exactly what he deserved. 472 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 4: That life in prison without the benefit of parole is 473 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 4: what he deserves because of what he what he's admitted doing, 474 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,719 Speaker 4: which is dismembering his wife and then lying to the 475 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 4: police for many days about her disappearance. 476 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 3: So can anyone ever ask I didn't see this, Why 477 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 3: would anyone dismember your yours body if you didn't kill them? 478 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 3: Why wouldn't you just call the police? But it's such 479 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: a giant hassle. For one thing, it's much easier just 480 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 3: to call the police. 481 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 4: Well, and it's even worse than that because it's you know, 482 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 4: he bought a hacks, he bought a hatchet, he bought 483 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 4: all sorts of equipment, tin snips, so to do it 484 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 4: as effectively as you possibly could. So, and you're right, 485 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 4: that was the problem with the defense from the outset 486 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 4: is that he on the very just about as we 487 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 4: finished jury selection, he acknowledged that, yes, I failed to 488 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 4: properly in turn my wife's body what I oftentimes referred 489 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 4: to it as is the dismemberment charge, and on multiple 490 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 4: occasions I lied to the police. So he faced three 491 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 4: charges initially, first agree murder, the failure to intern the 492 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 4: body properly, and then the lying to the police. 493 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: As you have put. 494 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 3: Out, three years seems like not that much for dismembering 495 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 3: a body. I know. 496 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 4: See that's an interesting thing, I think when we start 497 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 4: to think about it. So it's the two secondary charges. 498 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 4: It's twenty years up to twenty years for lying to 499 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 4: the police, but only three years in essence dismembering your 500 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 4: wife's body, failing to properly notify authorities and have them 501 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:33,479 Speaker 4: or have the enviroments or whoever properly dress the body 502 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 4: and take care of it, and then to dispose of 503 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 4: it properly by burial and the like. But that charge, 504 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 4: which we know what he did because of the significant 505 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 4: evidence that supports it, with the videos that show him 506 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 4: walking around home depot and selecting all sorts of equipment 507 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 4: he needed to the physical tools he got, which is 508 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 4: the hacks are the hatchet, the tin snips, the hammer. 509 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 4: When you look at the extent to which he obtained equipment, 510 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 4: none of which, by the way, were electrical. So all 511 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,239 Speaker 4: of these things he had to physically do this in 512 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 4: order to be able to dismember her body, and to 513 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 4: do it with such precision and degree that they never 514 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 4: found any portion of her body other than some blood 515 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 4: suggesting in one of the dumpsters. And he used dumpsters 516 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 4: in both the South and the North Shore. So, I mean, 517 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 4: when you look at how grow gruesome her end of 518 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 4: her after she was murdered, what her days ended up like, 519 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 4: and as her sister pointed out in her Victim's Impacts, 520 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 4: they and so they never have a place now where 521 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 4: they could go pray or say goodbye to her sister. 522 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 4: They never had the opportunity for a mass or whatever 523 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 4: religious service they might have to to honor and remember her. 524 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 4: I mean, it's really quite something when you think about 525 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 4: what he did to her family. But to me, it's 526 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 4: what's especially problematic is what he did to the three 527 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 4: young boys that were that were hers and his. I 528 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 4: mean they're now ten, eight and six. They were two, 529 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 4: four and six years old at the time. It's just 530 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 4: almost unconscionable that you know you could you could do 531 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 4: this to that degree, not just to your wife, but 532 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 4: to the other people that should have been the most 533 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 4: important people in the world to him. 534 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 3: Wait, a couple of things I can't believe, and you 535 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 3: don't need to comment on it, just because we're long 536 00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 3: on time. 537 00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 2: I can't believe he was. 538 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 3: I think that there will be cameras in the home 539 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 3: improvement store recorded. 540 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 2: But here's the thing. 541 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 3: I thought he might beat murder one because he did. 542 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 3: He bought that stuff after the fact, as I understand it, 543 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 3: which would take away malice a forethought or at least 544 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 3: a four thought part. 545 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's the question. And that's what I think 546 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 4: some people and we could focus on that. A first 547 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,479 Speaker 4: degree murder charge requires premeditation, some plotting, some planning, but 548 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 4: it doesn't necessarily require that long standing planning and plotting 549 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 4: that we sometimes think about and see in movies. 550 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: It can be five minute thing. 551 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, it can be minutes, and especially as the jury 552 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 4: was instructed. The use of a weapon is some evidence 553 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 4: of intent, because you obviously have to go get a 554 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 4: weapon to use it, and you know, the fact is 555 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 4: is that he certainly had a motive and multiple motives 556 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 4: actually for wanting her gone because he needed money. He 557 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 4: owed almost five hundred thousand dollars in restitution on an 558 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 4: at fraud charge, so he had to be trying to 559 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 4: figure out ways to n Plus he was due for 560 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 4: just about forty months in prison as well in federal 561 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 4: prison for that offense. But the premeditation was light. There's 562 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 4: no doubt about it, and that's the question. Some people 563 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 4: were saying, well, it could be second degree murder, where 564 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 4: he would then be eligible for parole. But I think again, 565 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 4: and this is why when I've talked to people about it, Yeah, 566 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 4: they are willing to acknowledge that the premeditation evidence might 567 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 4: be light. But her dismemberment was so gruesome. His after 568 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 4: the fact conduct was so cold and calculating that he 569 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 4: wasn't going to get the benefit of the doubt on 570 00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 4: the premeditation. 571 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 3: Now let's break, and then we'll just have a couple 572 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:07,680 Speaker 3: of comments on the Read case and the Reiner case. 573 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: On why You're on Night Side with Dan Ray on 574 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: WBS Boston's News Radio. 575 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: Back with Michael Quarantine and the Mas School of Law. 576 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 3: We have such a short period of time here that 577 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,520 Speaker 3: I just have one question on each of these two 578 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 3: for a fairly concise answer. Okay, this is a broad one. 579 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 3: What is the ninety seconds? What's the status of the 580 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 3: reed civil suit? 581 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 4: Well, they're really just beginning the discovery phase, which means 582 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 4: they'll be exchanging documents, they'll be depositions held at some 583 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 4: point further down the road. They're going to try and 584 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 4: gather as much information as possible from each side because 585 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 4: there's both suits and countersuits here to be able to 586 00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,959 Speaker 4: try and prove their case. And it's a very complicated 587 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 4: case because of all the sides and issue that they've raised. 588 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 4: I wouldn't expect it to go to trial, not in 589 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 4: twenty twenty six, probably the year after. I would say, Okay. 590 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,240 Speaker 3: Now we go to the Rhiner situation. Alan Jackson representing 591 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 3: Rob Ryer's son. First of all, Jackson must be happy 592 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 3: to have a client that's got deep pockets for a change. 593 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,919 Speaker 4: Well, and that's the question is who is paying him 594 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 4: for this case at this point? But someone is interested 595 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 4: enough to try and help the son, who obviously has 596 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 4: significant legal as well as other problems. 597 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 2: Why would a. 598 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 3: Judge block the autopsy findings from being well. 599 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 4: I think you'd want to be careful at this point 600 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 4: to not prejudice any potential jury. So until the sides 601 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 4: have an opportunity to examine the reports the toxicology and 602 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 4: then make their arguments to the court as to whether 603 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,160 Speaker 4: they think that should be held while the case is 604 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 4: pending or can be released in advance. I think the 605 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 4: court is doing it out of an abundance of caution 606 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 4: to make sure you don't overly prejudice a jury. I 607 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,760 Speaker 4: think it's going to be very difficult to impanel a jury, 608 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 4: but you will be able to. But it's obviously a 609 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 4: case that has gathered so much publicity coast to coast. 610 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 4: You can only imagine what it must be like in 611 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 4: the LA area to try and find people who will 612 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,439 Speaker 4: look past all the news reports on this case. 613 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:27,680 Speaker 2: At this point, well question about ninety seconds stance of that? 614 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: Why is it? 615 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 3: I mean, people are going to be looking to the 616 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 3: insanity case, but those are hard to prove. 617 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 4: Why because most people reject the idea that you're not 618 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 4: responsible for your actions, and the insanity defense standard is 619 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 4: quite high. It's that you really could not understand that 620 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 4: what you were doing was wrong. And that may be 621 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 4: problematic here for Rob Reiner's son, because you know, he 622 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 4: went and he tried to change his clothes and get 623 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,919 Speaker 4: rid of the blood, and he went to a hotel room. 624 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 4: There are steps he took subsequent to the murder which 625 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 4: would indicate, or at least the government would suggest it 626 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 4: indicates that what he knew was wrong because he was 627 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 4: trying to cover it up. He's not crazy, he's crazy 628 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 4: as a fox. 629 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 2: They just don't have a motive, do they. 630 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 4: Don't you need a motive, now, well, you don't need 631 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 4: a motive in order to prove murder. 632 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 2: No motive that would go to insanity. 633 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 4: Well, that that would be the argument is in fact, 634 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 4: these folks were his meal ticket. They took care of him, 635 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 4: tried to make sure they could get him this drug 636 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 4: treatment he needed. 637 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 3: It. 638 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 4: Obviously doesn't make any sense to any of us why 639 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 4: he would kill his parents in such a gruesome fashion. 640 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 4: It does show some evidence of a troubled mind, but 641 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 4: a troubled mind isn't necessarily enough to prove the insanity 642 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 4: defense tot least have that insanity defense be successful. 643 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:56,280 Speaker 2: Perfect. 644 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 3: I have to stop you there because I thank you 645 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 3: so much for taking time I'm out of your ski 646 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,279 Speaker 3: holiday to talk to all of us back here in 647 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 3: Boston on WBZ. Hopefully we'll have you in for the 648 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 3: two hours next time.