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Speaker 1: ESPN fifteen thirty, Cincinnati's sports station.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that a day or at least a

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Speaker 2: week goes by without sports and the law intersecting. The

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Speaker 2: Stefan Diggs story, which is not good, would be an

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Speaker 2: example of that. We'll maybe spend some time on that

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Speaker 2: next week. And so I've wanted for a while. I've

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Speaker 2: wanted somebody on our show who could talk about sports

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Speaker 2: and the law and not necessarily an athlete getting in trouble.

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Speaker 2: But like with what's happening in college sports right now,

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Speaker 2: the courts are often involved, and when they're not, they

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Speaker 2: probably will be. And so we have can I say

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Speaker 2: we've we've gotten on retainer to use the proper term.

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Speaker 2: Stuart Penrose from the Manilo Law Group, it's you're my

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Speaker 2: new legal guy.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad, glad to be Thanks for having me on

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Speaker 3: the show, MO, I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna end up answering a lot of really dumb

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Speaker 2: questions from me.

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Speaker 3: I answer dumb questions every day, both personally and professionally.

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Speaker 3: I've answered dumb question on the radio with Kid Chris

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Speaker 3: for years. That's not new to me.

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Speaker 2: Uh, he's better at asking dumb questions yes, he is.

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Speaker 2: All right, So so there's this is awesome and uh,

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Speaker 2: and we're gonna have you every week. There's there's always

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Speaker 2: stuff floating around as it relates to sports and the law.

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Speaker 2: And sometimes it's like a real serious legal issue. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: it's you know, something in the courts that's kind of

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Speaker 2: complex and beyond the realm of uh my understanding. Uh,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes we'll have some fun stuff. So it's gonna

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Speaker 2: be a mixed bag. But I'm excited to do this.

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Speaker 3: It's awesome to have you as am. I very excited.

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Speaker 2: Uh let's start with this. So college sports are very

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Speaker 2: much in a weird place right. We have unprecedented challenges

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Speaker 2: in college sports as it relates to athlete compensation, the

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Speaker 2: transfer portal, and now we have players getting eligibility even

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Speaker 2: though they've already been drafted by an NBA team. And

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Speaker 2: at the heart of all this, it feels like the

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Speaker 2: NCAA is basically saying, well, we're gonna let this guy

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Speaker 2: be eligible because if we end up getting taken the court,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna lose. The n cuaa's track record in court

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Speaker 2: is not good.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly what it is.

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Speaker 3: The crux of it is they've been losing anti trust

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Speaker 3: lawsuits started with the the ed O Bannon case. He's

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Speaker 3: put in a video game with his likeness and says, hey,

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Speaker 3: this isn't right, ensues over it, and he wins, and

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Speaker 3: you know that starts a string of lawsuits that challenge

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Speaker 3: the n C double a on antitrust laws. You had,

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Speaker 3: you know, another case just a few years ago, the

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Speaker 3: ash In case that basically opened nil completely supreme you know,

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Speaker 3: unanimous Supreme Court decision says that you can't stop these

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Speaker 3: players from earning money from their name, image and likeness,

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Speaker 3: that it violates anti trust laws to to do that

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Speaker 3: and stop them from having open, uh, you know, markets

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Speaker 3: for their compensation.

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Speaker 2: So we hear the term anti trust, which is not

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Speaker 2: a sports term. It's a sure a legal term, but

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Speaker 2: it's used all the time as it relates to sports.

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Speaker 2: This is a stupid question. What what are anti trust

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Speaker 2: laws about markets?

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Speaker 3: About having free markets, the ability to uh to earn

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Speaker 3: a living, the ability to have free markets determine prices

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Speaker 3: of goods of services.

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Speaker 4: It's about free markets.

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Speaker 2: Baseball's gotten anti trust exemptions, Professional sports leagues have gotten

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Speaker 2: anti trust exemptions. Good college athletics get anti trust exemptions.

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Speaker 4: There are some limits to it.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to see unlimited eligibility for instance. There

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Speaker 3: there are certain limits to where it can go with it.

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Speaker 3: But the n C double A, they had an old

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Speaker 3: model of have heart, you know, very strict rules, focus

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Speaker 3: on preserving amateurism and then enforcing their rules, and by

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Speaker 3: losing all these anti trust cases, they've had to completely

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Speaker 3: switch to a new model, which is, don't stop losing

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Speaker 3: precedent setting lawsuits. Be more adaptable, and that's what you're seeing.

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Speaker 3: You're seeing the NC double A be a lot more

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Speaker 3: adaptable on eligibility, certainly on NIL, which you know, we're

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Speaker 3: in the wild West, and I mean that's a completely

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Speaker 3: another topic for you for a different day. You know,

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Speaker 3: pros and cons with that. There's some sort of very

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Speaker 3: unhealthy things with NIL. But they've had to adapt to

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Speaker 3: it to a new model to reserve to preserve some

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Speaker 3: relevancy and ensures that their schools don't leave.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have another case that's going to go

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Speaker 2: through the courts. A guess we're Diego Pavia, the Vanderbilt

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Speaker 2: quarterback Heisman finalist, right, is suing because he wants to

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Speaker 2: keep playing college football. Right, and there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: athletes watching how this may unfold. Who then would go, Okay, well,

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Speaker 2: I want to come back and play college football, college basketball,

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Speaker 2: whatever it is. Given the NCAA's track record, it would

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Speaker 2: feel like he is. His legal maneuvering is going to

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Speaker 2: be successful, you would.

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Speaker 3: Think, I mean, essentially, what he's challenging is he didn't

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Speaker 3: want his junior college years, which aren't n C double A,

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Speaker 3: to count towards.

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Speaker 4: His NCUBAA eligibility.

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Speaker 3: But he didn't play this year because the NCUBA allowed

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Speaker 3: him to play, or that he got a waiver. He

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Speaker 3: played because of judge granted an injunction preventing the nc

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Speaker 3: Double A from enforcing their denial of his eligibility for

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Speaker 3: this year. N C DOUBLEA didn't, you know, fight hard

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Speaker 3: back on it. They see the writing on the wall

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Speaker 3: and they don't want to set bad precedent to you know,

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Speaker 3: further degrade their brand and you know, lose more teeth

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Speaker 3: than they've already lost. But yes, I mean, he's my

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Speaker 3: understands that he's going to the NFL. But yes, all

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Speaker 3: the other athletes are gonna watch what happens in this

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Speaker 3: lawsuit that he's not dropping and there have to believe

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Speaker 3: twelve other athletes in this lawsuit as well too. But

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Speaker 3: that's going to set a lot of precedent that will

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Speaker 3: affect a lot of JUCO players going forward.

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Speaker 2: I hear people say, well, the NCAA is so bad

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Speaker 2: at this because their basic business model is illegal. What

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Speaker 2: would a lawyer say about that.

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Speaker 4: It's it's not completely black and white.

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Speaker 3: They are trying how they do it is legal, but

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Speaker 3: they are trying to adapt to stay that way, and

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Speaker 3: they are getting challenged left and right. So it is legal,

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Speaker 3: but certain aspects of it are being challenged, particularly with eligibility,

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Speaker 3: with different types of anti trust, with compensation models.

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Speaker 4: It is legal, but it's being parts of it are

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Speaker 4: being challenged.

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Speaker 2: We basically in college sports, we you know, we have

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Speaker 2: no rules, right, and so the Wild West now it

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Speaker 2: is the NFL has rules, right. The NFL has rules

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Speaker 2: that are collectively bargained and agreed upon.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Where the players Association says, uh, well, here's what we want.

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Speaker 2: The NFL says, here what the owners want, and then

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Speaker 2: they agree to a collective bargaining agreement. It lasts, however,

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Speaker 2: many years. It's how it works in the NBA. It's

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Speaker 2: it works in Major League Baseball. We don't have that

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Speaker 2: in college sports. In the absence of collective of collective bargaining,

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Speaker 2: can the nc double A legally start to create and

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Speaker 2: in force its own set of rules to rain everything in?

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Speaker 4: Good luck?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 4: Good luck? It's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 2: Can't happen.

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Speaker 3: Everything's getting challenged. And let's be honest, there are powers

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Speaker 3: bigger than them.

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Speaker 4: Right now.

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Speaker 3: The conferences are more powerful double A. The TV TV

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Speaker 3: is more powerful, you know, Fox, ABC and CBS. They

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Speaker 3: control the money of college football, along with the Big

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Speaker 3: ten SEC and to some extent, the Big twelve and

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Speaker 3: the others. The money dictates the power, and the n

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Speaker 3: C Double A has lost a grasp of that completely.

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Speaker 2: I mean it is you know, people talk about it

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Speaker 2: like it's some governing body. The NCAA is the collection

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Speaker 2: of schools.

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Speaker 4: It's technically a nonprofit r.

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Speaker 2: So if the collection of schools got together and said, look,

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Speaker 2: he're the rules. You have four years to you have

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Speaker 2: five years to play for, which is what it used

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Speaker 2: to be five years to play for. You could transfer

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Speaker 2: once with that penalty. We're gonna put a hard cap

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Speaker 2: and what everybody can make in terms of revenue sharing,

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Speaker 2: and these are the rules. They would be completely unenforceable,

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Speaker 2: is what you're telling me.

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Speaker 4: In a lot of ways. Yes, I mean there are

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Speaker 4: some things that can be enforced.

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Speaker 3: You can't, you know, for instance, beyond your third degree,

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Speaker 3: be on your doctrine and being your ninth year. There's

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Speaker 3: gonna be limits to it. There are still some limits

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Speaker 3: to it. You're not gonna have a thirty six year

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Speaker 3: old quarterback in college football. There are still some things

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Speaker 3: that just defy logic and reasoning that that would violate

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Speaker 3: anti trust. On the other end, given that this is

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Speaker 3: still some level of amateurism, you know, quote unquote whatever's

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Speaker 3: left of that, there's still technically students and in a

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Speaker 3: lot of ways, that's how they get around being employees

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Speaker 3: and having contracts and being subject to employment law, insurance

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Speaker 3: and all of that.

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Speaker 2: How do you collectively bargain with a group of people

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Speaker 2: that's not a union.

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Speaker 3: Well, some of those some of the schools are trying

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Speaker 3: to union I some of the players are trying to

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Speaker 3: union ize. So that's there's just a lot of precedents

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Speaker 3: that hasn't been set with some of this. But it's

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Speaker 3: I don't see how you could possibly do it when

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Speaker 3: there's not a set organization like the NFL, like any

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Speaker 3: pro league. It's too fragmented in college football, in college

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Speaker 3: sports in general.

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Speaker 2: Rather, let me ask you about the Ohio University the

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Speaker 2: ex head coach at Ohio University, Brian Smith. So, in

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Speaker 2: the wake of the Sharon Moore thing, and I know

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Speaker 2: you're a Michigan guy, don't get me started, right, this

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Speaker 2: was sort of like Sharon Moore light right, Yes, where

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Speaker 2: you had the coach Bryan Smith was terminated for a cause.

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Speaker 2: And thankfully we're not talking about somebody who went on

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Speaker 2: to do something that he's now you know, under you know,

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Speaker 2: felony indictment for. But he loses his job for a

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Speaker 2: cause and the school says, well, you were having an

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Speaker 2: extra marital affair with a student at Ohio University student. So,

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Speaker 2: first of all, because I think there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: folks that know what explain make the distinction between firing

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Speaker 2: with cause and without.

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Speaker 3: Well, if you fire him with cause, he's not going

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Speaker 3: to get any of his buyout. Furthermore, you kind of

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Speaker 3: become unhireable, at least for a period of time. If

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Speaker 3: if you've got a with cause firing, that is a

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Speaker 3: big stain on your record.

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Speaker 2: With cause basically means you did something that compelled them

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Speaker 2: to fire.

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Speaker 3: In breach of your contract and compelled you to fire

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Speaker 3: you and you know, brought some disrepute to the university.

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Speaker 4: Without cause, you get your buyout.

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Speaker 3: If you're just fired for performance, the team's not performing

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Speaker 3: well enough, you get your buyout. Now he has counsel here,

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Speaker 3: he's disputing the allegations and the context of it. You

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Speaker 3: know my understanding for you know, he says that he

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Speaker 3: was in the middle of a divorce and then there

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Speaker 3: was no affair. And I'm not sure the age of

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Speaker 3: the student. I read somewhere that she was in her forties.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true or not. But and

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Speaker 3: you said there weren't going to be thirty six year

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Speaker 3: old quarterbacks, right right. But he disputes, you know, the

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Speaker 3: nuances of what he's being alleged by the university. These

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Speaker 3: cases are almost certain in a settlement of some sort. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: he'll get some sort of settlement.

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Speaker 4: Of his buyout.

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Speaker 3: He's going to want to push for it to be

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Speaker 3: without cause. Firing that's going to be the big win

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Speaker 3: for him.

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Speaker 2: So the school says, well, you were having an affair

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Speaker 2: with the student, and he says, well, you don't have

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Speaker 2: a rule against having an affair with the student.

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Speaker 4: First of all, I think there wasn't a rule against it.

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Speaker 2: Is there no rule against having a sexual relationship with

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Speaker 2: the student?

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Speaker 3: Sure, I'm sure that there is some morality clause in

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Speaker 3: his contract, and some clause that if he brings some

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Speaker 3: disrepute or you know, bad press to the university, and

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Speaker 3: I can see how it can be construed with that.

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Speaker 3: My understanding is that he was living at the university

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Speaker 3: hotel at the time until he could find, you know,

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Speaker 3: a permanent home out there, and he was seen with

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Speaker 3: her with some of the players families. There is what

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Speaker 3: I read, So I can see how it can be

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Speaker 3: argued a certain way. But there's enough gray area here

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Speaker 3: that the minds are going to meet in the middle somewhere.

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Speaker 3: Neither side wants this drug got into litigation where you know,

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Speaker 3: bad facts on both sides are coming out. People want

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Speaker 3: to move on and there'll be some sort of settlement.

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Speaker 2: I would think if this guy wants to continue coaching

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Speaker 2: at any level, that it would make sense for him

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Speaker 2: to not have some of the senior details of his

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Speaker 2: life be spilled out into the public.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely in same thing for Ohio University. You don't want

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Speaker 3: that either, you know, saying that this happened under our watch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. They also said he had booze in his office.

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Speaker 2: And if every coach that I know who's had booze

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Speaker 2: in their office, God fired, for there would be no coaches.

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Speaker 2: We wouldn't have coaches to complain about college athletics.

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Speaker 4: How about lawyers with booze in their office?

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Speaker 2: Does that happen?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 4: No, yes, radio executives not my office. Off not my office.

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Speaker 2: Well we can change that, all right. You're gonna join

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Speaker 2: me every Tuesday, every Tuesday, looking forward to it. It's

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Speaker 2: gonna be awesome. Were my questions? These were dumb questions,

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Speaker 2: I will admit this.

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Speaker 4: No, they were great questions. They were fantastic questions.

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Speaker 2: Okay, very good.

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Speaker 4: Hopefully I had decent answers. Very all right.

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Speaker 2: I learned a lot. Well, thank you very much, Minila

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Speaker 2: Law Group, Stuart Penrose. We'll see you next Tuesday. Man,

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Speaker 2: thanks so much.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Mo. It is hutswelve away from five o'clock. We'd Oakley

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Speaker 2: Greens on ESPN fifteen thirty Cincinnati Sports.

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Speaker 3: Station Cincinnati's ESPN fifteen thirty traffic.

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