WEBVTT - A Visit with Anthony Di Iorio, Ethereum Co-Founder 0:00:00.270 --> 0:00:03.030 When we mentioned the word Etherium, Who do you think 0:00:03.029 --> 0:00:07.380 of first? Most would default to Vitalik Buterin while he 0:00:07.380 --> 0:00:10.979 is the most active member from the original squad of creators. 0:00:11.220 --> 0:00:14.010 Many people don't know that he was not acting alone. 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:18.030 Gavin Wood, Charles Hoskinson and Anthony Diorio were among the 0:00:18.030 --> 0:00:22.290 group of co-founders for what's now the second biggest cryptocurrency 0:00:22.290 --> 0:00:25.140 by market cap. We had the opportunity to visit with 0:00:25.140 --> 0:00:28.710 Anthony at Puerto Rico Blockchain Week and were amazed at 0:00:28.710 --> 0:00:31.590 his passion and depth of knowledge. We think you'll be 0:00:31.590 --> 0:00:35.520 amazed too, on this Vitalik ain't the only game in town. 0:00:35.610 --> 0:00:41.170 Episode number 658. Of the Bad Crypto podcast. 0:00:41.210 --> 0:00:43.620 Five, four, three. 0:00:44.430 --> 0:00:50.529 How are all those workers whose bad? 0:01:10.660 --> 0:01:13.540 Hey, how you doing? Joel Berger, donuts here at the 0:01:13.540 --> 0:01:17.020 big crypto podcast about to bring about a boom. What's up, Travis? 0:01:17.550 --> 0:01:20.290 I just go back over there. That's nice. Joey, How 0:01:20.290 --> 0:01:20.830 you doin? 0:01:21.020 --> 0:01:23.080 That make you, Travis? Mega donuts. 0:01:23.350 --> 0:01:28.570 I got you. Travis. Travis. Back in dominance. You, Joey. Travis, 0:01:28.569 --> 0:01:31.270 Welcome to the banquet. Crypto punk gas is so bad, 0:01:31.450 --> 0:01:32.800 It's worse than when. 0:01:32.810 --> 0:01:36.130 We're bringing a bag of Ethereum today. Talking with one of 0:01:36.130 --> 0:01:40.300 the founders of the the the original. The way the, 0:01:40.330 --> 0:01:42.819 you know, said way back. Way back. A theorem goes 0:01:42.819 --> 0:01:45.490 all the way back to, what, 2015? Yeah. 0:01:46.090 --> 0:01:48.220 I mean, there's a 40 something like that way back 0:01:48.220 --> 0:01:48.940 in the day. Yeah. 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:52.690 All right. Now we're moving to the Upper West Side 0:01:52.690 --> 0:01:57.280 and going to upscale our New York accent a little bit. Yeah. 0:01:57.290 --> 0:01:58.270 So it was. 0:01:58.270 --> 0:02:01.690 This is a Joseph container of donuts. 0:02:04.330 --> 0:02:08.049 We didn't know that Anthony Di Iorio was going to be 0:02:08.050 --> 0:02:11.590 at Coinagenda, where you and I had the privilege of speaking. 0:02:11.590 --> 0:02:15.250 That's Michael Turpin's event as part of part of Puerto 0:02:15.250 --> 0:02:18.790 Rico Blockchain Week. And what a, you know, surprise and 0:02:18.790 --> 0:02:21.100 a pleasure to have an opportunity to talk to him. 0:02:21.940 --> 0:02:25.000 It was I mean, this was a real treat. And, 0:02:25.450 --> 0:02:28.149 you know, in this interview right here, he talks about 0:02:28.150 --> 0:02:31.959 the future, the past, the present, what he's working on, 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.620 the focus on, knows he's doing some really, really cool stuff. 0:02:35.860 --> 0:02:39.790 And here's a guy who saw Bitcoin really early and 0:02:39.790 --> 0:02:45.250 actually was the first money in Ethereum. So I mean, 0:02:45.610 --> 0:02:47.829 he might have he might have been the most successful 0:02:47.830 --> 0:02:51.010 person we've ever sat down with face to face. Well, 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:54.040 very happy with that, with Vitalik. But I mean, if 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:56.100 this guy was the one who put the first money in, 0:02:56.110 --> 0:02:58.900 he probably got a little bit more than Vitalik did, 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:00.919 unless they split it all up equally. I don't I 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:01.330 don't know. 0:03:02.139 --> 0:03:04.240 We sat with Vitalik, but it wasn't really face to 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:06.370 face because he doesn't like looking at people right in 0:03:06.370 --> 0:03:07.810 the eye. He's kind of, you know. 0:03:08.350 --> 0:03:10.780 But as we mentioned this when we did make him 0:03:10.780 --> 0:03:13.750 chuckle a couple of times and almost smirk, it was 0:03:13.750 --> 0:03:16.480 like this more like a side hustle that kind of 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.630 went up on that counts and that counts as a chuckle. 0:03:19.870 --> 0:03:22.419 I'll have half a smirk with a side of chortle. 0:03:24.010 --> 0:03:26.860 So also, Salat Travis is going to be creating an 0:03:26.860 --> 0:03:30.520 NFT for this. We'll tell you all about it after 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:40.260 our conversation with Anthony Di Iorio. And we are at Coinagenda 0:03:40.260 --> 0:03:43.590 Michael Turpin's event and privilege to meet one of the 0:03:43.590 --> 0:03:49.650 co-founders of Ethereum Anthony Di Iorio. Good, sir. Welcome to Bed Crypto. 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:50.520 Thanks for having me on. 0:03:50.820 --> 0:03:57.270 Yeah, man. So we interviewed Vitalik what it was ETH Denver, 2020. Yeah. 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.150 And he's he's cool kid and, you know, met his 0:04:00.150 --> 0:04:03.420 dad and had him on the show and got we 0:04:03.420 --> 0:04:04.050 made him laugh. 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:04.980 We did twice. 0:04:05.020 --> 0:04:06.030 Meet your Vitalik. 0:04:06.270 --> 0:04:06.930 It was bizarre. 0:04:06.990 --> 0:04:08.010 We made Vitalik laugh. 0:04:08.190 --> 0:04:09.570 Yeah. Yeah. It's impressive, huh? 0:04:09.990 --> 0:04:13.440 Yeah. He's hard to get chuckles out of it. 0:04:13.620 --> 0:04:15.690 Chuckles and a smirk. A slight smirk. It was like. 0:04:16.380 --> 0:04:18.870 Yeah, maybe a two. Maybe just shy of a chortle. 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:20.969 At chortle, almost. 0:04:21.270 --> 0:04:24.390 But you, on the other hand, you know, your jovial 0:04:24.390 --> 0:04:31.529 guy and your name is not the first one that 0:04:31.529 --> 0:04:34.110 comes up when we talk about Ethereum . He's kind 0:04:34.110 --> 0:04:35.790 of become the poster child. 0:04:35.790 --> 0:04:39.210 And he definitely is and has been and deservedly so, 0:04:39.210 --> 0:04:39.570 I think. 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:42.599 Okay, So so tell us, what did what did you 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.020 bring to the equation that he couldn't bring? You know, 0:04:46.020 --> 0:04:47.730 how is this dynamic duo? 0:04:48.310 --> 0:04:52.110 So I met Vitalik in 2012. I just heard about 0:04:52.110 --> 0:04:56.510 Bitcoin in the summer of 2012. And after months of 0:04:56.580 --> 0:05:00.240 not sleeping because of how much I grasped the concept, 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.289 the idea coming off of years of studying economics, coming 0:05:04.290 --> 0:05:05.609 off of trying to figure out what had happened with 0:05:05.610 --> 0:05:08.550 the housing crisis and the financial crisis of 2008 2009. 0:05:09.390 --> 0:05:12.029 Being into computers since I was since the early eighties, 0:05:12.029 --> 0:05:13.680 I was building computers when I was like seven or 0:05:13.680 --> 0:05:14.250 eight years old. 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:15.420 Nerd. 0:05:15.690 --> 0:05:20.280 Nerd. Exactly. Following a decentralized tech movement from the early 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:25.200 2000s with the Napster's and other decentralized file sharing and 0:05:26.070 --> 0:05:29.669 things like that, it all kind of culminated in 2012 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.240 with me being an entrepreneur for ten years tech background, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.140 business background, economics, studying to try to understand what had 0:05:37.140 --> 0:05:40.470 happened recently over the last few years. It was kind 0:05:40.470 --> 0:05:43.170 of a perfect storm for me to hear about Bitcoin 0:05:43.170 --> 0:05:47.430 and dive in headfirst. And I looked for a community 0:05:47.430 --> 0:05:49.589 in Toronto and there just wasn't anything there. And I said, Well, 0:05:49.860 --> 0:05:51.510 I learned in the past, if you want to, if 0:05:51.510 --> 0:05:53.280 there's nothing there, you're excited about it, start the community. 0:05:53.290 --> 0:05:56.040 So I started the Toronto Bitcoin Meetup Group in 2012 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:57.690 and he was one of like eight people that came 0:05:57.690 --> 0:05:59.730 to my first meet up, and that's how I first met. 0:05:59.820 --> 0:06:00.810 And how old was he then? 0:06:00.900 --> 0:06:04.830 He was 18, 17, 18, I think. And yeah, and, 0:06:04.830 --> 0:06:07.529 and Peter Todd showed up as well. He was there 0:06:07.529 --> 0:06:10.560 and Dino, Marc and a few other people that, that 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:13.980 then became my first connections in the space. And over 0:06:13.980 --> 0:06:17.489 the next year, Vitalik had dropped out of university. He 0:06:17.490 --> 0:06:19.440 was traveling around the world and I would meet him 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.050 in different conferences that I was representing kind of Canada, 0:06:22.050 --> 0:06:24.150 because I'd started a nonprofit in Canada called the Bitcoin 0:06:24.150 --> 0:06:26.400 Alliance of Canada. After doing the Toronto thing. 0:06:26.550 --> 0:06:27.870 I'm not even heard one, eh? 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.630 Yeah. Wouldn't it be the Bitcoin Alliance? Eh? 0:06:31.020 --> 0:06:33.300 Well, I try to remove filler words from the conversations. 0:06:33.300 --> 0:06:34.440 They don't add much value. That's what. 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:35.490 That's what I try. 0:06:35.490 --> 0:06:35.880 To do that. 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:36.480 Travis. 0:06:36.990 --> 0:06:42.390 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I over the next year he 0:06:42.390 --> 0:06:44.250 was writing a lot for Bitcoin magazine. He was doing 0:06:44.250 --> 0:06:46.410 stories on what I was doing in Canada, trying to 0:06:46.710 --> 0:06:50.220 bring people together there and kind of work with media 0:06:50.220 --> 0:06:52.799 and work with government to showcase how this is a 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.799 possibility and opportunity for Canadians to take hold of something 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:57.000 that I think would be really it was going to 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.850 be really big and bigger than the Internet, and we 0:06:59.850 --> 0:07:02.489 built a good relationship over that next year. I was 0:07:02.490 --> 0:07:04.830 building wallets at the time, this was early 2013. I 0:07:04.830 --> 0:07:08.550 started a company called Crypto Kit and which eventually became Jack's, 0:07:08.550 --> 0:07:11.430 which is what I run right now as a non-custodial wallet. 0:07:11.910 --> 0:07:16.350 And through that year of getting to know him, understanding 0:07:16.650 --> 0:07:18.150 was he was getting to be a better writer, writing 0:07:18.150 --> 0:07:21.930 for Bitcoin magazine and really evolving and going project to 0:07:21.930 --> 0:07:24.810 project throughout the world and understanding where the limitations were. 0:07:24.810 --> 0:07:26.670 And that's where he kind of put it all together 0:07:26.670 --> 0:07:28.350 and came up with this white paper that he showed 0:07:28.350 --> 0:07:32.580 me in end of October, I think it was end 0:07:32.580 --> 0:07:36.090 of October and November 2013. He was the first I 0:07:36.090 --> 0:07:37.410 was the first person to show the white paper to. 0:07:38.460 --> 0:07:41.429 I then proceeded to kind of validate what he was 0:07:41.430 --> 0:07:43.830 doing by showing it to Charles Hoskinson, who I'd gone 0:07:43.830 --> 0:07:45.300 to know because he was doing some work for the 0:07:45.300 --> 0:07:48.510 Bitcoin Foundation on the educational side and me doing what 0:07:48.510 --> 0:07:50.480 I was doing in Canada, him doing that, we'd connected, 0:07:51.060 --> 0:07:54.240 I showed him the paper, connected him with italic and 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.930 three of us, along with Mihai Alexei, who was a 0:07:56.960 --> 0:08:00.900 46 partner of Bitcoin magazine, and and Mihai Asiri and 0:08:00.900 --> 0:08:03.960 Amir Chhetri, another gentleman who had worked on colored coins 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:05.970 and was one of the initial people there. The five 0:08:05.970 --> 0:08:08.820 of us became the initial team. And because I was 0:08:08.820 --> 0:08:12.180 in Toronto and setting up a physical location called Bitcoin Decentral, 0:08:12.690 --> 0:08:15.690 which was a place where I could start hosting my 0:08:15.690 --> 0:08:18.090 meet ups in a place that I ran instead of 0:08:18.090 --> 0:08:20.070 doing it at restaurants and bars and things like that. 0:08:20.550 --> 0:08:24.450 So at my place, Bitcoin Central became the first offices 0:08:24.450 --> 0:08:27.960 of of a theory and the exit that I had 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.220 in Bitcoin in early 2013 became the funding mechanism which 0:08:32.220 --> 0:08:34.770 I brought to the table, which was leading up to 0:08:34.770 --> 0:08:38.080 the Crowdsale. Many months later I. Provided the funding to 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:41.050 keep it internal, not have to go out to VCs, 0:08:41.590 --> 0:08:43.630 make sure that we were doing things, borrowed money from 0:08:43.630 --> 0:08:45.189 my dad to keep to keep it going when the 0:08:45.190 --> 0:08:48.340 prices kind of tanked and Bitcoin Joe Lubin came in 0:08:48.340 --> 0:08:51.339 after that and actually contributed more funding leading up for 0:08:51.340 --> 0:08:51.640 the crowd. 0:08:51.730 --> 0:08:54.790 So the crowd sounds like a nickel, right, or something? 0:08:55.030 --> 0:08:56.710 Well, it was about $0.27, I think is what it 0:08:56.710 --> 0:08:59.589 was initially. It was it was 120 ether for one 0:08:59.590 --> 0:09:02.890 Bitcoin was the the thing and and the thing that 0:09:02.890 --> 0:09:05.110 when I brought in Charles brought in Joe brought in 0:09:05.110 --> 0:09:08.020 Amir brought four of the initial eight founders because we 0:09:08.020 --> 0:09:11.469 expanded from 5 to 8 adding Joseph Lubin adding Gavin 0:09:11.470 --> 0:09:16.840 Wood and adding Jeffrey Wilkie was the you know we 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.580 weren't the developers. We were the more of the how 0:09:18.580 --> 0:09:19.959 do we do this right to make sure that it's 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:22.630 done in a way that we can raise this capital 0:09:22.630 --> 0:09:24.400 from as many people around the world as possible that 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.199 want to participate but not have to be concerned about 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.210 it being a security offering in the in the US. 0:09:28.210 --> 0:09:29.770 And that's what we spent a lot of time figuring 0:09:29.770 --> 0:09:31.930 out and getting off the ground so that it could 0:09:31.929 --> 0:09:33.729 be handed over to the developers to take it from there. 0:09:33.730 --> 0:09:36.280 And that's kind of where you saw the the exodus 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.820 of of those people that did the initial set up, 0:09:39.820 --> 0:09:42.400 making sure things were done properly. And then Joe went 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.989 into consensus. Charles Amir were out and they ended up 0:09:46.990 --> 0:09:49.870 doing their things. I went and continue to build wallets 0:09:49.870 --> 0:09:51.609 for the space, which is what I wanted to do, 0:09:51.610 --> 0:09:54.010 including a theory in wallets and Bitcoin wallets and all that. 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:57.280 But that was my contribution, was a lot of the structure, 0:09:57.280 --> 0:10:00.010 the initial funding, the planning to make sure that what 0:10:00.010 --> 0:10:02.920 we did wouldn't have any consequences down the road because 0:10:03.550 --> 0:10:05.679 if we had gone the full on developer the way 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:07.599 they wanted to do things, we would have done the 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.530 crowdsale right the beginning and we probably wouldn't be, um, 0:10:11.710 --> 0:10:14.410 it wouldn't be a situation where Ethereum would be where 0:10:14.410 --> 0:10:16.000 it is right now. You maybe would have ended up 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.069 more of a ripple situation or something else. So we 0:10:18.070 --> 0:10:19.570 had to do things properly and we offered a lot 0:10:19.570 --> 0:10:21.100 of the guidance to make sure that it got done 0:10:21.100 --> 0:10:21.730 right initially. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:24.550 So what would you how would you recommend now to 0:10:24.550 --> 0:10:26.890 someone who is coming in the space and saying, wow, 0:10:27.309 --> 0:10:30.010 you know, we got these security offerings? How do you 0:10:30.010 --> 0:10:31.479 stay out of those? Some of those? Right. Because it 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.099 was a totally different beast back in 2014, 13, 15, Right. 0:10:35.110 --> 0:10:38.020 When you guys were launching, you guys were launching Ethereum. 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:39.460 And now a lot of people are trying to do 0:10:39.460 --> 0:10:42.309 stuff and they go, Well, how is it not a security? 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.430 Some cryptos are saying the you know, the the agencies, 0:10:45.429 --> 0:10:48.939 as is every crypto is a security except maybe Bitcoin, Right? 0:10:49.210 --> 0:10:51.760 Maybe even more so now, since Ethereum is a proof 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.429 of stake more than than before. So what maybe what 0:10:54.429 --> 0:10:56.109 advice would you give people who are like who are 0:10:56.110 --> 0:10:58.900 thinking about launching a coin? Because you guys did this 0:10:58.900 --> 0:11:01.960 in a very solid way to make sure that you 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:04.599 guys protected yourself and protected the assets of what you 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:05.230 guys were building? 0:11:05.380 --> 0:11:07.120 I think it's well, coming up with a project and 0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:08.800 what you want to accomplish first and then if it's 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.050 COIN figures out on how the token economics could actually 0:11:11.050 --> 0:11:12.949 be something that's going to be really bringing that utility 0:11:12.950 --> 0:11:15.010 to the plate. And it makes sense. And it actually 0:11:15.010 --> 0:11:19.630 is done in a structure that, you know, isn't looked 0:11:19.630 --> 0:11:22.300 as something as any type of investment. Right. And I 0:11:22.300 --> 0:11:24.340 can tell you what I'm doing right now, which is 0:11:24.340 --> 0:11:27.720 I'm doing a similar model to what we did with 0:11:27.730 --> 0:11:30.520 a theorem, but I'm actually selling hardware now and I'm 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:34.420 selling product. The theorem was a product. We at the 0:11:34.420 --> 0:11:36.280 end of the day, the structure that we put together 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:40.120 was it was a necessity to fuel a smart contract platform. 0:11:40.570 --> 0:11:44.410 It was a it was needed. It was never envisioned 0:11:44.410 --> 0:11:47.410 as an investment. It was a product that we sold 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.490 in a pre-sale purchase to those that wanted to participate. 0:11:51.820 --> 0:11:54.189 And a year later, the technology came forward. So you 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:55.660 got to make sure that the tech comes forward to 0:11:55.670 --> 0:11:57.040 make sure that it's ready to go and make sure 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.740 that it's not something that's as an aside to what 0:11:59.740 --> 0:12:01.630 it is you're doing, and I think that's why we 0:12:01.630 --> 0:12:03.610 kind of put it all together properly in a way 0:12:03.610 --> 0:12:05.980 that if you were to do it the same way, 0:12:05.980 --> 0:12:09.520 I'm not sure would still be the acceptable because we 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.370 were in fact taking Bitcoin saying, We're going to give 0:12:12.370 --> 0:12:15.910 you ether here. But the ether was something that is 0:12:15.910 --> 0:12:19.750 is required on the platform which we did build and 0:12:19.750 --> 0:12:21.700 put out to the world. And I think that's why 0:12:21.700 --> 0:12:25.210 it's it's it's not been looked at in that fashion. 0:12:25.210 --> 0:12:27.609 And we had to make sure that what you're phrasing is, 0:12:27.610 --> 0:12:29.470 is this is a product, this is not an investment. 0:12:29.470 --> 0:12:31.030 We're not selling you anything. It has a return on it. 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.730 So if you can match together a number of different 0:12:33.730 --> 0:12:38.170 things that you're selling product, you're selling something physical, you 0:12:38.170 --> 0:12:41.949 don't even talk about the price of this or focus 0:12:41.950 --> 0:12:43.660 on getting on exchanges things. Are there a lot of 0:12:43.660 --> 0:12:47.439 things you can do to to to negate the the 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:50.500 the things that may look like it's it's something that's 0:12:50.500 --> 0:12:52.719 more of an investment for people and it comes down 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:54.700 to utility and it comes down to the structures and 0:12:54.700 --> 0:12:58.630 it comes down to what you're you're promising and what 0:12:58.630 --> 0:13:01.210 you're doing, even the terminology you're using for things like that, 0:13:01.210 --> 0:13:02.949 that I think is a safer way to do things. 0:13:03.220 --> 0:13:07.060 Did you ever imagine that, you know, you knew you're 0:13:07.059 --> 0:13:09.550 creating a platform for smart contracts, but did you ever 0:13:09.550 --> 0:13:14.050 envision this whole Nonfungible token niche that would rise out 0:13:14.050 --> 0:13:18.070 of this API? There's going to be you forget just 0:13:18.070 --> 0:13:20.530 the basics of, Hey, we're going to put art on 0:13:20.530 --> 0:13:27.370 the blockchain board. Apes Cryptopunks this whole cycle that just happened, 0:13:27.370 --> 0:13:28.569 that was insane. 0:13:30.059 --> 0:13:34.260 The things like I mean, there's there's a number of 0:13:34.260 --> 0:13:36.840 things that emerge because of a theorem, including Nfts and 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:41.640 including Daos Dao specifically, which is to me going to 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.140 be one of the and it continues to be a 0:13:43.140 --> 0:13:46.140 really hot item moving forward. There was a big battle 0:13:46.140 --> 0:13:48.750 to not turn ourselves into a DAO back in 2014. 0:13:48.780 --> 0:13:50.250 There were members of the team that wanted us to 0:13:50.250 --> 0:13:53.430 be a DAO right off the bat and we always 0:13:53.429 --> 0:13:55.200 equated it to people that didn't want to do that 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.590 was Imagine Satoshi doing smart contracts with Bitcoin is just 0:13:58.590 --> 0:14:01.320 not ready for that. Let's focus on one thing. So yes, 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:03.570 we did think about NFT, we did think about Daos, 0:14:03.570 --> 0:14:05.400 we did think about all these things. Now, not necessarily 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.640 whether we're going to go to this extreme, but we 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:10.830 talked about that stuff. We talked about how if we 0:14:10.830 --> 0:14:14.160 could decentralize our whole organization in a fashion that doesn't 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.230 have a jurisdiction, doesn't have this and that, that we 0:14:16.230 --> 0:14:19.350 could maybe do something, but that would have been a disaster. 0:14:19.350 --> 0:14:20.700 I think these things, a lot of them are not 0:14:20.700 --> 0:14:23.400 primetime ready to do and you got to go sequentially. 0:14:23.700 --> 0:14:26.550 So I think these things will provide like a lot 0:14:26.550 --> 0:14:29.070 of them are not providing much value, I think, right now. 0:14:29.070 --> 0:14:31.229 And there's a lot of learning lessons that need to 0:14:31.230 --> 0:14:34.110 be figured out over the next few years with everything 0:14:34.110 --> 0:14:37.830 from from NetEase the defi to all these things. But 0:14:37.890 --> 0:14:39.660 yeah you just we talked about you. 0:14:39.660 --> 0:14:42.300 And you talked about in Gavin. Yeah in Charles and 0:14:42.300 --> 0:14:45.270 Vitalik you're all hanging out and going so imagine what 0:14:45.270 --> 0:14:47.640 people can do with this one day they're going to 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:49.560 make these cats and people are going to be able 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.170 to breed these cats. Cats are going to have sex 0:14:52.170 --> 0:14:55.770 and they're going to make more cats as nfts like that. 0:14:55.770 --> 0:14:56.340 That's not. 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.710 Well, our mind wasn't on that type of thing or. 0:14:58.770 --> 0:14:59.280 No, you're. 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.020 And how can we exist at all? What we had 0:15:01.020 --> 0:15:03.480 to have that sophistication. And I think that was really 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.340 the contributions that maybe a lot in the Ethereum ecosystem 0:15:08.340 --> 0:15:10.740 which turned very developer focus, which I think is a 0:15:10.740 --> 0:15:12.630 really positive thing, and I think that's the direction it 0:15:12.630 --> 0:15:14.790 needed to go. But it did need a lot of 0:15:14.790 --> 0:15:18.960 the preparation and the the knowledge and understanding of the 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.900 way things worked and worked then and need to work 0:15:21.900 --> 0:15:23.550 in order to get to the end game of what 0:15:23.550 --> 0:15:26.430 you want. So our focus was really on how do 0:15:26.430 --> 0:15:27.420 we do this in a way that we're going to 0:15:27.420 --> 0:15:28.420 stay out of jail, How do we do it in 0:15:28.420 --> 0:15:29.520 the way that's going to get it out there? How 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.290 do we create as many stakeholders as possible what we're 0:15:31.290 --> 0:15:33.150 doing that we're not limited to, what we can't do 0:15:33.150 --> 0:15:34.920 it in the US because we're doing this kind of thing. 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:37.170 So we put that formula together and I think it 0:15:37.170 --> 0:15:37.739 worked really well. 0:15:38.670 --> 0:15:41.820 It's fascinating when you think about you said, you know, 0:15:41.820 --> 0:15:44.490 one Bitcoin would get you 2000 ether and that was 0:15:44.490 --> 0:15:47.160 your product at the point, right? That was because these 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:50.220 tokens are going to be built and used in our ecosystem. 0:15:50.220 --> 0:15:52.410 Have them in your wallet when we set up, your 0:15:52.410 --> 0:15:54.750 wallet will be filled with what you bought. And then 0:15:54.750 --> 0:15:56.700 these are going to be useful for when you want 0:15:56.700 --> 0:15:59.100 to be able to execute on the platform, to use 0:15:59.100 --> 0:16:02.430 the services and and use the resources that people are 0:16:02.430 --> 0:16:05.250 putting in so that you can execute your contracts and 0:16:05.250 --> 0:16:05.700 your code. 0:16:05.970 --> 0:16:07.770 Is worded so perfectly. I mean, that's a such a 0:16:07.770 --> 0:16:11.520 smart thing. So when you're talking about smart contracts, like what? 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.130 How do you define that? Because we're kind of looking 0:16:14.130 --> 0:16:17.580 at things like, you know, with with crypto and smart contracts, 0:16:17.580 --> 0:16:20.729 that's programmable money, It's programmable. You can do all kinds 0:16:20.730 --> 0:16:23.310 of if this then that like there's so much more. 0:16:23.310 --> 0:16:26.190 Smart endless possibilities beyond finance is what I kind of 0:16:26.190 --> 0:16:28.320 saw it with that is that Bitcoin was the be 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:29.610 all and end all at the time. That's what I 0:16:29.610 --> 0:16:32.280 got into it for. And then the realization that this 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.130 can spread beyond finance because a lot of the financial 0:16:35.130 --> 0:16:36.840 stuff that even was trying to be done on Bitcoin 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.510 couldn't be done. And that's where it needed something like 0:16:39.530 --> 0:16:42.090 an executable smart contract layer in order to go on there, 0:16:42.090 --> 0:16:43.470 in order to to carry that stuff out. But then 0:16:43.470 --> 0:16:47.640 you start thinking legal contracts, you start thinking the sports betting, 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.620 you start all these other elements like, Wow, this is 0:16:49.620 --> 0:16:51.780 not just finance. This is going to be impactful for 0:16:51.780 --> 0:16:54.750 any type of removal of third party non value added 0:16:54.750 --> 0:16:57.630 participation in the in the equation that can just be 0:16:57.630 --> 0:17:00.480 put into code. And that's why it's impactful in so 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:01.350 many different sectors. 0:17:03.620 --> 0:17:08.359 So there's definitely concern in some circles about Etherium going 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:12.709 to proof of stake that there are certain corporate interests 0:17:12.710 --> 0:17:19.310 or government interests that could somehow have 51% and thus 0:17:19.310 --> 0:17:22.690 be able to take over the chain and sensor the chain. 0:17:22.700 --> 0:17:26.240 And I mean, we're kind of we're seeing some things 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:30.649 happening that are definitely anti privacy. For example, Metamask announcing 0:17:30.650 --> 0:17:32.970 that they're going to be tracking IPRs. 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.830 In Furia because they use Metamask using for in Fury. 0:17:36.950 --> 0:17:40.580 Right. So, you know, what are your thoughts? Is it 0:17:40.580 --> 0:17:47.240 possible that Ethereum could fall to forces that would seek 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:48.980 to control the stake? 0:17:49.730 --> 0:17:52.340 I think that the promise to go to proof of 0:17:52.340 --> 0:17:54.770 stake was from day one. That was always the promise. 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:57.169 The difficulty of all that was put in place in 0:17:57.170 --> 0:18:00.290 order to to ensure that miners knew that eventually that 0:18:00.290 --> 0:18:02.600 would happen. Was there from day one, even though it's 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:07.130 been passed along and it's had not actually, it's been pushed, 0:18:07.130 --> 0:18:09.920 pushed along year after year to not go off. And 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:11.540 the difficulty by for those who don't know it was 0:18:11.540 --> 0:18:15.680 that there was a there was a because the goal 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:17.060 was always to go to proof of stake when it 0:18:17.060 --> 0:18:21.080 was ready. There was a bomb put into the code 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.479 that would explode and make it so difficult to mine 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:29.210 using traditional assets I'm sorry, using traditional GPUs that it 0:18:29.210 --> 0:18:31.520 would be like prepare for the next thing. Don't think 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:32.900 that you're going to be able to do this forever. 0:18:33.230 --> 0:18:35.900 And that was from day one. So then when it's ready, 0:18:35.900 --> 0:18:37.820 which was many, many, many years later, they made the 0:18:37.820 --> 0:18:40.010 decision that it's ready to go to proof of stake. 0:18:40.490 --> 0:18:43.190 But now, could it be argued there's a more centralization 0:18:43.190 --> 0:18:46.310 that's happening now because many of the exchanges and entities 0:18:46.310 --> 0:18:50.720 like Leto have so much control. It's actually is I 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.960 don't think, A, there are challenges and there are risks. 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:55.609 And I'm not sure how it's going to work out. 0:18:56.060 --> 0:18:58.100 But I do think there's more centralization that has been 0:18:58.100 --> 0:19:01.340 that has happened due to it. But there's tradeoffs with everything. 0:19:01.340 --> 0:19:03.500 And I'm not a by any means a device of 0:19:03.710 --> 0:19:06.260 one black and white person. There's some things in the 0:19:06.260 --> 0:19:09.649