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Speaker 1: Brian Thomas, so's to think about care see morning, you're

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Speaker 1: happy to welcome good Welcome to the program. A really

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Speaker 1: good friend of my mom. So, her name's Jenny Zimmer,

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Speaker 1: and she, like my mom, experienced the horror that is Alzheimer's.

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Speaker 1: Her husband was diagnosed and therefore she ultimately became his caregiver.

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Speaker 1: She's written a book, The Man in the Mirror and

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Speaker 1: Other Strangers Looking at Alzheimer's Disease through the life and

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Speaker 1: experiences of a caregiver. Jenny, Welcome to the program. It's

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Speaker 1: a real pleasure having you on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, Brian. It's a pleasure to be here.

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Speaker 1: I obviously I wish the subject matter was a better one.

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Speaker 1: But having lived through this and I just lost my

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Speaker 1: father in December, as you well know, in the eighth

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Speaker 1: finally succumbed to the evil that is Alzheimer's. It is

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Speaker 1: you know. I've said before, I'll say it again. I

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Speaker 1: even said it this morning talking about you coming on

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Speaker 1: the program. It's worse than cancer. With cancer, many times

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Speaker 1: you at least have some measure of hope. There are

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Speaker 1: treatments that are coming out cutting edge and otherwise longer

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Speaker 1: and longer lives after cancer diagnosis, when you get on

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Speaker 1: Alzheimer's diagnosis, and I'm praying every day that they come

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Speaker 1: up with a cure. It's just it's a finite amount

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Speaker 1: of time you're staring at. You can't look back and

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Speaker 1: reflect on someone's life and og if they just didn't

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Speaker 1: smoke three packs of cigarettes, I wouldn't be dealing with this.

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Speaker 1: This is the ultimate cosmic crap shoot. Who gets it

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Speaker 1: and who doesn't. That's one of the worst things about it, Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: It sure is.

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Speaker 2: And I'll tell you what. Unfortunately, we all know there

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Speaker 2: is no good outcome when somebody has that diagnosis. There's

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Speaker 2: only one way out there not going to get better

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Speaker 2: and come home. And I too am praying that someday

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Speaker 2: that has changed. But you know, it's just everybody can

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Speaker 2: get it. And like I said in the book, Alzheimer's

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Speaker 2: is non discriminatory when it takes a victim, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I call them victims because they actually are victims

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Speaker 2: of a terrible disease that robs them of everything.

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Speaker 1: It does. What was so frustrating for me. Now you

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Speaker 1: remember Dad really well, and I always you know, we've

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Speaker 1: been grieving since he was diagnosed it's you know, it

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Speaker 1: was a long grief process. As you pointed out, once

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Speaker 1: the diagnosis is there, it's going to happen. It's just

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Speaker 1: sometime down the road. Could be ten years, could be three,

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Speaker 1: but they're ultimately going to succumb to the disease. But

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Speaker 1: knowing he was always the sharpest knife in the drawer,

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Speaker 1: you know, the quickest wit in the room, and to

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Speaker 1: have and to be to communicate when he was still

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Speaker 1: able to communicate on some level and struggling with you know,

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Speaker 1: who is that person like my mom? For example? There

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Speaker 1: were some days when he just thought she was some

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Speaker 1: nurse that was looming around and that you can't apply

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Speaker 1: logic and you can't apply reason to sort of try

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Speaker 1: to remind him. You think, well, all I need to

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Speaker 1: do is break out some of the wedding pictures and

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Speaker 1: show it to him. No, that doesn't.

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Speaker 2: Work, No, it doesn't. And actually it is hard because

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Speaker 2: nobody knows what's going on in their mind. I ask

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Speaker 2: about that once when I don't recall what the incident was,

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Speaker 2: but I said to one of the professionals out at artists,

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Speaker 2: does he know what's going on? And she said, no,

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Speaker 2: they only know what's in that minute, they just they're

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Speaker 2: only in that moment. But then I think back, and

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Speaker 2: I think nobody knows what they're experiencing. We don't know.

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Speaker 2: We know that they're very fearful, that they feel threatened

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Speaker 2: by a lot of things. Simple things like just sitting

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Speaker 2: down can be very frightening to an Alzheimer's victim because

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Speaker 2: they fear they're falling. And a lot of people that

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Speaker 2: find themselves in a caregiver position don't understand or they

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Speaker 2: maybe I guess they just don't know that that person

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Speaker 2: is very frightened and they're not withdrawing or they're not

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Speaker 2: on purpose not remembering. It's just that they don't know,

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Speaker 2: and we don't know what's going on in their mind

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Speaker 2: at that So it's just such a terrible thing because

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Speaker 2: you don't know how to deal with it, and you

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Speaker 2: just have to be patient and try to muddle through

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Speaker 2: the things like not remembering photos and not remembering faces.

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Speaker 2: I know your mother was a saint. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how she held up through all this. Your mother's an

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Speaker 2: awesome woman, by the way, I think the world of her,

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Speaker 2: and your dad was a great guy. He was fun

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Speaker 2: and oh my gosh, we've had so many laughs, and

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Speaker 2: I just can't say too often how what a great

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Speaker 2: couple they were, you know, And it was such a shame.

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Speaker 2: And your mom came and talked to me when I

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Speaker 2: think you and your sister had first mentioned to her

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Speaker 2: you had some concerns about your dad about maybe not

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Speaker 2: knowing directions to someplace, or maybe some of his driving

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Speaker 2: habits and his judgment was getting a little poor. Yes,

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Speaker 2: And she told me and asked because at that point

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Speaker 2: my husband was already into the process. He was My

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Speaker 2: husband was diagnosed in twenty sixteen, and at the time

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Speaker 2: of his diagnosis, he was already more than halfway through

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Speaker 2: the middle stages, as best we could figure. So we

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Speaker 2: don't know, well, one thing with Alzheimer's, you don't know

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Speaker 2: exactly when it starts, because the symptoms could be just

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Speaker 2: a lapse of memory, for you know, like you forgot

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Speaker 2: where you put your keys, you stuck the bread and

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Speaker 2: the refrigerator instead of the cabinet or whatever, so you

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Speaker 2: don't think about those things, and all at once it's

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Speaker 2: kind of full blown. So, you know, your mom and

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Speaker 2: I talked a lot about it, and thankfully, because I

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Speaker 2: had gone through this first, I was able to give

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Speaker 2: her some things which I think helped her maybe navigate

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Speaker 2: through some of the hurdles that you have to go

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Speaker 2: through with taking care of someone with Alzheimer's.

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Speaker 1: But it is a difficult task, and you know that's

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Speaker 1: I guess that's the reason you wrote the book, is

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Speaker 1: to help people understand what is in front of them

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Speaker 1: when they do find out that there's been a diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: The we were so worried, and we were very very

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Speaker 1: thankful that my mom was able to find a memory

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Speaker 1: care facila to put them in. You mentioned artists. We

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Speaker 1: were really, quite honestly, more worried about my mom there

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Speaker 1: at that time than we were about my dad. We

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Speaker 1: knew the writing was on the wall for Dad, but

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Speaker 1: Mom was just at the point of exhaustion. You could

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Speaker 1: see it in her face. This is I mean, you

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Speaker 1: know it, Jenny. It's a twenty four to seven reality

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Speaker 1: when your spouse of sixty years as Alzheimer's. You're up

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Speaker 1: at all hours of the night, cleaning them up, changing

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Speaker 1: their clothes, showering them, helping them up and down. It's

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Speaker 1: just that the work never ends, no, And you.

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Speaker 2: Know that is why I wrote the book, Brian, because

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Speaker 2: at the I don't know earlier on in that I

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Speaker 2: was experiencing such intense feelings. A lot of days, you

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Speaker 2: feel really inadequate to handle this all at once. You're

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Speaker 2: doing everything, and you don't feel competent to do some

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Speaker 2: of those things, and I think you feel lonely and

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Speaker 2: you feel really alone. I made the comment of my

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Speaker 2: book that I believe i'd put it in there where

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Speaker 2: I felt like I was living alone sometimes and you

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Speaker 2: feel frustrated and you can't help but get aggravated at

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Speaker 2: some of the things, but you can't show any of that.

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Speaker 2: So being a caregiver is extremely stressful. And one of

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Speaker 2: the things when I realized that I had all those

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Speaker 2: raw feelings, I thought, other people are just coming into this,

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Speaker 2: and they, like me, I did not know this is

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Speaker 2: what they could expect. And I thought, if I could

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Speaker 2: just tell people, you're going to feel all these things,

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Speaker 2: You're going to feel hurt and angry and lost and fearful,

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Speaker 2: and it's normal to feel that way and you can't

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Speaker 2: help it, So don't feel don't feel guilty because you're

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Speaker 2: feeling these things. It doesn't change your love for the

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Speaker 2: person you're caring for. If it's a spouse or a

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Speaker 2: parent or someone close to you. It doesn't change that relationship.

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Speaker 2: It just means that you're overwhelmed. And I thought, if

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Speaker 2: I could just tell other people, you're going to feel

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Speaker 2: all these things and you don't.

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Speaker 3: You shouldn't feel.

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Speaker 2: Guilty about feeling it, and you need to deal with

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Speaker 2: those feelings in some way because it is such a stressful,

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Speaker 2: debilitating thing for the caregiver. So your mom, Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: was worried about your mom because she just had so

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Speaker 2: much and she had she unfortunately was having to go

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Speaker 2: over there three times a day to feed your dad,

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Speaker 2: you know. But then on the other hand, you stop

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Speaker 2: and think, well, she loved wanted to take care of him,

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Speaker 2: he loved her. Because one thing we have to remember

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Speaker 2: is that even though they're broken, they're still somewhere inside

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Speaker 2: of that person that we knew and loved and that

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Speaker 2: we have been with all those years. So that person

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Speaker 2: is still there. They just can't come out well.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things my mom was just so

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Speaker 1: good about and this is one of those do they

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Speaker 1: know what's going on? Are they aware? Moments? But she

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Speaker 1: was always even if he was in communicado, and quite

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Speaker 1: often many days we'd visit him, and he wouldn't say

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Speaker 1: a word. His eyes were sort of half open or

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Speaker 1: just laying there in the bed. She was always able

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Speaker 1: to get him to say I love you when she

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Speaker 1: would leave. I mean, I couldn't get it to get

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Speaker 1: him to do it quite often my sister. But when

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Speaker 1: it came to my mom, she would just are you

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Speaker 1: going to say I love you? You're going to tell

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Speaker 1: me you love me? And he would be able to

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Speaker 1: whisper it out, which sort of gives you that little

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Speaker 1: glimmer of hope that, well, maybe he is aware to

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Speaker 1: some degree.

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Speaker 2: They are, you know, a few days before my husband actually,

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Speaker 2: I think it might have even been the day his

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Speaker 2: last day on earth. When I went in to see

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Speaker 2: him that afternoon at my regular time, I kissed him

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Speaker 2: and he pursed his lips, and I said. The hospice

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Speaker 2: nurse was in the room, and I said to her, Oh,

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Speaker 2: he pursed his lips when I kissed him. She said, oh,

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Speaker 2: he wants to kiss you back, He's just too weak

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Speaker 2: and doesn't have the strength to do it. So I

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Speaker 2: think they are in there. They do know, and they

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Speaker 2: do respond to love. And sometimes if you know people

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Speaker 2: that have Alzheimer's any other forms of dementia too, are

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Speaker 2: often agitated, they're calm, and when that happened, the best

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Speaker 2: thing you can do is just to sit with them.

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Speaker 2: My husband loved to have his head massaged, and I

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Speaker 2: would almost every day. I would massage his head for it,

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Speaker 2: and he was it was so content. And if they're

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Speaker 2: agitated or irritated and difficult, sometimes you can just put

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Speaker 2: lotion on their legs or their arms, or just hold

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Speaker 2: their hand or rub their head or something and they

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Speaker 2: feel that love that you're conveying through that. So it's

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Speaker 2: just you learn those things, I think by being with

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Speaker 2: the people you love and caring for them, because it

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Speaker 2: hurts to see that happening to them. It hurts still.

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Speaker 2: My husband's been gone almost four years, and there's not

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Speaker 2: a day goes by that I don't miss him and

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Speaker 2: that I don't think of him, and I don't wish

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Speaker 2: I could have done more for him.

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Speaker 1: Well, And as you point out, the disease is so insidious,

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Speaker 1: there's only so much anybody is capable of doing. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes you know the caring for the Alzheimer's patient victim

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Speaker 1: as you like to refer to them, and I agree

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Speaker 1: with you caring for that Alzheimer's victim. Sometimes the caregiver

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Speaker 1: does not survive the life of the Alzheimer's victim. The

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Speaker 1: care and the stress and the emotion, and where's a

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Speaker 1: person out so so much that they pass on before

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Speaker 1: the Alzheimer's afflicted person.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mentioned that in the book, and I said

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Speaker 2: the way I put it in the book because that

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Speaker 2: number is pretty high. I said, over fifty percent of

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Speaker 2: caregivers die before the person they're caring for. That number

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Speaker 2: is actually more like sixty five percent. But I didn't

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Speaker 2: want to say that because that's almost unbelievable. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I've had I spoke to a group earlier this week.

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Speaker 2: It was a support group. And by the way, anybody

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Speaker 2: that's dealing with somebody that has Alzheimer's that caregivers should

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Speaker 2: get into a support group somewhere. It's so helpful just

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Speaker 2: to be able to talk about your feelings and experiences

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Speaker 2: with others who know what you're talking about, because you

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Speaker 2: have to live it to really understand it. But I

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Speaker 2: spoke to this group the other day and one of

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Speaker 2: the questions that I had, and I hear this often,

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Speaker 2: people say, how do you know when it's time to

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Speaker 2: put that person into a facility, and I always tell them,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's different for everybody, and all you can do.

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Speaker 2: I think the biggest measurement for knowing when to do

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Speaker 2: that is whether you are maxed out. When you get

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Speaker 2: to the point where you are so totally physically, emotionally

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Speaker 2: and just totally you're all used uff, you just can't

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Speaker 2: go any further. There's a time. I think my breaking

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Speaker 2: point was one night when we had a particular incident

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Speaker 2: and it was like two or three in the morning,

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Speaker 2: and I literally did not know what to do. There

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Speaker 2: is no you can't call somebody at two or three

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Speaker 2: in the morning and say help me, because there's nothing

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Speaker 2: they can do. And I went into our kitchen and

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Speaker 2: actually beat my fist on the counter and wailed. I

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Speaker 2: just was that. That was my, I think my breaking moment,

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Speaker 2: and I knew at that moment that I could not

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Speaker 2: go any further, and I didn't want to put him

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Speaker 2: in a facility, but I knew that I couldn't take

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Speaker 2: care of him. And you need to be able to

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Speaker 2: feel that you can keep that person safe and that

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Speaker 2: you can just navigate through the day with them and

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Speaker 2: one person can't do that alone. You need more people

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Speaker 2: like the facility can offer. So Artists was wonderful everyone there.

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Speaker 2: And I volunteer at Artists on Friday afternoons most weeks,

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Speaker 2: and so many of those people just want somebody to

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Speaker 2: sit with them. I sat two weeks ago. I sat there.

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Speaker 2: One lady took my hand and she said, oh, your

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Speaker 2: hand is cold, and I said yes, and she wrapped

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Speaker 2: my hand in the corner of her robe, which she

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Speaker 2: was wearing at the time. And the lady on the

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Speaker 2: other side and me took my the hand. So I

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Speaker 2: sat for a hour between these two little ladies. Both

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Speaker 2: are pretty far along with their Alzheimer's. One doesn't even

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Speaker 2: speak much English, so you can't talk with her a

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Speaker 2: whole lot. But I sat there, one with my hand

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Speaker 2: wrapped in her robe, patting my hand occasionally, the other

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Speaker 2: one just holding my hand and stroking it. And they

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Speaker 2: were content, and I was content.

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Speaker 1: That's beautiful.

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Speaker 2: You just you give them what they need, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's what you need to amen to that.

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Speaker 1: Jenny Zimmer, the name of the book, The Man in

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Speaker 1: the Mirror and other strangers looking at Alzheimer's disease through

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Speaker 1: the life and experiences of a caregiver. Fantastic information here

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Speaker 1: for anybody who's struggling with this or who is getting

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Speaker 1: ready to deal with it, but also for folks that

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Speaker 1: are dealing with other forms of disease and they are

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Speaker 1: the caregiver in their lives. Get a copy of the book.

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Speaker 1: It'll be a fifty five care sea dot com on

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Speaker 1: my blog page. Joe put it off there. Easily get

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Speaker 1: a copy of it and get to Amazon and get

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Speaker 1: a copy as well, if you don't want to wait. Jenny,

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Speaker 1: it's a pleasure. Thank you for being such a dear

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Speaker 1: friend to my mom and helping her through these very

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Speaker 1: difficult times. Donald Barclay, I've got a book to talk about.

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Speaker 1: By way of background, he's a deputy University librarian at

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Speaker 1: the University of California Universities, author of numerous articles and

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Speaker 1: books over the course of his career on topics ranging

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Speaker 1: from the literature of the American West to children's literature

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Speaker 1: and library and information science. Most recent book, Fake News,

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Speaker 1: Propaganda and Plain Old Lives, How to Find Trustworthy Information

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Speaker 1: in the Digital Age, talked about that previously. Got a

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Speaker 1: new book to talk about disinformation, the nature of facts

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Speaker 1: and lies in the post truth era. Donald Barkley, it's

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Speaker 1: a pleasure to have you back in the fifty five

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Speaker 1: KREC Morning Show. Welcome sir, and Happy President's Day.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, Happy President City to thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Brian, Well, you dressed it previously. In how to find

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Speaker 1: trustworthy information the Digital Age, I'm not so sure that

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Speaker 1: most American people are willing to engage in the expenditure

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Speaker 1: of time and critical thinking to find out inferret information.

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Speaker 1: So they tend to listen to the ten second SoundBite

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Speaker 1: they get maybe from the local or evening news, if

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Speaker 1: they even take time to follow the look or evening news.

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Speaker 1: I'm convinced that the vast majority of Americans get their

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Speaker 1: power politics through memes these days. Is this obviously is

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Speaker 1: a as a legitimate trend going on, isn't it?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: I think it is, and you know it's it is

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Speaker 5: it's hard to to take the time to really get

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Speaker 5: at the truth of something, because you know, the more

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Speaker 5: you you really think about the nature of what is truth?

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Speaker 5: What is factual? Who should I trust? What influence does

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Speaker 5: at work? You know, money, of course is a huge influence.

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Speaker 5: Why do you know somebody has a has a money

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Speaker 5: interest in telling me something.

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Speaker 4: It's it becomes really difficult.

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Speaker 5: And one of the points I've made in my writing

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Speaker 5: is you have to, I think, think about what what

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Speaker 5: do you really use information for?

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Speaker 4: What do we really use it for in the most

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Speaker 4: important way?

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Speaker 5: And I think the most important thing we use information

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Speaker 5: for when we really think about it, is decision making,

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Speaker 5: and whether it's a private decision like should I invest

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Speaker 5: my money in crypto or more of a public decision,

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Speaker 5: you know, what should we do about firearms or abortion

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Speaker 5: or you know, name your topic. We make decisions based

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Speaker 5: we should make decisions based on information. And I think

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Speaker 5: the thing we have to as people only have so

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Speaker 5: much time, is to think about what is how important

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Speaker 5: is this decision? And obviously the more important a decision is,

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Speaker 5: and the more potentially devastating the content that the consequences are,

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Speaker 5: then those are the things we really need to spend

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Speaker 5: more time on.

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Speaker 4: The example I've given in the.

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Speaker 5: Past is if somebody offered you a piece of a

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Speaker 5: candy bar you've never tried before. I use example of

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Speaker 5: the Idaho spud, which is a candy bar that's mostly

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Speaker 5: we only found an Idaho and probably don't see it

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Speaker 5: in Cincinnati very much. If I came up and offered

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Speaker 5: you an Idaho spud bar and it's in the wrapper

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Speaker 5: and everything, and maybe you know me, but you know,

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Speaker 5: maybe I'm not your best friend anything, but you kind

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Speaker 5: of know I'm an okay guy, you'd probably be okay

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Speaker 5: just eating it without really researching it, right, I mean,

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Speaker 5: it's not a huge risk.

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Speaker 4: Either you like it or you don't.

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Speaker 5: But if I came up and said, I found these

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Speaker 5: mushrooms today, why don't you try them for dinner, that's

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Speaker 5: something you'd want to research a little more, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: and make sure that you're not eating something that's going

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Speaker 5: to kill you. And I think those that's the kind

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Speaker 5: of analysis we have to put into what's what's the

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Speaker 5: one of the potential consequences of this decision, whether it's

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Speaker 5: a personal consequence, you know, in California, should I put

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Speaker 5: solar on my house or or not?

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Speaker 1: Well, hasn't the this this internet agent which we live

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Speaker 1: made that more difficult? And I think of all the

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Speaker 1: pluses and minuses I and I think probably the powers

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Speaker 1: that be when the Internet first came online, were you know,

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Speaker 1: this massive information. Oh my god, the general public is

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Speaker 1: going to know exactly what bills are. They'll be able

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Speaker 1: to read the language of any bill that we propose.

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Speaker 1: They don't have to go to the Library of Congress

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Speaker 1: or find some you know, sort of written legislative outlet service,

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Speaker 1: and you can go across the board on any subject

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Speaker 1: matter and going back to your mushroom thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's so much information online, I presume about mushrooms and

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Speaker 1: whether it poison or not. We can be confused on that.

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Speaker 1: It's like information overload. So it's the problem. It's better

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Speaker 1: because we've got access to the key information, but it's

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Speaker 1: worse because we have access to not only the key information,

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Speaker 1: but every you know, sphincter in the world. We all

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Speaker 1: know what they're everybody's.

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Speaker 5: Got one, right right, Yes, it's very In my book

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Speaker 5: this information in one of the chapters, I talk about

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Speaker 5: how in the early days of the Internet there was

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Speaker 5: this incredible optimism and I was actually part of this.

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Speaker 5: I'm not an engineer anything, but I was there very

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Speaker 5: early on using the Internet before there was a web,

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Speaker 5: and the the optimism about what it was going to

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Speaker 5: be because there wouldn't be gatekeepers anymore, there wouldn't be

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Speaker 5: people filtering our information, whether it's the library who only

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Speaker 5: buy certain books, or Walter Curnkaive or or whatever. You know,

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Speaker 5: we're going to be able to get all this information.

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Speaker 5: But it's also interesting there were two early on, two

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Speaker 5: really different ideas about the Internet that conflicting, which I

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Speaker 5: think speak to the fact that we still have conflict

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Speaker 5: on information going on. And there was one idea that

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Speaker 5: was kind of the cyber liberal idea, which was sort

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Speaker 5: of like, I don't mean to be too flip about it,

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Speaker 5: but we're all going to hold hands and dance around

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Speaker 5: the peace tree with all this information because we're all

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Speaker 5: going to be better people and we'll all get along

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Speaker 5: and we'll all.

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Speaker 1: See the truth. We'll see the light, right right.

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Speaker 5: And then the other one was the Internet is this

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Speaker 5: place where there's not going to be any government or

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Speaker 5: any rules. It's going to be a perfect libertarian experiment,

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Speaker 5: because people really believed once they even though the Internet

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Speaker 5: was created by the government governments, mostly the US government,

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Speaker 5: but other governments were involved. It was created by the

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Speaker 5: government as an experiment, as a scientific experiment.

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Speaker 4: For twenty thirty years before it was really unleashed. People

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Speaker 4: believe that.

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Speaker 5: The government was going to be able to control it well,

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Speaker 5: we certainly discovered that governments sure can control the Internet,

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Speaker 5: and you know, just look at China, look at Iran,

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Speaker 5: look at Cuba. You know they could throw it quite effectively,

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Speaker 5: mir and mar So yes, there it didn't play out

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Speaker 5: to us.

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Speaker 4: Just great optimism. And I think what we're dealing with

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Speaker 4: is that.

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Speaker 5: So much information and so many different ways of accessing

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Speaker 5: it in so many voices.

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Speaker 4: It is really changing.

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Speaker 5: The way we think in much the same way something

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Speaker 5: we haven't experienced really for about five hundred years since

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Speaker 5: printing form movable type really came on and changed just

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Speaker 5: from a mostly oral culture to a written culture, and

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Speaker 5: that we're now moving into what's been.

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Speaker 4: Called a post lyric culture, which is still has writing.

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Speaker 5: Writing is still going to be important, but it's a

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Speaker 5: different way of sharing and processing and thinking about information.

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Speaker 5: And we as a people are still struggling with that

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Speaker 5: because it's it came so fast and it's so powerful.

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Speaker 1: It did. And I'm glad you brought up the printing

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Speaker 1: press because that was viewed as a threat, most largely

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Speaker 1: to religion and people everybody can read, they can read

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Speaker 1: for themselves, interpret themselves. And I have to listen to

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Speaker 1: the man in front of the room, just one illustration

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Speaker 1: of the concern that the powers that be had about

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Speaker 1: the printing printing press. Same thing goes for the Internet.

436
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: Oh my god, we're not going to be ab to

437
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: control the narrative. Walter Kronkite is not going to be

438
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 1: the guy with nine hundred different articles to read and

439
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: he picks three of them for whatever political bias he

440
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 1: might have. That's what we used to rely on. So

441
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,160
Speaker 1: now the problem seems to be that, in an effort

442
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 1: to sort of reign in conspiracy theories and misinformation and

443
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: all that kind of thing, what we find out is

444
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: the powers that be, the facebooks, the twitters and those

445
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 1: who control them, their lords and masters, perhaps through the government,

446
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: are trying to change the narrative to what they want

447
00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: us to read. Now, the problem with that component is

448
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: we now aren't even trusting anything we read on the Internet.

449
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: Everything becomes this conspiracy theory. We don't trust the factfinders anymore.

450
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's I mean, that's a challenge, sure, because there

451
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 5: are of any voices, and it really is hard, you know,

452
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,479
Speaker 5: who really knows what, Who do we trust?

453
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 4: Who can we really listen to? And part of that

454
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 4: I think has to do with and I don't really

455
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 4: see it as a conspiracy.

456
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 5: I think it as just the way society and people

457
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:22,160
Speaker 5: work is the you know, we lived in the Industrial age,

458
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 5: and industry hasn't gone away, just like we lived in

459
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,280
Speaker 5: an agricultural age. Well, agriculture hasn't gone away either. We

460
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 5: had agriculture and then we had agriculture and industry, and

461
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 5: now we have the information age, and information has become

462
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,959
Speaker 5: more valuable than it ever was. And you know, there

463
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 5: was industry before the Industrial Age. It was smaller and

464
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 5: less important. But starting around in the eighteenth century and

465
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 5: the seventeen hundreds in Europe mostly industry became much more

466
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 5: important and it continued to be important for a long time.

467
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 5: And now information is kind of stepping in and part

468
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,920
Speaker 5: of what we're seeing in because information is so valuable

469
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 5: really dollars and cents, and with digital technology and the

470
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 5: newness of all of this TikTok and all these other things,

471
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 5: it's kind of like a gold rush for information. Yeah,

472
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 5: in that you've got all these people out there and

473
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 5: if you can hit the sweet spot.

474
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 4: If you can find this pocket of gold, you can

475
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 4: become rich and famous. And I think part.

476
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 5: Of the allure is that the desire to become rich

477
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 5: and famous, which has always been around. I mean, in

478
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 5: nineteen thirty eight, you could go to Hollywood and sit

479
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 5: around looking cute and maybe you'll.

480
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: Get discovered and become rich and famous. Right, Well, now

481
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 4: you can do it from your bedroom.

482
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 6: And you're design and app Oh and if I want, yeah, right,

483
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 6: and or get on TikTok, and if I say the

484
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 6: right magic combination of things and act in the right

485
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 6: magic way, I can become rich and famous and suddenly

486
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 6: whether what I say is truthful or not doesn't really

487
00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 6: matter very much.

488
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 1: Listen to the recent South Park episode on that you

489
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 1: know you're oh yeah.

490
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 4: I just see it, But I can certainly believe those

491
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 4: guys would would catch on to that.

492
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: Of course, in an effort to become famous on TikTok,

493
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: then you have this sort of you know, uh image

494
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: that you create. It may not be you, but it's

495
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: appealing to the broader masses. So in an effort to

496
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: appeal to the broader masses, you become something you're not

497
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: to dupe the broader masses into liking you. That to

498
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,200
Speaker 1: me suggests some level of narcissism. Honestly, Donald Barclay, author

499
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: of Disinformation, Nature, Facts and Lies and post through the

500
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: Era that I don't get you think that I'd be

501
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: somewhat narcissistic being a radio program host. That's the worst

502
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,440
Speaker 1: part of my job. It's being a public figure. I

503
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: hate social media. But I'm not interested in a bunch

504
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: of people liking me. I'm just interested in looking for

505
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: the truth, logic and reason. There are what I live by.

506
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 1: So is it part of the Is it our psychology

507
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: that's a problem here, that this Internet has created a

508
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: vehicle for us to appeal to our our lesser traits.

509
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, every.

510
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 5: One of us, and I'm including myself. I'm not better

511
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 5: than anybody else. Believe me, I question myself all the time.

512
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 5: We all have cognitive biases, and there are ways of thinking.

513
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 5: They may be genetic, they may be formed by our

514
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 5: families growing up.

515
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 4: They may be phoned by.

516
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 5: Financial pressures, what have you. But there are ways of

517
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 5: seeing the world.

518
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 4: And we we feel good.

519
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 5: It's almost like a drug. When something feeds our cognitive

520
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 5: bias and and makes us feel like we're right and

521
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 5: it speaks to what we think. It makes us feel

522
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 5: really good, and it makes us very hard for us

523
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 5: to question whether what we're hearing.

524
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 4: Is true or not.

525
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 1: The old echo chamber kind yeah, kind.

526
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 4: Of like that echo chamber is part of it. And

527
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:53,360
Speaker 4: and of course.

528
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 5: In the digital age, it becomes really easy to surround

529
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 5: yourself with.

530
00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 4: People who who say things that you like to hear.

531
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,360
Speaker 5: You know, well, I listened to a British podcaster named

532
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 5: Tim har Harmon Harford, and he's a British economist and

533
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 5: he's he's kind of I would say he's kind of the.

534
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 4: Middle of the road. Some people might say he's a

535
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 4: little liberal. I don't know.

536
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 5: And he talks about not so much about economics, but

537
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,920
Speaker 5: he talks about mistakes that people have made and how

538
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 5: these Mistaic Scott made and stuff, and he's a really

539
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 5: interesting guy. But I know that he speaks to my

540
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 5: cognitive biases and that's why I like it. And somebody

541
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 5: else with a different set of cognitiases probably listened to

542
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 5: Tim Harford and go, oh, I can poke holes in

543
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 5: what he's saying you.

544
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where debate comes in, though Donald doesn't it.

545
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: If you think you can poke holes in a guy's

546
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: theory and you can have a sit down discussion and

547
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: walk through what you believe and contrasted with what they believe,

548
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: you can come to some conclusion whether which side is

549
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: right or at least part company saying, okay, we're going

550
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: to have to gree to disagree. That's not what the

551
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 1: internet does, you know. The flip side of what you said.

552
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: People want to be haress, they want to be liked,

553
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: They want to you know, yes, hurrah hurrah, that's one thing.

554
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: But the flip side is also true. They don't want

555
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: to hear negative criticism, and they get all freaked out

556
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: and anxious when someone has the audacity to criticize them

557
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: on social media. You know, well that's gonna come with

558
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: a territory.

559
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 5: Right right, And you know, and I do, even though

560
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 5: like I like Tim Harford and I really recommend him.

561
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 5: Actually he's a really interesting guy. I try to think

562
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 5: very carefully about, Okay, what what's missing here? You know,

563
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 5: because whenever we tell a story, we can only tell.

564
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 4: Certain parts of it. You know.

565
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 5: Indeed, and I don't know if you've ever written a book,

566
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 5: but no, but there's two things that happen when you

567
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 5: write a book.

568
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 4: You know, unless you're a raging egoist, and then you're

569
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 4: just dancing around the room, and believe me, I don't

570
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 4: dance around the room when my book comes out. But

571
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 4: there's two things that happened. The first part is you

572
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 4: go through the book and you go, oh, crap, I

573
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 4: wish I hadn't said that.

574
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 5: And then the second part is, oh, there, I should

575
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 5: have said this. And often there's a lot more I

576
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 5: should have said this than oh I shouldn't have said that,

577
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 5: because there's always more to the story, and there's always

578
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 5: more I think. And I would encourage anybody who reads

579
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 5: my book, and you know, oh, please read my book.

580
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 4: I get a couple of sheckls. You know I'm in

581
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 4: the game too.

582
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 5: I'm not talking to you on this this conversation because

583
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 5: I want to sell less copies of my book.

584
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: Right right right, Well, it's described every day when the

585
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,280
Speaker 1: microphone turns off for me, gosh, I wish I'd have

586
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: phrased that differently, or I wish I could unring that bell,

587
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: or I wish I had elaborated on it before we

588
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: part company. David, It's fascinating conversation. Great book, Disinformation in

589
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 1: the Nature of Facts Lies in the post truth era.

590
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: My listeners can get it online at fifty five care

591
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 1: se dot com. We've also been to hear this conversation.

592
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: Who do you recommend read the book?

593
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 5: I think anybody who who's interested in in this particular book.

594
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:41,400
Speaker 4: The first book I wrote.

595
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 5: Fake News, was kind of a how to about how

596
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 5: do you recognize when somebody's yank in your chain?

597
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: That right?

598
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: Basically what that was about.

599
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 5: This book is more about more of philosophy, philosophical about

600
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 5: why do we.

601
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 4: Why do we get tricked?

602
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 5: Why do we Why does our mind let us fall

603
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 5: for things? You know, and we all have fallen for things,

604
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 5: and and we all we all have the capability to

605
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 5: change our minds too about things, you know.

606
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: Helping us with introspection maybe right, yeah, there you gout,

607
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, and just think about things we take for granted.

608
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 5: You know, we often all of us talk about something logical,

609
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 5: that's just logical.

610
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 4: But oftentimes when you start picking it apart, you go, well, actually,

611
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 4: there's more to it than that, you know, indeed.

612
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 5: Quite as cut and dried. And oftentimes when people say

613
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 5: that's just common sense, maybe not, Maybe there's another way

614
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 5: to look at it. Indeed, I think that's an important

615
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 5: it's important to be curious and it's you know what,

616
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 5: it's important to have your principles too.

617
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 4: Everybody can have lines they don't cross.

618
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 5: That's fine, but understand that you've drawn those lines, and

619
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 5: understand those lines are not the same for everybody.

620
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 4: And I think that's really important.

621
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: Hey man, I'll tell you what. It's been real fun

622
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: talking with your Donald Barclay, author of and please get

623
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: a copy fifty five carecy dot Com Disinformation The Nature

624
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: of Facts Lies in the post truth era. Thanks again

625
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: for coming on the program. Keep going the great work. Donald.

626
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure having you on the program.

627
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

628
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 1: You probably read his books before. He is a best

629
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: selling author's name is John crib He's written about subjects

630
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: ranging from history to education. His prior novel Old Abe

631
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: hailed for its vivid portrayal of Abraham Lincoln, and his

632
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: previous work includes co authoring The American Patriots Almanac and

633
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: The Educated Child, both New York Times bestseller, co editing

634
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: The Human Odyssey three volume World History Techs, and developing

635
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 1: online history courses. He's appeared on numerous TV radio and

636
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: podcast shows, such as c SPAN, Washington Journal, Fox, News

637
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: and Fox and Friends, and his writing has been published

638
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: in my favorite paper of the Wall Street Journal, USA Today,

639
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: Fox News. Welcome to the program, John crib We're here

640
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: to talk about his new book, which is called The

641
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: Rail Splitter. It's it's let's see here, I've lost my

642
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: subtitle there, John, Welcome to the program. It's good to

643
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: have you on the fifty five KRC Morning Show.

644
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 7: Hey Brian, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.

645
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: No, my pleasure. I had to ask you about this

646
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: because it's described as a work of historical fiction. So

647
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: what you, I guess, have done, and please explain to

648
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: my listener. You have Abraham Lincoln's solid history, which you

649
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: could turn into, you know, a history book which would

650
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: not take liberties with facts, but you tell a story

651
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: while relying on real history in your book, The Rail Splitter.

652
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 7: Correct, Yes, exactly, it's it is historical fiction, but it

653
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 7: very closely tracks his life. As a matter of fact,

654
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 7: there's a date at the top of each chapter saying

655
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 7: we need to know when these things were happening. But

656
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 7: it starts him off as a teenager on the Indiana

657
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 7: Frontier and then you're just at a side as he

658
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 7: makes his way from the Indiana Woods to the Illinois

659
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 7: Prairies and then up through the Lincoln Douglas Debates eighteen

660
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 7: fifty eight right to the threshold of the White House.

661
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 7: So it's an amazing story, and it's an important story

662
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 7: in a lot of ways. It's the story of the

663
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 7: American dream.

664
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: Well, can I ask you, you're obviously a wildly successful

665
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: author when you're writing a work versus a work of

666
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: just true history, which doesn't create a story of a

667
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: fiction story. Is it easier to write a work of

668
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: historical fiction? Because you know, I'm challenged. I couldn't write

669
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: a novel or a work of of nonfiction, but I

670
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: guess it probably lends itself to your creative process. But

671
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: having to stick with the historical facts about Abraham Lincoln,

672
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 1: I imagine that represents some challenge itself. Which is it

673
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,880
Speaker 1: easier to write a historical fiction book or is it harder?

674
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 7: You know, I would I'm not sure.

675
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 4: I don't know.

676
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 7: I would say it's easier or harder. The nonfiction is

677
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 7: harder because you know, you really want to stick to

678
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 7: the facts and get it, you know, make sure it's

679
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 7: absolutely right. So there's a kind of higher standard there.

680
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,640
Speaker 7: Fiction is harder and that you got, you know, you're

681
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 7: exercising your creativity and your imagination more so. That's there's

682
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 7: challenges about and this had both of it. This is

683
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 7: kind of challenging on both fronts because I really wanted

684
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 7: this to be right. You know, He's not chasing vampires

685
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 7: or killing zombies that kind of stuff, And this is

686
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 7: the real, real Lincoln. And I've got about, I think

687
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 7: probably about three hundred books about Abraham Lincoln his times

688
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 7: just on my bookshelves here at home. And I've spent

689
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,479
Speaker 7: many years, you know, researching his life and in him,

690
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 7: and so, uh, you know, I really wanted to, as

691
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 7: I say, stick to the to the story. But what

692
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 7: I've done here is I've filled in the gaps and

693
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,479
Speaker 7: details with my imagination, and that's kind of what moves

694
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 7: it into the realm of historical fiction. Occasionally unvent a

695
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,760
Speaker 7: minor character to keep the story moving along, but almost

696
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 7: all the characters walking on and off the pages are

697
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 7: real people like Lincoln and his stepmother and his dad,

698
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 7: and you know, his friends he meets along the way,

699
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 7: and Stephen Douglas and then an Old Day you know

700
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 7: my other novel, you know, people like unless he says

701
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 7: Grant and Frederick Douglass. So the characters are real of

702
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 7: a dialogue is drawn as most much as I could

703
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 7: get it from. I'm drawing on the words that Lincoln

704
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 7: and others spoke or wrote. I've used a lot of old,

705
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 7: you know, old primary source documents, letters, memoirs, journals, that

706
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 7: kind of thing, people's memories of their counters and descriptions

707
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 7: of Lincoln to really try to bring the real Lincoln alive.

708
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 7: And that's my that's my main goal here is to

709
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 7: is to bring him alive for readers, because he has

710
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,879
Speaker 7: been an inspiration for generations of Americans, and I don't

711
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 7: I don't want to still lose that.

712
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,439
Speaker 1: Well, I would imagine works of historical fiction, at least

713
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: in my experience, they're much better page turners, and they

714
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 1: glue you and rivet you to the book more so

715
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: than a work of nonfiction. So what drew you to

716
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: I'm clearly based upon your library collection and the fact

717
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: you've written on Abraham Lincoln for so many times? What

718
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: drew you to Abraham Lincoln? Considering the multitude of prominent

719
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: historical figures in the United States history, you chose Lincoln

720
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: why is that, John?

721
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, I've been a Lincoln fan since I

722
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 7: was a boy, and it's you know, this is as

723
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 7: often happens when you're you know, when you're younger, you

724
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 7: get interested in something and then either you stick with

725
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 7: it or later on in life. But when I was young,

726
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 7: my mom, you know, did what parents are supposed to do.

727
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 7: She read aloud to me and my brothers and sisters,

728
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 7: and we Uh. One of the books she read to

729
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 7: us was an old book called Abe Lincoln Frontier Boy,

730
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 7: and uh, that just you know, those stories of him

731
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 7: growing up on the frontier and living in a log

732
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 7: cabin and you know, splitting firewood and building split ral

733
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 7: fin just grab my imagination. So I've always loved Lincoln

734
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 7: and decided it was back in two thousand and six, though,

735
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 7: that I decided to try to tackle his life in

736
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 7: historical fiction because surprisingly, I realized that nobody had ever

737
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 7: really told his life the a full blown historical fiction,

738
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 7: from his youth on the frontier all the way through

739
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 7: the end of his life. And that's what these two books,

740
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 7: The Rail Splitter and then All Day That's that's what

741
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 7: they do. They take you through his whole life.

742
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: Well, and as you pointed out, the new book, the

743
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: rail Splitter we're talking about today leads you up to

744
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: the presidency, and Old Abe is a story of the

745
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: last five years of Abraham's Lincoln. So I suppose somewhere

746
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 1: in there, maybe there's another work that you'll do. I

747
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: don't know, we were there. Go ahead, make up more

748
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: stories and incorporate more more work about more real history

749
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: about Abraham Lincoln, so we can learn something and have

750
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 1: a good time reading at the same time. Have you

751
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: ever been to his birthplace? I was on a motorcycle

752
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: trip with my uncle. And I think I only bring

753
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: that up because I think people really lose sight of

754
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: how primitive the world was during those times when you

755
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 1: see that log cabinet's like, oh my god, we're so spoiled,

756
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 1: And I think we we tend to project that, Oh,

757
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: you know, there were paved roads back then, and there

758
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: was running water back then, And no, I mean this

759
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: was like permanent camping out in the wilderness time.

760
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, it really was. I mean they, I mean they

761
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 7: were living close to the way people lived in medieval ages.

762
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 7: Nine and I went to a lecture last last night

763
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 7: at Clemson University. Got a great Lincoln historian Alan Gelzo,

764
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 7: and he was kind of talking about this and he

765
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 7: said something, I'd really never realized that the kerosene lantern

766
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 7: had not even been invented by when Lincoln was born.

767
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 7: I mean, that's how primitive the world was allowed to them.

768
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 7: Was just a placed in a cup of hot greas

769
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 7: the only way I could make life. So he just,

770
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 7: you know, he's born into a time when things are

771
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 7: very he grows up in a very very frontier environment,

772
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 7: when life where life was very very hard and people

773
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 7: didn't have much. But one thing that he did have.

774
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 7: In that time and place where he was born and

775
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 7: grew up out on that part of the frontier, most

776
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 7: people were free to make their way in life as

777
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 7: best they could. And this is one reason he cherishes

778
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 7: freedom so much, because you know, it allows him to

779
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 7: make a better life for himself and he and why

780
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 7: he wants it for other people. And one reason he

781
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 7: hates slavery so.

782
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: Much indeed, and what drew him to education. Clearly he

783
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: was an educated man. But when you think of that,

784
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, subsistence, subsistence in world you're spending your whole day,

785
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: like you say, splitting rails and chopping wood and farming

786
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: and trying to It's a hunter gatherer kind of reality.

787
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: When did he have time to work in education? Why?

788
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: What drew him to educating himself?

789
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 7: Well, it's a great question, because he was a self educated.

790
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 7: He used to say his father, Tom Lincoln sent him

791
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 7: to school by littles. He said, a little here and

792
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 7: a little there, and those littles added up to less

793
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 7: than one year of school. His whole life less than

794
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 7: a year, and that took place in a lock having,

795
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 7: you know, school houses on the frontier. But he loved

796
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 7: to read. He was a voracious reader. He would literally

797
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 7: walk miles from the Indiana Woods to get hold of

798
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 7: a book he could if he could, I mean he

799
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 7: would walk twenty miles to get a book. And he

800
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 7: just he devoured books. So he just had that burning

801
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,399
Speaker 7: desire to learn. And his whole life, you know, he

802
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 7: you know, he turned himself to he's an attorney by profession.

803
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 7: There's no law school for him to go to. He

804
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 7: got a hold of a book called Blackstone's Commentaries on

805
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 7: the Laws of England and other books, and he was

806
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 7: living in a little frontier village called New Sale of Illinois.

807
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 7: Years later, people remembered seeing him sitting around on you know,

808
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 7: tree stumps and fences, just reading away at this book

809
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 7: until he turns himself into an attorney, and eventually a

810
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 7: very good one.

811
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: That's wonderful, you know. I just proving the point that

812
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: I make regularly on the fifty five Caressey Morning Show.

813
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: I give my parents a lot of credit for a

814
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:51,879
Speaker 1: whole lot of things. I was blessed to have both

815
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: of them, But the greatest gift they ever gave me

816
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: was insisting that I got a good education, because that

817
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: is truly what liberates you in this world.

818
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 8: Yeah.

819
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 9: Yeah.

820
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 7: The very first time he ever ran for office, in

821
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 7: eighteen thirty two, Lincoln ran for the people about little

822
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 7: village of New Salem, had about a hundred people living

823
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 7: in it. They came to him and said, we think

824
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 7: he'd be good at representing us. So he runs for

825
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 7: office in eighteen thirty two. He loses, but he runs

826
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 7: again two years later, wins and spends four terms in

827
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 7: the Illinois State House. That's how he gets into politics.

828
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 7: But at first time he runs, he writes, he says,

829
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 7: upon the subject of education, I can say I can

830
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 7: only say it's the most important subject, which we as

831
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 7: American people can concern ourselves with. So even though he's

832
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 7: got less than a year of schooling, he knows how

833
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 7: absolutely vital education is.

834
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: Well, when you think about that and you think of

835
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 1: modern education, the failures that we see in schools across

836
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 1: this country, it just makes me want to cry.

837
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:43,439
Speaker 9: Me too.

838
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think Lincoln would not be happy.

839
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: No, he would not. Gentlemen, Today we're talking with John

840
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: Cribb of wildly successful best selling author of the book

841
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: The Rail Splitter. As always, your book is going to

842
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: be on my blog and podcast page. The podcast will

843
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: be on there, and the blog page will have the

844
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: link to get people can get your book, and I'll

845
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 1: recommend they go ahead and get both of them the

846
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: same time, because old Abe is well worth reading. It'd

847
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: be a nice one to two great read on Abraham

848
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 1: Lincoln before we part company. I have to ask you this,

849
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: since you know so much about him other than you

850
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: know his liberating the slaves and the Civil War related

851
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 1: is there some like interesting thing that just sort of

852
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: jumps out of you that you learned about Abraham Lincoln

853
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: throughout your years of studies that a lot of people

854
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: don't know that just really is worth bringing out, like

855
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: did you know that Abraham Lincoln fill in the blank

856
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: kind of fact?

857
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, there are lots of them, and you'll learn

858
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 7: them in these books. For example, Lincoln twice when he

859
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 7: was young, built flatboats with with buddies and out of

860
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 7: you know, cut down trees, built flatboats, loaded them with

861
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 7: frontier produce, produce like live hogs and corner whiskey, and

862
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 7: float to them all the way down the Mississippi River,

863
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 7: like Huck fend in New Orleans to sell them. The

864
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 7: first first trip, he's attacked by river pirates on the way. Now,

865
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 7: so his life is full of adventure, and they just

866
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 7: real quick.

867
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:53,880
Speaker 4: You know.

868
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 7: One thing that I didn't realize until going into this

869
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,959
Speaker 7: as when he's president, just what a man of deep

870
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 7: faith he become while he's president. That really was one

871
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 7: of the surprising things to me. As the war drags on,

872
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 7: it becomes worse and worse, he more and more turns

873
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 7: to the Bible and become I think a man of

874
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 7: deep faith.

875
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: Well faith can get you through the toughest times, you know.

876
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 1: And I reacted when you said, Huck Finn, I literally

877
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: wrote down as I was reading about the book, I

878
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: wrote down huck Finn Adventures, and that's basically what you've got,

879
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 1: a historical work of Lincoln's younger years on this Huckleberry

880
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: Finn style adventure that he experienced throughout his life. A

881
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: fascinating book. I'm so happy to be able to talk

882
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,280
Speaker 1: to you about it and spread the word to my listeners.

883
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: Got to fifty five care Sea dot com. Folks get

884
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: a copy of The Rail Splitter by my guest today,

885
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 1: John John John Crib. I will look forward to talking

886
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 1: to you again because I have a feeling there'll be

887
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: another book coming down the pike soon.

888
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 7: I hope. So I really appreciate it.

889
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 1: Brian, my pleasure. John, keep doing the good work and

890
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: thanks again for the comments today and spending time with

891
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: my listeners and me. Raynards gentleman, Welcome to the fifty

892
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 1: five Cars Morning Show. By way of background, he has

893
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: quite a back. He was the Central He was at

894
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: the Central Ursude for Social Science Research and at the

895
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 1: Free University in Berlin. He became editor in chief of

896
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: the third largest book publishing group in Germany. Also has

897
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: written numerous books, twenty six of them. Twenty six of

898
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,879
Speaker 1: them including the one We're Gonna Be Talking about today

899
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: in defense of capitalism. He was awarded his second doctor

900
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,840
Speaker 1: degree in sociology with his thesis on the psychology of

901
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: the super Rich. Welcome to the program, Rainer's Gettlement. It's

902
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: pleasure to have you on today.

903
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 9: Hello, good morning.

904
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: I have to ask you the one thing I keep

905
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: hearing about capitalism, and I'm very pro capitalism. I just

906
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: need to look at my history of my country here

907
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: in the United States, and know that we are the

908
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 1: wealthiest nation of the world, and that we have done

909
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 1: tremendous things on behalf of the world's population. We've solved

910
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: as eve, We've helped with starvation issues, brilliant inventions. Because

911
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: capitalism is motivated by a profit margin. If I got

912
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: that wrong, is not the goal of inventors to make

913
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: a profit off their inventions as well as to help humanity.

914
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 8: Doctor, I think the most important thing that I would

915
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 8: mention is this, look before capitalism. Two hundred years ago,

916
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 8: ninety percent of the worldwide population lives in extractre in poverty.

917
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 8: Ninety percent. Today it's less than ten percent. I think

918
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 8: this is amazing. This was because of capitalism. And of

919
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 8: course you are correct, the United States, America, the createst

920
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 8: country ever. Why is that because of capitalism? Because you

921
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 8: had capitalism. If you would have in social system, you

922
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 8: would have enough. You never would have been so successful.

923
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 8: And I have doubts whether people forget it. I have

924
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 8: here a new book I started to read it by

925
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 8: Bernie Sanders, and the titles It's okay to be angry

926
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 8: about capitalism. No, I think it's not okay to be

927
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 8: angry about capitalism because we thank all our success, especially

928
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,399
Speaker 8: in the United States, to capitalism.

929
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: Well, capitalism leads to extra money. I've noted. When I

930
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: grew up, you know, they started worrying about pollution and

931
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 1: the envince. Here in our country. Circle laws were passed,

932
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: clean up laws were passed. You know, things were improved

933
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 1: from an environmental standpoint. You can't do that unless you

934
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: have an abundance of wealth. You're busy. It's almost like

935
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: you go from a hunter gatherer into a point where

936
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: you develop society. People have jobs and extra income, and

937
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: that's when you can start taking care of the broader

938
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: problems in society. But you need a lot of capital

939
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: to do that.

940
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 8: Yes, but this is what a lot of people don't know.

941
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 8: If we speak about environments, anti capitalists tell us capitalism

942
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 8: is responsible for environmental destruction and for climate change, but

943
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 8: the opposite is true.

944
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 7: I g.

945
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 8: If you're an example, I live here in Germany as

946
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 8: you're here with my accent, and I have some numbers

947
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 8: in my book. If you compare East and West termly,

948
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 8: you know East Termany was socialist, West term capitalists. The

949
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 8: COO two emissions in East Germany were three times higher

950
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 8: than in West Termany, and the environmental standards were so bad.

951
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 8: And what a lot of people don't know. If you look,

952
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 8: for example, quality of the air or quality of the water,

953
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 8: it's much better than it's well thirty years ago. You

954
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,760
Speaker 8: can read some facts in my book. You can also

955
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 8: read it. Maybe you know Stephen Pinker his book Enlightened

956
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,240
Speaker 8: Now it's a great book, but a lot of people

957
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 8: don't know it. Of course, there is this topic of

958
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 8: climate change. But I remember, for one thing, planned economy

959
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 8: didn't solve any problem in the world in the last

960
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 8: time hundred years. It fails time and again. And why

961
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 8: should the problem of climate change the first problem that

962
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 8: will be solved by planned economy. I'm absolutely convinced that

963
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,080
Speaker 8: the country is correct. Only with capitalists it can also

964
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 8: solve these problems of enviro mental destruction, not with another system.

965
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 1: Well, I'm old enough to remember that our population was

966
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: going to explode to the point where it was going

967
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: to be a mass starvation, the Malthusian idea that the

968
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 1: world could not sustain the population. Well, we're over six

969
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 1: billion people now and we seem to really manage food production.

970
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 1: Find they didn't anticipate technology led by capitalism solving the

971
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,800
Speaker 1: global problems that they perceive to exist back then. We've

972
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 1: proven them wrong. So why do we keep hearing about

973
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 1: population control and reduced consumption in the name of saving

974
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: the planet if it didn't work out and according to

975
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:22,400
Speaker 1: their predictions previously, and capitalism solve those problems absolutely.

976
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 8: Maybe you remember this book from Clap of Rome, because

977
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 8: fifty years ago they predicted that we are out of

978
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 8: out of oil, out of most commodities. Everything was wrong.

979
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 8: But today they tell us the same story again, and

980
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 8: it's wrong because the SEO two emissions, they decop it

981
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 8: from GDP proth in the meantime, Look, I give you

982
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 8: a concrete example that it's not for abstras. For example,

983
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 8: I think you have a smartphone, or most of the

984
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 8: people have a smartphone before the smartphone was invented. In

985
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 8: this is a typical capitalist invention. You needed early different

986
00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:01,720
Speaker 8: devices for the same a calculator, telephone, and a camera,

987
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,439
Speaker 8: and the nerdy devices that you have now in one

988
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 8: in smartphones. So it's a capitalist innovation, and we need

989
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 8: less results from the smartphone that we needed to be

990
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 8: tall or other examples. When I was young, I had

991
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 8: a lot of records, a LPs, the old fashions. Later

992
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 8: I bought the CDs. Today my girlfriend was much younger

993
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 8: than me. She laughed at me because she downloaded to

994
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 8: Spotify or whatever. So economic growth doesn't mean always that

995
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 8: you need more resources, it's lost or time to go,

996
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 8: but it's not now.

997
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: Well address the argument made by anti capitalists that capitalism

998
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 1: just results in rising inequality, that whole class warfare argument

999
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: that they've been making since Karl Marx had had a

1000
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: thought in his head. That also isn't true. I mean

1001
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: what you tell, I mean the points you addressed capital

1002
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: and least the hunger and poverty wrong, rising inequality, wrong,

1003
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: unnecessary consumption, environmental destruction, climate change. All of these are

1004
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: the regular mantras that they scream at us in the

1005
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 1: face of the evidence you present in your book in

1006
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 1: defense of capitalism. Let me ask you this straightforward question

1007
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: Rainer's settlement. What is it that they want? If capitalism

1008
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 1: is successful and all ships can rise with the benefits

1009
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: of capitalism, why do they want to destroy it so much?

1010
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 8: It's ideology and you can't explain it. It's irrational. I'll

1011
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 8: tell you something that maybe you don't know. I live

1012
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 8: here in Germany and there's one book now it's so

1013
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 8: successful and the author is in every talk show. Unfortunately

1014
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 8: fought my book, but it's also a book about capitalism.

1015
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 8: It is written by anti capitalist number one year in

1016
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 8: my country. And do you know what she writes in

1017
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 8: her book? First, we should forbid to try the car,

1018
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 8: we should forbid to fly. We should know new buildings,

1019
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 8: but redistribute everything because we have enough buildings. And then

1020
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 8: you shouldn't eat more than two thousand five onders carries

1021
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 8: today and to control it you need rating car. So

1022
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 8: and there is not a strange outsider, but she's very

1023
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,879
Speaker 8: popular here. People buy her books, She's in every talk show.

1024
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 8: It's irrational. It's ideological ideology. You can explain it, and

1025
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 8: the problem is if you come with facts like I

1026
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 8: do with my book. They won't read the book the

1027
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 8: Anti Capitalist, So I will tell you something I didn't read.

1028
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:27,400
Speaker 8: I didn't wrote the book to convince anti capitalists because

1029
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,120
Speaker 8: I'm sure they will not buy the book. They prefer

1030
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 8: to buy the new book from Bernie Sanders or the

1031
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 8: new book of the French economist Thomas Pictetti, and they

1032
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,839
Speaker 8: prefer to buy book number thirty four that explains to

1033
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 8: them why capitalists is evil, then only to touch one

1034
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 8: book like this. Now, I wrote my book for people

1035
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 8: like you, hopefully some people who listen to us now,

1036
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 8: people who are pro capitalism, pro free market, antisocialism, but

1037
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 8: they need more facts for this book. I used to

1038
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 8: see the biplography, three hundred and fifty scientific books and papers,

1039
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,879
Speaker 8: and I did a lot of research for this book.

1040
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,760
Speaker 8: Not everyone is able or want to read three hundred

1041
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,279
Speaker 8: and fifty books or doing this research. But I give

1042
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 8: it a very short form that everyone can understand it.

1043
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 8: If you are tech tax text so that you can

1044
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 8: win every discussion. Whenever you have a discussion with anti capitalists,

1045
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 8: you have the better peck. They have the ideology, but

1046
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:26,799
Speaker 8: you have to.

1047
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 1: Text the facts the information. It's all in Reiners Getleman's

1048
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: new book in Defensive Capitalism, Debunking the Myths before we

1049
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 1: part company. The one thing I wanted to I want

1050
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,240
Speaker 1: to ask you about is this idea that capitalism creates

1051
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,000
Speaker 1: unnecessary consumption. I can see the arguments. I've heard the arguments.

1052
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: I know you have. The world can sustain like the

1053
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 1: United States level of consumption. Not everybody's going to build

1054
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 1: a three thousand square foot house. The world's resources can't

1055
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 1: handle it. There's too many. I mean, you can see

1056
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: where that goes, and you know on a ten thousand

1057
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,800
Speaker 1: foot level, that kind of is appealing. From an argument,

1058
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,279
Speaker 1: how do you respond to that one that is made regularly.

1059
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 8: I spoke about it before a little bit that troths

1060
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 8: doesn't mean that you need always more resources. I gave

1061
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 8: it the example from the from the CDs, from the

1062
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 8: from the iPhone and other things. So it was though

1063
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 8: before that if we have more crows, that we need

1064
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 8: more resources. But I have pats also in my book

1065
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 8: that there was a sea tackling from spending resources and

1066
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,759
Speaker 8: crows of GDP. This is one thing. The other thing

1067
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 8: is if they speak about unnecessary consumption, I think I

1068
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 8: will tell them please go to Africa. Please go to

1069
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 8: China and tell people we have enough. We have here

1070
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 8: good standard of living in the United States, but you

1071
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 8: should live like you did before because there's not enough.

1072
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 8: Don't tell it people in the United States. Go to Africa,

1073
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 8: go to Asia. Tell people I'm very often in Asia,

1074
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 8: and it's amazing what's happened there. Look, for example, I've

1075
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 8: been in Vietnam, and Vietnam was in ninety ninety one

1076
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 8: of the poorest, maybe the poorest country in the world,

1077
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 8: poorer than epicent countries. And then they started with economic reforms,

1078
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 8: pro market reforms, they introduced private property. They call themselves socialists,

1079
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 8: but I guarantee you one thing. It's easier to tie

1080
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,479
Speaker 8: the Marxist in the United States or European to find

1081
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 8: in Vietnam. So and now stand the flitting increased. And

1082
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 8: I'll go to them. Tell them it's called the mistake.

1083
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 8: It goes wrong. Please go back to the nineties, first

1084
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,439
Speaker 8: because you were more equal, and second because you spent

1085
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 8: my results.

1086
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:35,799
Speaker 9: Go to them.

1087
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 8: Discuss with them, don't discuss with me.

1088
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: That's great. Rady's element is a pleasure having on the

1089
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: program that I'm glad we're able to talk and your

1090
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,799
Speaker 1: book is on my blog page of fifty five cares

1091
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: dot com, so my listeners can easily get a cap

1092
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 1: copy of it, and I recommend they share it with

1093
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 1: their friends. Keep up the great work, sir. It's been

1094
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: a real pleasure having you on my program. Right, Tim

1095
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 1: as here, happy to welcome to the firty five CARC

1096
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 1: Morning Show author Bob Delaney. The name of the book

1097
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: Heroes are human Lessons and Resilience, courage and wisdom from

1098
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: the COVID front lines. I guess that means he's a

1099
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: doctor or someone in the medical profession, but no, he's not.

1100
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: Bob Dainey. Welcome to the fifty five CARC Morning Show.

1101
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you on today, sir, morning Brian,

1102
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: how are you. I'm doing well. You've written some other books.

1103
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: I would love someday to talk to you about Covert

1104
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 1: my years infiltrating the Mob, which sounds fascinating. But you

1105
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: also wrote Surviving the Shadows, A Journey of Hope into

1106
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 1: post traumatic stress, and that work in post traumatic stress

1107
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: and stress and your experiences, and I suppose, and tell

1108
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: me if I'm right, does that serve as a springboard

1109
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 1: for your writing this book? About the COVID frontlines and

1110
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: the medical profession.

1111
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 9: Exactly.

1112
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 10: Yeah, as you mentioned, covert my years infiltrating the mob.

1113
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 10: I was a young New Jersey State trooper when I

1114
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,360
Speaker 10: was tapped to go on to cover and piltrate the

1115
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 10: Genevie's and Vernal crime family. He's back in the seventies

1116
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 10: and I became a president of a trucking company that

1117
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 10: served as our base of operations. But after three years

1118
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 10: of living another life, I surface from doing that undercover

1119
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 10: work and started dealing with post traumatic stress and became

1120
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,880
Speaker 10: a student of it, became immersed into understanding what I

1121
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 10: was going through, the emotional violence inside of me that

1122
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 10: resulted and catapulted into the work that I've been doing

1123
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:22,279
Speaker 10: for the past words decades with those who serve our

1124
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 10: military frontline first responders.

1125
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: So you experienced post traumatic stress as a consequence of

1126
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: the concern what over getting killed by the crime family

1127
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,160
Speaker 1: because you were an inside operative? Is I can understand

1128
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 1: how that might happen, But is that the connection?

1129
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 9: Exactly? That's what some of the other basis. We're in

1130
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 9: a wire and if you get cault aware and a

1131
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 9: wire in that world, you're gonna die and so there's

1132
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 9: nothing on you when you work deep covered that says

1133
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 9: you are law enforcement. And so that was a constant concern.

1134
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 9: And yet I had to play as if none of

1135
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 9: this bothered me. Right, And even after I surface, everybody's

1136
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 9: telling me I'm a tough guy and I'm brave and

1137
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 9: heroic in the work that I did, But they didn't

1138
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 9: see me walking around my house two o'clock in the

1139
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 9: morning pushing shower curtains back with my gun out because

1140
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 9: I'm paranoid They're coming to get me.

1141
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:13,479
Speaker 10: Wow.

1142
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 9: And so this journey that I went on.

1143
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 10: Really helped me understand that while that job was about

1144
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,320
Speaker 10: putting away bad guys, it really was about having the

1145
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 10: experience to help a lot of good people understand the

1146
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 10: emotions that they're dealing with well.

1147
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: And as you describe that and anybody who's living that

1148
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: sort of stress, and I think about the men who

1149
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: serve on the front lines in the various conflicts, kicking

1150
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: indoors every single day, to be faced by evil guys

1151
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: with machine guns trying to kill them, and then you

1152
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 1: got to go out and do it again tomorrow, and

1153
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 1: then you got to do it and get the next day.

1154
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 1: Your life is constantly on ad you have that adrenaline

1155
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: that's constantly going through you run as high state of

1156
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: alert constantly, and then when you come back home, you

1157
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: can't just lay down in your bed and pretend life

1158
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 1: is normal. Your brain is wired to to stay that way, right.

1159
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, it's you know, they compartmentalize. Whether it's a homicide detective,

1160
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 10: law enforcementalves or firefighter first responder, are military on foreign soil,

1161
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,960
Speaker 10: they compartmentalize their experiences. And what drove me to heroes

1162
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 10: are human. Every hospital I drove by it said heroes

1163
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 10: work here, and so it underlined to me that those

1164
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 10: who serve in the healthcare community are at war with

1165
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 10: an invisible enemy. And so I drew the parallels between

1166
00:58:29,360 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 10: the work that I've been doing with Iraq, Afghanistan, and

1167
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 10: Vietnam bets for the last four decades to find out

1168
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 10: what was going on inside the health community healthcare community.

1169
00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 10: And while I found that they are very good at

1170
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 10: taking care of us, they're not very good at taking

1171
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 10: care of themselves. And I wanted to underline to them

1172
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 10: that self care does not mean selfish, that they have

1173
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:52,959
Speaker 10: to take care of them them as well.

1174
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: Well. As you were talking to these various healthcare providers

1175
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: and dealing with the COVID and their post traumatic stress

1176
00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: or the stress that they experience. And I guess it

1177
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: depends on how much that person is committed to human

1178
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: life and loves their patients even though they're not their

1179
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: own loved ones. I guess I'm kind of framing it

1180
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: that way because I see, you know, I know nurses.

1181
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,320
Speaker 1: I've mactified. My wife was a nurse for ten years

1182
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 1: before I met her in law school. But I imagine

1183
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: the stress isn't connected maybe with the loss of life

1184
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: they might see. But is it the workload? Is it

1185
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: the fear of contracting COVID? Is it the ridiculous rules

1186
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: that were put in place that separated family members with

1187
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: glass and elderly couldn't meet and commiserate with their loved ones.

1188
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: I mean, all of these draconian rules that rolled out

1189
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 1: to me that would be an extraordinarily stressful part of

1190
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: the job. Just the anguish that the patients and their

1191
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 1: loved ones are feeling.

1192
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 10: Yeah, everything that you just described are stories that I heard.

1193
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 10: I doesn't give you the story that ICU nurse who

1194
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 10: was working in the area COVID for so long, she

1195
00:59:57,680 --> 00:59:59,320
Speaker 10: just wanted to get out with her husband and go

1196
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 10: out on the lake, going on a boat and just relax.

1197
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 10: And they had a great day on the lake. And

1198
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:05,920
Speaker 10: as they came in, she went to the front of

1199
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 10: the boat to tie it off and she started crying uncontrollably.

1200
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 10: And what had happened, Brian. She saw a small boat

1201
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 10: on land that had a tarp over it that was

1202
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 10: the same color of the body bag she had been

1203
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 10: putting patients into, and it triggered her to remember every

1204
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 10: one of their names and see every one of their faces.

1205
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 10: These are very similar stories to what I heard from

1206
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 10: our troops coming home from Iraq in Afghanistan, and I

1207
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 10: would hear Sarah, I can't go over a bridge without

1208
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,960
Speaker 10: checking for an ID. I'm late everywhere I go, Sara.

1209
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 10: You know, I wanted to bob with my kids and

1210
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 10: went for a walk and my son kicked a can

1211
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 10: and I went ballistic, yelling the screamer because where I

1212
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 10: came from to kick something, you don't come home. These

1213
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 10: are real stories of what these experiences are causing. Also

1214
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 10: in our healthcare community, folks are never afraid of home

1215
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 10: bringing home cancer. Now they had to be concerned about

1216
01:00:53,640 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 10: bringing home a disease to their loved ones. And as

1217
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 10: you said, they were holding hands of people who were dying,

1218
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:03,400
Speaker 10: or setting up FaceTime zoom calls for a final device.

1219
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:05,919
Speaker 10: These were not the kind of thing that they were

1220
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:09,320
Speaker 10: doing on a daily basis prior to COVID, So this impacted.

1221
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 10: But I would underline that this is not just about COVID.

1222
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 10: This is about the burnout and stress that our healthcare

1223
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 10: community is under. And I think, just like with our troops,

1224
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 10: we have to honor, thank and support them because they're

1225
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 10: doing the work that we were asked to sit in

1226
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 10: a driveway six feet away from each other to have

1227
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:31,120
Speaker 10: a happy hour while they're on the front lines.

1228
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: Indeed, here is a human the name of the book

1229
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:36,120
Speaker 1: Lessons and Resilience, Courage and Wisdom from the COVID front lines.

1230
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: I understand you, President of Barack Obama, you got the

1231
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:43,360
Speaker 1: Volunteer Service Board for your work with post traumatic stress.

1232
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: So knowing so much about it and all of your

1233
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:49,160
Speaker 1: work over the years, how does somebody even know if

1234
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 1: they have post traumatic stress?

1235
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 10: Well, first, it's going through a traumatic event, right. So

1236
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:59,680
Speaker 10: the awareness that Brian, I believe that we can do

1237
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 10: the same same thing with post traumaunt stress that we've

1238
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 10: done in so many other areas. We became knowledgeable with

1239
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 10: educational awareness about hiva's alcohol drugs. To back up, we

1240
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 10: need a trauma awareness program in our country. PTSD is

1241
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 10: the most loosely used term because I would underline to

1242
01:02:19,600 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 10: you in your audience, we do not get PTSD if

1243
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 10: Starbucks gets our order wrong. Yet people throw that term around.

1244
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 9: As if it's just like PTSD for everything that's a diagnosis.

1245
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,000
Speaker 9: This is a human condition. It's not a mental illness,

1246
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 9: and it's been around forever. Sophocles wrote two plays about

1247
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 9: the warrior not knowing how to act after coming home

1248
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 9: from battle. After the Civil War, we called it soldier's heart.

1249
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 9: We called it shell shock after World War One, battle

1250
01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 9: fatigue after World War Two, and flashbacks after the Korean

1251
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 9: and Vietnam wars. Today we call it post traumatic stress

1252
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 9: disorder is a diagnosis, but you have to have post

1253
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 9: traumatic stress before you get to the disorder. So my

1254
01:02:56,640 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 9: hope and my attention is building bridges to allow a

1255
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 9: conversation to be normalized about this post trauma. After someone

1256
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 9: goes through a.

1257
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 10: Traumatic event, and the most common clause is an audible

1258
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 10: they'll accident, but.

1259
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 9: It can happen after natural disasters, It can happen after

1260
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 9: very serious situations and families that these are real events

1261
01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 9: that take place, and emotions are meant to be felt,

1262
01:03:21,280 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 9: yet we as human beings do everything we can to

1263
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:25,760
Speaker 9: hide our emotions.

1264
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: True. Now, the way you have presented the materials, you

1265
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: let the frontline workers tell their stories rather than reward

1266
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 1: them or summarize them or otherwise rework them. It is

1267
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: the point of that to help individuals out here reading

1268
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 1: the book and who may be dealing with these issues,

1269
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 1: whether it's because they're a frontline worker or because they

1270
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: were in the military or experience stress to some level

1271
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 1: to cause this problem. Is that for a relatable so

1272
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: they can say, oh, yeah, I'm not alone, this is

1273
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm feeling right now. Because that's where you

1274
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 1: get the connection where it's like a support group. You

1275
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 1: can take some comfort knowing you're not the only one

1276
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: of the world experiencing this.

1277
01:04:01,840 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, thanks Brian for making that point. Right.

1278
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 10: Validation and permission is taking place when someone else here

1279
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 10: is if you tell me your story, you validate and

1280
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,680
Speaker 10: give me permission to tell me tell you my story.

1281
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 10: And when I tell you. We each share our stories.

1282
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 10: There's a validation of our feelings that's taking place, so

1283
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 10: we don't feel like we're on an island. I like

1284
01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 10: to use this analogy when I present, I asked the

1285
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 10: audience to imagine that I'm holding a big balloon.

1286
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 9: Over my head full of air. How do I get

1287
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:31,480
Speaker 9: the air out? I can take a pin and poppet

1288
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 9: I get the air out, but I don't have a balloon.

1289
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 10: I can let it go.

1290
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 9: It flies all over the room, it goes out the door.

1291
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 9: We don't know what happened to the balloon. But if

1292
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,720
Speaker 9: we're patient and willing to listen to sounds we do

1293
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 9: not want to hear, and it may hurt our ears

1294
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 9: that sound as we turn it upside down and let

1295
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 9: it alone, the air out of time screeching noise, but

1296
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 9: eventually get all the air out, it can have a

1297
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 9: full balloon we can use again one day. That's us

1298
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 9: with trauma. We need to get the ear out of

1299
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 9: our balloons and share what we're experiencing. I don't mean

1300
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 9: that we get up in front of our moons in

1301
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 9: front of a hundred people. Have one or two people

1302
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 9: in your life that you're able to have a conversation

1303
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 9: that you trust them to allow you to get the

1304
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:11,240
Speaker 9: air out of zero belonging.

1305
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: So this book is written for anyone who's maybe experiencing it,

1306
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: but also for loved one so they can help their

1307
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: loved one who has post traumatic stress cope. Correct.

1308
01:05:21,040 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 9: Yes, the post amount of trust does not only come

1309
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 9: to the individual that's experiencing it. Emotional shrapnel comes to

1310
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 9: friends and family. And so having a working knowledge, having

1311
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 9: an understanding, and hearing other stories to understand because I've

1312
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 9: had nurses say my family says to me, well you

1313
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:40,919
Speaker 9: should be able to handle it. You've been a nurse

1314
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 9: for twenty years. Well that's not the way it works.

1315
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 9: And I think that normalizing this conversation, allowing folks to

1316
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 9: have the conversation doing what we're doing right here by

1317
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 9: folks in the media putting it out more and more,

1318
01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 9: because think about this blind we have moved the bar

1319
01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 9: in a lot of ways. Think of the Simon bio situation.

1320
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 9: Had some own Biles two or three Olympics ago made

1321
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 9: that decision, she would have been vilified for being unpatriotic.

1322
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 9: And yet we became have become more knowledgeable and understand

1323
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 9: that a young woman doing twirls at twelve to fifteen

1324
01:06:19,040 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 9: feet in the year. She has to have everything going

1325
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 9: exactly right. And if she is saying it cannot work

1326
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:30,160
Speaker 9: because I'm having an emotional or a psychological episode, that

1327
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 9: this twisties that we all came to learn, that's a

1328
01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 9: moving of the bar. We're becoming more knowledgeable about what

1329
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 9: takes place in our society well.

1330
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:41,960
Speaker 1: Bob Delaney, authors author of Heroes Are Human. I can

1331
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:46,160
Speaker 1: only imagine that folks with post traumatic stress probably pretty

1332
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: high on the spectrum in terms of substance abuse. You know,

1333
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 1: it's a coping mechanism, sometimes self medication to make the

1334
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 1: old pain go away. Have you found that in your

1335
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 1: work with post traumatic stress victims.

1336
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 9: Yeah, the behaviors right, just as you said, drinking, drugs

1337
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 9: or sex addictions. You can go on and on with

1338
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 9: a variety of addictions that draw people to be trying

1339
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 9: to push away and forget what they're experiencing, and that

1340
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 9: hurt people, hurt people, and so the more that we're

1341
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:21,760
Speaker 9: able to understand what's taking place, I think the better

1342
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,080
Speaker 9: we will with interacting with it.

1343
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 1: Bob Blaney, It's been a genuine pleasure talking with you.

1344
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: I'll recommend my listeners get over to my blog page

1345
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 1: fifty five carec dot com get a copy of Heroes

1346
01:07:31,440 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: or Human Lessons and Resilience, Courage, Wisdom from the COVID Frontlines.

1347
01:07:34,840 --> 01:07:36,840
Speaker 1: Kimberly Ellis, We're going to talk about her new book.

1348
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: She's a researcher and runnerund family issues and has worked

1349
01:07:39,120 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 1: as a policy advisor for the past nine years. She's

1350
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 1: written for great outlets The Federalists, town Hall, Life Site, News,

1351
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 1: EPOC Times, Daily Signal, as well as others. She was

1352
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,720
Speaker 1: featured on the Tucker Carlson Program Tucker Carlson Today last year.

1353
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: Also spoken at the United Nations and other venues all

1354
01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: around the country. Graduate from Brighamam University with a degree

1355
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 1: in English. Welcome to the program, Kimberly Ellis, who's here

1356
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: to talk about her new book, The Invincible Family. Why

1357
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 1: the global campaign to crush motherhood and fatherhood can't win. Kimberly,

1358
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 1: It's great to have you on the fifty five Carcene

1359
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 1: Morning Show.

1360
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 11: Thank you, thank you for having me.

1361
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 1: And I mentioned Joe Mobley with good reason. I just

1362
01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 1: got off the phone with him and I mentioned he

1363
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:19,679
Speaker 1: is a black man and very conservative, and we talked

1364
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:23,560
Speaker 1: about education, and I gave my parents, as I have

1365
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,000
Speaker 1: many times over the years and I have my entire life,

1366
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:30,639
Speaker 1: the just the utmost thanks for my education. I said,

1367
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 1: it's the second greatest guess they gave me after life.

1368
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: It allows me the freedom to, you know, defend for myself,

1369
01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 1: provide for my family. And it was, but I said,

1370
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:41,599
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have happened. I don't believe without my mom

1371
01:08:41,760 --> 01:08:44,839
Speaker 1: and dad both taking a keen interest in my success

1372
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: in education. The destruction of the family, of the of

1373
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:52,160
Speaker 1: the Nuclear family is obvious. And Joe agreed with me that, yeah,

1374
01:08:52,240 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 1: the leftists are all out to tear down the Nuclear family.

1375
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: Is that why you wrote the book?

1376
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 11: Yes, exactly why I wrote the book. And I became

1377
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,320
Speaker 11: involved with an organization that was working at the global level,

1378
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 11: actually at the United Nations level, and I quickly came

1379
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 11: to see that there is an all out attack on

1380
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 11: the family. It's not just something that has naturally happened

1381
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:17,120
Speaker 11: over time. I mean, there's been some of that, but

1382
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 11: there are people and forces at work globally that want

1383
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:24,280
Speaker 11: to disband the family. They see it as an evil

1384
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:27,599
Speaker 11: institution and one that threatens their power, and so they're

1385
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 11: working actively to tear it down.

1386
01:09:30,200 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 1: Well, it's evil because it does threaten their power. And

1387
01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 1: we evil parents get to influence the hearts and minds

1388
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:38,400
Speaker 1: of our young people, and gee, maybe we want to

1389
01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,559
Speaker 1: raise them in a way that's inconsistent with their leftist,

1390
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:45,600
Speaker 1: government controlled ideology. I have to ask you this the

1391
01:09:45,720 --> 01:09:47,639
Speaker 1: name of the book, The Invincible Family. Why the global

1392
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: campaign to crush motherhood and fatherhood can't win? Is is

1393
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,960
Speaker 1: that a plea, oh my god, it can't win, or

1394
01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 1: is it a conclusion that no, it can't win.

1395
01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:02,040
Speaker 11: It's a declar that it can't win. And I'll tell

1396
01:10:02,040 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 11: you why. Because the family predates the state. The family

1397
01:10:06,960 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 11: is based in our very anatomy, as designed I believe

1398
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 11: by God. And so children are born into families.

1399
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,759
Speaker 12: They're not born into the state.

1400
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 11: They don't belong to the state. They inherently belong to

1401
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 11: their families. And that is unchangeable. And so we can

1402
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 11: damage the family, we can reject the family, but in

1403
01:10:26,800 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 11: the end, the family is the thing that will always

1404
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 11: rise again.

1405
01:10:30,320 --> 01:10:32,440
Speaker 13: And ultimately the family.

1406
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 11: Is the thing that has the most power on an

1407
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 11: individual level, which then radiates out through society. So really,

1408
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 11: in a long term, it's a hopeful message that the

1409
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 11: family is already designed to triumph.

1410
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:48,639
Speaker 1: Well, we've seen that. That was one of the great

1411
01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,880
Speaker 1: things that came out of COVID Kimberly, is that parents

1412
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 1: started paying attention to what their children were being taught,

1413
01:10:53,520 --> 01:10:55,519
Speaker 1: and they started showing up at school board meetings, and

1414
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 1: they started demanding some change along the lines of, you know,

1415
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 1: additional educational methodologies like, for example, let's teach our kids

1416
01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 1: phonics so they learn how to read now, or let's

1417
01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 1: get a critical get rid of critical race theory because

1418
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 1: you know, it demonizes white people and tells this our

1419
01:11:12,960 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 1: entire society is worthless and irredeemable. That was a beautiful

1420
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:19,839
Speaker 1: thing to see. And that is an illustration of exactly

1421
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 1: what you wrote about in the book, isn't it.

1422
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 9: It is?

1423
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:26,479
Speaker 11: And I think once parents realize the power that they have,

1424
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 11: I mean, that's one of the reasons why I wrote

1425
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:29,920
Speaker 11: the book. I wanted to cut the legs out from

1426
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 11: under the global efforts to undercut the family. I don't

1427
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,799
Speaker 11: want to do that by arming parents with the knowledge

1428
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 11: about their power that they already have. It Like, there's

1429
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 11: not a lot of other laws that need to be

1430
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:43,959
Speaker 11: in place or whatever, like we as parents already inherently

1431
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 11: have the power to direct the world and our families

1432
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 11: the way that we need to. And yeah, it's a

1433
01:11:51,040 --> 01:11:53,680
Speaker 11: beautiful thing to see people kind of realizing that and

1434
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 11: just standing.

1435
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 12: Up, because most parents don't.

1436
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 11: They don't send their kids to school to learn about

1437
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,880
Speaker 11: how to be an activist, you know. They send their

1438
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 11: kids to school to learn about history and the world

1439
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 11: and to learn skills that are going to take them

1440
01:12:06,320 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 11: forward and to understand history so that they don't repeat

1441
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 11: its mistakes. And we've gone so far from that, and

1442
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 11: it's time to reclaim our kids' education.

1443
01:12:15,439 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 1: The name of the book, The Invincible Family, Why the

1444
01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 1: Global campaign to Crushed Motherhood and Fatherhood Camp win by

1445
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:22,720
Speaker 1: my guest today, Kimberly Ellis. I am sure I know

1446
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,599
Speaker 1: that you, like so many people, view this whole gender

1447
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 1: pronoun and discussions of gender ideology and the trans movement,

1448
01:12:31,520 --> 01:12:35,439
Speaker 1: and in invading our classrooms, our libraries, almost every aspect

1449
01:12:35,479 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 1: of our society, sports included in order to discuss those concepts,

1450
01:12:40,920 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 1: and this always frightens me. Very young people must also

1451
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:50,840
Speaker 1: learn about specific sexual proclivities that any one underlying group has.

1452
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 1: This isn't just other people in the world exist. We

1453
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 1: don't want to have a conversation about sexual acts. But

1454
01:12:56,200 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 1: when you start diving down to any individual letter, quite

1455
01:12:59,080 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 1: often that letter is a reflection of something nothing other

1456
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,640
Speaker 1: than their sexual proclivities. We don't need that in our

1457
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 1: children's education, particularly young people. This is it's some people

1458
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: call it grooming.

1459
01:13:11,120 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 11: Your take on that, right, well, it's very disturbing. And

1460
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:16,800
Speaker 11: this is one of the things that brought me to

1461
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:20,240
Speaker 11: the agenda, that brought me to the table to address

1462
01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 11: these things publicly, is that I found some information about

1463
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,760
Speaker 11: the children's sexual rights movement, which I didn't know that

1464
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 11: even existed, And when I found out that it did,

1465
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:31,720
Speaker 11: and that it was highly funded and very organized, and

1466
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:34,400
Speaker 11: that it was being pushed through our schools, mainly through

1467
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:39,519
Speaker 11: comprehensive sexuality education programs, I just thought parents have got

1468
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,040
Speaker 11: to understand this. And a lot of people, I think

1469
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 11: some of us, were so good hearted. We don't want

1470
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:48,120
Speaker 11: to believe, perhaps that other people would foist these kind

1471
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 11: of things upon children, But the fact is it's happening,

1472
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 11: and as you said, in the past couple of years,

1473
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 11: it's become quite obvious that it's happening. And just as

1474
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:00,760
Speaker 11: one example of the philosoph This is one of the

1475
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 11: original statements that I found that disturbed me. This is

1476
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 11: from a publication by International Planned Parent Confederation. It says,

1477
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,839
Speaker 11: sexuality and sexual pleasure important parts of being human for everyone,

1478
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,680
Speaker 11: no matter what age, no matter if you're married or not,

1479
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 11: no matter if you want to have children or not.

1480
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,719
Speaker 11: Governments and leaders have a duty to respect and fulfill

1481
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 11: all sexual rights for everyone. That's the philosophy. That's the

1482
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 11: philosophy behind these sexuality programs, and to me, that's insidious.

1483
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 11: That's teaching our children that sex is just one a

1484
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:35,560
Speaker 11: fun activity to have. It has nothing to do with

1485
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 11: creating life, has nothing to do with family formation, and

1486
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:42,680
Speaker 11: that is that erodes our children at the soul of

1487
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 11: their character and what they should be seeking for in life.

1488
01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:46,800
Speaker 1: Well, I know you're right about this in your book

1489
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:49,439
Speaker 1: The Invisible Family. What your parents know about the quote

1490
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: unquote teaching sexual consent curriculum Kimberly, Well.

1491
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:57,919
Speaker 11: Oftentimes that's presented is, oh, this is a wonderful curriculum.

1492
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 11: It teaches about consent. Parents what they think when they

1493
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 11: hear that is, oh, good, they're going to teach my

1494
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 11: daughter refusal skills. Of how to say no to sexual

1495
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 11: advances that she does not want, which would be a

1496
01:15:11,160 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 11: beautiful thing. But more often than not, what is being

1497
01:15:15,120 --> 01:15:18,360
Speaker 11: taught is the concept of consent, both positive and negative,

1498
01:15:18,600 --> 01:15:20,160
Speaker 11: with an emphasis on positive.

1499
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:21,880
Speaker 13: In other words, teaching kids.

1500
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 11: How to say yes to sex, how to let their

1501
01:15:25,040 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 11: partners know that yes, they want this to continue. And

1502
01:15:28,960 --> 01:15:31,920
Speaker 11: you know, like one good example that I thought in

1503
01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:35,439
Speaker 11: curriculum was it proposed to kids that they should use

1504
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,120
Speaker 11: the clear statements like can I take your shirt off?

1505
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 11: That's not that's not what parents are looking for when

1506
01:15:42,200 --> 01:15:45,280
Speaker 11: they're told that the programs are going to teach their

1507
01:15:45,439 --> 01:15:49,040
Speaker 11: kids consent. And there's a lot of other really horrid

1508
01:15:49,160 --> 01:15:53,439
Speaker 11: examples of you know, kids in their parents' basement discussing

1509
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:55,599
Speaker 11: whether or not they're going to go ahead with sexual activity.

1510
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:58,240
Speaker 11: That's Those are the kind of scenarios that are in

1511
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 11: a lot of these comprehensive sexual education program So you

1512
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:03,960
Speaker 11: have to be really careful and listen to the language

1513
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:06,880
Speaker 11: and then investigate what that actually means. Consent sounds good,

1514
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:07,959
Speaker 11: but it can also.

1515
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 12: Be very bad.

1516
01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,320
Speaker 1: It can, and the whole idea these discussions involve what

1517
01:16:11,479 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 1: I would argue are adult activity. Now granted, will have

1518
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 1: a lot of high school kids experimenting with sex. Been

1519
01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:18,280
Speaker 1: a problem since the Donna mankind. But when you're talking

1520
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 1: about pre you know, K through three, third grade, fourth grade,

1521
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: fifth grade, sixth grade, totally unnecessary to have discussions about this.

1522
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 1: But when you do, and when you talk about all

1523
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:31,519
Speaker 1: the sexual activity, this is something adults do, I mean

1524
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 1: everything is the minute you tell a child they're not

1525
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 1: supposed to do it, this is an area that they

1526
01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: shouldn't be dabbling in, that's exactly what they want to do,

1527
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 1: which opens the door for some creepy pedophile to say, hey,

1528
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:42,640
Speaker 1: you know, this is what adults do. You interested in

1529
01:16:43,120 --> 01:16:46,759
Speaker 1: growing up quickly? And that's often an incentive for children,

1530
01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:48,760
Speaker 1: sort of an active rebellion.

1531
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:50,320
Speaker 7: Rights.

1532
01:16:50,400 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 11: It's the stage for that. And as adults, as grown

1533
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,599
Speaker 11: ups and parents, our role is and has always been

1534
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:01,040
Speaker 11: to protect the innocence of our children, lead them down

1535
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,519
Speaker 11: the path of adult behaviors and things that they will

1536
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 11: inevitably come in contact with later. Our job is to

1537
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 11: guard their innocence and let them grow up and have

1538
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:12,920
Speaker 11: a normal and beautiful childhood before they're bombarded with all

1539
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:13,200
Speaker 11: these things.

1540
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 14: We shouldn't be the.

1541
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:16,120
Speaker 11: Ones and our schools should definitely not be the ones

1542
01:17:16,120 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 11: who are bombarding our children with sexual content.

1543
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 1: Well, I think I'm on safe grounds concluding that you

1544
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 1: are an advocate for school choice and allowing parents to

1545
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,639
Speaker 1: get their children into any form of education that might

1546
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 1: allow them to escape this type of indoctrination.

1547
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,560
Speaker 11: Well, I am in favor of parents taking control of

1548
01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:39,240
Speaker 11: their education and directing where their children go to school

1549
01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:42,040
Speaker 11: or if they're homeschools. I see some global connections to

1550
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 11: some of the school choice efforts that concern me, which

1551
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 11: I address that in the book. Some of the global

1552
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 11: education entities in ESCO and people connected to that are

1553
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 11: pushing certain school choice efforts, which makes me concerned about

1554
01:17:55,240 --> 01:17:57,720
Speaker 11: what their intentions might be. So again, that's something you

1555
01:17:57,800 --> 01:18:01,400
Speaker 11: have to be really careful about. However, parents deciding hey

1556
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 11: I'm not okay with this school, I'm going to make

1557
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 11: a change, of course, I'm all in favor of that.

1558
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:10,080
Speaker 1: Kimberly, Well, I know you offer a lot of suggestions

1559
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 1: for the readers of your book The Invincible Family and

1560
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:14,760
Speaker 1: how they can fight back against the woke curriculum. I'll

1561
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:16,679
Speaker 1: just use that as a term to sum up everything

1562
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:19,479
Speaker 1: we're talking about here. But what are the essential actions

1563
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:23,200
Speaker 1: parents and policymakers can take to deal with this, most

1564
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:26,519
Speaker 1: notably fighting children So they're fighting this children's sexual rights movement,

1565
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 1: or perhaps fighting against this anti americanism that's being taught

1566
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:31,559
Speaker 1: in schools.

1567
01:18:33,080 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 11: Well, I think we need to take responsibility for teaching

1568
01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:38,200
Speaker 11: our kids. The first and foremost and most important thing

1569
01:18:38,240 --> 01:18:40,480
Speaker 11: that we need to do is we need to consistently

1570
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 11: teach in our families and to our children about what

1571
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:48,240
Speaker 11: we believe about marriage, family, gender and sex and the

1572
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 11: value of human life like these are discussions that we

1573
01:18:51,439 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 11: need to have. I think for too long we've assumed

1574
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:56,040
Speaker 11: that the school is going to teach our kids that

1575
01:18:56,080 --> 01:18:56,560
Speaker 11: they need to know.

1576
01:18:57,600 --> 01:18:58,519
Speaker 8: It has to be us.

1577
01:18:58,720 --> 01:19:01,320
Speaker 11: It has to be us teaching what we believe is right,

1578
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:04,759
Speaker 11: not what is politically correct, what we believe is correct,

1579
01:19:05,040 --> 01:19:07,120
Speaker 11: and you know what, our children will will believe us

1580
01:19:07,320 --> 01:19:10,639
Speaker 11: for the most part. And so we have to take

1581
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 11: the rings on that we need to have a regular

1582
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 11: conversations with our kids about these really foundational issues and

1583
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,160
Speaker 11: to not be afraid of doing that. And then, of course,

1584
01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 11: second secondarily, we need to do everything within our power

1585
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 11: to keep children's sexual rights advocates out of our schools.

1586
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:30,880
Speaker 11: Planned parenthood for sure should never be in a school.

1587
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 11: You know, we've got to take action politically and locally

1588
01:19:35,439 --> 01:19:38,639
Speaker 11: to keep those kind of influences out of our schools.

1589
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:40,720
Speaker 1: Well, the fifty five CARC Morning Show audience right now

1590
01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:43,559
Speaker 1: screaming at the radius, going hell yeah, you tell them, Kimberly,

1591
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 1: pre K is one more thing for we part company.

1592
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:48,400
Speaker 1: And I will let you know that your book, The

1593
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:51,200
Speaker 1: Invincible Family, White Global Campaign to Crushed Motherhood and Fatherhood

1594
01:19:51,200 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 1: Can't Win, will be on my blog page fifty five

1595
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:54,960
Speaker 1: cars dot com so people can easily get a copy.

1596
01:19:55,040 --> 01:19:57,240
Speaker 1: I will encourage everyone to get a copy and share

1597
01:19:57,280 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: it with anybody out there who is in a bos

1598
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,400
Speaker 1: to guide their children's education. But this push and Biden

1599
01:20:03,439 --> 01:20:04,840
Speaker 1: brought it up in the State of the Union push

1600
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 1: for pre K. They want, I mean suffer the little

1601
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:09,479
Speaker 1: children to come unto me, they want to indoctrinate them

1602
01:20:09,520 --> 01:20:12,799
Speaker 1: from an earlier and earlier age, taking away parents' ability

1603
01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:16,680
Speaker 1: to full mold and form their children's lives in the

1604
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:19,559
Speaker 1: manner in which they see appropriate. That is that's scary

1605
01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:22,400
Speaker 1: to me. That is really scary to me that people

1606
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 1: embrace this like well, I'll be able to go to work.

1607
01:20:24,240 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 1: My kids are going to be basic in babysitting class. No,

1608
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 1: they're going to be an indoctrination camp.

1609
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:29,680
Speaker 4: Right.

1610
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 11: This is one of the things that I've seen just

1611
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 11: in the last month that alarms me the most is

1612
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 11: the Biden Administration's new plan. What they call it, it's

1613
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:41,000
Speaker 11: the US Global Plan for Women's Economic Security. What it

1614
01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 11: is at its core is getting little children away from

1615
01:20:43,800 --> 01:20:46,639
Speaker 11: their mothers and into state care or other care as

1616
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 11: early as possible. That concerns me. I understand we all

1617
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:54,240
Speaker 11: have different circumstances. We need to utilize childcare at some

1618
01:20:54,320 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 11: point in their lives. But if the core of the

1619
01:20:57,760 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 11: objective is to get little children away from their mother

1620
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:03,960
Speaker 11: that's wrong. That's wrong because little children need their mothers

1621
01:21:04,000 --> 01:21:06,760
Speaker 11: and fathers when they are young the most. Because the

1622
01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:09,040
Speaker 11: person who teaches a child when they're little is the

1623
01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:11,240
Speaker 11: one who has the greatest influence upon them for the

1624
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:13,400
Speaker 11: rest of their life. We need to never give that up,

1625
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 11: especially not to the state.

1626
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:19,040
Speaker 1: Amen, kimberly Ls, you're speaking my language, the invisible family.

1627
01:21:19,040 --> 01:21:21,439
Speaker 1: Why the global campaign crushed motherhood and fatherhood can't win

1628
01:21:21,680 --> 01:21:24,599
Speaker 1: definitive statement. I can't thank you enough for writing the book.

1629
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for the time you spoke

1630
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:28,679
Speaker 1: my listeners and me, and again, I'll encourage my listeners

1631
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:29,920
Speaker 1: to get a copy of the book and share the

1632
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:32,680
Speaker 1: love with friends. Kimberly a real pleasure. Keep doing the

1633
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:38,160
Speaker 1: great work. Box Station a thirty one fifty five KRCD

1634
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:42,479
Speaker 1: talk station. Happy for Friday. They've got some good plans

1635
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:44,160
Speaker 1: for the weekend. Looks like the weather's going to cooperate

1636
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,040
Speaker 1: for a change. No thunderstorms predictive over the weekend. And

1637
01:21:47,240 --> 01:21:49,479
Speaker 1: in an effort to fight back against what the National

1638
01:21:49,560 --> 01:21:52,840
Speaker 1: Teachers This Are Education Association wants your children to look

1639
01:21:52,920 --> 01:21:56,559
Speaker 1: at in grades K through six, I suppose I am

1640
01:21:56,560 --> 01:21:59,040
Speaker 1: happy to welcome to the fifty five KRC Morning Show.

1641
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:02,479
Speaker 1: Michelle Hout's local author and a speaker as well. You're

1642
01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:04,640
Speaker 1: still award winning. She's the author of a dozen or

1643
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:07,559
Speaker 1: so books for young readers, and they go from picture

1644
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 1: books to middle grade novels. Michelle, Welcome to the fifty

1645
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: five KRC Morning Show. It's great to have you on today.

1646
01:22:13,479 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 12: Good morning.

1647
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:17,040
Speaker 1: I don't see any title in here like Heather has

1648
01:22:17,080 --> 01:22:20,720
Speaker 1: Two Mommies or anything like that. See looks like light

1649
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: fair for children that will maybe inspire them to be readers.

1650
01:22:24,800 --> 01:22:26,720
Speaker 1: And I got to be honest with you, Michelle, I

1651
01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:30,200
Speaker 1: just was amazed my son and daughter. We both read

1652
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 1: to them a lot when they were little, and their

1653
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:34,720
Speaker 1: ability to pick up and learn to read at a

1654
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:37,639
Speaker 1: very young age was just sort of mind blowing. It's

1655
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:40,519
Speaker 1: children are just like sponges, and if you sit down

1656
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:42,800
Speaker 1: with them on your lap and you go through a

1657
01:22:42,880 --> 01:22:46,320
Speaker 1: picture book and you read it, it's in virtually no time,

1658
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:48,599
Speaker 1: they're picking it up themselves. And I just and both

1659
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:52,000
Speaker 1: of my children have been voracious readers and reading it

1660
01:22:52,120 --> 01:22:55,760
Speaker 1: levels way beyond their years. I think because of that

1661
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:57,639
Speaker 1: really early involvement with reading.

1662
01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:01,880
Speaker 12: Oh definitely. I mean, studies have shown that children who

1663
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 12: are read to are definitely better readers, especially in the

1664
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:09,240
Speaker 12: early ages, in early elementary grades. They just pick up

1665
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:12,919
Speaker 12: on words and sounds and putting that together into sentences

1666
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:15,800
Speaker 12: so much easier if they've been exposed to literature at home.

1667
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:19,479
Speaker 12: But I do think it's really important for all kids

1668
01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 12: to read diversely, to read about cultures other than our

1669
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 12: own than what we see around us, too. And that's

1670
01:23:27,240 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 12: one thing that I'm really happy that the books I've

1671
01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 12: written have been able to show and rural Ohio kid,

1672
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:37,280
Speaker 12: you know, maybe what it's like to hike the Appalation

1673
01:23:37,439 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 12: Trail because the Appalation Trail doesn't even.

1674
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:40,799
Speaker 11: Go through Ohio.

1675
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:41,479
Speaker 1: So true.

1676
01:23:41,640 --> 01:23:42,840
Speaker 4: How would we know what it's.

1677
01:23:42,840 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 12: Like in Georgia or Maine if we didn't see it

1678
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:49,000
Speaker 12: in picture books and read other people's amazing stories.

1679
01:23:49,520 --> 01:23:52,880
Speaker 1: Well, that's the beauty of reading itself. I mean, I've

1680
01:23:52,920 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 1: been a voracious reader my whole life too, and you

1681
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:57,400
Speaker 1: do learn so much about the world and of course

1682
01:23:57,479 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 1: different cultures, different periods of history as well. Huge fan like,

1683
01:24:01,280 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 1: for example, the works of Dostoievsky, and you really have

1684
01:24:03,479 --> 01:24:05,280
Speaker 1: to immerse yourself and what it was like to be

1685
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:08,720
Speaker 1: in Russia in those times when they had such, you know,

1686
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,760
Speaker 1: sort of weird social rules and protocols. And I don't know,

1687
01:24:11,840 --> 01:24:15,599
Speaker 1: I just find it absolutely fascinating. And getting kids reading

1688
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:17,920
Speaker 1: early about these different topics is of course a wonderful thing,

1689
01:24:17,960 --> 01:24:20,200
Speaker 1: and it's a great opportunity to spend some bonding time

1690
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:23,240
Speaker 1: with your children. Let's talk about your it looks like

1691
01:24:23,320 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 1: your newest book, give my listeners an illustration of what

1692
01:24:26,320 --> 01:24:28,920
Speaker 1: you write. And speaking of illustrators, the illustrator you work

1693
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: with regularly, you need to mention her as well. Hopefully

1694
01:24:31,800 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 1: the scarecrow tell us about that.

1695
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:38,439
Speaker 12: Well, hopefully the scarecrow is so important to me because

1696
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:42,360
Speaker 12: in children's books, especially picture books, we kind of have

1697
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:45,799
Speaker 12: a rule that your main character has to be active

1698
01:24:46,000 --> 01:24:49,840
Speaker 12: and solve his own problems and have agency. And you know,

1699
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:52,160
Speaker 12: you can't have a parent swoop in and solve the

1700
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:55,360
Speaker 12: problem for the child, because that's how young children learn

1701
01:24:55,560 --> 01:24:58,800
Speaker 12: to navigate the world around us. And so hopefully the

1702
01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:04,120
Speaker 12: scarecrow has a scarecrow, and who is more helpless than

1703
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:08,519
Speaker 12: a scarecrow. He's stuck arms out in the weather, he

1704
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:12,400
Speaker 12: can't move, he can't speak, And so there was a

1705
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:16,360
Speaker 12: purpose for having such an inactive main character, and that

1706
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,840
Speaker 12: is that. I've been working with children in schools for

1707
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:24,600
Speaker 12: over twenty years, and the biggest change from when I

1708
01:25:24,680 --> 01:25:27,519
Speaker 12: started to when I left the schools to rite full

1709
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 12: time with a number of children being raised by somebody

1710
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:33,040
Speaker 12: other than one of their two parents. So lots of

1711
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 12: grandparents raising kids, lots of children who have had adults

1712
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 12: in their lives who've let them down. Kids they're only

1713
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 12: six or seven years old. So I wanted to you

1714
01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:46,639
Speaker 12: can't write heavy stuff like that in a picture book.

1715
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:48,920
Speaker 12: You can in a middle grade novel, and we don't

1716
01:25:48,960 --> 01:25:53,160
Speaker 12: shy away from those tough subjects that kids, excuse me,

1717
01:25:53,439 --> 01:25:55,400
Speaker 12: go through in a middle grade novel. But in a

1718
01:25:55,439 --> 01:25:58,920
Speaker 12: picture book you have to kind of make an animal

1719
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:02,679
Speaker 12: or an inanimate object be the child. And so that's

1720
01:26:02,720 --> 01:26:05,400
Speaker 12: what I did with Hopefully. The scarecrow. He's in the

1721
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:08,680
Speaker 12: garden and he's exposed to the elements, and when he

1722
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 12: loses hope, all he really has is his own thoughts,

1723
01:26:12,439 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 12: so you know, those thoughts of bravery, of sticking it out,

1724
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 12: of perseverance. So I hope that young children who are

1725
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 12: going through tough times see it themselves in Hopefully and

1726
01:26:24,400 --> 01:26:27,600
Speaker 12: know that hope is a strong and powerful emotion that

1727
01:26:27,720 --> 01:26:30,360
Speaker 12: can get you through when even the people you count

1728
01:26:30,439 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 12: on in life have let you down.

1729
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:34,400
Speaker 1: Isn't that true? And that book is on pre order

1730
01:26:34,479 --> 01:26:36,639
Speaker 1: right now. It's going to be released apparently August eighth.

1731
01:26:38,040 --> 01:26:42,160
Speaker 1: Demonstrably popular your books are. The ratings on Amazon are

1732
01:26:42,200 --> 01:26:44,519
Speaker 1: just mind blowing. For example, SeaGlass Summer, which was came

1733
01:26:44,600 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 1: out in twenty nineteen ninety seven five star reviews. I mean,

1734
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 1: that's that's very impressive. The shell. Give my listeners a

1735
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:58,600
Speaker 1: little dose of a sea Glass Summer, which is I

1736
01:26:58,760 --> 01:27:01,760
Speaker 1: believe recommend what is the recommended age for that one?

1737
01:27:01,800 --> 01:27:03,240
Speaker 1: Because these are all young people.

1738
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,080
Speaker 12: Sure, most picture books are targeted for the four to

1739
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 12: seven year old audience. And what people don't often realize

1740
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:11,840
Speaker 12: is that picture books aren't really meant to be read

1741
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:16,040
Speaker 12: by children. They're meant to be read by adult teachers, parents,

1742
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:19,639
Speaker 12: grandparents with children on their laps and in front of them.

1743
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:23,519
Speaker 12: So picture books are a shared, multi generational experience. And

1744
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:26,800
Speaker 12: SeaGlass Summer is a fiction picture book. And you mentioned

1745
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:29,639
Speaker 12: illustrators a minute ago, and I think something the public

1746
01:27:29,720 --> 01:27:32,800
Speaker 12: often doesn't know is that when you're traditionally published. So

1747
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:37,040
Speaker 12: when I say traditionally published, I mean published by Random House,

1748
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:41,040
Speaker 12: the New York publishers, or even smaller publishers, like three

1749
01:27:41,080 --> 01:27:43,599
Speaker 12: of my books are with Ohio University Press right here

1750
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:47,440
Speaker 12: in Ohio. But that's still traditional publishing. When you traditionally

1751
01:27:47,479 --> 01:27:51,240
Speaker 12: publish versus self published, an author of a picture book

1752
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:55,240
Speaker 12: does not get to choose the illustrator. And so that's

1753
01:27:55,360 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 12: because a picture book is a marriage of art and words,

1754
01:27:58,640 --> 01:28:01,280
Speaker 12: and there was no illustrator telling me what words to use,

1755
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:05,519
Speaker 12: so I cannot dictate how the visual aspect of the

1756
01:28:05,640 --> 01:28:09,479
Speaker 12: story is told. That's the illustrator's job. So Sea Glass

1757
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:14,720
Speaker 12: Summer is published by Kendlewick Press in Boston. And when

1758
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:18,839
Speaker 12: they told me that a man named Bagram Batarine from Russia,

1759
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:22,160
Speaker 12: a Russian American, he's been in America for ten years.

1760
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:27,920
Speaker 12: But fine art illustrations, somebody I could never first of

1761
01:28:27,920 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 12: all reach nor afford as if I were hiring my

1762
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:37,840
Speaker 12: own illustrators. The pictures in SeaGlass Summer are like museum worthy. Yeh,

1763
01:28:37,920 --> 01:28:41,440
Speaker 12: fine arts illustration, and they are just I'm looking.

1764
01:28:41,240 --> 01:28:43,759
Speaker 1: At them right now because you can look inside on Amazon.

1765
01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,120
Speaker 1: As everybody knows, you click on the link and look inside. Yeah,

1766
01:28:46,320 --> 01:28:49,559
Speaker 1: absolutely beautiful works in there. There is no question about

1767
01:28:49,560 --> 01:28:52,240
Speaker 1: it looks like water color. They're they're just they're just fantastic.

1768
01:28:53,080 --> 01:28:57,640
Speaker 12: It is watercolor. Yeah, And so people often ask, you know,

1769
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:00,640
Speaker 12: so when you get the illustration, so you ever disappointed?

1770
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:04,000
Speaker 12: And I've been so lucky, so lucky and blessed to

1771
01:29:04,360 --> 01:29:08,760
Speaker 12: have been paired with amazing illustrators from all over the US.

1772
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:11,599
Speaker 12: And I've only met maybe one or two of them.

1773
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:17,320
Speaker 12: They usually keep those two creators separate, especially during the

1774
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:18,080
Speaker 12: creative process.

1775
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just so weird to me that you're the

1776
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:22,120
Speaker 1: author of the words and the vision for the book,

1777
01:29:22,160 --> 01:29:24,959
Speaker 1: that you don't have any control over who does the illustration.

1778
01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:27,760
Speaker 1: It just seems like a foreign concept. But this is

1779
01:29:27,840 --> 01:29:30,160
Speaker 1: how life works, and it certainly worked out really well

1780
01:29:30,240 --> 01:29:33,040
Speaker 1: with you and these books. Let's pivot over because in

1781
01:29:33,120 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 1: addition to children's book, you wrote Count the Wings, the

1782
01:29:36,320 --> 01:29:38,639
Speaker 1: Life and Art of Charlie Harper. Now, if people don't

1783
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:41,800
Speaker 1: immediately remember who Charlie Harper is, go to Google and

1784
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:46,040
Speaker 1: type in Charlie Harper and then click images. Everybody knows

1785
01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 1: this artist work. And honestly, Michelle, I think we have

1786
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:52,920
Speaker 1: probably six or eight Charlie Harper puzzles in our house.

1787
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:55,320
Speaker 1: I mean, these things are fantastic illustrations.

1788
01:29:55,640 --> 01:29:59,920
Speaker 12: Yes, so I was so lucky. This is Charlie Harp

1789
01:30:00,080 --> 01:30:02,840
Speaker 12: for book and Camy on first. I don't know if

1790
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:05,719
Speaker 12: we'll have time to talk about Dotti Kimichick, but both

1791
01:30:05,760 --> 01:30:08,560
Speaker 12: of those are actually still children's books. They're part of

1792
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:12,160
Speaker 12: the Biographies for Young Readers series from Ohio University Press,

1793
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 12: and that series set out to tell the story of

1794
01:30:15,760 --> 01:30:19,320
Speaker 12: amazing Ohioans that maybe kids don't know their stories. And

1795
01:30:19,360 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 12: when I say kids were talking the eight to fourteen

1796
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:25,360
Speaker 12: year old readers here. And so, you know, Ohio has

1797
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 12: all these great astronauts and presidents, former presidents, and their

1798
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:31,719
Speaker 12: stories are told over and over again.

1799
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:32,760
Speaker 4: But we went on the.

1800
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:37,400
Speaker 12: Search at Ohio University Press for some really amazing stories

1801
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 12: and we found Charlie Harper. Never had a biography written

1802
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 12: about him for the young reader. His art, his love

1803
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:50,000
Speaker 12: of nature. He was way ahead of his time as

1804
01:30:50,080 --> 01:30:52,639
Speaker 12: far as protecting the environment.

1805
01:30:52,800 --> 01:30:55,920
Speaker 11: He was just and his so almost all of his

1806
01:30:56,080 --> 01:30:58,479
Speaker 11: art is nature art. But what makes it so special?

1807
01:30:58,640 --> 01:31:01,559
Speaker 12: And you know, if you think of that Harper cardinal,

1808
01:31:01,720 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 12: that red cardinal that he's so famous for, iconics really

1809
01:31:05,520 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 12: a teardrop and some triangles, and so he reduced everything

1810
01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:14,680
Speaker 12: into its most basic shapes and lines and colors, and

1811
01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:17,920
Speaker 12: even the youngest child can look at the most simple

1812
01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:20,800
Speaker 12: shape and say, oh that's a polar bear, Oh that's

1813
01:31:20,840 --> 01:31:25,160
Speaker 12: a cardinal. And it was so fun telling his story.

1814
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 12: I worked with his son, Brett Harper, right there in Cincinnati,

1815
01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:32,639
Speaker 12: and his work is some of it on public display.

1816
01:31:33,240 --> 01:31:35,720
Speaker 12: He has murals at the Duke Energy Center. He has

1817
01:31:35,800 --> 01:31:38,800
Speaker 12: the zoo barn with the animals.

1818
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:38,920
Speaker 1: All over it.

1819
01:31:39,640 --> 01:31:42,320
Speaker 12: There's a big mural of two hummingbirds on the side

1820
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:44,799
Speaker 12: of a building, and I can't remember where that's located

1821
01:31:44,880 --> 01:31:48,440
Speaker 12: in Cincinnati, but there's a lot of public display.

1822
01:31:48,080 --> 01:31:50,360
Speaker 1: Of his work really is all over the place, And

1823
01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:52,240
Speaker 1: of course you go through the museum library, there are

1824
01:31:52,240 --> 01:31:54,200
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of opportunities to buy puzzles

1825
01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:56,960
Speaker 1: with his work on it. Those things are fantastic and

1826
01:31:57,120 --> 01:31:58,760
Speaker 1: real quick. Here we'll just a real quick moment. I'll

1827
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:00,800
Speaker 1: take you over, just an extra thirty forty seconds. Here

1828
01:32:01,040 --> 01:32:05,200
Speaker 1: Cammi on first base. Another baseball's Dottie camon Check.

1829
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:09,040
Speaker 12: Yes, so we all know the movie A League of

1830
01:32:09,080 --> 01:32:11,960
Speaker 12: their own and the main character, Dottie Hinson was played

1831
01:32:11,960 --> 01:32:17,000
Speaker 12: by Gina Davis. And although the director Penny Marshall stated

1832
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:22,000
Speaker 12: many times that no character was portrayed exactly as a

1833
01:32:22,120 --> 01:32:24,599
Speaker 12: living character that really played for the All American Girls

1834
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:28,599
Speaker 12: Professional Baseball League, everyone believes that Cincinnati's Dottie Cameron Check

1835
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:32,960
Speaker 12: was Dottie Hinson in her leadership skills, in her playing skills.

1836
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:36,559
Speaker 12: Stephen looks a lot like her, so it was really

1837
01:32:36,640 --> 01:32:39,880
Speaker 12: fun to tell her story. Dottie grew up in the

1838
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:44,920
Speaker 12: Norwood area of Cincinnati, an only child of Romanian immigrants,

1839
01:32:45,040 --> 01:32:49,639
Speaker 12: and she just became the star of the Rockford Peaches,

1840
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:52,679
Speaker 12: which was one of the All American girls baseball teams

1841
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 12: that played during the time that Major League Baseball was

1842
01:32:57,880 --> 01:33:00,519
Speaker 12: facing a hiatus or at least a slow down during

1843
01:33:00,600 --> 01:33:01,160
Speaker 12: World War Two.

1844
01:33:02,120 --> 01:33:05,120
Speaker 1: Well, I tell you what fascinating books. Wonderful opportunity for

1845
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 1: you to develop your children's learning skills and enjoy and

1846
01:33:08,120 --> 01:33:12,080
Speaker 1: learn yourself and exchange thoughts and ideas. Michelle Houtse, appreciate

1847
01:33:12,160 --> 01:33:13,280
Speaker 1: what you do, and I know you do a lot

1848
01:33:13,320 --> 01:33:16,760
Speaker 1: of speaking engagements as well. I'll turn my listeners to

1849
01:33:16,840 --> 01:33:19,080
Speaker 1: my blog page and podcast paget fifty five care Sea

1850
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:20,960
Speaker 1: dot com. Joe's going to put a link to your

1851
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 1: work so they can easily get doctor Patrick Moore. And

1852
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:26,360
Speaker 1: given the subject matter of his book we're talking about today,

1853
01:33:26,400 --> 01:33:30,080
Speaker 1: fake invisible catastrophes and threats to doom, you may be surprised,

1854
01:33:30,120 --> 01:33:32,080
Speaker 1: as I was, to find out he's a lifelong independent

1855
01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:36,479
Speaker 1: scientist and environmentalist, co founder of Greenpeace back in nineteen

1856
01:33:36,560 --> 01:33:38,720
Speaker 1: seventy one. He was a director for fifteen years, a

1857
01:33:38,840 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 1: leader of a whole lot of their campaigns, including ending

1858
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:44,599
Speaker 1: nuclear weapons testing, saving the whales, and ending toxic dumping.

1859
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 1: In the mid nineteen eighties, apparently became disenchanted with the

1860
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 1: positions as fellow Greenpeace directors were adopting using misinformation, sensation,

1861
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:55,920
Speaker 1: and fear for fundraising rather than using valid science, and

1862
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 1: therefore he struck out on his own trying to find

1863
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:02,080
Speaker 1: a more sensible environmentalists and basing policies on sound science.

1864
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:05,160
Speaker 1: Hence the book And welcome to the program, doctor Moore,

1865
01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 1: Fake invisible catastrophes and threats to do And it's great

1866
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:08,920
Speaker 1: to have you on the program.

1867
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:12,439
Speaker 9: Thanks for having me on. Brian's pleasure.

1868
01:34:12,880 --> 01:34:15,400
Speaker 1: Well, it's my pleasure. Normally we have you know, sort

1869
01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:18,519
Speaker 1: of conservative, right leaning or flying in the face of

1870
01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:22,400
Speaker 1: the green philosophy, the regret of Thunbergs of the road,

1871
01:34:22,439 --> 01:34:24,799
Speaker 1: but they don't have the background you have. You spring

1872
01:34:24,920 --> 01:34:27,799
Speaker 1: from a tremendous amount of credibility because you were entrenched

1873
01:34:27,880 --> 01:34:30,760
Speaker 1: with the green peace movement and the good work, the

1874
01:34:30,960 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: arguably very legitimate work they were doing. Somewhere it took

1875
01:34:34,560 --> 01:34:38,800
Speaker 1: an off road and I guess is it all about

1876
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:40,880
Speaker 1: the Benjamins? If I can put the term that way,

1877
01:34:41,000 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 1: is that the reason Greenpeace went off the rails just

1878
01:34:43,000 --> 01:34:45,200
Speaker 1: the huge amounts of money they were bringing in.

1879
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 9: Well, yes, we were basically hijacked by the political left

1880
01:34:50,880 --> 01:34:55,200
Speaker 9: when they realized how much fundraising there was possible in

1881
01:34:55,280 --> 01:34:59,120
Speaker 9: the environmental movement. I was on all four of the

1882
01:34:59,200 --> 01:35:02,639
Speaker 9: Save the Whales campaigns out into the Pacific Ocean, getting

1883
01:35:02,680 --> 01:35:06,320
Speaker 9: in front of the Russian harpoons and working really hard

1884
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:09,719
Speaker 9: to get people aware of the fact that thirty thousand

1885
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:12,639
Speaker 9: whales were being slaughtered every year over the horizon where

1886
01:35:12,680 --> 01:35:15,880
Speaker 9: no one could see it, and we stopped that back then.

1887
01:35:16,280 --> 01:35:19,800
Speaker 9: And now I find myself in a situation today where

1888
01:35:19,920 --> 01:35:26,160
Speaker 9: Greenpeace is siding with fifteen hundred giant wind turbines against

1889
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:29,400
Speaker 9: the whales off the Atlantic coast of the United States.

1890
01:35:29,920 --> 01:35:33,400
Speaker 9: That's what I'm embroiled in right now. But I have

1891
01:35:33,560 --> 01:35:36,800
Speaker 9: written this book Fake Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom,

1892
01:35:37,200 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 9: the premise of which is nearly all the scare stories today,

1893
01:35:41,520 --> 01:35:46,400
Speaker 9: whether it's about CO two or radiation or GMOs, and

1894
01:35:46,640 --> 01:35:50,719
Speaker 9: even the polar bears and coral reefs, are about things

1895
01:35:50,760 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 9: that are either invisible or so remote that no one

1896
01:35:54,439 --> 01:35:57,599
Speaker 9: can observe it. For themselves. No one can see carbon

1897
01:35:57,640 --> 01:36:02,759
Speaker 9: dioxide or radiation in GMOs that's bad is non existent

1898
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:06,440
Speaker 9: because it doesn't even have a name. They just say monsanto,

1899
01:36:06,880 --> 01:36:10,600
Speaker 9: as if that's a reason for being against this important

1900
01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:15,400
Speaker 9: new way of modifying the genetics of our foods to

1901
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:18,600
Speaker 9: get rid of bad chemicals to put better chemicals in.

1902
01:36:19,360 --> 01:36:23,200
Speaker 9: Like with the Golden rice, we can actually create rice

1903
01:36:23,280 --> 01:36:25,840
Speaker 9: that would prevent a million or more children from dying

1904
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:29,439
Speaker 9: every year. And these guys are against it because it's genetic,

1905
01:36:29,800 --> 01:36:33,400
Speaker 9: and everything is genetic, and all of us are modified.

1906
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:36,160
Speaker 9: None of us are exactly the same as our parents.

1907
01:36:36,479 --> 01:36:39,760
Speaker 9: We are genetically modified, and they're using this term as

1908
01:36:39,800 --> 01:36:42,799
Speaker 9: if it's something evil, when in fact it's the basis

1909
01:36:42,920 --> 01:36:47,840
Speaker 9: of evolution. So I have had a hard time with

1910
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:50,800
Speaker 9: this over the years because I left Green Peace thirty

1911
01:36:50,920 --> 01:36:54,559
Speaker 9: years ago when they went bad, and they went bad

1912
01:36:55,040 --> 01:36:57,760
Speaker 9: when they started saying that humans are the enemies of

1913
01:36:57,800 --> 01:37:01,320
Speaker 9: the earth at a philosophical level, that's just too much

1914
01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:05,439
Speaker 9: like original sin for me. And also when the sharp

1915
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:08,040
Speaker 9: end of the stick they my fellow directors, none of

1916
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:12,000
Speaker 9: who had any science education, decided that we should ban

1917
01:37:12,280 --> 01:37:15,519
Speaker 9: chlorine worldwide and make a campaign out of it, and

1918
01:37:15,800 --> 01:37:20,360
Speaker 9: they nicknamed chlorine the devil's element, when in fact, chlorine

1919
01:37:20,439 --> 01:37:23,320
Speaker 9: is the most important element of all the elements for

1920
01:37:23,520 --> 01:37:24,959
Speaker 9: public health and medicine.

1921
01:37:25,080 --> 01:37:27,720
Speaker 1: It's a lifesaver. I mean, how many have you done

1922
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:30,680
Speaker 1: any research on how many people would die from infections

1923
01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,519
Speaker 1: or otherwise if it weren't for chlorine, for example, in

1924
01:37:33,600 --> 01:37:35,840
Speaker 1: our water system to kill bacteria in the like.

1925
01:37:37,600 --> 01:37:40,840
Speaker 9: Yes, and that's just the beginning of it. Sodium chloride

1926
01:37:40,920 --> 01:37:44,360
Speaker 9: table salt is an essential nutrient. I mean, you don't

1927
01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:46,120
Speaker 9: want to take too much of it. It could kill

1928
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:49,560
Speaker 9: you if you did it. Would you know, dehydrate the

1929
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:51,600
Speaker 9: insides of your body if you drank a half a

1930
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:57,160
Speaker 9: cup of it. But the truth is chlorine is the

1931
01:37:57,320 --> 01:38:00,880
Speaker 9: main element in many of our medicines. Eighty five percent

1932
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:04,160
Speaker 9: of all our pharmaceuticals are made with chlorine chemistry, and

1933
01:38:04,320 --> 01:38:07,519
Speaker 9: twenty five percent have chlorine in them. If you look

1934
01:38:07,600 --> 01:38:10,840
Speaker 9: at the flu and cold remedies you might take, you'll

1935
01:38:10,880 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 9: see a little cl at the end of many of

1936
01:38:13,320 --> 01:38:18,160
Speaker 9: the ingredients. So they just went completely off the rails there,

1937
01:38:18,520 --> 01:38:20,800
Speaker 9: and that is when I had to quit. I quit

1938
01:38:20,920 --> 01:38:24,040
Speaker 9: in nineteen eighty six because they decided to have a

1939
01:38:24,160 --> 01:38:28,120
Speaker 9: campaign to ban chlorine, and they called TVC otherwise known

1940
01:38:28,160 --> 01:38:31,680
Speaker 9: as vinyl, the poison plastic when it is about the

1941
01:38:31,800 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 9: least poisonous thing in the world, they're making everybody believe

1942
01:38:36,680 --> 01:38:40,920
Speaker 9: that plastic is poisonous. That's that's why we wrap our

1943
01:38:40,960 --> 01:38:44,720
Speaker 9: food in it, because it's poisonous. No, because that's how

1944
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:47,799
Speaker 9: we keep the food from being contaminated is by packaging

1945
01:38:47,880 --> 01:38:54,040
Speaker 9: it and wrapping it in plastic foil and putting it

1946
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:58,640
Speaker 9: in containers. And when plastic goes in the ocean, it

1947
01:38:58,840 --> 01:39:03,320
Speaker 9: isn't actually negati it's like driftwood. Lots of species grow

1948
01:39:03,439 --> 01:39:06,240
Speaker 9: on it, and then other species eat the species that

1949
01:39:06,280 --> 01:39:10,519
Speaker 9: are growing on the plastic. And birds actually purposely give

1950
01:39:10,720 --> 01:39:13,439
Speaker 9: bits of hard plastic to their chicks in the same

1951
01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:16,599
Speaker 9: way that land birds give pebbles to their chicks when

1952
01:39:16,640 --> 01:39:20,080
Speaker 9: they're in the nest and then continue to ingest pebbles

1953
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:23,040
Speaker 9: for the rest of their lives. There's no pebbles on

1954
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:27,519
Speaker 9: the ocean islands where albatross and other seabirds roost, so

1955
01:39:27,680 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 9: they have to work really hard to get hard bits

1956
01:39:31,560 --> 01:39:35,720
Speaker 9: of material for the gizzard of the chick, and they

1957
01:39:35,840 --> 01:39:40,920
Speaker 9: use pummus, which is under sea volcanoes floating to the surface,

1958
01:39:41,000 --> 01:39:43,360
Speaker 9: little bits of it. They use bits of hard wood,

1959
01:39:43,760 --> 01:39:47,920
Speaker 9: they use big nuts from trees. When they see the

1960
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:50,839
Speaker 9: squid to their chick, the squid goes into the gizzard,

1961
01:39:50,920 --> 01:39:54,000
Speaker 9: and the gizzard retains the beak of the squid as

1962
01:39:54,040 --> 01:39:57,120
Speaker 9: a hard object to help grind the food. Because you see,

1963
01:39:57,160 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 9: birds don't have teas. All the mammals have teeth pretty well,

1964
01:40:01,320 --> 01:40:04,200
Speaker 9: but birds don't, and so they have two stomachs, and

1965
01:40:04,360 --> 01:40:06,880
Speaker 9: one of them has to have hard objects in it.

1966
01:40:07,000 --> 01:40:11,120
Speaker 9: And birds purposely use plastic bits of the right size

1967
01:40:11,160 --> 01:40:15,479
Speaker 9: and shape to act as a digestive aid in the gizzard.

1968
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:19,240
Speaker 9: And that's this is what people aren't being told. And

1969
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 9: even the Smithsonian Institute is publishing these pictures that are

1970
01:40:23,160 --> 01:40:29,000
Speaker 9: fake of a baby albatross sliced open, dead with like

1971
01:40:29,200 --> 01:40:31,000
Speaker 9: about two pounds of plastic in it.

1972
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:32,439
Speaker 4: That never happens.

1973
01:40:32,920 --> 01:40:35,200
Speaker 9: They have staged these things. Go on the internet and

1974
01:40:35,240 --> 01:40:39,040
Speaker 9: look and if you want to find the Pacific garbage patch,

1975
01:40:39,920 --> 01:40:42,920
Speaker 9: which everybody thinks is twice the size of Texas, it

1976
01:40:43,120 --> 01:40:47,439
Speaker 9: does not exist. It is a phony thing. Just because

1977
01:40:47,479 --> 01:40:50,240
Speaker 9: people can't see it over the horizon. They can they

1978
01:40:50,320 --> 01:40:54,759
Speaker 9: put this they're all photoshop globs hainted on a picture

1979
01:40:54,920 --> 01:40:58,360
Speaker 9: this of the Pacific Ocean. There is no Pacific garbage

1980
01:40:58,439 --> 01:41:01,599
Speaker 9: patch choice to side as a textas and growing sixteen

1981
01:41:01,680 --> 01:41:04,720
Speaker 9: times faster than anybody imagine. That's what CNN has to

1982
01:41:04,760 --> 01:41:07,080
Speaker 9: say about it. Yeah, and they don't show the Pacific

1983
01:41:07,160 --> 01:41:11,880
Speaker 9: garbage batch. Why because it's fake. And so this is

1984
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:15,760
Speaker 9: what I'm up against, and with the media of course

1985
01:41:16,160 --> 01:41:18,639
Speaker 9: very much on site with the scare stories.

1986
01:41:19,000 --> 01:41:23,080
Speaker 1: Clearly well, doctor Moore, I guess let us analyze. We

1987
01:41:23,200 --> 01:41:28,439
Speaker 1: have mentioning energy obviously the green alarmists or after any

1988
01:41:28,479 --> 01:41:32,080
Speaker 1: form of fossil fuel in the name of reducing carbon output. Fine,

1989
01:41:32,120 --> 01:41:34,799
Speaker 1: let's move away from that. They hate nuclear. Nuclear provides

1990
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:38,400
Speaker 1: carbon free, abundant power, and they hate that as well.

1991
01:41:38,680 --> 01:41:40,720
Speaker 1: We can look at the XO pipeline's cancelation in the

1992
01:41:40,800 --> 01:41:42,840
Speaker 1: name of environmentalism. The oil is still coming out of

1993
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:45,760
Speaker 1: the ground. It's going across the road in railcars, as

1994
01:41:45,800 --> 01:41:48,240
Speaker 1: opposed through a pipeline, which are far more dangerous. It

1995
01:41:48,360 --> 01:41:50,400
Speaker 1: does nothing to help the environment. In fact, it's worse

1996
01:41:50,439 --> 01:41:52,599
Speaker 1: for the environment because the trucks are belching out diesel

1997
01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:55,320
Speaker 1: or the rank or the railcars are to ship it

1998
01:41:55,360 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: where it needs to go to ultimately be consumed, which

1999
01:41:58,160 --> 01:42:02,719
Speaker 1: it will. They're going after fertile because well, fertilizers require

2000
01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:06,479
Speaker 1: natural gas reproduction, so that's bad, which will threaten the

2001
01:42:06,600 --> 01:42:09,519
Speaker 1: food security of the world. They're going after our energy security,

2002
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:13,360
Speaker 1: They're going after our food security. They're going after human beings,

2003
01:42:13,400 --> 01:42:15,880
Speaker 1: aren't they. Is this not just a whole big ruse

2004
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:18,600
Speaker 1: to reduce the population, because that's the final reality of

2005
01:42:18,680 --> 01:42:19,320
Speaker 1: what they're trying.

2006
01:42:21,320 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, and if they can't figure that out, they're pretty

2007
01:42:23,439 --> 01:42:26,839
Speaker 9: stupid that this is the problem. As I said earlier,

2008
01:42:27,320 --> 01:42:31,000
Speaker 9: they basically believe that humans are the enemies of nature,

2009
01:42:31,080 --> 01:42:34,640
Speaker 9: the enemies of the earth. And so you know, this

2010
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:37,439
Speaker 9: is way too much like original stin for me, most

2011
01:42:37,479 --> 01:42:40,000
Speaker 9: people are good. There are lots of bad people, and

2012
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:42,719
Speaker 9: these are some of them that are preaching this idea

2013
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:45,360
Speaker 9: that we should take away the energy that runs our

2014
01:42:45,439 --> 01:42:49,120
Speaker 9: machines and the energy that runs our bodies, which is food.

2015
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:54,080
Speaker 9: There's no way you can have life without energy. And

2016
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:57,680
Speaker 9: the great irony of this is that carbon dioxide is

2017
01:42:57,720 --> 01:43:01,360
Speaker 9: the basis of all life, right, life is life is

2018
01:43:01,439 --> 01:43:06,519
Speaker 9: carbon based. Organic chemistry is the chemistry of carbon, and

2019
01:43:06,760 --> 01:43:11,519
Speaker 9: all organic matters have carbon in them, and we are organic.

2020
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:17,400
Speaker 9: We humans were made out of carbon dioxide being taken

2021
01:43:17,479 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 9: in by plants first, and then we eat the plants,

2022
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:23,960
Speaker 9: or we eat the animals that eat the plants, and

2023
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:27,639
Speaker 9: that's how we get our energy and the building blocks

2024
01:43:27,920 --> 01:43:31,320
Speaker 9: for our proteins and everything else. Practically in our body

2025
01:43:31,920 --> 01:43:36,000
Speaker 9: except for our bones. All of flesh on an animal

2026
01:43:36,439 --> 01:43:40,920
Speaker 9: is made with carbon. And the other irony is that

2027
01:43:41,040 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 9: carbon dioxide is at one of the lowest levels it

2028
01:43:44,200 --> 01:43:46,960
Speaker 9: ever has been in the history of the Earth in

2029
01:43:47,040 --> 01:43:51,560
Speaker 9: the atmosphere. In fact, during the most recent glacial advance,

2030
01:43:51,960 --> 01:43:55,800
Speaker 9: which peaked about twenty thousand years ago, one of about

2031
01:43:55,920 --> 01:43:58,320
Speaker 9: forty that have happened in the place to see ice

2032
01:43:58,360 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 9: age CO two, saying, so the lowest it's ever been

2033
01:44:01,320 --> 01:44:04,000
Speaker 9: in the history of the Earth one hundred and eighty

2034
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:07,599
Speaker 9: parts per million. At one hundred and fifty parts per million,

2035
01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:12,000
Speaker 9: plants start to die because they don't just need CO two,

2036
01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:14,240
Speaker 9: They need a certain level of it, just like we

2037
01:44:14,400 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 9: need a certain level of oxygen to survive. When we

2038
01:44:19,400 --> 01:44:23,160
Speaker 9: breathe out. We are breathing out between forty and fifty

2039
01:44:23,280 --> 01:44:27,400
Speaker 9: thousand parts per million CO two. The atmosphere has four

2040
01:44:27,520 --> 01:44:30,519
Speaker 9: hundred and twenty parts per million in it, which is

2041
01:44:30,680 --> 01:44:34,360
Speaker 9: way lower than plants would prefer. They would light eight

2042
01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:37,880
Speaker 9: hundred twelve hundred, two thousand parts per million. That's why

2043
01:44:38,080 --> 01:44:43,000
Speaker 9: all commercial greenhouse growers put extra CO two in their

2044
01:44:43,040 --> 01:44:47,960
Speaker 9: greenhouses get thirty to sixty percent higher growth of food.

2045
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:51,240
Speaker 9: CO two is at a low level now in the

2046
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:54,920
Speaker 9: global atmosphere, not at a high level. It used to

2047
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:59,080
Speaker 9: be five thousand parts per million. When dinosaurs roam the earth,

2048
01:45:00,120 --> 01:45:03,800
Speaker 9: it was up to three to five thousand ppm. Is

2049
01:45:04,080 --> 01:45:07,760
Speaker 9: not correlated. It is not correlated with temperature in the

2050
01:45:07,880 --> 01:45:10,760
Speaker 9: long term record. These people are taking the last two

2051
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:13,519
Speaker 9: hundred years and saying, well, it's getting a little bit

2052
01:45:13,600 --> 01:45:16,360
Speaker 9: warmer now and CO two is going up, so therefore

2053
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:19,680
Speaker 9: CO two must cause the warming. If you go back

2054
01:45:19,720 --> 01:45:23,000
Speaker 9: in history, you will see that the correlation between CO

2055
01:45:23,280 --> 01:45:28,000
Speaker 9: two and temperature is almost nonexistent. There was a period

2056
01:45:28,080 --> 01:45:32,000
Speaker 9: of two hundred thousand years two hundred million years in

2057
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:35,120
Speaker 9: between the last Ice Age and this one when CO

2058
01:45:35,360 --> 01:45:38,400
Speaker 9: two and temperature were at complete opposite odds to each other.

2059
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:41,679
Speaker 9: CO two was going up while temperature was going down,

2060
01:45:42,080 --> 01:45:46,200
Speaker 9: and conversely CO two was going down while temperature was

2061
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:50,280
Speaker 9: going up. It is there for anyone to see. It's

2062
01:45:50,400 --> 01:45:53,360
Speaker 9: all in my book. There's one hundred graphs and plates

2063
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 9: and charts which show the history of CO two and

2064
01:45:56,640 --> 01:46:00,800
Speaker 9: temperature of the Earth, among many other things. And yet

2065
01:46:01,120 --> 01:46:04,760
Speaker 9: even though it's sold very well on Amazon, it has

2066
01:46:04,840 --> 01:46:08,840
Speaker 9: more than two seven hundred reviews, ninety five percent are

2067
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:11,559
Speaker 9: four and five star reviews. It's been in the top

2068
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:15,960
Speaker 9: ten bestsellers in environment and other categories since it came

2069
01:46:16,000 --> 01:46:19,240
Speaker 9: out two years ago, and it has sold well.

2070
01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:24,680
Speaker 1: But the media just ignores it, ignores it much in

2071
01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:26,640
Speaker 1: the way the green movement ignores the points that you

2072
01:46:26,760 --> 01:46:29,120
Speaker 1: make that I've made million times before. Ohio is flat

2073
01:46:29,240 --> 01:46:31,600
Speaker 1: because we were once covered by a giant glacier and

2074
01:46:32,000 --> 01:46:34,720
Speaker 1: I'm glad it melted. We have great farmland now here

2075
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:38,120
Speaker 1: in the state of Ohio. Doctor Patrick Moore, author of Fake,

2076
01:46:38,200 --> 01:46:41,360
Speaker 1: Invisible Catastrophes and Threats of Doom, get a copy of

2077
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:43,599
Speaker 1: fifty five cares dot com. We got a link there, doctor,

2078
01:46:43,600 --> 01:46:45,560
Speaker 1: where my listeners can get it. I hope they get it.

2079
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:47,040
Speaker 1: I hope they read it. I hope they share it

2080
01:46:47,120 --> 01:46:49,920
Speaker 1: with their friends and spread truth and speaking of truth,

2081
01:46:50,200 --> 01:46:52,760
Speaker 1: Doctor Moore, thank you for speaking truth to power. This

2082
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:57,679
Speaker 1: is very refreshing and particularly given your credibility having grown

2083
01:46:57,760 --> 01:46:59,800
Speaker 1: up in the green movement, it's a real pleasure having

2084
01:46:59,800 --> 01:47:01,960
Speaker 1: you on the show, and I wish you the best

2085
01:47:02,000 --> 01:47:04,599
Speaker 1: of luck and continue to fight the good fight. My friend,

2086
01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:06,320
Speaker 1: I don't know how he ended up a Hillsdale College.

2087
01:47:06,320 --> 01:47:07,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask him out of the gate. Mark Moyer,

2088
01:47:07,880 --> 01:47:09,840
Speaker 1: Welcome to the program. You got to ba summa, come

2089
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:13,360
Speaker 1: loudly from Harvard University, after year before your PhD at

2090
01:47:13,439 --> 01:47:16,240
Speaker 1: university at Cambridge, and yet you're at Hillsdale College. Good

2091
01:47:16,280 --> 01:47:17,519
Speaker 1: to have you on the program, sir.

2092
01:47:19,160 --> 01:47:20,600
Speaker 13: Now, thanks for having me, Brian.

2093
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:23,599
Speaker 1: Survive the woke reality of Harvard and your new book

2094
01:47:23,600 --> 01:47:26,439
Speaker 1: which we're talking about today, Triumph Regain, the Vietnam War

2095
01:47:26,600 --> 01:47:29,639
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, the nineteen sixty eight, nineteen sixty five,

2096
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:31,599
Speaker 1: the year of my birth. What makes these three years

2097
01:47:31,720 --> 01:47:35,599
Speaker 1: so important or at least maybe distinct that you carved

2098
01:47:35,760 --> 01:47:39,360
Speaker 1: them out of the broader full length of the conflict? Mark?

2099
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:45,919
Speaker 13: Yeah, so, I had previously written a book called Triumph Forsaken,

2100
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:49,200
Speaker 13: which covered the war up to nineteen sixty five, which

2101
01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:51,960
Speaker 13: is basically, how did the US get into the Vietnam

2102
01:47:52,040 --> 01:47:56,120
Speaker 13: War and it ends with the Lennon Johnson making a

2103
01:47:56,160 --> 01:47:59,960
Speaker 13: decision on putting US troops in. So this book picks

2104
01:48:00,320 --> 01:48:03,960
Speaker 13: up with the actual arrival of American troops, and it's

2105
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:08,920
Speaker 13: in many ways a decisive period of the war. Goes

2106
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:11,400
Speaker 13: through the end of nineteen sixty eight, when Lyndon Johnson

2107
01:48:11,520 --> 01:48:14,960
Speaker 13: leaves office and is replaced by Richard Nixon, but the

2108
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:19,040
Speaker 13: war rapidly turns around in nineteen sixty five and then

2109
01:48:19,200 --> 01:48:22,240
Speaker 13: enters a period of stalemate leading up to the tet

2110
01:48:22,280 --> 01:48:23,639
Speaker 13: offense of nineteen sixty eight.

2111
01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:27,360
Speaker 1: Well, we had quote unquote advisors there, right, I mean,

2112
01:48:27,439 --> 01:48:31,080
Speaker 1: didn't that start what was the Eisenhower administration or Kennedy administration,

2113
01:48:31,200 --> 01:48:34,400
Speaker 1: We started sending folks over there. This was a this

2114
01:48:34,840 --> 01:48:37,439
Speaker 1: whole conflict was being addressed by wasn't it the French

2115
01:48:37,600 --> 01:48:38,960
Speaker 1: prior to our taking over?

2116
01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:45,160
Speaker 13: Yes, the Eisenhower administration sent relatively small number, less than

2117
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:48,599
Speaker 13: one thousand, and then when Kennedy comes in in nineteen

2118
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:53,240
Speaker 13: sixty one, he decides he's going to up that number

2119
01:48:53,920 --> 01:48:57,000
Speaker 13: quite significantly, so it's up to about sixteen thousand by

2120
01:48:57,040 --> 01:49:01,240
Speaker 13: the time he's assassinated. And then when Johnson will increase

2121
01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:03,400
Speaker 13: that further hoping not to put In America tooths. But

2122
01:49:03,439 --> 01:49:07,280
Speaker 13: the South Vietnamese government goes into a tailspin after a

2123
01:49:07,600 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 13: coup of nineteen sixty three, and then that will necessitate

2124
01:49:11,439 --> 01:49:14,479
Speaker 13: the US put in ground forces in order to avert

2125
01:49:14,720 --> 01:49:15,639
Speaker 13: total defeat.

2126
01:49:16,280 --> 01:49:20,200
Speaker 1: Well, okay, there's the fundamental question, why did we care?

2127
01:49:20,400 --> 01:49:22,439
Speaker 1: Why do we go to war in Vietnam? And what

2128
01:49:22,600 --> 01:49:24,479
Speaker 1: were we hoping to achieve? I mean, I've always been

2129
01:49:24,520 --> 01:49:25,960
Speaker 1: led to believe since I grew up in this period

2130
01:49:25,960 --> 01:49:27,800
Speaker 1: of time again, I was born in sixty five, we

2131
01:49:27,920 --> 01:49:30,920
Speaker 1: were going to stop the red wave of communism wherever

2132
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:33,599
Speaker 1: it existed across the globe. Is that really the sole basis?

2133
01:49:36,400 --> 01:49:36,839
Speaker 9: Essentially?

2134
01:49:37,000 --> 01:49:40,760
Speaker 13: Yes, it's focused particularly on Asia. And there was the

2135
01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,800
Speaker 13: idea of the dominant theory that if you allowed South

2136
01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:47,320
Speaker 13: Vietnam to fall, that all these other countries around it

2137
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:51,880
Speaker 13: would fall, and that would then later get ridiculed by

2138
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:59,800
Speaker 13: the left, including places like Harvard and so. But I've

2139
01:49:59,840 --> 01:50:03,600
Speaker 13: gone back and looked and said, well, why, what's the

2140
01:50:03,680 --> 01:50:06,040
Speaker 13: basis for dismissing this, And they said, well, in nineteen

2141
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:09,240
Speaker 13: seventy five South eat on fall of the dominoes didn't

2142
01:50:09,280 --> 01:50:13,479
Speaker 13: all fall, And there's a logical flaw there because we

2143
01:50:13,640 --> 01:50:16,160
Speaker 13: go in in nineteen sixty five, it's a very different environment.

2144
01:50:16,240 --> 01:50:20,280
Speaker 13: And so I look at how the American intervention actually

2145
01:50:21,040 --> 01:50:24,799
Speaker 13: changed the dynamics in Asia and allowed those Domino countries

2146
01:50:24,880 --> 01:50:29,920
Speaker 13: to survive. And it is particularly important because a lot

2147
01:50:29,960 --> 01:50:32,280
Speaker 13: of those countries that we saved by going into Vietnam

2148
01:50:32,400 --> 01:50:35,960
Speaker 13: are now our key allies in creating our main adversary

2149
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:36,400
Speaker 13: in China.

2150
01:50:36,880 --> 01:50:39,000
Speaker 1: I know, that's kind of one of the points I

2151
01:50:39,040 --> 01:50:41,080
Speaker 1: wanted to get to. It didn't work out so badly,

2152
01:50:41,200 --> 01:50:44,000
Speaker 1: this whole Domino effect of falling. And it turns out

2153
01:50:44,080 --> 01:50:47,720
Speaker 1: that you know, their manufacturers, their trading partners, and we

2154
01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:51,519
Speaker 1: have a reasonable relationship with them. But there's always this

2155
01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:54,720
Speaker 1: question of could we have won the war. I've been

2156
01:50:54,800 --> 01:50:56,760
Speaker 1: told repeatedly much in the same way this was an

2157
01:50:56,800 --> 01:50:59,600
Speaker 1: exercise of utility throughout my life, repeatedly that it was

2158
01:50:59,640 --> 01:51:03,120
Speaker 1: the invention of politicians in Washington, d c. Not generals

2159
01:51:03,160 --> 01:51:05,760
Speaker 1: who understand the layout of land, the battlefield, what the

2160
01:51:05,880 --> 01:51:08,479
Speaker 1: needs were. It was you know, folks like Lyndon Johnson

2161
01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:11,519
Speaker 1: and others sort of hamstringing the generals and getting the

2162
01:51:11,600 --> 01:51:14,320
Speaker 1: job done right. Is that what you have concluded as well,

2163
01:51:14,400 --> 01:51:16,800
Speaker 1: in your research on Vietnam War.

2164
01:51:18,320 --> 01:51:22,880
Speaker 13: Yes, and it's Lynda Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert

2165
01:51:22,960 --> 01:51:27,040
Speaker 13: McNamara are the two big players in all of this.

2166
01:51:27,240 --> 01:51:32,320
Speaker 13: And the generals are within South Vietnam. There they're allowed

2167
01:51:32,320 --> 01:51:34,439
Speaker 13: to mostly do what they want. But the problem is

2168
01:51:34,520 --> 01:51:38,280
Speaker 13: that the war is coming from North Vietnam and if

2169
01:51:38,360 --> 01:51:40,639
Speaker 13: you just played defense the whole time, you're never going

2170
01:51:40,760 --> 01:51:43,719
Speaker 13: to put an end to the problem. And the generals

2171
01:51:43,720 --> 01:51:46,639
Speaker 13: recognized early on, so they called for this intensive bombing

2172
01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:49,320
Speaker 13: of the North. But Johnson and McNamara pushed for this

2173
01:51:49,560 --> 01:51:54,040
Speaker 13: idea of gradual escalation based on some sort of fraudulent

2174
01:51:54,080 --> 01:51:57,639
Speaker 13: academic series and which turned out to be a disaster

2175
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:01,599
Speaker 13: because it just encourage the enemy to escalate and gave

2176
01:52:01,640 --> 01:52:03,479
Speaker 13: them time to build up. And then the other big

2177
01:52:03,600 --> 01:52:07,680
Speaker 13: thing that the mcnamaron Johnson shot down was the proposals

2178
01:52:07,720 --> 01:52:10,000
Speaker 13: to go into Laos to cut the Hochi Min trail

2179
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:12,240
Speaker 13: where the North Vietamese logistics were coming.

2180
01:52:13,320 --> 01:52:15,720
Speaker 1: I have a good friend of mine who actually was

2181
01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:19,920
Speaker 1: in Laoos doing the CIA type work when he wasn't

2182
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:22,200
Speaker 1: supposed to be there. He's got some interesting stories about that.

2183
01:52:22,479 --> 01:52:24,439
Speaker 1: What was the big deal on that? I mean, I

2184
01:52:24,520 --> 01:52:26,719
Speaker 1: look at US. We go and we throw rockets in Syria,

2185
01:52:26,880 --> 01:52:29,040
Speaker 1: we launched missile strikes against countries with whom we have

2186
01:52:29,160 --> 01:52:32,160
Speaker 1: no conflict because we're looking for one bad guy. I mean,

2187
01:52:32,400 --> 01:52:35,680
Speaker 1: what was the whole concern over actually saying out loud, Yeah,

2188
01:52:35,720 --> 01:52:37,439
Speaker 1: we're gonna bomb the ho Chi Mintrail. We're going into

2189
01:52:37,479 --> 01:52:39,439
Speaker 1: doing this because if we don't stop the flow of

2190
01:52:41,160 --> 01:52:44,760
Speaker 1: soldiers and military armaments for the North of Vietnamese, we're

2191
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:45,439
Speaker 1: never going to end this.

2192
01:52:47,520 --> 01:52:51,200
Speaker 13: Yeah, there's this huge fight between the Defense Department and

2193
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 13: State Department and the Ambassador William Sullivan is the ambassador

2194
01:52:56,240 --> 01:52:58,280
Speaker 13: US in massador in Laos to later go on and

2195
01:52:58,479 --> 01:53:03,000
Speaker 13: help wreck the Iranian regime in nineteen seventy nine. But

2196
01:53:03,120 --> 01:53:07,200
Speaker 13: he's claiming that, oh well, we can't violate the neutrality

2197
01:53:07,240 --> 01:53:09,760
Speaker 13: of Laos, even though the enemy's doing that. And then

2198
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:12,960
Speaker 13: he comes up with some fantastic schemes to try to

2199
01:53:13,040 --> 01:53:17,599
Speaker 13: prevent this, in which they try to create artificial rain

2200
01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:20,439
Speaker 13: and mud so that they can gum up the supply

2201
01:53:20,640 --> 01:53:23,280
Speaker 13: lines of the North Emis with. This never actually works,

2202
01:53:23,360 --> 01:53:27,040
Speaker 13: and so you know there's bombing as well. But the

2203
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:30,599
Speaker 13: North Vietnames are able to find ways around the bombing,

2204
01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:34,840
Speaker 13: and you know they've themselves have come out later and said, well, yeah,

2205
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:36,840
Speaker 13: the one thing we really feared was that you would

2206
01:53:36,880 --> 01:53:40,240
Speaker 13: put ground troops there because you can't just sneak around,

2207
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:42,400
Speaker 13: you know, two divisions of American troops.

2208
01:53:43,080 --> 01:53:46,559
Speaker 1: Well, is there something the farious that you've uncovered, Mark

2209
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:49,559
Speaker 1: Moyer in doing all this research on Vietnam, even more

2210
01:53:49,600 --> 01:53:52,559
Speaker 1: fundamentally for Triumph regained the book we're talking about, there

2211
01:53:52,640 --> 01:53:56,320
Speaker 1: something nefarious about their unwillingness to fully commit because it

2212
01:53:56,479 --> 01:53:59,120
Speaker 1: just sounds like a total half ass approach. And that's

2213
01:53:59,120 --> 01:54:02,840
Speaker 1: been my perception and of the Hindsight's twenty twenty review

2214
01:54:02,880 --> 01:54:05,479
Speaker 1: of the Vietnam War, all these impediments as to what

2215
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:07,880
Speaker 1: would be effective. Was there really was? Was it just

2216
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:10,360
Speaker 1: pure diplomacy or is there something more behind the scenes

2217
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:13,080
Speaker 1: that some people want to get I have no Vietnam

2218
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:15,839
Speaker 1: North Vietnam successful. I mean, I'm just kind of wondering

2219
01:54:15,880 --> 01:54:18,360
Speaker 1: because it sounds like one mistake after another.

2220
01:54:19,960 --> 01:54:23,000
Speaker 13: Well, I think it was more a case of there's

2221
01:54:23,000 --> 01:54:27,000
Speaker 13: a lot of wishful thinking that goes on and misplaced fears.

2222
01:54:27,080 --> 01:54:29,920
Speaker 13: So Johnson and McNamara have this fear that if they

2223
01:54:30,000 --> 01:54:33,640
Speaker 13: step things up that Sylvie Union and China will intervene,

2224
01:54:34,480 --> 01:54:37,920
Speaker 13: and even the intelligence community saying that's not true. And

2225
01:54:38,000 --> 01:54:41,160
Speaker 13: now we again know that from post war revelations that

2226
01:54:41,280 --> 01:54:44,000
Speaker 13: Chinese and Suvie's did not plan to intervene. They didn't

2227
01:54:44,240 --> 01:54:47,080
Speaker 13: want to fight against the Americans in Vietnam. So that

2228
01:54:47,280 --> 01:54:51,080
Speaker 13: was a huge mistake. And then you also have in

2229
01:54:51,280 --> 01:54:55,320
Speaker 13: terms of one of Johnson's biggest mistakes, as he sort

2230
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:57,240
Speaker 13: of admits towards the end of the war, is that

2231
01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:01,280
Speaker 13: he did not try to get public opinion behind the

2232
01:55:01,400 --> 01:55:06,240
Speaker 13: war because he was a concern that it would disrupt

2233
01:55:06,360 --> 01:55:10,200
Speaker 13: his great society domestic programs, which you know, as you

2234
01:55:10,280 --> 01:55:13,879
Speaker 13: mayor Paul, he expected that he was going to eliminate

2235
01:55:13,960 --> 01:55:16,520
Speaker 13: poverty from the entire United States in a few years,

2236
01:55:16,560 --> 01:55:19,680
Speaker 13: which of course didn't happen, but that was part of

2237
01:55:19,720 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 13: his thinking.

2238
01:55:21,920 --> 01:55:25,920
Speaker 1: Wow, well, that's that's the shame that you have the

2239
01:55:26,280 --> 01:55:30,000
Speaker 1: loss of life and a raging war that has impacted

2240
01:55:30,080 --> 01:55:33,360
Speaker 1: because he wants some social welfare program here, I mean

2241
01:55:33,440 --> 01:55:35,480
Speaker 1: take out social welfare program, put anything else. They came

2242
01:55:35,520 --> 01:55:38,280
Speaker 1: to be seen to be completely independent issues deserving of

2243
01:55:38,440 --> 01:55:43,520
Speaker 1: equal amounts of detention. This can we learn anything given

2244
01:55:43,560 --> 01:55:46,080
Speaker 1: that we're engaged in a proxy war right now with Russia.

2245
01:55:46,160 --> 01:55:48,200
Speaker 1: This is kind of the flip side in Ukraine. We're

2246
01:55:48,520 --> 01:55:52,880
Speaker 1: providing the Ukrainians with weapons and supplies and training, and

2247
01:55:53,360 --> 01:55:57,120
Speaker 1: insofar as North North Vietnam's concern, I mean, my understanding is,

2248
01:55:57,160 --> 01:55:58,960
Speaker 1: and please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm operating

2249
01:55:59,000 --> 01:56:01,920
Speaker 1: under the assumption that China and or the Soviet Union

2250
01:56:02,400 --> 01:56:05,360
Speaker 1: we're providing weapons and supplies and resources for the North

2251
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:08,360
Speaker 1: Vietnamese and the NVA. So they were waging a bit

2252
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:10,720
Speaker 1: of a proxy war, weren't they right.

2253
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:14,960
Speaker 13: That's right, they were providing lots and lots of material

2254
01:56:15,280 --> 01:56:17,320
Speaker 13: were Vietnam would not have been able to do much

2255
01:56:17,400 --> 01:56:21,720
Speaker 13: without the aid of those of those two partners, which

2256
01:56:22,240 --> 01:56:24,240
Speaker 13: something else does matters to be and we did not

2257
01:56:24,440 --> 01:56:28,600
Speaker 13: fully comprehend, but you know, in terms of what we

2258
01:56:28,680 --> 01:56:33,160
Speaker 13: can learn that might be relevant to Ukraine, and we

2259
01:56:33,240 --> 01:56:36,879
Speaker 13: don't know exactly what's going on internally within the government,

2260
01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:43,240
Speaker 13: but in general, the military leadership usually has a better

2261
01:56:43,360 --> 01:56:47,360
Speaker 13: grasp on a lot of these realities than the political leadership,

2262
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:49,480
Speaker 13: especially you know, one of our big problems is that

2263
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:53,800
Speaker 13: we don't have political leaders oftentimes who know anything about

2264
01:56:54,120 --> 01:56:58,040
Speaker 13: the military. Now there's exceptions like an Eisenhower who was

2265
01:56:58,960 --> 01:57:02,800
Speaker 13: Supreme Commander, but people like Joe Biden and you know,

2266
01:57:02,920 --> 01:57:06,800
Speaker 13: Barack Obama don't have much of a clue and.

2267
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:10,000
Speaker 4: So they either know.

2268
01:57:10,240 --> 01:57:13,760
Speaker 13: Now, military is obviously not perfect, and you know, we've

2269
01:57:13,800 --> 01:57:17,560
Speaker 13: got some problems, you know, new problems with the rise

2270
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:21,280
Speaker 13: of wokeness in the military, but there needs to be

2271
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:24,760
Speaker 13: in general, you know, the civilians need to be paying

2272
01:57:24,880 --> 01:57:27,240
Speaker 13: close attention to what the military has to say and

2273
01:57:27,320 --> 01:57:30,240
Speaker 13: not not looking down on them as they don't want

2274
01:57:30,360 --> 01:57:30,520
Speaker 13: to do.

2275
01:57:31,280 --> 01:57:33,520
Speaker 1: I agree with that. I agree with that assumption or

2276
01:57:33,560 --> 01:57:37,960
Speaker 1: that that conclusion. Public opinion here in the United States

2277
01:57:38,040 --> 01:57:40,920
Speaker 1: and the Vietnam War gradually changed over time. You know,

2278
01:57:40,960 --> 01:57:43,360
Speaker 1: you start with the year of the book, nineteen sixty

2279
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:46,760
Speaker 1: five to nineteen sixty eight. I mean, the anti war

2280
01:57:46,880 --> 01:57:49,880
Speaker 1: protests were full on by nineteen sixty eight, were they not.

2281
01:57:51,680 --> 01:57:53,920
Speaker 13: Yeah, they really got going in nineteen sixty.

2282
01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:56,440
Speaker 1: Seven with Summer of Love draft rules.

2283
01:57:57,200 --> 01:58:01,760
Speaker 13: Yes, the you know, interestingly, college campuses were pretty supportive

2284
01:58:02,040 --> 01:58:04,400
Speaker 13: of the war until the middle of sixty seven when

2285
01:58:04,440 --> 01:58:07,600
Speaker 13: the draft rules change and they get rid of draft

2286
01:58:07,720 --> 01:58:09,680
Speaker 13: exemptions for graduate school, and all of a sudden, you

2287
01:58:09,760 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 13: see this surge. It's certainly not everywhere. It's mainly on

2288
01:58:14,320 --> 01:58:17,760
Speaker 13: elite campuses in northeast northwest of the country.

2289
01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:24,760
Speaker 1: Mario Savio out in Berkeley, Yes, and so, but you know,

2290
01:58:25,120 --> 01:58:25,760
Speaker 1: it's a bit.

2291
01:58:25,760 --> 01:58:28,080
Speaker 13: Like today where you see people saying, well, there's all

2292
01:58:28,160 --> 01:58:31,520
Speaker 13: this you know, chatter on Twitter about an issue and

2293
01:58:31,760 --> 01:58:34,520
Speaker 13: show that people ring this way. Well, it's actually just

2294
01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:37,440
Speaker 13: a pretty small minority who is very loud and vocal.

2295
01:58:37,520 --> 01:58:38,280
Speaker 9: So that's what you have.

2296
01:58:38,480 --> 01:58:41,480
Speaker 13: And so public opinion polls in nineteen sixty eighth showed

2297
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:44,840
Speaker 13: the country as a whole is actually pretty still pretty

2298
01:58:44,880 --> 01:58:48,120
Speaker 13: solidly behind the war, and they recognize what's at stake

2299
01:58:48,320 --> 01:58:51,360
Speaker 13: and and that you don't just go into a war

2300
01:58:51,480 --> 01:58:53,720
Speaker 13: with half a million Americans and then just pull right out.

2301
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:59,600
Speaker 13: And but this, you know, this small anti war minority,

2302
01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:01,600
Speaker 13: and then they go on, of course to positions in

2303
01:59:02,120 --> 01:59:05,280
Speaker 13: academia and the media and then try to make it

2304
01:59:05,360 --> 01:59:07,960
Speaker 13: seem like, oh, everybody agreed with them, but they were,

2305
01:59:08,440 --> 01:59:11,120
Speaker 13: you know, pretty small and unpopular minority at the time.

2306
01:59:12,200 --> 01:59:15,120
Speaker 1: Did this the public opinion relative to the Vietnam War?

2307
01:59:15,160 --> 01:59:18,160
Speaker 1: Did that impact Johnson's decision? I do choose not to run.

2308
01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean, was that impactful in his decision.

2309
01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:26,160
Speaker 13: It had, it did have some effect, and he was

2310
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:29,600
Speaker 13: a little bit vague about why he chose not to run.

2311
01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:33,280
Speaker 13: But that episode in March of sixty eight is also

2312
01:59:33,400 --> 01:59:37,040
Speaker 13: a bit misconstrued. Sometimes people think, well, this was when

2313
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:40,640
Speaker 13: us decided to get out of Vietnam. But Johnson actually

2314
01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:44,120
Speaker 13: does not get rid of or does not remove American

2315
01:59:44,240 --> 01:59:47,400
Speaker 13: troops at all during the rest of his term. In fact,

2316
01:59:47,520 --> 01:59:49,400
Speaker 13: one of the good things he does is he finally

2317
01:59:49,440 --> 01:59:52,480
Speaker 13: gets sick of Robert McNamara and realizes he's been selling

2318
01:59:52,520 --> 01:59:56,480
Speaker 13: them a lot of snake oil, and so replaces McNamara

2319
01:59:56,880 --> 02:00:01,640
Speaker 13: and actually takes a tougher position during the last months

2320
02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:02,640
Speaker 13: of his administration.

2321
02:00:03,680 --> 02:00:06,040
Speaker 1: We'll tell you what. Considering again going back to Ukraine

2322
02:00:06,080 --> 02:00:10,080
Speaker 1: as an illustration of certain parallels, what lessons do we

2323
02:00:10,160 --> 02:00:12,840
Speaker 1: learn from the Vietnam War that should inform the folks

2324
02:00:12,880 --> 02:00:16,960
Speaker 1: that are making the decisions in Ukraine and other military exercises.

2325
02:00:20,040 --> 02:00:22,640
Speaker 13: Another thing that I think is relevant, though it's a

2326
02:00:22,720 --> 02:00:26,480
Speaker 13: bit late now for Ukraine. But one of the problems,

2327
02:00:26,560 --> 02:00:28,840
Speaker 13: one of the big mistakes Linda Johnson made was he

2328
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:33,160
Speaker 13: did not convey American resolve at the beginning. In facted

2329
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:37,200
Speaker 13: the opposite when he is reaction to the Tonkin Gulf,

2330
02:00:37,240 --> 02:00:39,440
Speaker 13: and since the nineteen sixty four and then he made

2331
02:00:39,520 --> 02:00:43,520
Speaker 13: some very famous statements in the presidential campaign, but I'm

2332
02:00:44,200 --> 02:00:46,880
Speaker 13: not going to send American boys to Vietnam, and this

2333
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:51,320
Speaker 13: of course encourages the North Vietnamese to invade in force

2334
02:00:51,400 --> 02:00:54,480
Speaker 13: in the beginning of nineteen sixty five. And we've seen

2335
02:00:54,720 --> 02:00:58,600
Speaker 13: some of the same things with this administration early on

2336
02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:04,200
Speaker 13: in Ukraine and setting mixed messages about what America is

2337
02:01:04,240 --> 02:01:09,560
Speaker 13: going to do. And so the United States has a

2338
02:01:09,600 --> 02:01:14,840
Speaker 13: pretty long history in fact of conveying the wrong impression

2339
02:01:14,880 --> 02:01:17,360
Speaker 13: about American resolve and encouraging our enemy.

2340
02:01:17,480 --> 02:01:18,520
Speaker 4: So the.

2341
02:01:20,000 --> 02:01:23,160
Speaker 13: US going forward needs to be very assertive and not

2342
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:26,680
Speaker 13: mince words and make clear that it's not to be

2343
02:01:26,960 --> 02:01:30,120
Speaker 13: trifled with, because we oftentimes when we try to act

2344
02:01:30,200 --> 02:01:32,240
Speaker 13: like we don't want war, that's the time where most

2345
02:01:32,320 --> 02:01:34,880
Speaker 13: likely to actually get into a war, isn't that true?

2346
02:01:35,720 --> 02:01:38,760
Speaker 1: Wow, And have your game plan laid out, like what

2347
02:01:38,920 --> 02:01:41,760
Speaker 1: your goals are in achieving any given objective laid out

2348
02:01:41,800 --> 02:01:44,000
Speaker 1: and understood in advance, so we all have a clear

2349
02:01:44,120 --> 02:01:46,800
Speaker 1: understanding of the objective, which is quite often not the

2350
02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:51,240
Speaker 1: case Afghanistan Mark Moyer. It's a fantastic discussion, and I

2351
02:01:51,240 --> 02:01:54,880
Speaker 1: will let my listeners know this is a comprehensive book

2352
02:01:55,440 --> 02:01:57,960
Speaker 1: in terms of the years covered sixty five to sixty eight.

2353
02:01:59,040 --> 02:02:00,919
Speaker 1: I think you have like one hundred pages of footnotes

2354
02:02:00,960 --> 02:02:03,480
Speaker 1: of being a lawyer. That's really important because you can

2355
02:02:03,520 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 1: go to the source information and know exactly where you

2356
02:02:05,840 --> 02:02:08,000
Speaker 1: got the information that summed up in the book Triumph

2357
02:02:08,080 --> 02:02:10,800
Speaker 1: Regained and Real Quick for you part company, Mark your

2358
02:02:10,920 --> 02:02:13,720
Speaker 1: first book that you alluded to earlier, the Trump Trump

2359
02:02:13,720 --> 02:02:15,160
Speaker 1: for a Sake in the Vietnam War fifty four to

2360
02:02:15,240 --> 02:02:17,280
Speaker 1: sixty five. I understand you got a little bit of

2361
02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:20,880
Speaker 1: academic lip on that one. What was real quick? What

2362
02:02:21,000 --> 02:02:24,320
Speaker 1: was the story on that a stir was created in academia?

2363
02:02:26,480 --> 02:02:30,600
Speaker 13: Yes, well, the people who were protesting against the war

2364
02:02:30,680 --> 02:02:33,400
Speaker 13: in the sixties, a lot of them became professors. And

2365
02:02:33,520 --> 02:02:37,720
Speaker 13: if you look at American history departments, there's very few

2366
02:02:37,840 --> 02:02:42,000
Speaker 13: Vietnam veterans and a huge number of Vietnam War protesters.

2367
02:02:42,080 --> 02:02:45,240
Speaker 13: And so you know, when you're kind of fundamentally questioning

2368
02:02:45,400 --> 02:02:49,000
Speaker 13: their one of their defining moments and saying, well, you know,

2369
02:02:49,120 --> 02:02:52,200
Speaker 13: you were actually mistaken about all of this, they don't

2370
02:02:52,280 --> 02:02:55,720
Speaker 13: take kindly to it. So yeah, I was not welcome

2371
02:02:55,760 --> 02:02:57,920
Speaker 13: in a lot of college campus.

2372
02:02:58,240 --> 02:03:01,280
Speaker 1: From Hillsdale College. Mark Moyer get a copy of the

2373
02:03:01,280 --> 02:03:03,160
Speaker 1: book on my blog page fifty five cars dot Com.

2374
02:03:03,240 --> 02:03:06,320
Speaker 1: Triumphrey Gain Vietnam from nineteen sixty five to nineteen sixty eight.

2375
02:03:06,560 --> 02:03:08,880
Speaker 1: Thanks for what you're doing. Market's fascinating stuff. And I

2376
02:03:08,960 --> 02:03:10,880
Speaker 1: really enjoyed the conversation today, and I know my listener

2377
02:03:10,960 --> 02:03:12,840
Speaker 1: is going to thoroughly enjoy the book. I've been looking

2378
02:03:12,840 --> 02:03:16,400
Speaker 1: forward to this conversation all morning. I saw Richard Hurwitz

2379
02:03:16,680 --> 02:03:18,640
Speaker 1: was going to be on the program at this time,

2380
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:21,600
Speaker 1: and he is. Richard is I'll just give you a

2381
02:03:21,640 --> 02:03:24,280
Speaker 1: little background on He's writer and entrepreneur, founder and publisher

2382
02:03:24,360 --> 02:03:28,400
Speaker 1: of The Octavian Report. Writings appeared in multiple sources including

2383
02:03:28,400 --> 02:03:31,240
Speaker 1: The New York Times, Financial Times, My Favorite, The Wall

2384
02:03:31,280 --> 02:03:34,839
Speaker 1: Street Journal, Times, The Love in Los Angeles Times, History Today,

2385
02:03:35,000 --> 02:03:38,520
Speaker 1: and The Jerusalem Post Graduate Yale University where he studied history,

2386
02:03:38,600 --> 02:03:42,520
Speaker 1: Columbia Law School. And he has written a wonderful book

2387
02:03:42,560 --> 02:03:45,440
Speaker 1: called Excuse Me in the Garden of the Righteous. The

2388
02:03:45,560 --> 02:03:47,880
Speaker 1: heroes who risk their lives to save Jews during the

2389
02:03:47,920 --> 02:03:51,400
Speaker 1: Holigas Holocaust Richard, Welcome to the fifty five KRSE Morning Shows.

2390
02:03:51,440 --> 02:03:52,400
Speaker 1: A real pleasure to have you on.

2391
02:03:53,600 --> 02:03:55,520
Speaker 9: It's pleasure to be on. Thank you for having me.

2392
02:03:56,880 --> 02:03:59,440
Speaker 1: I was staring at the statistics on this and every

2393
02:03:59,560 --> 02:04:01,400
Speaker 1: I think there's not a human being alive, at least

2394
02:04:01,440 --> 02:04:03,680
Speaker 1: I hope so that doesn't know who Oscar Schindler was

2395
02:04:03,760 --> 02:04:06,280
Speaker 1: because of the of course the very famous movie Schindler's

2396
02:04:06,320 --> 02:04:10,760
Speaker 1: List helped the Jews escape Nazi persecution. Apparently he was

2397
02:04:11,720 --> 02:04:13,960
Speaker 1: very much not alone in this, And in your book

2398
02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:17,800
Speaker 1: in the Garden of Righteous, you've identified a smaller subset

2399
02:04:17,840 --> 02:04:19,640
Speaker 1: of that larger group who helped the Jews to tell

2400
02:04:19,680 --> 02:04:23,160
Speaker 1: the amazing story about this. How did you go about

2401
02:04:23,480 --> 02:04:26,920
Speaker 1: whittling away all of the stories of the twenty seven

2402
02:04:27,000 --> 02:04:29,840
Speaker 1: thousand folks who did risk their lives and arrive at

2403
02:04:29,920 --> 02:04:33,600
Speaker 1: the ten that you focus on in the book, Richard, Yeah,

2404
02:04:33,640 --> 02:04:34,400
Speaker 1: it's a really good question.

2405
02:04:34,440 --> 02:04:36,520
Speaker 15: I mean, it's interesting that you know there were a lot.

2406
02:04:36,760 --> 02:04:40,520
Speaker 15: It's twenty seven thousand people out of five hundred million, So.

2407
02:04:41,120 --> 02:04:44,160
Speaker 1: Okay, Phil, it was a pretty rare occurrence, fair enough.

2408
02:04:45,280 --> 02:04:48,880
Speaker 15: Yeah, But I tried to try to select and I

2409
02:04:48,960 --> 02:04:51,320
Speaker 15: talked in the introductions a little bit about us some

2410
02:04:51,440 --> 02:04:54,320
Speaker 15: other stories of people that everyone from kind of Herbert

2411
02:04:54,400 --> 02:04:56,800
Speaker 15: Hubert to Frank Sinatra that actually was pretty pretty.

2412
02:04:56,600 --> 02:04:57,480
Speaker 9: Heroic in their own way.

2413
02:04:57,560 --> 02:05:00,480
Speaker 15: But I tried to pick story that we're kind of

2414
02:05:00,520 --> 02:05:03,920
Speaker 15: a cross section of why people did this. Places people

2415
02:05:04,000 --> 02:05:07,720
Speaker 15: did this, countries people did it. So you have everybody

2416
02:05:07,760 --> 02:05:11,280
Speaker 15: from the ring master of a circus in Germany to

2417
02:05:11,520 --> 02:05:16,160
Speaker 15: a Italian Tour de France winner to Prince Harry's great

2418
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:19,520
Speaker 15: grandmother who was a princess and save the family of

2419
02:05:19,600 --> 02:05:22,080
Speaker 15: Jews in Greece. So part of it was to try

2420
02:05:22,120 --> 02:05:24,480
Speaker 15: to kind of give up a broad sex sub section.

2421
02:05:24,560 --> 02:05:26,160
Speaker 15: Of part of it is because these are just really

2422
02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:27,760
Speaker 15: interesting stories that to.

2423
02:05:27,840 --> 02:05:30,320
Speaker 1: Me, at least before we dive into some of the illustrations,

2424
02:05:30,800 --> 02:05:34,680
Speaker 1: from where did you get all of this information to

2425
02:05:34,760 --> 02:05:36,840
Speaker 1: be able to tell a detailed story about any one

2426
02:05:36,920 --> 02:05:37,880
Speaker 1: of these individuals.

2427
02:05:39,320 --> 02:05:41,800
Speaker 9: Yeah, So it was a lot of archival research.

2428
02:05:42,840 --> 02:05:46,120
Speaker 15: I went into archives all over the world in over

2429
02:05:46,160 --> 02:05:52,320
Speaker 15: a dozen languages. There's some very good testimony in Yad Vashem,

2430
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:56,760
Speaker 15: the Memorial Museum in Jerusalem, there's online testimony, and then

2431
02:05:56,800 --> 02:05:59,360
Speaker 15: I was actually able to interview quite a number of

2432
02:05:59,400 --> 02:06:03,640
Speaker 15: people who were either rescued as children, because at this

2433
02:06:03,720 --> 02:06:06,640
Speaker 15: point that's who's left. And also I interviewed quite a

2434
02:06:06,680 --> 02:06:09,400
Speaker 15: number of the children of rescuers, which was interesting because

2435
02:06:10,000 --> 02:06:11,880
Speaker 15: they were while they were all very heroic, they weren't

2436
02:06:11,880 --> 02:06:14,760
Speaker 15: all saints and they were real regular people like everyone,

2437
02:06:14,800 --> 02:06:18,440
Speaker 15: who had flaws and as well as good points.

2438
02:06:19,080 --> 02:06:19,280
Speaker 10: Well.

2439
02:06:19,640 --> 02:06:22,400
Speaker 1: One of the stories, and I saw your piece in

2440
02:06:22,480 --> 02:06:26,400
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal from January nineteenth in advance of

2441
02:06:26,520 --> 02:06:31,440
Speaker 1: the International Holocaust Rememberance Day, the story of Lucas Karan.

2442
02:06:31,560 --> 02:06:33,440
Speaker 1: I think you alluded to it earlier about the Greek

2443
02:06:33,520 --> 02:06:38,760
Speaker 1: island is it was it Zachenthos. Yes, give my listeners

2444
02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:42,320
Speaker 1: just a little taste of Lucas Karen's bravery.

2445
02:06:43,520 --> 02:06:43,760
Speaker 4: Sure.

2446
02:06:43,920 --> 02:06:47,280
Speaker 15: Yeah, So the Greeks, the Jews in Greece actually had

2447
02:06:47,320 --> 02:06:50,680
Speaker 15: the worst survival rate in Europe. It was almost ninety

2448
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:52,800
Speaker 15: five percent of them were wiped out, but most of

2449
02:06:52,840 --> 02:06:55,720
Speaker 15: those were in the north and in the south around

2450
02:06:55,760 --> 02:06:58,920
Speaker 15: Athens and in the islands. It was quite different. And

2451
02:06:59,000 --> 02:07:02,880
Speaker 15: so Zasninitos is is a small, very beautiful island in

2452
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:06,040
Speaker 15: the Ionian Sea. When the Venetians controlled that, they called

2453
02:07:06,080 --> 02:07:09,000
Speaker 15: it the Jewel of the Levant because it's so beautiful,

2454
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:10,840
Speaker 15: and there were only two hundred Jews who lived there,

2455
02:07:11,000 --> 02:07:15,520
Speaker 15: and yet the Nazis, you know, pathologically would would would

2456
02:07:15,600 --> 02:07:17,680
Speaker 15: go to Eddie where they thought they were Jews. So

2457
02:07:17,720 --> 02:07:21,640
Speaker 15: they actually showed up and they asked Lucas Carr, who

2458
02:07:21,760 --> 02:07:24,360
Speaker 15: was the local mayor, for a list of Jews so

2459
02:07:24,480 --> 02:07:28,560
Speaker 15: that they could support them, and he he uh, and

2460
02:07:28,640 --> 02:07:31,080
Speaker 15: they left for it within twenty four hours. He went

2461
02:07:31,160 --> 02:07:32,920
Speaker 15: and confided to a friend of his who was the

2462
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:38,280
Speaker 15: local metropolitan, The priest Chrystoskimos, and the head of the

2463
02:07:38,320 --> 02:07:41,760
Speaker 15: Greek Church de Mosquinos in Athens is the only head

2464
02:07:41,760 --> 02:07:45,480
Speaker 15: of a church in Europe who formerly protested the Holocaust,

2465
02:07:45,520 --> 02:07:48,400
Speaker 15: and he had told all of his priests and other

2466
02:07:48,520 --> 02:07:50,360
Speaker 15: members of the clergy to do whatever they could to

2467
02:07:50,400 --> 02:07:52,120
Speaker 15: help the Jews, and and and so did a lot

2468
02:07:52,160 --> 02:07:54,440
Speaker 15: of the mayors and people in the city, and just

2469
02:07:54,520 --> 02:07:59,040
Speaker 15: people help their neighbors and so so Carr and the

2470
02:07:59,160 --> 02:08:01,560
Speaker 15: metropolitan went back the next day to the to the

2471
02:08:01,680 --> 02:08:04,880
Speaker 15: Nazi and they handed him a piece of paper and

2472
02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:08,000
Speaker 15: they said, here's the list of Jews that you require,

2473
02:08:08,280 --> 02:08:11,440
Speaker 15: and on the list they'd written two names their own.

2474
02:08:12,800 --> 02:08:15,680
Speaker 15: And interestingly, you know, that was a you know, they

2475
02:08:15,720 --> 02:08:18,240
Speaker 15: could have been shot on the spot right would have been,

2476
02:08:19,080 --> 02:08:21,840
Speaker 15: but the Nazi just backed down. And then what happened was,

2477
02:08:21,920 --> 02:08:25,480
Speaker 15: over the next period of time, the entire island sent

2478
02:08:25,600 --> 02:08:27,800
Speaker 15: all their Jews off into the hills and hid them,

2479
02:08:28,600 --> 02:08:34,240
Speaker 15: and they all survived the war. So they've both been honored.

2480
02:08:34,280 --> 02:08:35,280
Speaker 15: But it was pretty remarkable.

2481
02:08:35,280 --> 02:08:39,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, extraordinarily brave, extremely brave, because yet Nazis were

2482
02:08:39,280 --> 02:08:42,000
Speaker 1: known to indiscriminately gun people down for whatever reason they

2483
02:08:42,040 --> 02:08:45,600
Speaker 1: crossed their heads or just a terrible, terrible regime in

2484
02:08:45,720 --> 02:08:47,440
Speaker 1: the Garden of the Righteous the name of the book,

2485
02:08:47,480 --> 02:08:49,200
Speaker 1: the heroes a risk their lives to save Jews during

2486
02:08:49,200 --> 02:08:54,680
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. I guess I'm always just baffled by the

2487
02:08:54,840 --> 02:08:58,680
Speaker 1: idea that the German army, or throwing the s s

2488
02:08:58,760 --> 02:09:00,840
Speaker 1: and anybody else who collaborate with the German army, was

2489
02:09:00,840 --> 02:09:03,760
Speaker 1: sympathetic to the whole idea of exterminating Jews, still a

2490
02:09:03,920 --> 02:09:07,040
Speaker 1: smaller subject of the much larger population. I mean, I

2491
02:09:07,080 --> 02:09:09,840
Speaker 1: think of America's military if it descended on the greater

2492
02:09:09,960 --> 02:09:12,600
Speaker 1: Cincinnati area, how long it would take for them to

2493
02:09:12,680 --> 02:09:14,880
Speaker 1: go door to door and search and search and search

2494
02:09:14,960 --> 02:09:18,320
Speaker 1: to find anybody you're trying to hide. But they were

2495
02:09:18,400 --> 02:09:22,560
Speaker 1: so successful in finding the Jews and exterminating them. Was

2496
02:09:22,640 --> 02:09:24,760
Speaker 1: it really that much the will of the people. You

2497
02:09:24,920 --> 02:09:27,920
Speaker 1: had to have informants within the population that would ferret

2498
02:09:27,960 --> 02:09:29,760
Speaker 1: out those who'd be willing to try to save these

2499
02:09:29,800 --> 02:09:33,320
Speaker 1: folks lives. Is that a big part of the problem

2500
02:09:33,400 --> 02:09:36,560
Speaker 1: that the Jews faced throughout the entire war?

2501
02:09:37,800 --> 02:09:38,000
Speaker 4: Yeah?

2502
02:09:38,040 --> 02:09:41,880
Speaker 15: Absolutely, I mean the hardcore cadre of Nazis could not

2503
02:09:42,000 --> 02:09:45,440
Speaker 15: have done this without a huge amount of people collaborating.

2504
02:09:45,640 --> 02:09:48,600
Speaker 15: And people were talking about the numbers earlier. I mean,

2505
02:09:48,640 --> 02:09:50,920
Speaker 15: the vast majority of people either stood by and did

2506
02:09:51,000 --> 02:09:54,520
Speaker 15: nothing or actively collaborated. There were people who turned their

2507
02:09:54,520 --> 02:09:57,320
Speaker 15: neighbors in for small rewards, there were people who did

2508
02:09:57,360 --> 02:09:57,880
Speaker 15: it just out of.

2509
02:09:57,920 --> 02:09:59,400
Speaker 3: Spite and what.

2510
02:10:00,000 --> 02:10:03,000
Speaker 15: But by contrast, when you had certain places like Zakinthos

2511
02:10:03,120 --> 02:10:05,200
Speaker 15: or Denmark and there are a few, you know, there

2512
02:10:05,240 --> 02:10:07,680
Speaker 15: were a few others, that's where you ended up having

2513
02:10:08,400 --> 02:10:12,040
Speaker 15: having a higher survival rate, and there was a rescuer

2514
02:10:12,120 --> 02:10:15,000
Speaker 15: in Holland, you know where Anne Frank was, who was

2515
02:10:15,120 --> 02:10:17,120
Speaker 15: quoted as saying that people like him, the you know,

2516
02:10:17,200 --> 02:10:19,480
Speaker 15: the extreme rare examples were the tip of the spear.

2517
02:10:19,560 --> 02:10:21,960
Speaker 15: But they could not have done what they did. Was

2518
02:10:21,960 --> 02:10:24,360
Speaker 15: it not for people looking the other way. But unfortunately

2519
02:10:25,240 --> 02:10:27,560
Speaker 15: in most of Europe that wasn't the case. And in fact,

2520
02:10:27,720 --> 02:10:30,760
Speaker 15: in a lot of countries like Poland and Lithuania, the

2521
02:10:30,880 --> 02:10:34,040
Speaker 15: local population did a huge part of the dirty work.

2522
02:10:34,080 --> 02:10:35,960
Speaker 15: I mean they literally were the people who we were

2523
02:10:36,040 --> 02:10:38,400
Speaker 15: shooting the Jews or rounding them up and sent to

2524
02:10:38,480 --> 02:10:41,280
Speaker 15: the to the camps. But it's an important lesson because

2525
02:10:42,000 --> 02:10:44,840
Speaker 15: you know, people without without the vast majority of the

2526
02:10:44,920 --> 02:10:48,400
Speaker 15: population aiding in a betting, that they never could have

2527
02:10:48,480 --> 02:10:51,160
Speaker 15: killed six million Jews and millions.

2528
02:10:50,880 --> 02:10:51,400
Speaker 9: Of other people.

2529
02:10:51,600 --> 02:10:54,120
Speaker 1: Well, that's illustrated, is it not, by King Christian the

2530
02:10:54,200 --> 02:10:58,560
Speaker 1: tenth in Denmark, And they're sort of collective mentality as

2531
02:10:58,600 --> 02:11:00,600
Speaker 1: it related to the treatment of Jews. They, I guess

2532
02:11:00,680 --> 02:11:05,680
Speaker 1: forbade discrimination against the Jews. The the citizenry there was

2533
02:11:05,760 --> 02:11:08,280
Speaker 1: not willing to cooperate with the Jews. So in spite

2534
02:11:08,280 --> 02:11:11,400
Speaker 1: of the fact that the Danes probably couldn't offended off

2535
02:11:11,440 --> 02:11:13,720
Speaker 1: the Nazis or in a military invasion, they weren't willing

2536
02:11:13,720 --> 02:11:15,080
Speaker 1: to cooperate with them and turn them in.

2537
02:11:16,720 --> 02:11:19,000
Speaker 15: Yeah, and what you found that from the beginning that

2538
02:11:19,160 --> 02:11:22,000
Speaker 15: was part of the stipulation. And Denmark was an interesting

2539
02:11:22,040 --> 02:11:26,920
Speaker 15: story because the local the military and the other local

2540
02:11:27,000 --> 02:11:30,480
Speaker 15: occupying forces. I mean, the Danes did not like them.

2541
02:11:30,840 --> 02:11:33,240
Speaker 15: The Fascist party there got less than two percent of

2542
02:11:33,280 --> 02:11:36,480
Speaker 15: the vote. But the Nazis realized, you know, to go

2543
02:11:36,600 --> 02:11:38,480
Speaker 15: round up the Jews would be more trouble than it

2544
02:11:38,560 --> 02:11:41,320
Speaker 15: was worth. It finally went up to Hitler and he

2545
02:11:41,480 --> 02:11:44,160
Speaker 15: personally said, you're going to round up the Jews. And

2546
02:11:44,240 --> 02:11:47,320
Speaker 15: when they went to go do it, the government actually,

2547
02:11:47,440 --> 02:11:50,879
Speaker 15: who were tipped off by a German in the government

2548
02:11:51,120 --> 02:11:53,520
Speaker 15: who was sympathetic to the Jews and a member of

2549
02:11:53,520 --> 02:11:57,640
Speaker 15: the Nazi Party like shinlern Incently, the entire population then

2550
02:11:57,680 --> 02:11:59,680
Speaker 15: did the exact opposite of what we've been talking about.

2551
02:11:59,680 --> 02:12:03,640
Speaker 15: They went door to door. They as almost as one,

2552
02:12:06,000 --> 02:12:08,720
Speaker 15: brought the Jews across the Straits to Sweden. There were

2553
02:12:09,240 --> 02:12:12,000
Speaker 15: everyone from medical students to taxi drivers. I talked about

2554
02:12:12,000 --> 02:12:14,840
Speaker 15: in my book a Rower from the Olympic Rower who

2555
02:12:14,960 --> 02:12:17,360
Speaker 15: brought twelve people. It's what you went back and forth

2556
02:12:17,360 --> 02:12:20,680
Speaker 15: twelve times to Sweden. And as a consequence of ninety

2557
02:12:20,760 --> 02:12:24,960
Speaker 15: nine percent of the seventy two hundred Jews in Denmark survived.

2558
02:12:26,120 --> 02:12:28,680
Speaker 15: So they were for a while able to actually hold

2559
02:12:28,720 --> 02:12:32,160
Speaker 15: the Nazis off. But when when the you know, the

2560
02:12:32,600 --> 02:12:35,200
Speaker 15: when Hitler himself ordered the round up. The Danes were

2561
02:12:36,360 --> 02:12:37,480
Speaker 15: almost unique.

2562
02:12:37,200 --> 02:12:37,640
Speaker 10: In doing this.

2563
02:12:38,120 --> 02:12:40,640
Speaker 15: They actually the entire country and when people came back,

2564
02:12:40,800 --> 02:12:43,520
Speaker 15: the story is told that their plants had been watered,

2565
02:12:43,560 --> 02:12:45,920
Speaker 15: their dogs had been fed, their homes had been cared for,

2566
02:12:46,720 --> 02:12:49,720
Speaker 15: and because there had been no history of religious discrimination

2567
02:12:50,360 --> 02:12:52,320
Speaker 15: in Denmark, the Jews had been there for a long

2568
02:12:52,400 --> 02:12:56,400
Speaker 15: time and they were viewed as Danes first and jew second,

2569
02:12:56,440 --> 02:12:58,320
Speaker 15: and they were the people's friends and neighbors, and they

2570
02:12:58,400 --> 02:13:01,440
Speaker 15: fought for Denmark and the Danes, as you point out,

2571
02:13:01,440 --> 02:13:05,080
Speaker 15: from the king down from the first day the Nazis arrived,

2572
02:13:05,160 --> 02:13:07,360
Speaker 15: and one of the stipulations if you don't want trouble

2573
02:13:07,400 --> 02:13:08,680
Speaker 15: is you're not going to touch our Jews.

2574
02:13:09,200 --> 02:13:11,840
Speaker 1: That is, there's so many lessons that we learned just

2575
02:13:11,880 --> 02:13:14,200
Speaker 1: from that one story, but it's just one of many

2576
02:13:14,280 --> 02:13:16,320
Speaker 1: in the book in the Garden of the Righteous, the

2577
02:13:16,400 --> 02:13:18,320
Speaker 1: heroes who risk their lives to say the Jews during

2578
02:13:18,640 --> 02:13:22,200
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. By my guest today, Richard Hurrowitz, with fantastic

2579
02:13:22,320 --> 02:13:25,040
Speaker 1: Richard talking with you. I really appreciate you putting this

2580
02:13:25,200 --> 02:13:28,640
Speaker 1: down and explaining a little bit higher dose to reality,

2581
02:13:28,680 --> 02:13:31,920
Speaker 1: but also showing the humanity that can exist in spite

2582
02:13:32,320 --> 02:13:35,360
Speaker 1: of the challenges their books on my blog page at

2583
02:13:35,400 --> 02:13:37,760
Speaker 1: fifty five cars dot com. People will click on it easily.

2584
02:13:37,840 --> 02:13:39,200
Speaker 1: They can get a copy of it, and I'll just

2585
02:13:39,280 --> 02:13:41,320
Speaker 1: recommend that they share it with friends once they've read

2586
02:13:41,320 --> 02:13:43,880
Speaker 1: it themselves. Richard, thanks for what you've done and again

2587
02:13:43,960 --> 02:13:45,760
Speaker 1: for the time you spent with my listeners of me today.

2588
02:13:45,960 --> 02:13:48,919
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the fifty five Cars Morning Show. Robert Spencer,

2589
02:13:49,120 --> 02:13:51,240
Speaker 1: best selling author. Last time he was on the program,

2590
02:13:51,320 --> 02:13:53,800
Speaker 1: we talked about this book, The History of Jihad, The

2591
02:13:53,880 --> 02:13:57,840
Speaker 1: Palestinian Delusion, also Did Muhammad Exist? Another book and the

2592
02:13:57,880 --> 02:14:01,320
Speaker 1: Critical Qur'an. Multiple books He's read, seminars for the FBI,

2593
02:14:01,400 --> 02:14:05,040
Speaker 1: the US Central Command, US Army Command, the General Staff College,

2594
02:14:05,080 --> 02:14:09,760
Speaker 1: and the Asymmetric Warfare Group and the Joint Terrorism Task Force.

2595
02:14:10,440 --> 02:14:13,280
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the fifty five Carosee Morning Show, Robert Spencer.

2596
02:14:13,280 --> 02:14:15,080
Speaker 1: It's great heaven. You want to talk about your brand

2597
02:14:15,120 --> 02:14:18,400
Speaker 1: new book, The Sumpter Gambit. How the Left is trying

2598
02:14:18,440 --> 02:14:21,520
Speaker 1: to foment a civil war, frightening tie of Robert. Welcome

2599
02:14:21,560 --> 02:14:21,960
Speaker 1: to the show.

2600
02:14:22,960 --> 02:14:24,000
Speaker 14: Great to talk to you, Brian.

2601
02:14:24,040 --> 02:14:24,760
Speaker 9: Thank you very much.

2602
02:14:25,040 --> 02:14:28,480
Speaker 1: My distinct pleasure, and I'm staring hopeful. I mean, I

2603
02:14:28,600 --> 02:14:31,720
Speaker 1: want to say I'm in disbelief over the subject matter,

2604
02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:33,640
Speaker 1: but I can't be. I mean, I talk about this

2605
02:14:33,800 --> 02:14:37,240
Speaker 1: kind of thing every single day. The Left is fomenting

2606
02:14:37,320 --> 02:14:41,919
Speaker 1: division across our country and on every subject matter available

2607
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:44,360
Speaker 1: what used to be traditional norms. There's an X and

2608
02:14:44,360 --> 02:14:45,880
Speaker 1: a Y, there's an XC and X. You can tell

2609
02:14:45,880 --> 02:14:49,839
Speaker 1: a boy from a girl chromosomeile. It's definitive. Nope, not anymore.

2610
02:14:50,200 --> 02:14:52,040
Speaker 1: Depends on what you feel like at megiven Day. That's

2611
02:14:52,120 --> 02:14:55,760
Speaker 1: just one of a multitude of topics. You're suggesting in

2612
02:14:55,960 --> 02:14:58,880
Speaker 1: this book that that is in fact a concerted effort

2613
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:00,480
Speaker 1: to foment a civil war.

2614
02:15:00,840 --> 02:15:05,120
Speaker 14: Robert absolutely, absolutely, Brian, no doubt about it. You can look,

2615
02:15:05,200 --> 02:15:09,200
Speaker 14: for example, at Biden's speech from September one, twenty twenty two,

2616
02:15:09,600 --> 02:15:12,840
Speaker 14: where he said Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans are

2617
02:15:13,080 --> 02:15:15,600
Speaker 14: a threat to the very life of the Republic. You

2618
02:15:15,680 --> 02:15:18,879
Speaker 14: can look back in American history at forty five previous presidents,

2619
02:15:18,920 --> 02:15:21,400
Speaker 14: and you will never find a president of the United

2620
02:15:21,400 --> 02:15:24,800
Speaker 14: States saying that his principal opponent and half of the

2621
02:15:24,880 --> 02:15:28,800
Speaker 14: electorate were threats to the republic. There has always been

2622
02:15:28,920 --> 02:15:32,120
Speaker 14: a mutual respect that was the basis of our political system.

2623
02:15:32,480 --> 02:15:35,760
Speaker 14: But now Biden and the people running in are trying

2624
02:15:36,000 --> 02:15:40,520
Speaker 14: to actually silence dissent and allow only their point of

2625
02:15:40,600 --> 02:15:43,560
Speaker 14: view to be heard, and to make it actually a

2626
02:15:43,720 --> 02:15:48,560
Speaker 14: criminal act to oppose his regime. And that's not how

2627
02:15:49,360 --> 02:15:53,800
Speaker 14: a free society works. And that's going to either destroy

2628
02:15:54,000 --> 02:15:58,120
Speaker 14: our freedoms and make the United States radically transform the

2629
02:15:58,240 --> 02:16:01,160
Speaker 14: United States as he himself and Obama put it, or

2630
02:16:01,240 --> 02:16:02,640
Speaker 14: else there will be a civil war.

2631
02:16:03,600 --> 02:16:05,640
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I always, and I got to be

2632
02:16:05,680 --> 02:16:08,760
Speaker 1: honest with you, Maybe perhaps because I'm smarter than them,

2633
02:16:09,000 --> 02:16:10,960
Speaker 1: I always kind of laugh at statements like that. It's

2634
02:16:11,000 --> 02:16:15,160
Speaker 1: just absolutely absurd that conservatives side of the ledger folks

2635
02:16:15,440 --> 02:16:17,760
Speaker 1: like me. I consider myself a libertarian, but I'm a

2636
02:16:17,840 --> 02:16:20,680
Speaker 1: profound constitutionalist. I believe in the freedoms and liberties that

2637
02:16:20,680 --> 02:16:23,280
Speaker 1: are guaranteed by it. I believe in the protections against

2638
02:16:23,320 --> 02:16:26,440
Speaker 1: the abuses by government that are enshrined in the Bill

2639
02:16:26,440 --> 02:16:28,960
Speaker 1: of Rights in the Constitution. I appreciate the fact that

2640
02:16:29,000 --> 02:16:30,960
Speaker 1: the left is trying to undermine them at every turn,

2641
02:16:31,400 --> 02:16:34,480
Speaker 1: but the idea that someone like me who believes in

2642
02:16:34,600 --> 02:16:38,160
Speaker 1: freedom and liberty and fair elections and the constitutional of

2643
02:16:38,680 --> 02:16:41,680
Speaker 1: the republic in which we stand that I'm a threat

2644
02:16:42,240 --> 02:16:44,800
Speaker 1: to the very document that I support ten times, one

2645
02:16:44,840 --> 02:16:47,720
Speaker 1: hundred times, one thousandfold more than they ever would. It

2646
02:16:47,879 --> 02:16:49,600
Speaker 1: just sounds stupid when they say it.

2647
02:16:50,720 --> 02:16:53,600
Speaker 14: It is stupid, and it's an absurd inversion of reality.

2648
02:16:53,920 --> 02:16:57,320
Speaker 14: The problem is they've got the guns, they've got the military,

2649
02:16:57,440 --> 02:17:01,000
Speaker 14: they've got the police, they've got peopleople who are willing

2650
02:17:01,200 --> 02:17:01,560
Speaker 14: to do.

2651
02:17:02,240 --> 02:17:03,400
Speaker 9: What they say.

2652
02:17:03,760 --> 02:17:07,560
Speaker 14: And what they say is that people who call for

2653
02:17:07,640 --> 02:17:10,360
Speaker 14: those things, people who believe in the things you just enumerated,

2654
02:17:10,600 --> 02:17:13,680
Speaker 14: are insurrectionists who have to be watched, who have to

2655
02:17:13,760 --> 02:17:14,840
Speaker 14: be silenced, and so on.

2656
02:17:15,440 --> 02:17:19,160
Speaker 1: But so many of us, me included, are proud firearms

2657
02:17:19,520 --> 02:17:21,640
Speaker 1: plural owners, and we know how to use them and

2658
02:17:21,720 --> 02:17:24,080
Speaker 1: go to the range quite often. We're engaged in shooting

2659
02:17:24,120 --> 02:17:27,360
Speaker 1: sports as I am, rifles at the rifle range, pistols

2660
02:17:27,400 --> 02:17:30,120
Speaker 1: of the pistol range, shooting steels, and I love shooting skiet.

2661
02:17:30,200 --> 02:17:33,440
Speaker 1: So I'd put myself up against any leftist out there

2662
02:17:33,480 --> 02:17:36,120
Speaker 1: in the world. How is it sure? How is it

2663
02:17:36,160 --> 02:17:39,040
Speaker 1: they think they're going to overcome the overwhelming number of

2664
02:17:39,160 --> 02:17:41,680
Speaker 1: firearms owners in this country. If it really did hit

2665
02:17:41,760 --> 02:17:43,920
Speaker 1: the fan along these lines, Robert.

2666
02:17:43,920 --> 02:17:45,480
Speaker 14: Well, in the first place, I do want to say

2667
02:17:45,480 --> 02:17:47,360
Speaker 14: that I'm hoping it won't. I'm hoping that we can

2668
02:17:47,440 --> 02:17:50,200
Speaker 14: head this offf but if it does, I think that

2669
02:17:50,320 --> 02:17:53,600
Speaker 14: we would be naive to think it's just going to

2670
02:17:53,680 --> 02:17:56,920
Speaker 14: be a bunch of patriots with guns against toy boys

2671
02:17:56,959 --> 02:17:59,360
Speaker 14: who think guns are bad and that they're really winmen

2672
02:17:59,440 --> 02:18:03,840
Speaker 14: at heart. It's going to be patriots versus people in

2673
02:18:03,959 --> 02:18:07,680
Speaker 14: the military and the police who think that following orders

2674
02:18:07,720 --> 02:18:11,680
Speaker 14: and keeping their jobs is more important than actually standing

2675
02:18:11,840 --> 02:18:15,360
Speaker 14: for principle. And there are unfortunately a lot of people

2676
02:18:15,520 --> 02:18:17,920
Speaker 14: like that in the United States today, and this is

2677
02:18:18,040 --> 02:18:21,320
Speaker 14: why it could be very difficult if it comes to that,

2678
02:18:21,480 --> 02:18:22,800
Speaker 14: and once again, I hope it doesn't.

2679
02:18:23,320 --> 02:18:26,320
Speaker 1: Well, I guess I'm kind of curious if any research

2680
02:18:26,840 --> 02:18:29,440
Speaker 1: surveys have been done among folks within the military, within

2681
02:18:29,560 --> 02:18:33,080
Speaker 1: law enforcement, because I know every time some looney leftist

2682
02:18:33,160 --> 02:18:35,959
Speaker 1: comes up with a new law banning guns or otherwise

2683
02:18:36,160 --> 02:18:41,039
Speaker 1: criminalizing previously non criminal behavior, that there are sheriffs out

2684
02:18:41,080 --> 02:18:43,040
Speaker 1: in the world, many of them that auld stand up

2685
02:18:43,080 --> 02:18:45,360
Speaker 1: and say, you think I'm the head law enforcement in

2686
02:18:45,400 --> 02:18:47,680
Speaker 1: the county, I am not going to enforce this. I

2687
02:18:47,800 --> 02:18:52,320
Speaker 1: refuse to arrest people who violate this ridiculous rule you

2688
02:18:52,400 --> 02:18:55,879
Speaker 1: put in place because it's unconstitutional. There are I always

2689
02:18:56,000 --> 02:18:58,039
Speaker 1: like to gravitate toward that because the men and women

2690
02:18:58,120 --> 02:18:59,840
Speaker 1: in the military that I know, and the people that

2691
02:18:59,879 --> 02:19:02,040
Speaker 1: I I know that serve in our military, they're the

2692
02:19:02,160 --> 02:19:05,520
Speaker 1: true patriots. That's why they're serving. And I can't imagine

2693
02:19:05,520 --> 02:19:10,920
Speaker 1: them turning a firearm on and otherwise, you know, strong

2694
02:19:11,520 --> 02:19:16,000
Speaker 1: constitutionally sound conservative like myself, just because they're told to.

2695
02:19:17,360 --> 02:19:21,480
Speaker 14: Well, I hate to sound a pessimistic note, and I

2696
02:19:21,720 --> 02:19:24,040
Speaker 14: certainly agree with you. The military the the sault of

2697
02:19:24,040 --> 02:19:28,160
Speaker 14: the earth. These people are patriotic and the rank and

2698
02:19:28,280 --> 02:19:32,720
Speaker 14: file are people that we can count on to uphold

2699
02:19:32,760 --> 02:19:34,960
Speaker 14: the principles of the country, and they're not going to

2700
02:19:35,000 --> 02:19:38,520
Speaker 14: go to war against their own citizens. A problem is

2701
02:19:38,600 --> 02:19:41,800
Speaker 14: that we also have seen that there are people on

2702
02:19:41,879 --> 02:19:46,119
Speaker 14: the other side, like, for example, when Roger Stone was arrested,

2703
02:19:46,280 --> 02:19:49,240
Speaker 14: seventy year old political activists and out threat to anybody,

2704
02:19:49,520 --> 02:19:52,600
Speaker 14: but they could get twenty cops out there to put

2705
02:19:52,680 --> 02:19:55,600
Speaker 14: the cuffs on him and humiliate him in public. When

2706
02:19:55,879 --> 02:19:58,400
Speaker 14: the pro life activists were arrested and they got a

2707
02:19:58,480 --> 02:20:01,640
Speaker 14: swat team and they were willingly going and arresting these

2708
02:20:01,720 --> 02:20:03,960
Speaker 14: pro life activists and making a big show of it

2709
02:20:04,280 --> 02:20:07,680
Speaker 14: as if they were dangerous, see when they're just ordinary

2710
02:20:07,760 --> 02:20:11,520
Speaker 14: people who were standing for life and no threat to anybody.

2711
02:20:12,080 --> 02:20:15,400
Speaker 14: And so if that kind of thing is what I'm

2712
02:20:15,440 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 14: talking about, that if you have people who are willing

2713
02:20:18,560 --> 02:20:22,040
Speaker 14: to staff a swat team to take down an ordinary

2714
02:20:22,120 --> 02:20:26,080
Speaker 14: American citizen or seventy year old political activist, then we

2715
02:20:26,240 --> 02:20:26,840
Speaker 14: got a problem.

2716
02:20:27,080 --> 02:20:27,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2717
02:20:27,520 --> 02:20:29,640
Speaker 1: No, And there's no argument there, and I never would

2718
02:20:29,720 --> 02:20:32,480
Speaker 1: argue with you on that very very valid point that

2719
02:20:32,879 --> 02:20:35,440
Speaker 1: happened though, on what I guess I can say is

2720
02:20:35,480 --> 02:20:38,440
Speaker 1: a micro level. If you're going after one guy, of

2721
02:20:38,520 --> 02:20:40,520
Speaker 1: course you can gather up enough people who are willing

2722
02:20:40,520 --> 02:20:43,080
Speaker 1: to carry out an otherwise ridiculous order to kick in

2723
02:20:43,160 --> 02:20:45,480
Speaker 1: somebody's door in the middle of the night when it

2724
02:20:45,520 --> 02:20:48,840
Speaker 1: was totally unnecessary. But when you're unleashing this on a

2725
02:20:49,120 --> 02:20:52,800
Speaker 1: broad national scale, I always like to look at the numbers.

2726
02:20:52,840 --> 02:20:55,240
Speaker 1: The American military has what two million members or something.

2727
02:20:55,280 --> 02:20:59,120
Speaker 1: We had three hundred and fifty million civilians in this country.

2728
02:20:59,560 --> 02:21:02,080
Speaker 1: I look at the map, and I move your Google

2729
02:21:02,160 --> 02:21:04,920
Speaker 1: map from your house and zoom out a little bit more,

2730
02:21:04,959 --> 02:21:08,080
Speaker 1: a little bit more. Taking an entire neighborhood would require

2731
02:21:08,200 --> 02:21:10,879
Speaker 1: you know, a lot thousands of troops in any given

2732
02:21:10,959 --> 02:21:14,000
Speaker 1: geographic area. Do they have the numbers to pull something

2733
02:21:14,080 --> 02:21:15,480
Speaker 1: like this off. It seems that we would have to

2734
02:21:15,520 --> 02:21:17,920
Speaker 1: start with a declaration of martial law for it to

2735
02:21:18,040 --> 02:21:20,800
Speaker 1: even have a chance of surviving.

2736
02:21:22,160 --> 02:21:25,680
Speaker 14: Well, sure, we're talking about though, the coming to arms,

2737
02:21:25,760 --> 02:21:28,520
Speaker 14: coming to a hot war, which, like I said, I

2738
02:21:28,560 --> 02:21:31,760
Speaker 14: hope it doesn't happen right now. What they're trying to

2739
02:21:31,920 --> 02:21:36,960
Speaker 14: do is rhetorically portray their opponents as being outside the

2740
02:21:37,040 --> 02:21:40,240
Speaker 14: bounds of acceptable political discourse in the United States, and

2741
02:21:40,400 --> 02:21:42,920
Speaker 14: not only just to say that, not only was there

2742
02:21:43,040 --> 02:21:46,880
Speaker 14: just Biden's speech in September, but to act upon that.

2743
02:21:47,120 --> 02:21:49,760
Speaker 14: And that's what we see was, for example, the Twitter files,

2744
02:21:50,040 --> 02:21:54,040
Speaker 14: where we see people in the administration getting people banned

2745
02:21:54,160 --> 02:21:57,320
Speaker 14: from Twitter and from other social media platforms just for

2746
02:21:57,480 --> 02:22:01,600
Speaker 14: disagreeing with the government's line. And the longer use that

2747
02:22:01,879 --> 02:22:05,920
Speaker 14: goes on and the less it is resisted, then the

2748
02:22:06,080 --> 02:22:09,720
Speaker 14: more it will be become a matter of that is

2749
02:22:09,760 --> 02:22:13,000
Speaker 14: taken for granted among an increasing number of the populations

2750
02:22:13,200 --> 02:22:15,720
Speaker 14: that yeah, these people are unacceptable, and yes we must

2751
02:22:15,760 --> 02:22:18,240
Speaker 14: not say things like that, and so we either get

2752
02:22:18,280 --> 02:22:20,040
Speaker 14: into line or will come to conflict.

2753
02:22:20,360 --> 02:22:23,200
Speaker 1: Well, we see with Black Lives Matter in the sixteen

2754
02:22:23,320 --> 02:22:26,040
Speaker 1: nineteen in critical race theory. We see it with the

2755
02:22:26,160 --> 02:22:29,039
Speaker 1: green movement, the green energy. If you don't abide, then

2756
02:22:29,160 --> 02:22:32,080
Speaker 1: you just want to kill the earth or whatever. Again,

2757
02:22:32,160 --> 02:22:35,920
Speaker 1: you can't come to a subject matter that exist in

2758
02:22:36,000 --> 02:22:39,480
Speaker 1: traditional norms in our country that they haven't really really

2759
02:22:40,240 --> 02:22:42,640
Speaker 1: gone to hard work undermining. How you can't even look

2760
02:22:42,680 --> 02:22:45,400
Speaker 1: at the American flag as a symbol of unity anymore.

2761
02:22:45,840 --> 02:22:47,960
Speaker 1: We don't even have our own national anthem. One of

2762
02:22:48,000 --> 02:22:49,960
Speaker 1: my listeners just pointed out, does mister Spencer think the

2763
02:22:50,000 --> 02:22:52,120
Speaker 1: singing of the black national anthem is part of this

2764
02:22:52,360 --> 02:22:52,840
Speaker 1: as well?

2765
02:22:54,400 --> 02:22:55,120
Speaker 8: No doubt about it.

2766
02:22:55,280 --> 02:22:59,080
Speaker 14: Yes, they're trying to sew division, trying to make people

2767
02:22:59,640 --> 02:23:03,320
Speaker 14: loose people's allegiance to the country, makes people not think

2768
02:23:03,440 --> 02:23:06,720
Speaker 14: that they are Americans the way that other people are Americans.

2769
02:23:07,240 --> 02:23:10,320
Speaker 14: And all of that is just laying the groundwork for

2770
02:23:10,640 --> 02:23:16,720
Speaker 14: either taking total control, establishing an authoritarian state, or provoking

2771
02:23:17,080 --> 02:23:20,320
Speaker 14: an incident of resistance that they can use to buttress

2772
02:23:20,480 --> 02:23:25,360
Speaker 14: their ridiculous insurrection claims and crack down upon descent even

2773
02:23:25,440 --> 02:23:26,520
Speaker 14: more than they do already.

2774
02:23:26,879 --> 02:23:28,800
Speaker 1: My guest today Robert Spencer, he's the author of the

2775
02:23:28,800 --> 02:23:31,640
Speaker 1: book we're talking about the Sumpter Gamuit, how the left

2776
02:23:31,720 --> 02:23:34,720
Speaker 1: is trying to foam in a civil war. The name

2777
02:23:34,760 --> 02:23:36,720
Speaker 1: of the book, the Sumter Gambit. Can you describe that

2778
02:23:36,840 --> 02:23:39,160
Speaker 1: for my listeners how you arrived at the title?

2779
02:23:40,320 --> 02:23:43,680
Speaker 14: Yeah, that comes from, of course, Fort Sumter, the beginning

2780
02:23:43,840 --> 02:23:47,680
Speaker 14: of the Civil War in eighteen sixty one, and it

2781
02:23:48,000 --> 02:23:53,359
Speaker 14: was the flashpoint when the South, the Confederates in Charleston,

2782
02:23:53,400 --> 02:23:56,680
Speaker 14: South Carolina, fired upon Fort Sumter. That was the beginning

2783
02:23:56,720 --> 02:23:58,880
Speaker 14: of the war. And now the left is trying to

2784
02:23:58,959 --> 02:24:02,200
Speaker 14: provoke another hint thant of that kind that actually came

2785
02:24:02,280 --> 02:24:07,000
Speaker 14: about when the North decided that it wasn't going to

2786
02:24:07,080 --> 02:24:11,360
Speaker 14: accept the reality of secession and assume that it was

2787
02:24:11,360 --> 02:24:14,240
Speaker 14: still their fort even though the South claimed it and

2788
02:24:14,400 --> 02:24:18,000
Speaker 14: reinforced the soldiers there rather than just evacuating them. And

2789
02:24:18,240 --> 02:24:20,920
Speaker 14: so it's the same kind of thing now that the

2790
02:24:21,040 --> 02:24:25,240
Speaker 14: left is trying to push patriots into doing something like

2791
02:24:25,360 --> 02:24:28,600
Speaker 14: I just said that they can use to support their

2792
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:32,520
Speaker 14: insurrection nonsense or else just we sit back and take

2793
02:24:32,560 --> 02:24:34,600
Speaker 14: it and take it and take it until the country

2794
02:24:34,680 --> 02:24:35,599
Speaker 14: is unrecognizable.

2795
02:24:36,480 --> 02:24:39,880
Speaker 1: Well, I'm immediately really reminded of January sixth and the

2796
02:24:40,120 --> 02:24:43,200
Speaker 1: overreaction the left had to that one, talking about how

2797
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:46,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of like it looks like a drunken fraternity riot.

2798
02:24:46,000 --> 02:24:47,760
Speaker 1: As far as I was concerned, and I was, as

2799
02:24:47,800 --> 02:24:50,280
Speaker 1: I mentioned millions of times my listeners, I was screaming

2800
02:24:50,480 --> 02:24:53,480
Speaker 1: as I was watching that the optics don't do this.

2801
02:24:53,760 --> 02:24:55,400
Speaker 1: Where in the he what the hell is going on?

2802
02:24:55,520 --> 02:24:57,160
Speaker 1: You guys have no idea how bad this is going

2803
02:24:57,240 --> 02:24:58,360
Speaker 1: to look and how much they're going to run with

2804
02:24:58,400 --> 02:25:00,200
Speaker 1: this in the media. And they sure did. But going

2805
02:25:00,280 --> 02:25:03,360
Speaker 1: back to the to the Republican baseball practice where the

2806
02:25:03,680 --> 02:25:07,080
Speaker 1: guy opened fire on Steve Scalise and others, he was

2807
02:25:07,200 --> 02:25:11,680
Speaker 1: he had a hit list. He could have literally turned

2808
02:25:11,720 --> 02:25:15,039
Speaker 1: the tide by killing any a significant number of Republicans there,

2809
02:25:15,080 --> 02:25:17,600
Speaker 1: and that's what his motive was, That's what his goal was.

2810
02:25:18,080 --> 02:25:20,800
Speaker 1: And they called it suicide by cop. He didn't know

2811
02:25:20,840 --> 02:25:22,920
Speaker 1: there were police there when he showed up, and not

2812
02:25:23,040 --> 02:25:25,600
Speaker 1: a word about it. They they've ignored it, and in

2813
02:25:25,720 --> 02:25:29,240
Speaker 1: fact Congress and Winstroup has asked for documents and information

2814
02:25:29,360 --> 02:25:31,080
Speaker 1: relating to it, and they've stonewalled him.

2815
02:25:32,400 --> 02:25:35,560
Speaker 14: Yep, we'll see this kind of thing doesn't fit the narrative, right,

2816
02:25:35,640 --> 02:25:38,880
Speaker 14: and so it doesn't exist. The news media is not

2817
02:25:39,080 --> 02:25:42,200
Speaker 14: about telling us what happened. The news media is about

2818
02:25:42,280 --> 02:25:46,000
Speaker 14: pushing their narrative. And since the shooting of Scalise did not.

2819
02:25:46,080 --> 02:25:47,520
Speaker 9: Fit that, it does not exist.

2820
02:25:47,640 --> 02:25:50,920
Speaker 14: There's just no news about it. And yet any inquiry

2821
02:25:50,959 --> 02:25:51,840
Speaker 14: will be stonewalled.

2822
02:25:52,200 --> 02:25:53,800
Speaker 1: All right, before we part company, and I know my

2823
02:25:53,879 --> 02:25:55,560
Speaker 1: listener are going to get your book, The Sumpter Gamut.

2824
02:25:55,600 --> 02:25:57,120
Speaker 1: They can do it at fifty five cars dot com

2825
02:25:57,200 --> 02:25:58,840
Speaker 1: on the blog page, Get a copy of it, share

2826
02:25:58,840 --> 02:26:01,440
Speaker 1: it with your friends, give us some positive is there

2827
02:26:01,840 --> 02:26:04,400
Speaker 1: What can we do? Is there helpful information in your

2828
02:26:04,400 --> 02:26:06,040
Speaker 1: book that'll steer us in the right direction?

2829
02:26:06,200 --> 02:26:09,640
Speaker 14: Robert, Oh, absolutely, yeah. And there's what we have to

2830
02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:13,040
Speaker 14: do is understand that now is the time that we

2831
02:26:13,120 --> 02:26:15,440
Speaker 14: all have to become activists, that when nobody's going to

2832
02:26:15,520 --> 02:26:17,840
Speaker 14: do this for us, and we cannot sit back and

2833
02:26:17,959 --> 02:26:20,080
Speaker 14: wait for the soldiers to come and save us or

2834
02:26:20,080 --> 02:26:23,560
Speaker 14: anybody else. And so, for example, the parents standing up

2835
02:26:23,600 --> 02:26:26,720
Speaker 14: at school board meetings, the ones who the FBI opened

2836
02:26:26,800 --> 02:26:30,200
Speaker 14: up terrorism investigations against just for speaking out, that's an

2837
02:26:30,240 --> 02:26:32,560
Speaker 14: example of what I'm talking to that but also it's

2838
02:26:32,560 --> 02:26:35,080
Speaker 14: a sign of hope that these parents didn't just sit

2839
02:26:35,200 --> 02:26:37,040
Speaker 14: back and say, gee, it's terrible what they're doing in

2840
02:26:37,080 --> 02:26:39,520
Speaker 14: the schools. They stood up and they made it stop.

2841
02:26:39,959 --> 02:26:42,000
Speaker 14: And that's what we can and must do at this

2842
02:26:42,120 --> 02:26:43,560
Speaker 14: point all across the board.

2843
02:26:43,879 --> 02:26:46,640
Speaker 1: True patriots they are and continue to be. And my

2844
02:26:46,800 --> 02:26:50,760
Speaker 1: listening audience is right in your wheelhouse, Sir Robert Spencer.

2845
02:26:50,760 --> 02:26:52,640
Speaker 1: It's been great having you on the program again. Keep

2846
02:26:52,720 --> 02:26:55,879
Speaker 1: writing these wonderful books. Explain to the American people where

2847
02:26:55,920 --> 02:26:57,200
Speaker 1: we are and what we can do about it. Get

2848
02:26:57,240 --> 02:26:59,280
Speaker 1: a copy of Sumpter Gamut at fifty five caresy dot

2849
02:26:59,360 --> 02:27:01,480
Speaker 1: com have left just trying to foam at a civil war.

2850
02:27:01,879 --> 02:27:04,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for your time and your service, Robert, it's been

2851
02:27:04,000 --> 02:27:06,520
Speaker 1: a real pleasure. By Thomas Hosti the Fintybob cac Morning

2852
02:27:06,560 --> 02:27:09,039
Speaker 1: Show always pleased to talk to authors, but notably when

2853
02:27:09,040 --> 02:27:11,920
Speaker 1: we're dealing with the topic of COVID nineteen. Welcome to

2854
02:27:11,959 --> 02:27:14,800
Speaker 1: the fifty five KRC Morning Show author Brent Hamicheck. He's

2855
02:27:14,800 --> 02:27:18,320
Speaker 1: written a book called Zolenko. How Did Decapitate This Serpent?

2856
02:27:19,000 --> 02:27:21,440
Speaker 1: Is by way of background. In addition to authoring this book,

2857
02:27:21,440 --> 02:27:23,920
Speaker 1: he's owned his own business consulting practice since two thousand.

2858
02:27:23,959 --> 02:27:26,480
Speaker 1: He's a co founder of common Ground Campus, member of

2859
02:27:26,560 --> 02:27:29,280
Speaker 1: Human Events media group parent company Human Events, and the

2860
02:27:29,440 --> 02:27:32,480
Speaker 1: Post Millennial. Got a BS in Finance and Economics from

2861
02:27:32,560 --> 02:27:35,360
Speaker 1: Lake Superior State University, post a graduate degree from the

2862
02:27:36,240 --> 02:27:38,640
Speaker 1: Graduate School of Banking at the University of Wisconsin, and

2863
02:27:39,200 --> 02:27:42,480
Speaker 1: Masters and Studies in theology at Loyola University. Welcome to

2864
02:27:42,520 --> 02:27:44,320
Speaker 1: the program, Brett. It's a real pleasure to have you

2865
02:27:44,400 --> 02:27:44,800
Speaker 1: on today.

2866
02:27:46,120 --> 02:27:47,960
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

2867
02:27:48,400 --> 02:27:50,920
Speaker 3: I always love an opportunity to talk about the book

2868
02:27:51,000 --> 02:27:52,320
Speaker 3: and Jebb's work.

2869
02:27:52,680 --> 02:27:55,000
Speaker 1: Well, let us talk about before we get to the

2870
02:27:55,080 --> 02:27:59,440
Speaker 1: man who is doctor Zolenka Vladimir Zelenko. How did you

2871
02:27:59,520 --> 02:28:02,240
Speaker 1: get interest in writing an entire book on his life

2872
02:28:02,280 --> 02:28:05,040
Speaker 1: and his work in COVID nineteen and alternatives to the

2873
02:28:05,160 --> 02:28:06,920
Speaker 1: narrative that we get from the mainstream media and the

2874
02:28:06,959 --> 02:28:08,800
Speaker 1: World Health Organization and CDC.

2875
02:28:10,760 --> 02:28:14,080
Speaker 3: Well, I got interested in it by way of getting

2876
02:28:14,200 --> 02:28:17,480
Speaker 3: interested first in him, and I had an opportunity to

2877
02:28:17,560 --> 02:28:20,720
Speaker 3: first get acquainted with zev as his friends called him.

2878
02:28:21,520 --> 02:28:25,720
Speaker 3: Back in late twenty twenty when a dear friend of mine,

2879
02:28:26,040 --> 02:28:29,439
Speaker 3: tamer Lee, who knew him and had met him, introduced

2880
02:28:29,520 --> 02:28:33,920
Speaker 3: us and from there developed a friendship, and that friendship

2881
02:28:34,080 --> 02:28:38,920
Speaker 3: led to constant communication during the later stages of the pandemic,

2882
02:28:39,680 --> 02:28:42,960
Speaker 3: but usually not about the virus. Usually we would talk

2883
02:28:43,040 --> 02:28:47,560
Speaker 3: about political theory or theology. He was a very brilliant man,

2884
02:28:48,040 --> 02:28:52,920
Speaker 3: and that friendship, those conversations ultimately led to the idea

2885
02:28:53,080 --> 02:28:56,880
Speaker 3: that a book ought to be written. And Zev had

2886
02:28:56,879 --> 02:29:00,400
Speaker 3: a terminal cancer diagnosis given to him way back twenty

2887
02:29:00,480 --> 02:29:04,920
Speaker 3: eighteen before the pandemic ever started, and once it was

2888
02:29:05,040 --> 02:29:07,480
Speaker 3: decided that he wanted to write a book, then we

2889
02:29:07,680 --> 02:29:12,320
Speaker 3: tried to do so with all deliberate speed, and sadly,

2890
02:29:12,800 --> 02:29:16,600
Speaker 3: the book was completed just after his passing in June

2891
02:29:16,600 --> 02:29:20,560
Speaker 3: of last year. But fortunately it's based on over sixty

2892
02:29:20,600 --> 02:29:24,880
Speaker 3: hours of recorded interviews and countless conversations that weren't recorded.

2893
02:29:25,440 --> 02:29:28,480
Speaker 3: So it is his input into the book that was

2894
02:29:28,560 --> 02:29:29,320
Speaker 3: ultimately written.

2895
02:29:29,920 --> 02:29:31,920
Speaker 1: Okay, and he became a bit of a lightning rod

2896
02:29:32,120 --> 02:29:35,560
Speaker 1: my understanding. As he posted back in twenty twenty video

2897
02:29:35,640 --> 02:29:40,760
Speaker 1: on YouTube regarding hydroxy chloro queen, I guess his protocol

2898
02:29:40,840 --> 02:29:43,520
Speaker 1: for dealing with COVID the hydroxy chlor queen you have

2899
02:29:43,760 --> 02:29:47,120
Speaker 1: zinc sulfate a xethramiasin, and he suggested that he had

2900
02:29:47,360 --> 02:29:51,199
Speaker 1: cured or treated hundreds of patients successfully with that. Donald

2901
02:29:51,280 --> 02:29:55,840
Speaker 1: Trump mentioned zev in comments about hydroxy chloro queen, and

2902
02:29:56,920 --> 02:29:59,160
Speaker 1: it's almost at that moment in time that he became

2903
02:29:59,240 --> 02:30:03,000
Speaker 1: this lightning r I guess because Trump embraced the concept,

2904
02:30:03,160 --> 02:30:06,320
Speaker 1: it became their boten. Did you reach that conclusion? I

2905
02:30:06,400 --> 02:30:08,000
Speaker 1: know it's a broad brush statement, but is that the

2906
02:30:08,080 --> 02:30:09,000
Speaker 1: conclusion you reached.

2907
02:30:10,160 --> 02:30:13,240
Speaker 3: Oh, your broad brush statement could have been painted with

2908
02:30:13,360 --> 02:30:17,760
Speaker 3: an artist narrow brush for detail, because you have it

2909
02:30:17,959 --> 02:30:22,480
Speaker 3: exactly right. And that's exactly what happened. And it was

2910
02:30:23,240 --> 02:30:29,240
Speaker 3: zev who first discovered the effective treatment protocol for treated

2911
02:30:29,240 --> 02:30:31,840
Speaker 3: and virus. And if you moved the clock forward to

2912
02:30:31,920 --> 02:30:33,440
Speaker 3: the end of his life, by the time he had

2913
02:30:33,480 --> 02:30:37,760
Speaker 3: passed away, he had overseen the treatment for approximately seventy

2914
02:30:37,840 --> 02:30:42,680
Speaker 3: five hundred patients with three deaths, and the three deaths

2915
02:30:42,800 --> 02:30:46,160
Speaker 3: which we talked about in the book, we're probably destined

2916
02:30:46,200 --> 02:30:50,400
Speaker 3: to happen no matter what. And it was him who

2917
02:30:50,480 --> 02:30:53,280
Speaker 3: had given the information to the White House with regard

2918
02:30:53,360 --> 02:30:56,240
Speaker 3: to the efficacy of the treatment protocol you just mentioned.

2919
02:30:56,920 --> 02:31:00,120
Speaker 3: And there can be no question at all that the

2920
02:31:00,320 --> 02:31:03,960
Speaker 3: very fact that Donald Trump mentioned it, because of the

2921
02:31:04,120 --> 02:31:08,560
Speaker 3: meet media's vitriolic hatred of him, that once he said

2922
02:31:08,640 --> 02:31:12,560
Speaker 3: hydroxychloric when could be part of the solution, they had

2923
02:31:12,640 --> 02:31:16,560
Speaker 3: to make sure that never happened. That was very political.

2924
02:31:17,600 --> 02:31:21,320
Speaker 3: And the idea that you know, a million plus people

2925
02:31:21,480 --> 02:31:26,080
Speaker 3: died unnecessarily simply over politics and of course over money

2926
02:31:28,000 --> 02:31:31,720
Speaker 3: is well. Zev called it a crime against humanity. I

2927
02:31:31,840 --> 02:31:32,880
Speaker 3: think it was exactly that.

2928
02:31:34,440 --> 02:31:36,720
Speaker 1: I guess I'm appalled. I mean, it's hard for me,

2929
02:31:36,800 --> 02:31:38,840
Speaker 1: and I trust me, I do not doubt for a

2930
02:31:38,959 --> 02:31:42,840
Speaker 1: moment that is how it all wind up. Trump says

2931
02:31:42,920 --> 02:31:45,360
Speaker 1: something and everybody on the left hand side of the

2932
02:31:45,400 --> 02:31:47,560
Speaker 1: ledge of those that hate him immediately call that a lie,

2933
02:31:47,879 --> 02:31:49,520
Speaker 1: and we'll do the exact opposite. And we saw that

2934
02:31:49,600 --> 02:31:52,160
Speaker 1: with a border, Trump successfully stopped the influx of immigration.

2935
02:31:52,320 --> 02:31:54,480
Speaker 1: As soon as Biden comes in, he reverses everything Trump

2936
02:31:54,560 --> 02:31:57,160
Speaker 1: did just because Trump did it, and we're left with

2937
02:31:57,200 --> 02:32:02,240
Speaker 1: this disgusting aftermath. I guess I'm just appalled at the

2938
02:32:02,360 --> 02:32:07,360
Speaker 1: notion that for political reasons, legitimate scientists, I mean medical

2939
02:32:07,400 --> 02:32:09,440
Speaker 1: community folks, folks that are supposed to be, you know,

2940
02:32:09,600 --> 02:32:13,560
Speaker 1: diagnosticians and are interested in finding the truth would simply

2941
02:32:13,680 --> 02:32:16,720
Speaker 1: disregard this. Did they ever subject his protocol to a

2942
02:32:16,800 --> 02:32:19,680
Speaker 1: peer reviewed study? I mean, did they bother even looking

2943
02:32:19,800 --> 02:32:22,160
Speaker 1: into it? It just became this if Trump said it,

2944
02:32:22,280 --> 02:32:24,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, you're crazy to use it. This is

2945
02:32:24,720 --> 02:32:26,240
Speaker 1: a horse medication or something.

2946
02:32:28,040 --> 02:32:33,120
Speaker 3: Yes. Subsequently, yes the protocol has been tested, and yes,

2947
02:32:33,320 --> 02:32:37,960
Speaker 3: the protocol has been proven to be effective. We in

2948
02:32:38,080 --> 02:32:42,160
Speaker 3: the book we show that research, and we also show

2949
02:32:42,240 --> 02:32:46,560
Speaker 3: the research that was deliberately designed to produce what we

2950
02:32:46,680 --> 02:32:50,240
Speaker 3: could call a false negative. And without going too far

2951
02:32:50,320 --> 02:32:53,360
Speaker 3: into weaves, first of all, if your audience picks up

2952
02:32:53,400 --> 02:32:57,440
Speaker 3: a copy of Zelenko through zelenkobook dot com, they can

2953
02:32:57,520 --> 02:33:01,360
Speaker 3: read about this in detail. But the judgen that studies

2954
02:33:01,440 --> 02:33:07,960
Speaker 3: were conducted that used either hydroxychloroicline or ivermectin in a

2955
02:33:08,080 --> 02:33:13,400
Speaker 3: way that was never suggested or prescribed by the physicians

2956
02:33:13,600 --> 02:33:17,120
Speaker 3: using it. So, in other words, they said, oh, there's

2957
02:33:17,160 --> 02:33:20,280
Speaker 3: a claim that these drugs can be effective against the virus.

2958
02:33:20,800 --> 02:33:24,880
Speaker 3: Let's test it only when we test it. Let's test

2959
02:33:24,920 --> 02:33:28,680
Speaker 3: it in a way that nobody's using it. And so

2960
02:33:28,879 --> 02:33:31,120
Speaker 3: they would do so, and they would produce studies and

2961
02:33:31,160 --> 02:33:34,320
Speaker 3: they would basically say, see it doesn't work. The problem

2962
02:33:34,560 --> 02:33:38,840
Speaker 3: was nobody claimed that it worked in the manner in

2963
02:33:38,920 --> 02:33:42,280
Speaker 3: which they were producing the study, In the studies that

2964
02:33:42,360 --> 02:33:45,200
Speaker 3: had been done that use Zelenko protocol the way it

2965
02:33:45,280 --> 02:33:47,320
Speaker 3: was intended to be used the way it was used.

2966
02:33:48,160 --> 02:33:52,199
Speaker 3: The facts are clear, and Zev's work was fully vindicated

2967
02:33:52,360 --> 02:33:56,320
Speaker 3: prior to his death, which he knew, in which brought

2968
02:33:56,360 --> 02:33:59,160
Speaker 3: him a good deal of joy in his final months.

2969
02:34:00,240 --> 02:34:02,199
Speaker 1: If I can draw a parallel that I think applies

2970
02:34:02,240 --> 02:34:03,800
Speaker 1: here in police, feel free to correct me if I'm

2971
02:34:03,840 --> 02:34:06,840
Speaker 1: way off base. I recall back in the seventies as

2972
02:34:06,840 --> 02:34:09,879
Speaker 1: a young child, remember the sacrin scare that was all

2973
02:34:09,959 --> 02:34:12,519
Speaker 1: going to give us liver cancer or something. It was carcinogenic.

2974
02:34:12,760 --> 02:34:15,440
Speaker 1: But the studies they used subjected the mice in the

2975
02:34:15,480 --> 02:34:17,920
Speaker 1: study to like eight hundred gallons worth of the stuff

2976
02:34:17,959 --> 02:34:20,320
Speaker 1: a day, on a level at which no one would

2977
02:34:20,400 --> 02:34:23,440
Speaker 1: ever take it. So is that an analogy that for

2978
02:34:23,560 --> 02:34:26,080
Speaker 1: the protocol. If they had only used the amounts he

2979
02:34:26,320 --> 02:34:28,960
Speaker 1: called for in his protocol, as you pointed out, it

2980
02:34:29,000 --> 02:34:32,200
Speaker 1: would have proven it a good protocol and a worthy one.

2981
02:34:33,080 --> 02:34:34,240
Speaker 1: They just didn't do it that way.

2982
02:34:36,320 --> 02:34:40,640
Speaker 3: You're exactly right, Only it's worse, So think of it

2983
02:34:40,720 --> 02:34:44,360
Speaker 3: this way in the Sacram studies, that was just sort

2984
02:34:44,400 --> 02:34:48,360
Speaker 3: of even to any lay person, that was sloppy research, right.

2985
02:34:48,440 --> 02:34:51,160
Speaker 3: I mean, of course, if you inject enough of anything

2986
02:34:51,440 --> 02:34:56,080
Speaker 3: into anything, it'll do it harm. In this case, it

2987
02:34:56,240 --> 02:35:00,360
Speaker 3: is different because they had an actual proto call that

2988
02:35:00,560 --> 02:35:04,120
Speaker 3: was being used, and instead of testing the protocol in

2989
02:35:04,200 --> 02:35:09,520
Speaker 3: many of these studies, they altered the protocol intentionally to

2990
02:35:09,680 --> 02:35:13,680
Speaker 3: distort the message that the public would get. And so

2991
02:35:14,280 --> 02:35:17,920
Speaker 3: that's far worse. One is sloppy and perhaps ill conceived

2992
02:35:17,959 --> 02:35:20,280
Speaker 3: in the case of the Sacram, and the other is

2993
02:35:20,400 --> 02:35:24,199
Speaker 3: intentional with purpose and malice. The forethought, in the case

2994
02:35:24,240 --> 02:35:27,440
Speaker 3: of the studies on hydroxy cleric when in ivermectin.

2995
02:35:27,520 --> 02:35:32,119
Speaker 1: Did doctor Zelenko survive to analyze those studies that were

2996
02:35:32,160 --> 02:35:34,920
Speaker 1: done that suggested his protocol was worthless? I mean, did

2997
02:35:35,000 --> 02:35:36,720
Speaker 1: he have a reaction to that given all the hours

2998
02:35:36,760 --> 02:35:39,119
Speaker 1: you spent with him, Oh.

2999
02:35:39,160 --> 02:35:42,640
Speaker 3: He absolutely did. And let me just share briefly with

3000
02:35:42,840 --> 02:35:47,640
Speaker 3: your audience that Vladimir Zelenko traveled what we call an

3001
02:35:47,680 --> 02:35:52,240
Speaker 3: America and what we love in America, the hero's journey, right,

3002
02:35:52,360 --> 02:35:55,000
Speaker 3: And so the hero's journey. You know, he was born

3003
02:35:55,080 --> 02:35:57,280
Speaker 3: in Kiev and came here with his family at the

3004
02:35:57,360 --> 02:36:00,480
Speaker 3: age of four, grew up and lived a modesty life,

3005
02:36:00,800 --> 02:36:05,560
Speaker 3: became a regular family medical practitioner in upstate New York,

3006
02:36:06,879 --> 02:36:09,760
Speaker 3: you know, kind of the life of his community. Used

3007
02:36:09,760 --> 02:36:11,880
Speaker 3: to say he was a family member to all of

3008
02:36:11,959 --> 02:36:15,440
Speaker 3: his patients. And then one day patients started to get

3009
02:36:15,520 --> 02:36:18,720
Speaker 3: really sick and they started to die. And instead of

3010
02:36:18,800 --> 02:36:22,040
Speaker 3: sitting around and waiting to find out from government or

3011
02:36:22,080 --> 02:36:24,600
Speaker 3: the health industry what he should do, he started to

3012
02:36:24,640 --> 02:36:27,400
Speaker 3: do some research and he figured out what's come to

3013
02:36:27,480 --> 02:36:31,200
Speaker 3: be known as the Zelenko protocol. For that he should

3014
02:36:31,200 --> 02:36:34,840
Speaker 3: have been given parades and treated as a hero. Instead,

3015
02:36:35,280 --> 02:36:38,600
Speaker 3: like the hero's journey often encounters, he was faced with

3016
02:36:38,720 --> 02:36:42,760
Speaker 3: scorn and ridicule, and then ultimately, by the end of

3017
02:36:42,800 --> 02:36:46,520
Speaker 3: his life, the research, the results of treatment around the

3018
02:36:46,560 --> 02:36:51,200
Speaker 3: world fully vindicated what he had claimed along the way.

3019
02:36:51,840 --> 02:36:55,440
Speaker 3: So this is the story the Americans love, and it's

3020
02:36:55,520 --> 02:36:57,320
Speaker 3: the story that we try to tell in the book.

3021
02:36:57,879 --> 02:37:00,320
Speaker 3: And yes, he did survive long enough to reach both

3022
02:37:00,400 --> 02:37:03,240
Speaker 3: the bad research and then the vindicating research.

3023
02:37:03,480 --> 02:37:06,200
Speaker 1: Well, given if there is vindicating research out there, and

3024
02:37:06,280 --> 02:37:10,199
Speaker 1: that the proving that these protocols actually work, why don't

3025
02:37:10,240 --> 02:37:12,760
Speaker 1: we hear about them? Brett I mean, it's still get

3026
02:37:12,800 --> 02:37:15,240
Speaker 1: a vaccine, get the Pfizer back, get the booster shot,

3027
02:37:15,320 --> 02:37:17,400
Speaker 1: get ten booster shots, get one every year. I mean,

3028
02:37:17,560 --> 02:37:19,120
Speaker 1: I haven't heard anybody talk about it. Well, you know,

3029
02:37:19,200 --> 02:37:20,840
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what you get COVID not a big deal.

3030
02:37:20,920 --> 02:37:22,440
Speaker 1: Just use the protocol and you're gonna be fine.

3031
02:37:23,800 --> 02:37:23,959
Speaker 4: Right.

3032
02:37:24,200 --> 02:37:27,560
Speaker 3: Well, let's let's let's get really really dark and really

3033
02:37:27,680 --> 02:37:33,200
Speaker 3: really cynical about human nature. Please, so so, because because

3034
02:37:33,240 --> 02:37:34,760
Speaker 3: that's where we should stay all the time.

3035
02:37:34,800 --> 02:37:38,880
Speaker 1: Anyway, And amen, brother, amen, I tell everyone be jaded

3036
02:37:38,920 --> 02:37:42,200
Speaker 1: and cynical about everything. Do your own research and make

3037
02:37:42,280 --> 02:37:44,120
Speaker 1: sure you're smart about the research you're doing. Sorry I

3038
02:37:44,200 --> 02:37:46,119
Speaker 1: had to interject that, but you are talking my talk,

3039
02:37:46,240 --> 02:37:46,640
Speaker 1: my friend.

3040
02:37:47,600 --> 02:37:50,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, no problem at all. Somebody want to

3041
02:37:50,160 --> 02:37:53,680
Speaker 3: interject on me and stop me everyone a while. So, So,

3042
02:37:54,240 --> 02:37:56,520
Speaker 3: what your audience perhaps has learned by now, and if

3043
02:37:56,560 --> 02:37:58,840
Speaker 3: they haven't, they'll read and understanding the book is that

3044
02:38:00,080 --> 02:38:05,039
Speaker 3: you can't get emergency use authorization for a vaccine if

3045
02:38:05,120 --> 02:38:09,360
Speaker 3: there is a known, aspective and widely available treatment for

3046
02:38:09,480 --> 02:38:15,279
Speaker 3: the disease against which you're vaccinating. Said differently, the FIZA

3047
02:38:15,320 --> 02:38:18,360
Speaker 3: of the Maderna vaccines and others never could have been

3048
02:38:18,400 --> 02:38:21,320
Speaker 3: brought to market as fast as they were if there

3049
02:38:21,480 --> 02:38:25,480
Speaker 3: was an accepted effective way to treat people. Well, there was,

3050
02:38:26,400 --> 02:38:28,320
Speaker 3: So what do you do? You suppress it.

3051
02:38:29,040 --> 02:38:32,400
Speaker 9: And that's exactly what happened. So the treatment was suppressed

3052
02:38:33,080 --> 02:38:37,000
Speaker 9: so that emergency use authorizations could be received, so that

3053
02:38:37,120 --> 02:38:40,360
Speaker 9: the pharmaceutical companies could make a lot of money, and

3054
02:38:40,480 --> 02:38:43,720
Speaker 9: so that politicians involved in promoting the vaccine could.

3055
02:38:43,600 --> 02:38:47,280
Speaker 3: Look like heroes. Now, if that's not bad enough, let's

3056
02:38:47,320 --> 02:38:49,720
Speaker 3: make it a little bit worse. Let's answer your question.

3057
02:38:50,400 --> 02:38:53,760
Speaker 3: So that's where it started. Why aren't we hearing all

3058
02:38:53,879 --> 02:38:56,640
Speaker 3: about it everywhere today? Why doesn't the New York Times

3059
02:38:56,720 --> 02:39:00,160
Speaker 3: run a story every morning? Well here's the reason. How

3060
02:39:00,320 --> 02:39:06,360
Speaker 3: can they? Because for an extended period of time, First

3061
02:39:06,480 --> 02:39:09,840
Speaker 3: they lied to people about the efficacy of treatment, Then

3062
02:39:09,920 --> 02:39:12,519
Speaker 3: they lied to people about the need for a vaccine.

3063
02:39:13,200 --> 02:39:16,000
Speaker 3: What are they going to do now? Are they going

3064
02:39:16,040 --> 02:39:19,520
Speaker 3: to suddenly come clean? Are they going to admit to

3065
02:39:19,640 --> 02:39:22,959
Speaker 3: their mistakes? Are they going to do honest reporting? All

3066
02:39:23,040 --> 02:39:26,240
Speaker 3: those things would be a form of self lynching. And

3067
02:39:26,360 --> 02:39:28,520
Speaker 3: of course we know that people aren't into that. It's

3068
02:39:28,520 --> 02:39:32,160
Speaker 3: a general habit. So they didn't do it on purpose.

3069
02:39:32,240 --> 02:39:34,720
Speaker 3: At the start, whether it was because of Trump or

3070
02:39:34,760 --> 02:39:37,560
Speaker 3: whether it was because of money and politics. And they

3071
02:39:37,600 --> 02:39:40,360
Speaker 3: won't do it now because they won't atone for their

3072
02:39:40,440 --> 02:39:43,199
Speaker 3: past sins. They won't admit their culpability.

3073
02:39:43,640 --> 02:39:46,600
Speaker 1: Well, you know, there's nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong. Listen,

3074
02:39:46,720 --> 02:39:48,680
Speaker 1: I got caught up in the flurry as well. I

3075
02:39:49,400 --> 02:39:51,200
Speaker 1: listened to what they were telling us. I took them

3076
02:39:51,240 --> 02:39:53,800
Speaker 1: at their word. I was lied to. I mean that

3077
02:39:54,080 --> 02:39:58,400
Speaker 1: to me, it establishes or re establishes I might argue

3078
02:39:58,440 --> 02:40:01,000
Speaker 1: their credibility by admitting them were wrong at one point.

3079
02:40:02,680 --> 02:40:06,600
Speaker 3: Well, of course that's true, right, we all like to

3080
02:40:06,680 --> 02:40:09,680
Speaker 3: admit we're wrong. There's a couple of different things here.

3081
02:40:10,760 --> 02:40:17,080
Speaker 3: Admitting you're wrong usually comes when you sincerely and genuinely

3082
02:40:17,240 --> 02:40:21,720
Speaker 3: were mistaken and you feel some form of contrition. They

3083
02:40:21,760 --> 02:40:26,119
Speaker 3: were deliberately complicit and oh, by the way, it's hard

3084
02:40:26,240 --> 02:40:29,160
Speaker 3: to say to the public, gosh, I was wrong when

3085
02:40:29,440 --> 02:40:33,320
Speaker 3: you being wrong if you were resulted in over a

3086
02:40:33,480 --> 02:40:37,520
Speaker 3: million deaths. So whether some of them want to say it,

3087
02:40:37,760 --> 02:40:41,000
Speaker 3: they might, they're afraid to because they know what they did.

3088
02:40:41,600 --> 02:40:43,520
Speaker 3: And for most of them, they aren't contrite in the

3089
02:40:43,600 --> 02:40:47,040
Speaker 3: first place. They're not sorry about anything. They did it

3090
02:40:47,160 --> 02:40:49,640
Speaker 3: on purpose, and a million human beings in the United

3091
02:40:49,680 --> 02:40:52,000
Speaker 3: States were an acceptable loss.

3092
02:40:53,800 --> 02:40:57,279
Speaker 1: I could talk to you for literally hours of Bret Hamichak,

3093
02:40:57,280 --> 02:40:58,880
Speaker 1: author of the book we're referring to you today, are

3094
02:40:58,879 --> 02:41:02,440
Speaker 1: talking about Day's LINKA, how did decapitate the servant? Are

3095
02:41:03,120 --> 02:41:06,000
Speaker 1: you of the mind that this committee, this sub committee

3096
02:41:06,000 --> 02:41:08,680
Speaker 1: that has been established to look into COVID, the origins

3097
02:41:08,720 --> 02:41:12,280
Speaker 1: the lies by the Republicans in Congress? Now, are you

3098
02:41:12,400 --> 02:41:14,720
Speaker 1: have any hope whatsoever that this is going to reveal

3099
02:41:14,879 --> 02:41:17,000
Speaker 1: something along the lines of what you have revealed in

3100
02:41:17,120 --> 02:41:17,520
Speaker 1: this book.

3101
02:41:19,160 --> 02:41:22,560
Speaker 3: I have every reason to hope that it will reveal

3102
02:41:23,160 --> 02:41:26,680
Speaker 3: much of what's in the book, and even more right,

3103
02:41:26,800 --> 02:41:29,920
Speaker 3: I mean, while we knew about vaccine injuries and things

3104
02:41:30,000 --> 02:41:32,800
Speaker 3: when this by the time this manuscript was completed, which

3105
02:41:33,080 --> 02:41:35,640
Speaker 3: for time reference, was the middle of August of this

3106
02:41:35,800 --> 02:41:38,440
Speaker 3: past year, so the book gets sent to the publisher.

3107
02:41:38,520 --> 02:41:41,440
Speaker 3: Then what we've learned a lot more since then about

3108
02:41:41,480 --> 02:41:44,680
Speaker 3: vaccine injuries and the side effects. We knew plenty, and

3109
02:41:44,760 --> 02:41:47,680
Speaker 3: we know more. So yes, I'm hopeful that more will

3110
02:41:47,720 --> 02:41:51,760
Speaker 3: come out. Here's what I'm not hopeful about that anybody

3111
02:41:51,879 --> 02:41:56,119
Speaker 3: will pay attention to it. Who isn't already paying attention

3112
02:41:56,320 --> 02:42:00,800
Speaker 3: to it. So it's not about folks like yourself, myself,

3113
02:42:00,959 --> 02:42:04,200
Speaker 3: for others in your audience who have been tuned into

3114
02:42:04,280 --> 02:42:07,760
Speaker 3: this and they get it right. It is about the

3115
02:42:07,879 --> 02:42:11,280
Speaker 3: millions who have either been tuned down or misled. And

3116
02:42:11,600 --> 02:42:14,640
Speaker 3: will they look at this when the information gets as

3117
02:42:14,680 --> 02:42:16,640
Speaker 3: it comes out of this committee, and I believe it will,

3118
02:42:17,280 --> 02:42:19,160
Speaker 3: Are they going to look at it and say, oh

3119
02:42:19,240 --> 02:42:23,000
Speaker 3: my god, what have they done? Or will they look

3120
02:42:23,040 --> 02:42:25,200
Speaker 3: at it and simply find a way to swipe left

3121
02:42:25,280 --> 02:42:28,280
Speaker 3: on it. It's a republican committee, they're just trying to

3122
02:42:28,320 --> 02:42:33,160
Speaker 3: get even. It's more propaganda. It's easier to dismiss an

3123
02:42:33,360 --> 02:42:37,600
Speaker 3: inconvenient truth than it is to confront it and contemplate it.

3124
02:42:38,120 --> 02:42:41,320
Speaker 3: And so my fear is that most people will again

3125
02:42:41,400 --> 02:42:44,280
Speaker 3: simply swipe left on the inconvenient truth.

3126
02:42:44,560 --> 02:42:48,680
Speaker 1: Well, we'll see, brilliantly stated, and I certainly appreciate your

3127
02:42:48,720 --> 02:42:51,560
Speaker 1: analysis along those lines, and I tend to agree along

3128
02:42:52,080 --> 02:42:55,360
Speaker 1: what you have concluded. They have so successfully polluted the

3129
02:42:55,440 --> 02:42:59,520
Speaker 1: well because of the political bias that you're right, swiping

3130
02:42:59,600 --> 02:43:01,800
Speaker 1: one direct or another seems inevitable. This has been a

3131
02:43:01,879 --> 02:43:04,560
Speaker 1: fantastic conversation. I can't thank you enough on behalf of

3132
02:43:04,600 --> 02:43:07,000
Speaker 1: my listeners for writing the book. Zelenko, how did he

3133
02:43:07,040 --> 02:43:09,760
Speaker 1: capitate the serpent? You mentioned your website. I'll also tell

3134
02:43:09,800 --> 02:43:11,320
Speaker 1: you we're going to put it up on fifty five

3135
02:43:11,400 --> 02:43:14,800
Speaker 1: KRC dot com so people can easily have the link

3136
02:43:14,840 --> 02:43:16,680
Speaker 1: there and get a copy of the book, which I

3137
02:43:16,840 --> 02:43:18,840
Speaker 1: certainly will encourage them to get and share it with

3138
02:43:18,920 --> 02:43:22,080
Speaker 1: your friends and might I offer, hey, Brett, send the

3139
02:43:22,200 --> 02:43:24,800
Speaker 1: books to everybody on that committee so they have a

3140
02:43:24,920 --> 02:43:27,080
Speaker 1: copy of it conveniently and they can look into it

3141
02:43:27,160 --> 02:43:28,480
Speaker 1: while they're looking into the COVID.

3142
02:43:29,800 --> 02:43:32,879
Speaker 3: I think you just increased my ups billing for the day.

3143
02:43:32,920 --> 02:43:34,000
Speaker 3: It's a splendid idea.

3144
02:43:34,320 --> 02:43:36,000
Speaker 1: Take care of my friend. It's been great talking to you.

3145
02:43:36,120 --> 02:43:37,880
Speaker 1: Thanks again for writing the book and spending time with

3146
02:43:38,000 --> 02:43:39,320
Speaker 1: us this morning on the Morning Show.