1 00:00:00,420 --> 00:00:03,239 Joel Comm: A long time ago in a galaxy pretty much identical 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,750 Joel Comm: to this one. Some pointy headed nerds built the foundation 3 00:00:06,750 --> 00:00:09,750 Joel Comm: of the Internet. One of those pointy headed nerds was 4 00:00:09,750 --> 00:00:13,829 Joel Comm: the CEO of Mozilla, a co-founder of the Firefox browser 5 00:00:13,830 --> 00:00:17,700 Joel Comm: and the creator of JavaScript. Today, he is the creator 6 00:00:17,700 --> 00:00:21,599 Joel Comm: of the Brave Browser, a wonderful privacy based alternative to 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,570 Joel Comm: Chrome and the rest of the corporate browsers. His name 8 00:00:24,570 --> 00:00:27,330 Joel Comm: is Brendan Eich and he joins us to discuss the 9 00:00:27,330 --> 00:00:30,570 Joel Comm: early days of the web, the mess that he helped 10 00:00:30,570 --> 00:00:33,390 Joel Comm: create and how he is helping to clean it up 11 00:00:33,390 --> 00:00:37,320 Joel Comm: and lead us into a decentralized web3 world. Join us 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,860 Joel Comm: for a discussion with this brave legend on our Pioneers. 13 00:00:40,890 --> 00:00:47,220 Joel Comm: Get all the heroes. Episode number 653. Of the Bad 14 00:00:47,220 --> 00:00:48,300 Joel Comm: Crypto podcast. 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:57,870 UU: 503000 What do I do? Who's Bad? 16 00:01:17,310 --> 00:01:18,929 Joel Comm: Greetings, Brave. 17 00:01:19,140 --> 00:01:23,280 Joel Comm: Journey Men and Journey Women and Journey Persons And Journey 18 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,210 Joel Comm: is a really good band. Even like after Steve Perry, 19 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,190 Joel Comm: it's a bad crypto podcast show for the crypto curious 20 00:01:29,190 --> 00:01:33,030 Joel Comm: and the crypto serious that is brave the Lord. Travis Right. 21 00:01:33,030 --> 00:01:36,630 Joel Comm: And I am also brave. So Lord Joel, calm and 22 00:01:36,630 --> 00:01:38,880 Joel Comm: you are brave. Fill in the blank. 23 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,450 Travis Wright: Mm hmm. And Joel's just a city boy born and 24 00:01:42,450 --> 00:01:47,880 Travis Wright: raised in New Chicago. Very nice. This. This is a 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,330 Travis Wright: fun episode, guys. I mean, long time coming on this one. 26 00:01:51,750 --> 00:01:55,290 Travis Wright: I don't know which all. I have a conversation after 27 00:01:55,290 --> 00:02:00,150 Travis Wright: we interviewed Brendon, and we were like, Hmm, who is 28 00:02:00,150 --> 00:02:05,040 Travis Wright: comparable to this guy? Right? This guy essentially was one 29 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,290 Travis Wright: of the guys who helped build the browser the way 30 00:02:07,290 --> 00:02:11,070 Travis Wright: we know it, right? I mean, he invented JavaScript. He 31 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:15,030 Travis Wright: he was really early in Netscape, which Netscape was an 32 00:02:15,030 --> 00:02:18,390 Travis Wright: evolution of Mosaic, which was the very first that I 33 00:02:18,389 --> 00:02:22,680 Travis Wright: know of. Right. And then went on to create Mozilla Firefox. 34 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,600 Travis Wright: And then, I mean, embrace this. This is an Internet legend. 35 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,890 Travis Wright: He's a pioneer of Web one, Web two and now 36 00:02:31,889 --> 00:02:33,900 Travis Wright: Web three. And we got him all that crypto and 37 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:35,070 Travis Wright: we're bringing him to you. 38 00:02:36,020 --> 00:02:38,640 Joel Comm: And what's really interesting about it is you discover some 39 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,500 Joel Comm: of the mistakes he made along the way that was 40 00:02:40,500 --> 00:02:45,119 Joel Comm: kind of oops, especially as it came to tracking people's 41 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:49,019 Joel Comm: behavior and how that turned into a really bad thing. 42 00:02:49,020 --> 00:02:51,660 Joel Comm: But then he talks about what he's doing to fix it. 43 00:02:51,810 --> 00:02:54,030 Joel Comm: I think you guys are really going to enjoy this 44 00:02:54,030 --> 00:03:01,620 Joel Comm: here discussion with the one and only. Brendan, I. It's 45 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:05,609 Joel Comm: been more than a hot minute since we have talked 46 00:03:05,610 --> 00:03:08,670 Joel Comm: about the brave browser. And in fact, we've been talking 47 00:03:08,669 --> 00:03:11,550 Joel Comm: about the brave browser for five and five years, I 48 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:15,720 Joel Comm: would say, of hot minutes as a alternative to using 49 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,640 Joel Comm: evil Google Chrome on your your computer. If you want 50 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,400 Joel Comm: to keep your data in your privacy is the way 51 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,310 Joel Comm: to go. This is not a paid advertisement. This is 52 00:03:26,310 --> 00:03:32,489 Joel Comm: not a commercial. This is actual recommendations because we use brave, 53 00:03:32,490 --> 00:03:35,190 Joel Comm: we like it. And what really excites us is today 54 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:40,140 Joel Comm: we have the CEO and co-founder of Brave, Brendan Eich 55 00:03:40,140 --> 00:03:42,150 Joel Comm: is joining us right now. And we're going to talk 56 00:03:42,150 --> 00:03:45,270 Joel Comm: about all kinds of things. Brendan, welcome to the Bad 57 00:03:45,270 --> 00:03:46,350 Joel Comm: Crypto podcast. 58 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:46,950 Brendan Eich: Don't forget that. 59 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,610 Travis Wright: Yes, the Netscape thing, that Mozilla thing, but most important, 60 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:51,930 Travis Wright: micro unity. 61 00:03:52,230 --> 00:03:56,940 Joel Comm: Yeah, he's he's got quite a background. You were the CTO, 62 00:03:56,940 --> 00:04:01,350 Joel Comm: then CEO of Mozilla and you helped launch the Firefox 63 00:04:01,350 --> 00:04:05,370 Joel Comm: browser and you're also the inventor of JavaScript, which is 64 00:04:05,370 --> 00:04:09,060 Joel Comm: the world's most popular programming language. So you know, that 65 00:04:09,060 --> 00:04:12,180 Joel Comm: little thing happened. And then of course you founded the 66 00:04:12,180 --> 00:04:16,529 Joel Comm: brave browser. So why, why found brave? Go ahead and 67 00:04:16,529 --> 00:04:20,490 Joel Comm: tell us your reasons, especially after having launched a successful 68 00:04:20,490 --> 00:04:23,370 Joel Comm: browser and Firefox that you thought we need brave. 69 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,880 Brendan Eich: Right. So when we did Firefox, we were not as 70 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,600 Brendan Eich: conscious about privacy as we are now. And we did 71 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,210 Brendan Eich: this search deal with Google, which at the time was 72 00:04:35,210 --> 00:04:39,200 Brendan Eich: a great search engine. It hadn't become a big alphabet 73 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,490 Brendan Eich: company full of all sorts of different businesses. That all 74 00:04:43,490 --> 00:04:46,610 Brendan Eich: seemed to be lost. Leaders for the ad exchange business, 75 00:04:46,610 --> 00:04:49,850 Brendan Eich: which is the main revenue leg of Google. We also 76 00:04:50,180 --> 00:04:55,549 Brendan Eich: and in Firefox, we let the privacy conscious users do 77 00:04:55,550 --> 00:04:58,970 Brendan Eich: all extensions for themselves and then grow those extensions. We 78 00:04:58,970 --> 00:05:01,789 Brendan Eich: called them add ons back in the day. So when 79 00:05:01,790 --> 00:05:04,700 Brendan Eich: I left was I sat for a long time thinking 80 00:05:04,700 --> 00:05:08,210 Brendan Eich: about two big problems. One is that browsers, if it 81 00:05:08,210 --> 00:05:10,730 Brendan Eich: gets access successful, tend to be captured by a big 82 00:05:10,730 --> 00:05:13,370 Brendan Eich: tech company, like a search company, which is really an 83 00:05:13,370 --> 00:05:17,599 Brendan Eich: ad exchange like Google or in the nineties by an 84 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,690 Brendan Eich: operating system company, which is really a word in Excel. 85 00:05:20,900 --> 00:05:25,370 Brendan Eich: The Sweet Company that was Microsoft. And I also wanted 86 00:05:25,370 --> 00:05:30,049 Brendan Eich: to help users have a direct say in not only 87 00:05:30,050 --> 00:05:34,460 Brendan Eich: their privacy but sort of economics on the Web and users, 88 00:05:34,460 --> 00:05:39,260 Brendan Eich: if they're just eyeballs to be counted in favor of, 89 00:05:39,260 --> 00:05:43,760 Brendan Eich: you know, ad traffic or ad revenue, they're not treated 90 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,210 Brendan Eich: as as first parties or principals in the economics. They're 91 00:05:47,210 --> 00:05:51,520 Brendan Eich: just kind of. Farm animals that get sheared of wool 92 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,360 Brendan Eich: every spring and shiver. And that's how people in the 93 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,020 Brendan Eich: nineties talked about our users. They were eyeballs. You are 94 00:05:59,020 --> 00:06:03,850 Brendan Eich: monetizing eyeballs. User attention was creating a new data economy. 95 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,490 Brendan Eich: Data was the new oil, which is a nonsense statement 96 00:06:06,490 --> 00:06:09,580 Brendan Eich: of our third one. And with Brave, I wanted to 97 00:06:09,580 --> 00:06:11,979 Brendan Eich: do something that was much more direct. It put users 98 00:06:11,980 --> 00:06:17,080 Brendan Eich: directly in the revenue share for private ads if they wanted. 99 00:06:17,290 --> 00:06:20,890 Brendan Eich: It allowed them to directly transact on blockchains with other 100 00:06:20,890 --> 00:06:24,940 Brendan Eich: parties to send money to. You all support your favorite YouTuber. So, 101 00:06:24,940 --> 00:06:29,740 Brendan Eich: you know, being disintermediated, being creator, economy, that's what was 102 00:06:29,740 --> 00:06:32,710 Brendan Eich: on my mind. And to do both of those things, 103 00:06:32,710 --> 00:06:38,560 Brendan Eich: privacy and I would say direct economic user first participation 104 00:06:38,890 --> 00:06:45,100 Brendan Eich: required thinking about how to marry cryptocurrencies and security including privacy. 105 00:06:46,089 --> 00:06:48,370 Travis Wright: Right. So, you know, it's always been fascinating. You know, 106 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,770 Travis Wright: being in Joe and I have both been in the 107 00:06:50,770 --> 00:06:53,710 Travis Wright: Internet since the beginning, really. I mean, Joel was one 108 00:06:53,710 --> 00:06:56,320 Travis Wright: of the first, what, 10,000 websites that was created or 109 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,620 Travis Wright: something like that with with World Village. I got online 110 00:06:59,620 --> 00:07:03,250 Travis Wright: in 96 and I've been paying attention to things. And so, 111 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:06,520 Travis Wright: you know, I remember AOL buying Netscape. I remember when 112 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,810 Travis Wright: when when Bill Gates didn't even think that Netflix and 113 00:07:09,910 --> 00:07:13,480 Travis Wright: Netscape was even something to be concerned about, and they 114 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,300 Travis Wright: didn't even have a browser yet. So these are these 115 00:07:16,300 --> 00:07:20,080 Travis Wright: are yeah, this is really early on. So you're you're 116 00:07:20,470 --> 00:07:23,380 Travis Wright: you're really early on in Web one. I would almost 117 00:07:23,380 --> 00:07:26,980 Travis Wright: say you were in Web point five right through Mosaic 118 00:07:27,220 --> 00:07:30,820 Travis Wright: became net Netscape. I keep want to say Netflix. If 119 00:07:30,820 --> 00:07:33,850 Travis Wright: I say Netflix just mad me, it's not intentional. So 120 00:07:33,850 --> 00:07:37,540 Travis Wright: it's like, what? What did that really early internet sorta 121 00:07:37,540 --> 00:07:39,850 Travis Wright: teach you? Because you were like the chief architect. You 122 00:07:39,850 --> 00:07:43,630 Travis Wright: were building stuff really early with, with with Netscape. So 123 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:47,080 Travis Wright: how did that sort of forming and, and, and maybe 124 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,930 Travis Wright: how did that get in the JavaScript? Because you create, 125 00:07:50,140 --> 00:07:53,860 Travis Wright: you build some really kickass foundational things for the Internet 126 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:57,040 Travis Wright: that we all use today. Many of us probably take 127 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:57,760 Travis Wright: that for granted. 128 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,030 Brendan Eich: Well, thank you. As you mentioned, I was at my 129 00:08:01,030 --> 00:08:02,950 Brendan Eich: community one more year than I should have been, so 130 00:08:02,950 --> 00:08:04,960 Brendan Eich: I missed the founding of Netscape. I came in the 131 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,760 Brendan Eich: second year pretty much second chronological year of age, and 132 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,570 Brendan Eich: I did JavaScript in a big hurry because it wasn't 133 00:08:13,570 --> 00:08:18,160 Brendan Eich: clear with Java, the Big Brother language from Sun to 134 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,250 Brendan Eich: people at Netscape and to most people at Sun that 135 00:08:21,250 --> 00:08:25,960 Brendan Eich: we needed JavaScript. But Marc Andreessen of Netscape and Bill 136 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,750 Brendan Eich: Joy of Sun and I argued that we did for 137 00:08:28,750 --> 00:08:32,290 Brendan Eich: the same reason that Microsoft had Visual Basic as well 138 00:08:32,290 --> 00:08:34,930 Brendan Eich: as Visual C++ and its stack. So you had one 139 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,680 Brendan Eich: scripting language that was dynamic and easier to use for 140 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,829 Brendan Eich: a great number of people to use to glue things together, 141 00:08:41,830 --> 00:08:45,370 Brendan Eich: build apps, patch things. And you had a more expert 142 00:08:45,370 --> 00:08:49,000 Brendan Eich: language for the component builders. So that was the idea 143 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,900 Brendan Eich: behind JavaScript. But to just recapture the feeling of the 144 00:08:52,900 --> 00:08:56,620 Brendan Eich: early web web one days, the PC was dominant. We 145 00:08:56,620 --> 00:08:59,079 Brendan Eich: all sat in front of big bottle monitors. We played 146 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:04,310 Brendan Eich: Quake right after Doom. We were on Lands. We we 147 00:09:04,330 --> 00:09:08,890 Brendan Eich: didn't necessarily have great home Internet connectivity. AOL had City 148 00:09:09,309 --> 00:09:12,280 Brendan Eich: bombed the country to get people online through dial up 149 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,100 Brendan Eich: and people were starting to get faster, you know, the 150 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,010 Brendan Eich: street multi-tool and whatever it's called. 151 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,290 Travis Wright: I found one of those recently, by the way. I 152 00:09:20,290 --> 00:09:22,900 Travis Wright: found an old floppy disk where I was like, Oh 153 00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:25,120 Travis Wright: my God, this one is super early. 154 00:09:25,990 --> 00:09:27,819 Brendan Eich: But one of the things this meant was you had 155 00:09:27,820 --> 00:09:30,730 Brendan Eich: to be your own system administrator of your home PC, 156 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,100 Brendan Eich: and that was hard for people. But it was good 157 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:36,640 Brendan Eich: in the sense that you didn't just rent the device 158 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,510 Brendan Eich: from an Apple or Google and they treated it like theirs. 159 00:09:40,510 --> 00:09:42,790 Brendan Eich: And you were just the sheep to share of a wall. 160 00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:45,670 Brendan Eich: Like I said earlier, you really were a participant. You 161 00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:49,870 Brendan Eich: would buy games especially. But other apps, productivity apps, security apps, 162 00:09:50,290 --> 00:09:52,270 Brendan Eich: you would go down to Fry's and buy stuff, right? 163 00:09:52,270 --> 00:09:55,300 Brendan Eich: So this was more of a of a user sovereign world. 164 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,090 Brendan Eich: It was the world where you could do your own thing, 165 00:09:58,090 --> 00:10:01,449 Brendan Eich: you could upgrade your graphics card, you could try stuff, 166 00:10:01,450 --> 00:10:05,829 Brendan Eich: you know, you could participate in hacking on software for 167 00:10:05,830 --> 00:10:08,830 Brendan Eich: the PC. And when I did JavaScript, it became very 168 00:10:08,830 --> 00:10:11,230 Brendan Eich: easy for people to hack on websites in a way 169 00:10:11,230 --> 00:10:15,370 Brendan Eich: that was programmed. It was enlivened with dynamic responses, not 170 00:10:15,370 --> 00:10:17,230 Brendan Eich: just on the server side, but on the client side. 171 00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:20,110 Brendan Eich: And so what we were trying to do with Netscape 172 00:10:20,110 --> 00:10:22,870 Brendan Eich: was make the web lively and useful. We wanted to 173 00:10:22,870 --> 00:10:25,540 Brendan Eich: have images that was done at Mosaic and maybe we 174 00:10:25,630 --> 00:10:27,970 Brendan Eich: wanted to have cookies so you could log into your 175 00:10:27,970 --> 00:10:30,880 Brendan Eich: bank and then navigate around your different account views without 176 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:35,110 Brendan Eich: having to log in every time because the HTP protocol 177 00:10:35,110 --> 00:10:37,600 Brendan Eich: was stateless, so it would not remember who you were 178 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,290 Brendan Eich: and there was no way without cookies to keep track 179 00:10:41,290 --> 00:10:43,660 Brendan Eich: of you. So in some ways you could say tracking 180 00:10:43,660 --> 00:10:46,719 Brendan Eich: was invented through the cookie, but it was a good 181 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,140 Brendan Eich: kind of tracking. It was. First party, the site you 182 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:51,930 Brendan Eich: go to intentionally, the site you need to know is 183 00:10:51,929 --> 00:10:55,170 Brendan Eich: really your bank and not an imposter phishing site. And 184 00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:57,090 Brendan Eich: that's still true to this day. So that was what 185 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,090 Brendan Eich: you to before we didn't think about and I'm going 186 00:11:00,090 --> 00:11:02,430 Brendan Eich: to set Netscape a year late and people wanted to 187 00:11:02,429 --> 00:11:04,950 Brendan Eich: fix it, but it was too late. Was that between 188 00:11:04,950 --> 00:11:08,069 Brendan Eich: images and cookies, there was an easy way to trap 189 00:11:08,070 --> 00:11:10,660 Brendan Eich: users across the web and build up a profile. 190 00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:14,760 Joel Comm: And then that became something that was leveraged by, you know, 191 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,120 Joel Comm: big tech and say, okay, we can we can weaponize 192 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:23,280 Joel Comm: this not just for ad dollars, but against our so-called enemies. 193 00:11:25,540 --> 00:11:27,790 Brendan Eich: It was leveraged in many ways and that term is 194 00:11:27,790 --> 00:11:29,590 Brendan Eich: used in finance. It was even used that way because 195 00:11:29,590 --> 00:11:31,900 Brendan Eich: a lot of the tricks that were used with ad 196 00:11:31,900 --> 00:11:35,540 Brendan Eich: tech were sort of like financial trickery or, you know, 197 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:42,040 Brendan Eich: promising something for nothing. And when advertising technology evolved and 198 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,540 Brendan Eich: Google was a big part of this, but there was 199 00:11:43,540 --> 00:11:46,330 Brendan Eich: always a big sea of vendors out there in the 200 00:11:46,330 --> 00:11:49,360 Brendan Eich: so-called Loomis scape. They all depended on these things from 201 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:56,400 Brendan Eich: the nineties, the image, the cookie and scripts, JavaScript. And 202 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:57,360 Brendan Eich: so I created a monster. 203 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:01,140 Travis Wright: So, yeah, as you see, you inadvertently created something and 204 00:12:01,140 --> 00:12:03,510 Travis Wright: you were like, Well, so so is this a moment 205 00:12:03,510 --> 00:12:05,790 Travis Wright: where you're like, Wow, there's some crime, not only linger 206 00:12:05,790 --> 00:12:07,530 Travis Wright: lingering out there, I better do something to kind of 207 00:12:07,530 --> 00:12:10,560 Travis Wright: unravel this. And is that what you thought when you 208 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:12,270 Travis Wright: then went over to Mozilla? 209 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:16,500 Brendan Eich: I think with Mozilla, we we definitely wanted to take 210 00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:19,170 Brendan Eich: back the Web and show that the browser was not 211 00:12:19,170 --> 00:12:21,780 Brendan Eich: going to be Internet Explorer and Windows forever, which is 212 00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:24,600 Brendan Eich: what people would say, Oh, you can't drive a new 213 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,929 Brendan Eich: browser and get traction. Microsoft cornered the market and you 214 00:12:27,929 --> 00:12:30,210 Brendan Eich: should just give up. And they were wrong. We showed 215 00:12:30,210 --> 00:12:33,360 Brendan Eich: that with Firefox. We restarted the market. We showed Sergey 216 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,760 Brendan Eich: Brin in particular and Larry Page of Google. And they 217 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,180 Brendan Eich: they liked it so much. They made Chrome eventually and 218 00:12:39,179 --> 00:12:42,059 Brendan Eich: Safari at the same time. Steve Jobs saw the value 219 00:12:42,059 --> 00:12:45,359 Brendan Eich: of the web. So Safari was around the same time 220 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,050 Brendan Eich: as Firefox 0.9 or eight because that's. 221 00:12:49,050 --> 00:12:51,480 Travis Wright: Really because Bill Gates and the Explorer there was now 222 00:12:51,630 --> 00:12:53,580 Travis Wright: he's like, all right. Then he finally built the Explorer 223 00:12:53,580 --> 00:12:56,790 Travis Wright: and then it got up to like 90 something percent 224 00:12:57,030 --> 00:13:00,390 Travis Wright: of the people were 95% of the people were using that. 225 00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:04,020 Travis Wright: So of course, they needed an alternative because I remember 226 00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:06,689 Travis Wright: the floods. As soon as I found out about Firefox, 227 00:13:06,690 --> 00:13:08,819 Travis Wright: I was gone. Oh, how moving? 228 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,600 Brendan Eich: Yeah. Pop ups. Remember that lack of tabs and ActiveX 229 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,990 Brendan Eich: and other security holes? Microsoft walked away from it. They 230 00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:19,680 Brendan Eich: put it under of a skeleton crew because they thought 231 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:21,780 Brendan Eich: they could go back and do Windows Vista and get 232 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:24,449 Brendan Eich: good old fashioned Monopoly lock in like they had in 233 00:13:24,450 --> 00:13:29,310 Brendan Eich: the nineties. And they totally missed the Web 2.0 so-called. 234 00:13:29,309 --> 00:13:32,810 Brendan Eich: That's what John and Tim called it. But the point zero, 235 00:13:32,850 --> 00:13:35,849 Brendan Eich: which is kind of nerdy revolution that was happening through 236 00:13:35,850 --> 00:13:40,920 Brendan Eich: JavaScript and Moore's Law and browser innovation like in Firefox 237 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,630 Brendan Eich: and Safari and Opera, and they also missed mobile, right? 238 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,320 Brendan Eich: Even though they were doing things with Nokia, they missed 239 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,460 Brendan Eich: the iPhone. So Microsoft, in my view, miscalculated. But they definitely, 240 00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:54,300 Brendan Eich: after becoming a monopoly power with the browser, they just 241 00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:56,220 Brendan Eich: abandoned their explorer, they went to. 242 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,580 Joel Comm: Running and now they've got Edge, which is a stupid, 243 00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:02,579 Joel Comm: you know, browser that they bundle with the machine. And 244 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,329 Joel Comm: of course, Chrome became dominant. Firefox, you know, certainly had 245 00:14:06,330 --> 00:14:09,990 Joel Comm: its share, but Chrome became dominant. Google is evil and 246 00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:11,100 Joel Comm: they removed the. 247 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:11,730 Brendan Eich: New monopoly. 248 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:16,020 Joel Comm: And they're monopoly and you don't there's no reason to 249 00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:18,930 Joel Comm: use Google Chrome. It's harder to get off Gmail and 250 00:14:18,929 --> 00:14:21,720 Joel Comm: docs and calendar and I'm working on it myself. But 251 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,110 Joel Comm: it's easy to get off Chrome because Brave is a 252 00:14:25,110 --> 00:14:27,690 Joel Comm: great alternative. And you know, when I started using it, 253 00:14:27,690 --> 00:14:30,510 Joel Comm: there was probably, I don't know, maybe a million or so, 254 00:14:30,510 --> 00:14:33,990 Joel Comm: half a million users. Now you got 60 million active 255 00:14:33,990 --> 00:14:37,380 Joel Comm: users a month. I mean, and that's still just a 256 00:14:37,380 --> 00:14:40,350 Joel Comm: drop in the bucket for what it needs to be 257 00:14:40,350 --> 00:14:42,930 Joel Comm: for people to reclaim their privacy. 258 00:14:44,130 --> 00:14:45,720 Brendan Eich: Yeah, and you're right. We have to make it easy 259 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:48,690 Brendan Eich: to get off chrome, which, you know, in this world 260 00:14:48,690 --> 00:14:51,840 Brendan Eich: we live in. When you have some open source project 261 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,760 Brendan Eich: like Mozilla or what Steve Jobs forked into web kit, 262 00:14:57,150 --> 00:15:01,380 Brendan Eich: which was originally called HTML, and then Chrome forked into 263 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,350 Brendan Eich: the link and part of the chromium project, there's a 264 00:15:04,350 --> 00:15:07,020 Brendan Eich: sort of successful set of genes there. It's almost like, 265 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,880 Brendan Eich: you know, immune system genes or disease resistance genes, and 266 00:15:12,270 --> 00:15:14,670 Brendan Eich: those are not going to die. So people sometimes complain 267 00:15:14,670 --> 00:15:20,070 Brendan Eich: preinstalled on chromium, the open source that Google runs to 268 00:15:20,130 --> 00:15:22,560 Brendan Eich: build chromium, but it's also what edge is built on. 269 00:15:22,950 --> 00:15:26,250 Brendan Eich: Samsung browser is built on it, Yandex Opera and many others. 270 00:15:26,490 --> 00:15:30,180 Brendan Eich: So my my point here is that they're successful sort 271 00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:32,490 Brendan Eich: of open source DNA and we all share it and 272 00:15:32,490 --> 00:15:34,140 Brendan Eich: use it. And some of it goes back to Mozilla. 273 00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:36,330 Brendan Eich: So it's not all Google and a lot of it 274 00:15:36,330 --> 00:15:39,630 Brendan Eich: goes back to Apple Web case. But then there's what 275 00:15:39,630 --> 00:15:41,970 Brendan Eich: you do with the product that gives the user a 276 00:15:41,970 --> 00:15:44,300 Brendan Eich: fair deal, and that is something Google will not do. 277 00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:47,460 Brendan Eich: They're still talking about blocking so-called third party cookies. Those 278 00:15:47,460 --> 00:15:50,550 Brendan Eich: are the ones from the embedded invisible pixels and scripts 279 00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:53,640 Brendan Eich: that track you. And they they just kick the can 280 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:55,790 Brendan Eich: down the road again, delayed when they get rid of 281 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,260 Brendan Eich: third party cookies in almost every other browser. The browser 282 00:15:58,260 --> 00:16:01,020 Brendan Eich: out there now does protect you to some degree from 283 00:16:01,020 --> 00:16:04,260 Brendan Eich: those tracking cookies. Brave does the best job, but it's 284 00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:08,310 Brendan Eich: become standard except for Chrome, because Google is fundamentally this 285 00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:09,390 Brendan Eich: big ad exchange business. 286 00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:13,200 Travis Wright: I actually was Joel that you would have a one year. 287 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:17,010 Travis Wright: I'll have those cookies. Yeah, the Internet cookies. Sure you have. 288 00:16:17,130 --> 00:16:17,790 Brendan Eich: Yeah. Yeah. 289 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:19,370 Travis Wright: Sorry. I went to. 290 00:16:19,590 --> 00:16:21,540 Joel Comm: I got my psycho bunny on instead. 291 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,890 Travis Wright: Now, that's good. So, you know, now here we are. 292 00:16:25,890 --> 00:16:28,830 Travis Wright: You have brave. And what would you sort of you know, 293 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,240 Travis Wright: it says it's private. It's better. Why? Let's say somebody 294 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:34,950 Travis Wright: is tuning in to listen to bad trip out because 295 00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:37,320 Travis Wright: they don't even know why. We haven't talked about Brave 296 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,300 Travis Wright: for probably a year or so. I know Joe mentions 297 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:42,600 Travis Wright: it sometimes it's like because he doesn't use Chrome at all. Actually, 298 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,720 Travis Wright: on my computer downstairs, I don't really use chrome, but 299 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,940 Travis Wright: up here only Chrome was on. So I'm actually I'm 300 00:16:47,940 --> 00:16:50,940 Travis Wright: on Chrome right now, but I haven't had the power 301 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,370 Travis Wright: that Brave downloaded yet. But now I just got it downloaded. 302 00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:56,729 Travis Wright: What what would you say to people as to why 303 00:16:56,940 --> 00:16:58,980 Travis Wright: you want to get on this? What's that? What's that 304 00:16:58,980 --> 00:17:01,230 Travis Wright: that action for them and why would they even care? 305 00:17:02,350 --> 00:17:06,880 Brendan Eich: Right. So brave blocks all privacy threats by default, and 306 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,680 Brendan Eich: there's tons of them on the web, not just third 307 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,810 Brendan Eich: party cookies. There's fingerprinting methods, there's redirect bounce trackers. There's 308 00:17:13,810 --> 00:17:17,949 Brendan Eich: all sorts of crazy hairy surface on the Web APIs 309 00:17:17,950 --> 00:17:19,630 Brendan Eich: that can be used for tracking, and it can also 310 00:17:19,630 --> 00:17:21,430 Brendan Eich: be used for good. If you go to a site 311 00:17:21,430 --> 00:17:24,070 Brendan Eich: like your bank where you want to have that trusted relationship. 312 00:17:24,310 --> 00:17:26,740 Brendan Eich: So you have to block the bad but keep the good. 313 00:17:26,950 --> 00:17:30,280 Brendan Eich: This is an ongoing research and development agenda. We do 314 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:31,990 Brendan Eich: it and you see it in the product in the 315 00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:34,330 Brendan Eich: form of a rape shield. It's the lion's shield at 316 00:17:34,330 --> 00:17:37,659 Brendan Eich: the right end of the address bar. And that's that's 317 00:17:37,660 --> 00:17:39,369 Brendan Eich: the privacy part of Brave. Right next to it is 318 00:17:39,369 --> 00:17:41,950 Brendan Eich: the Bat logo. That's the basic attention token. That's the 319 00:17:42,010 --> 00:17:44,560 Brendan Eich: feeling the user in for Brave Rewards, part of a 320 00:17:44,570 --> 00:17:49,840 Brendan Eich: great user value proposition. But we we made privacy on 321 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,510 Brendan Eich: by default and the web standards didn't I'm sorry Netscape 322 00:17:52,510 --> 00:17:54,820 Brendan Eich: did we kind of missed about even if Firefox did 323 00:17:54,820 --> 00:17:58,899 Brendan Eich: not make browsing on by default Safari probably do the 324 00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:01,780 Brendan Eich: jobs did they did private windows as an option in 325 00:18:01,780 --> 00:18:04,210 Brendan Eich: Safari before they were added to Firefox and they're now 326 00:18:04,210 --> 00:18:07,300 Brendan Eich: standard in all browsers. These are windows that just forget 327 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:10,360 Brendan Eich: your your history and you don't save any cookies after 328 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:14,710 Brendan Eich: you close the window. And that's not enough. It doesn't 329 00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:17,710 Brendan Eich: give you network privacy. It doesn't protect you from from 330 00:18:17,710 --> 00:18:21,699 Brendan Eich: this tracking and privacy threat that is out there through ads. 331 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,899 Brendan Eich: So we've made privacy by default happen for all the 332 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:28,480 Brendan Eich: tracking threats. This just blocks all the ads. We've watched 333 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,600 Brendan Eich: the YouTube pre-roll ads. So Brave is the best YouTube 334 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,429 Brendan Eich: app out there. By the way. This is something people 335 00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:37,920 Brendan Eich: are starting to appreciate that adds more ads. Yeah, No. 336 00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:39,520 Brendan Eich: As they overload the ads to push you in the 337 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,129 Brendan Eich: YouTube premium, people are saying, Hey brave, this is already 338 00:18:42,130 --> 00:18:43,300 Brendan Eich: I can block ads for free. 339 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:45,429 Travis Wright: Yeah I hate that I later. Oh, so for a 340 00:18:45,430 --> 00:18:47,440 Travis Wright: month free, I know I'm not going to ever sign 341 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,160 Travis Wright: up so never. Basically brave is sort of like an 342 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,970 Travis Wright: anti-virus malware protection tool completely. 343 00:18:56,020 --> 00:18:59,920 Brendan Eich: That's right. In fact, malware went into ad tech. The 344 00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:04,150 Brendan Eich: malware distributors wanted to get machines taken over for ransomware 345 00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:06,970 Brendan Eich: originally for botnet conversion to do ads. Right. So they 346 00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:11,109 Brendan Eich: would put little exploit kit scripts hidden inside real ads 347 00:19:11,109 --> 00:19:15,520 Brendan Eich: they would pay to run in cheap slots on online sites. 348 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,030 Brendan Eich: And that was that's one of the threats we block. 349 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,250 Brendan Eich: So there are actual dangers out there. You know, people 350 00:19:21,250 --> 00:19:23,850 Brendan Eich: could trap you, surveil, you spy on your boy. You 351 00:19:23,859 --> 00:19:27,129 Brendan Eich: there's there's malware distribution, too. But just the privacy raid 352 00:19:27,130 --> 00:19:30,700 Brendan Eich: also hurts you because we hear about data breaches every year. 353 00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:33,910 Brendan Eich: So all these adtech vendors are trying to profile you 354 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:37,510 Brendan Eich: for their own business, their own exit to some bigger company, 355 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:40,419 Brendan Eich: their own return on the venture capital investment. Most of 356 00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:43,540 Brendan Eich: that's dying now and it's consolidated around Google and a 357 00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:48,220 Brendan Eich: few other big players Facebook, Twitter. But this privacy cost 358 00:19:48,220 --> 00:19:50,889 Brendan Eich: is not just that you might have a data breach 359 00:19:50,890 --> 00:19:53,410 Brendan Eich: or you feel spied on. You feel targeted by creepy ads. 360 00:19:53,619 --> 00:19:56,619 Brendan Eich: It's also that those scripts that keep running to target 361 00:19:56,619 --> 00:20:00,189 Brendan Eich: you in place, those ads burn your battery, especially on mobile, 362 00:20:00,190 --> 00:20:03,159 Brendan Eich: because they're running the radio a lot more like 40% 363 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,010 Brendan Eich: more than if you block them. And so you get 364 00:20:06,010 --> 00:20:09,310 Brendan Eich: a real performance winning page load and rendering. You get 365 00:20:09,310 --> 00:20:12,010 Brendan Eich: a real battery savings with brave. And this is measured 366 00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:15,909 Brendan Eich: independently by outfit UK called Green Spectre. In 2019, they 367 00:20:15,910 --> 00:20:18,940 Brendan Eich: showed a nice chart on Android. Brave was the winner 368 00:20:18,940 --> 00:20:21,340 Brendan Eich: in terms of battery savings and our own research team 369 00:20:21,340 --> 00:20:24,100 Brendan Eich: study just came to the same results. So it's an 370 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:28,209 Brendan Eich: honest result. We walk so many scripts and reduce the 371 00:20:28,210 --> 00:20:30,489 Brendan Eich: traffic on the net and this also plays into your 372 00:20:30,490 --> 00:20:33,310 Brendan Eich: data plan. If you pay for that and everybody does 373 00:20:33,310 --> 00:20:36,940 Brendan Eich: pay ultimately somehow that there's a real savings to the privacy. 374 00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:40,450 Brendan Eich: And privacy means power of battery savings. It means faster 375 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:41,679 Brendan Eich: paid for it. 376 00:20:41,770 --> 00:20:43,480 Joel Comm: Well, and there's a lot of things that are built 377 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,429 Joel Comm: into the browser that that I really like. When you 378 00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:48,190 Joel Comm: go to the settings, you know, I like that you 379 00:20:48,190 --> 00:20:50,920 Joel Comm: continue where you left off. You can easily import all 380 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,350 Joel Comm: your bookmarks from, you know, wherever you haven't. So you 381 00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:55,840 Joel Comm: can go to Chrome and export your whole HTML file 382 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,070 Joel Comm: and import them and organize them. Here you've got rewards 383 00:21:00,250 --> 00:21:04,120 Joel Comm: for if you decide to watch ads, but you've also got, 384 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,360 Joel Comm: you know, a built in wallet. You've got built in ipfs, 385 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,939 Joel Comm: which is useful for next year. This is there's a 386 00:21:09,940 --> 00:21:13,990 Joel Comm: lot of functionality. All I've only encountered, I think one 387 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,270 Joel Comm: Chrome extension that didn't work in my brave browser, but 388 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:23,260 Joel Comm: ever all the extensions for all my wallets and LastPass 389 00:21:23,260 --> 00:21:25,330 Joel Comm: and all those things metamask, they all work great. 390 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:29,350 Brendan Eich: They should. We took out the Google account system support 391 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,440 Brendan Eich: that extensions can use, but most don't because that's actually 392 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:36,310 Brendan Eich: a tracking vector to when Google realized that people weren't 393 00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:39,820 Brendan Eich: logging in to the browser. You still want to log 394 00:21:39,820 --> 00:21:42,310 Brendan Eich: into Chrome in the upper right corner. They said, Well, 395 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,609 Brendan Eich: darn it, we'll just log you in to our, you know, 396 00:21:45,609 --> 00:21:49,000 Brendan Eich: the browser. Any time you log in, in any tab 397 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,899 Brendan Eich: to YouTube or Gmail or one of our other log 398 00:21:51,910 --> 00:21:54,820 Brendan Eich: in services, and that tracks you across all tabs. So 399 00:21:54,820 --> 00:21:57,669 Brendan Eich: Google turns Chrome into spyware. They made it part of 400 00:21:57,670 --> 00:22:00,040 Brendan Eich: their ad business, and I can understand this. They have 401 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,590 Brendan Eich: to do this as a public company, but that's the 402 00:22:02,590 --> 00:22:04,600 Brendan Eich: opposite what we want. So we ripped out all that 403 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,390 Brendan Eich: that Google account tracking and that maybe what broke that extension. 404 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,780 Travis Wright: So I want to talk a little bit more about mobile. Right. 405 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:13,310 Travis Wright: Because it would seem to me that you using desktop 406 00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:16,300 Travis Wright: or your laptop brave is a great solution. But if 407 00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:19,690 Travis Wright: you're using your mobile device, which everyone is, it almost 408 00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:23,260 Travis Wright: seems like brave's pretty much the only solution because it 409 00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:26,300 Travis Wright: speeds everything up, it kills your battery less, right? So 410 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:28,900 Travis Wright: it's like, yeah, maybe talk a bit more about mobile 411 00:22:29,109 --> 00:22:32,080 Travis Wright: because I think that's just completely brilliant what you guys 412 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:32,440 Travis Wright: are doing. 413 00:22:33,550 --> 00:22:35,949 Brendan Eich: Yeah, that's where the real battery savings comes in because 414 00:22:35,950 --> 00:22:39,820 Brendan Eich: all this ad scripting overload that we block really does 415 00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:41,800 Brendan Eich: run the radio, and the radio is a number one 416 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,800 Brendan Eich: or two consumer of the battery. The screen is usually 417 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,170 Brendan Eich: the number one consumer. But when you load a bunch 418 00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:49,149 Brendan Eich: of scripts in Chrome, it's going to go crazy on 419 00:22:49,150 --> 00:22:51,880 Brendan Eich: your radio that's going to drain the battery. So it's 420 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,430 Brendan Eich: also going to delay page loads sometimes because the mobile 421 00:22:54,430 --> 00:22:57,400 Brendan Eich: web came later, a lot of the publishers didn't update 422 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,280 Brendan Eich: their designs. Well, many have by now, but you have 423 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,560 Brendan Eich: pages on mobile that will never load because of all 424 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,590 Brendan Eich: this crazy scripting and ad tech. So we block all 425 00:23:05,590 --> 00:23:07,990 Brendan Eich: that and there's a huge savings to your battery. It 426 00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:10,900 Brendan Eich: makes the page load faster. It's much more responsive. We 427 00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,510 Brendan Eich: do a great job with YouTube, so I do my 428 00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:15,669 Brendan Eich: I keep an eye on the YouTube app just for 429 00:23:15,670 --> 00:23:17,740 Brendan Eich: misery and to see what the ad pre-roll ads are 430 00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:20,200 Brendan Eich: and keep up with the Joneses. But it's a bad app. 431 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,199 Brendan Eich: So in Brave we have something, we'll bring it to Android. 432 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,379 Brendan Eich: It's already on iOS called Playlist. If you load a 433 00:23:26,380 --> 00:23:28,990 Brendan Eich: YouTube video or another video on a different site, you'll 434 00:23:28,990 --> 00:23:31,000 Brendan Eich: see a button up and the address bar on the 435 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,490 Brendan Eich: right to add the playlist. And you can open that 436 00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:36,220 Brendan Eich: video on the playlist. And it for me seamlessly switches 437 00:23:36,220 --> 00:23:40,090 Brendan Eich: over to a custom video player. There's no ads and 438 00:23:40,090 --> 00:23:44,320 Brendan Eich: you can save it for watching later. You can play 439 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,870 Brendan Eich: it when you're offline on a train. You can do 440 00:23:46,869 --> 00:23:48,850 Brendan Eich: all sorts of things that you should be allowed to do. 441 00:23:48,850 --> 00:23:52,000 Brendan Eich: You cannot easily get the file out or pirated, but 442 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,909 Brendan Eich: that's okay. You're just viewing it. This is something that any. 443 00:23:55,340 --> 00:23:56,930 Brendan Eich: Web browser should be able to deal with any web 444 00:23:56,930 --> 00:24:00,800 Brendan Eich: video that's put out in a standards way, conforming way 445 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,710 Brendan Eich: without DRM. And that's what most of YouTube is. So 446 00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:05,719 Brendan Eich: playlist is something I encourage people to check out on 447 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,520 Brendan Eich: iOS coming to Android. It's really great for YouTube. You 448 00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:11,600 Brendan Eich: can save it and playlist. Watch it later. If you 449 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,850 Brendan Eich: get interrupted, you don't worry about losing where you were 450 00:24:13,850 --> 00:24:18,590 Brendan Eich: in the YouTube mobile or web app. It's in your playlist. 451 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,350 Travis Wright: I want to add something it's just going to follow 452 00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:24,560 Travis Wright: up on. This is one of my favorite, you know, 453 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,379 Travis Wright: online website apps that I've used and I've actually worked 454 00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:29,870 Travis Wright: with them in the past as Cloud America. And what 455 00:24:29,869 --> 00:24:31,640 Travis Wright: I like about cloud in there is like, if I'm 456 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,449 Travis Wright: on my mobile device, I don't need a high res 457 00:24:35,450 --> 00:24:39,200 Travis Wright: image to download, right? I don't need a huge video 458 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,570 Travis Wright: to download. A lot of times these websites are so 459 00:24:41,570 --> 00:24:44,990 Travis Wright: filled with just it's an app or something that's 4k. 460 00:24:45,030 --> 00:24:47,679 Travis Wright: And here I am looking at it on something, you know, 461 00:24:47,780 --> 00:24:51,410 Travis Wright: that's super small. And so is that something you guys 462 00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:53,960 Travis Wright: are going to be integrating or something similar to that? 463 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,820 Travis Wright: Because it's almost like the automatic resizing of things saves 464 00:24:58,820 --> 00:25:00,560 Travis Wright: so much space. 465 00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:04,550 Brendan Eich: We've looked at it. Google used to have something like this, too. 466 00:25:04,790 --> 00:25:08,149 Brendan Eich: The problem is it's a huge privacy problem. If you 467 00:25:08,150 --> 00:25:10,280 Brendan Eich: don't do it right and you end up tracking what 468 00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:13,149 Brendan Eich: users are viewing by looking at how you have to 469 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,680 Brendan Eich: transcode their images. You want to do it in a 470 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,970 Brendan Eich: in a way that's scalable across the world and efficient. 471 00:25:18,980 --> 00:25:20,960 Brendan Eich: So we keep looking at and looking at partners like 472 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,740 Brendan Eich: Cloudflare and trying to get the privacy right. But what 473 00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:27,410 Brendan Eich: we mainly benefit from is just blocking so much stuff. 474 00:25:27,410 --> 00:25:30,380 Brendan Eich: So we've found, by the way, in doing something called 475 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:33,170 Brendan Eich: Brave News, which is another one of those batteries included 476 00:25:33,170 --> 00:25:35,820 Brendan Eich: features and brave. If you scroll up the bottom of 477 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,420 Brendan Eich: a new tab page, you'll see a newsfeed and it's 478 00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:41,300 Brendan Eich: matched on your device, just like the private ads and 479 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:44,510 Brendan Eich: rewards that you can opt into. And that private newsfeed 480 00:25:45,020 --> 00:25:48,190 Brendan Eich: is based on RSS feeds from around the web. Remember 481 00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:53,480 Brendan Eich: RSS and it has privacy preserving properties. It doesn't just 482 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,689 Brendan Eich: build up a dossier or a profile of you on 483 00:25:56,690 --> 00:26:00,080 Brendan Eich: the server side, and you can customize that. You can 484 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,060 Brendan Eich: add your own feeds, you can take out some of 485 00:26:02,060 --> 00:26:03,470 Brendan Eich: the feeds that we think might be good for you. 486 00:26:03,470 --> 00:26:07,190 Brendan Eich: But the way we curate those is not by profiling you, 487 00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:09,770 Brendan Eich: it's just by sending catalogs down to you. Same with 488 00:26:09,770 --> 00:26:13,580 Brendan Eich: the private ads and then letting local machine learning match 489 00:26:13,580 --> 00:26:16,640 Brendan Eich: or in this case, very simple logic, just match what 490 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,670 Brendan Eich: your history seems to be against what you get in 491 00:26:19,670 --> 00:26:23,389 Brendan Eich: the news feed that includes all the news sources and 492 00:26:23,390 --> 00:26:26,350 Brendan Eich: just picks the ones that match your history. And that 493 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,970 Brendan Eich: that's part of our toolkit here is to block things 494 00:26:29,210 --> 00:26:33,139 Brendan Eich: and to use a smarter way of getting content to you. 495 00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:35,070 Brendan Eich: And one of the things that I wanted to mention 496 00:26:35,070 --> 00:26:37,609 Brendan Eich: about news that you you inspired there is we do 497 00:26:37,609 --> 00:26:41,030 Brendan Eich: try to keep the images from being too oversized. And 498 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,330 Brendan Eich: sometimes we find news sites like you said, are shipping 499 00:26:44,330 --> 00:26:46,490 Brendan Eich: the 4K down to the phone for no good reason. 500 00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:48,770 Brendan Eich: So we actually have around that. So part of our 501 00:26:48,770 --> 00:26:52,100 Brendan Eich: greatest toolkit is to be a muscular client that has 502 00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:54,739 Brendan Eich: a lot of sort of smart filter rules that we 503 00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:57,800 Brendan Eich: can update quickly in a day or two to shield 504 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,920 Brendan Eich: your privacy to get the right image sizes to you 505 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:02,780 Brendan Eich: to block things and save your battery. 506 00:27:04,570 --> 00:27:08,530 Joel Comm: So if I'm showing my screen here right now and 507 00:27:08,530 --> 00:27:13,540 Joel Comm: you can see on this browser, I've I've had 8061 508 00:27:13,540 --> 00:27:19,359 Joel Comm: trackers in ads blocked saved 283.2 meg of bandwidth and 509 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,850 Joel Comm: 7 minutes of time. This is a computer I've had 510 00:27:21,850 --> 00:27:24,220 Joel Comm: for just a few weeks. So this is a new install, 511 00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:26,380 Joel Comm: which is why my brave rewards are new. I just 512 00:27:26,380 --> 00:27:31,750 Joel Comm: looked at my my iPhone and on here my brave 513 00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:36,580 Joel Comm: browser says 96,000 trackers in ads blocked almost three gig 514 00:27:36,580 --> 00:27:40,280 Joel Comm: of estimated data saved an hour of time and and 515 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,080 Joel Comm: I've got rewards in my brave wallet as well so 516 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,140 Joel Comm: let's talk a little bit about that the the rewards 517 00:27:47,410 --> 00:27:52,240 Joel Comm: the the attention token and how we do that and 518 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,280 Joel Comm: how it's used within the ecosystem. 519 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,670 Brendan Eich: So when I said it created a monster, I meant 520 00:27:58,150 --> 00:28:01,600 Brendan Eich: the worst part about JavaScript. The role in ad tech 521 00:28:02,170 --> 00:28:07,360 Brendan Eich: was that it was something where the browser was actually 522 00:28:08,170 --> 00:28:10,929 Brendan Eich: in the middle of all these ads being placed and 523 00:28:10,930 --> 00:28:13,389 Brendan Eich: all the tracking happening. The first ad targeted you, and 524 00:28:13,390 --> 00:28:16,090 Brendan Eich: then depending on what ads you viewed or the cheating 525 00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:17,800 Brendan Eich: that they do to try to say you to that 526 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,889 Brendan Eich: when you didn't, JavaScript was involved there too. So I 527 00:28:20,890 --> 00:28:23,770 Brendan Eich: felt like Dr. Frankenstein a bit, right? They had their 528 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,889 Brendan Eich: kill on Monster because that was not only draining your 529 00:28:26,890 --> 00:28:29,469 Brendan Eich: battery and exposing to all the threats we talked about. 530 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,689 Brendan Eich: You weren't a piece you weren't out in as a 531 00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:35,320 Brendan Eich: real person who should be given part of the revenue. 532 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:37,780 Brendan Eich: So from the beginning with Brave, I wanted to deal 533 00:28:37,780 --> 00:28:40,630 Brendan Eich: the user in to show, not just tell, that we 534 00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:44,320 Brendan Eich: put the user first. A lot of upstart browsers and 535 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,020 Brendan Eich: privacy products will say, you know, our product is the 536 00:28:47,020 --> 00:28:50,860 Brendan Eich: best and we put the user first, but talk is cheap. 537 00:28:51,070 --> 00:28:54,460 Brendan Eich: If we actually pay you at least as much as 538 00:28:54,460 --> 00:28:57,190 Brendan Eich: we get from the gross ad revenue, then that I 539 00:28:57,190 --> 00:29:00,400 Brendan Eich: think aligns our interests and avoids these conflicts of interests 540 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,490 Brendan Eich: that the big tech companies have where they become adversarial 541 00:29:03,490 --> 00:29:06,790 Brendan Eich: toward their users in order to serve their shareholders and 542 00:29:06,790 --> 00:29:09,790 Brendan Eich: their bottom line. So we do that with brave rewards. 543 00:29:09,790 --> 00:29:13,360 Brendan Eich: It's an optional system. We started out with Bitcoin and 544 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,700 Brendan Eich: this was in 2016. We built a system where you 545 00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:17,620 Brendan Eich: could bring your own Bitcoin and you could send it 546 00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:21,280 Brendan Eich: to creators, website owners really who'd signed up with us. 547 00:29:21,580 --> 00:29:25,030 Brendan Eich: And it was pretty much direct. It was through Multisig 548 00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:28,270 Brendan Eich: wallets that Bitgo helped us with. So there was good 549 00:29:28,270 --> 00:29:31,060 Brendan Eich: security and no, no, no brave custody in the middle. 550 00:29:31,060 --> 00:29:35,050 Brendan Eich: It was like a two or three month scheme. But 551 00:29:35,050 --> 00:29:38,560 Brendan Eich: we found that between the Bitcoin block size issue and 552 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,220 Brendan Eich: the congestion in 2017 and the fact that people want 553 00:29:42,220 --> 00:29:44,620 Brendan Eich: to hold Bitcoin because you had Bitcoin back then, if 554 00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:47,740 Brendan Eich: you don't want to send it to some random publisher, 555 00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:49,120 Brendan Eich: you want to keep it because it's worth a lot 556 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,690 Brendan Eich: more now even with current market. So we realized we 557 00:29:53,690 --> 00:29:57,160 Brendan Eich: needed a new smart contract system in a new approach 558 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,890 Brendan Eich: that included the browser as an element in the system. 559 00:29:59,890 --> 00:30:03,830 Brendan Eich: Because you cannot do ads and attention and privacy on 560 00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:08,410 Brendan Eich: the blockchain public blockchains, unlike zcash with pseudo transactions, but 561 00:30:08,410 --> 00:30:14,170 Brendan Eich: in general, distributed public ledgers or decentralized public ledgers are public. 562 00:30:15,670 --> 00:30:18,160 Brendan Eich: And that means that you can fingerprint the user by 563 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,850 Brendan Eich: looking at transactions over time. Chainalysis Does this people discover 564 00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:24,820 Brendan Eich: who was behind the Mt. Gox hack or where the 565 00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:27,500 Brendan Eich: funds went? Things like that. People are looking at where 566 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,590 Brendan Eich: FDX got its funds and where they might have gone. 567 00:30:30,610 --> 00:30:33,430 Brendan Eich: So there's a sort of problem for privacy if you 568 00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:35,500 Brendan Eich: try to do everything on chain. Also, like I said, 569 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,530 Brendan Eich: it got expensive on bitcoin in 2017, got expensive on 570 00:30:38,530 --> 00:30:41,920 Brendan Eich: Ethereum after that. So we always included the browser as 571 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,480 Brendan Eich: sort of a ultimate edge in our decentralized system, where 572 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,510 Brendan Eich: each browser, each supercomputer in your pocket or your laptop 573 00:30:49,690 --> 00:30:52,480 Brendan Eich: can do a lot of local processing to match ads 574 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,400 Brendan Eich: against the catalog and to mint zero knowledge proofs or 575 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:02,080 Brendan Eich: sign your blind signature certificates. And this is at low cost, 576 00:31:02,170 --> 00:31:05,140 Brendan Eich: but it can preserve your anonymity, it can keep you shielded, 577 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,020 Brendan Eich: and yet your you into the revenue flow. And that's 578 00:31:08,020 --> 00:31:09,940 Brendan Eich: what we built with great rewards as an opt in 579 00:31:09,940 --> 00:31:12,400 Brendan Eich: private ad system. You can also add your own funds. 580 00:31:12,670 --> 00:31:16,330 Brendan Eich: You can tip or give a recurring monthly contribution to creators. 581 00:31:16,330 --> 00:31:19,390 Brendan Eich: We've got, I think, 1.3 million creators signed up. A 582 00:31:19,390 --> 00:31:21,700 Brendan Eich: lot of them are YouTubers because they either never got 583 00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:25,300 Brendan Eich: monetized or they got demonetized without being kicked off the platform. 584 00:31:25,870 --> 00:31:28,150 Brendan Eich: But YouTube is still where the videos are hosted. Well, 585 00:31:28,150 --> 00:31:30,940 Brendan Eich: in the comments or so, we provide those creators an 586 00:31:30,940 --> 00:31:33,430 Brendan Eich: alternative means for their fans to support them. And that 587 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,520 Brendan Eich: is the fan, the creator, Direct flow I mentioned. And 588 00:31:36,790 --> 00:31:39,940 Brendan Eich: once you form a relationship with that creator, you can 589 00:31:39,940 --> 00:31:43,720 Brendan Eich: even go direct through your self-custody wallet to their creators, 590 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,390 Brendan Eich: wallet on chain, on a fast chain with low fees 591 00:31:46,390 --> 00:31:48,940 Brendan Eich: if you want to do so, we're paving the way 592 00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:54,100 Brendan Eich: toward usable self-custody and direct peer to peer crypto through 593 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:57,520 Brendan Eich: great rewards. We're getting users from a very large funnel 594 00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,740 Brendan Eich: up to 60 million. It's been fluctuating on the monthly active, 595 00:31:59,740 --> 00:32:02,200 Brendan Eich: so that's kind of a difficult number. I can explain 596 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,350 Brendan Eich: more and we're getting those users. Funneled into crypto and 597 00:32:05,710 --> 00:32:11,260 Brendan Eich: in winter or summer or nuclear winter, whatever happened to FCX? 598 00:32:11,530 --> 00:32:15,340 Brendan Eich: Whatever happened there is causing a real chill right now. 599 00:32:15,580 --> 00:32:17,950 Brendan Eich: We're bullish on crypto. We think in the long run 600 00:32:17,950 --> 00:32:20,620 Brendan Eich: this is the right way to advance the users interests 601 00:32:20,620 --> 00:32:22,720 Brendan Eich: above all the central powers. 602 00:32:23,050 --> 00:32:25,510 Travis Wright: Yeah, just scroll down on your website. Basic attention token. 603 00:32:25,510 --> 00:32:27,790 Travis Wright: You can see you still have FCX there, so you 604 00:32:27,790 --> 00:32:31,900 Travis Wright: need to change that to WTI. Yes, probably. 605 00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:34,870 Brendan Eich: Yeah. It's a self-serve system. We're going to try to 606 00:32:34,870 --> 00:32:37,880 Brendan Eich: decentralize it through in a TS, but they did verify. 607 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,330 Brendan Eich: I think we have no other relationship with them on, 608 00:32:40,330 --> 00:32:43,000 Brendan Eich: on having an account with them or any assets with them. 609 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,830 Brendan Eich: And I'm glad to say that because a lot of 610 00:32:44,830 --> 00:32:48,400 Brendan Eich: people are in big trouble now, unfortunately. And it's a 611 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,240 Brendan Eich: real hit to crypto. 612 00:32:49,630 --> 00:32:52,630 Travis Wright: Yeah. So there's no solutions for you. Okay. 613 00:32:52,690 --> 00:32:53,020 Brendan Eich: Right. 614 00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:55,840 Travis Wright: I want to ask about advertising, cause I know some 615 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,030 Travis Wright: people say, well, wait a second, so Brave doesn't know 616 00:32:58,030 --> 00:33:02,380 Travis Wright: anything really about me. How can they, you know, show 617 00:33:02,380 --> 00:33:04,690 Travis Wright: me ads that are relevant to me? Because here I 618 00:33:04,690 --> 00:33:08,470 Travis Wright: am when I'm on Instagram, I for one minute I 619 00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:11,080 Travis Wright: buy way too much shit on Instagram ads because it's 620 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,290 Travis Wright: like it knows me, right? And I'm like, Oh, hell yeah. 621 00:33:14,290 --> 00:33:17,680 Travis Wright: I need this freaking whistle thing. There's it helps relieve 622 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:24,310 Travis Wright: the stress about this. I appreciate Instagram. Right? So how 623 00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:29,080 Travis Wright: does Brave give people relevant ads to products or services 624 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,450 Travis Wright: that they need when you don't know anything about it? 625 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,200 Brendan Eich: Good question. So when you think about the way ad 626 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,440 Brendan Eich: Tech works on Instagram or Facebook or Google, they're collecting 627 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,440 Brendan Eich: all this data about everybody and they can put it 628 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,050 Brendan Eich: in a big database and they can do studies and 629 00:33:44,380 --> 00:33:47,440 Brendan Eich: regressions and say, Hey, this person looks like that person. 630 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,080 Brendan Eich: That person bought a car, This person might buy a car. 631 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,900 Brendan Eich: Let's show them a car. That's powerful, but a lot 632 00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:55,930 Brendan Eich: of it is spammy. They guess wrong about you. They 633 00:33:55,930 --> 00:33:58,840 Brendan Eich: show you ads that you don't like or they hammer 634 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,150 Brendan Eich: you with the same ad over and over. That's called retargeting. 635 00:34:01,750 --> 00:34:04,930 Brendan Eich: What we do doesn't collect any data. We don't want 636 00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:06,850 Brendan Eich: to be a mini Google. Then we'd have a hard 637 00:34:06,850 --> 00:34:09,040 Brendan Eich: time convincing anybody to trust us, even if we did 638 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,089 Brendan Eich: share revenue. So we make the matching happen not in 639 00:34:13,090 --> 00:34:15,250 Brendan Eich: the cloud but on your device. And the way to 640 00:34:15,250 --> 00:34:16,989 Brendan Eich: do that is not to have all the ads on 641 00:34:16,989 --> 00:34:19,570 Brendan Eich: your device because they're big and they're video or web pages. 642 00:34:19,780 --> 00:34:23,020 Brendan Eich: We send links to those ads with keywords next to them. 643 00:34:23,260 --> 00:34:26,680 Brendan Eich: One Perot in a catalog, and this catalog updates a 644 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,710 Brendan Eich: couple of times a day. And it's not that big. 645 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,120 Brendan Eich: This doesn't use up your data plan. This is kind 646 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,700 Brendan Eich: of like what browsers do to keep track of malware 647 00:34:33,700 --> 00:34:36,520 Brendan Eich: and phishing threats with, say, browsing lists or our own 648 00:34:37,060 --> 00:34:40,560 Brendan Eich: filter rule lists for the rape shield. We update these 649 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,120 Brendan Eich: these data files. And in the case of rewards, there's 650 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,580 Brendan Eich: a catalog of ads you can get identified by their location, 651 00:34:48,580 --> 00:34:51,670 Brendan Eich: their web address and some keywords. So then the challenges 652 00:34:51,700 --> 00:34:54,250 Brendan Eich: do the matching with local machine learning. Only when you 653 00:34:54,250 --> 00:34:57,100 Brendan Eich: turn on rewards does happen. It's like keeping a separate 654 00:34:57,100 --> 00:34:59,980 Brendan Eich: history and all browsers keep history usually for two weeks 655 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,250 Brendan Eich: with great rewards so longer because your value may extend 656 00:35:03,250 --> 00:35:07,930 Brendan Eich: back 30 days to come and look that period in attack. 657 00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:10,540 Brendan Eich: But the separate history can be cleared by you. It 658 00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:12,580 Brendan Eich: doesn't leak out to us. We don't follow that history. 659 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,190 Brendan Eich: But the local machine learning and the ad agent can 660 00:35:15,190 --> 00:35:17,380 Brendan Eich: then say, Hey, you can look in your car sites. 661 00:35:17,860 --> 00:35:20,020 Brendan Eich: I'm going to pick the row in the catalog that 662 00:35:20,020 --> 00:35:22,930 Brendan Eich: has the car or the making model for that matter 663 00:35:22,930 --> 00:35:26,980 Brendan Eich: keyword that our direct sales team already did a deal for. 664 00:35:27,190 --> 00:35:29,230 Brendan Eich: So we're we're out there doing direct sales and we're 665 00:35:29,230 --> 00:35:32,379 Brendan Eich: working on scaling this up to get more demand partners in, 666 00:35:32,710 --> 00:35:36,160 Brendan Eich: but always with privacy. Instead of surveilling you and pulling 667 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,980 Brendan Eich: your data into our cloud, we push out the offers 668 00:35:38,980 --> 00:35:41,950 Brendan Eich: to the ultimate edge, the browser in your pocket, and 669 00:35:41,950 --> 00:35:44,649 Brendan Eich: that's where the matching happens. And then if you do 670 00:35:44,650 --> 00:35:46,450 Brendan Eich: see the ad, we have to confirm that. But that's 671 00:35:46,450 --> 00:35:49,750 Brendan Eich: where that blind signature cryptography I mentioned comes in in 672 00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:52,780 Brendan Eich: the future. Zero knowledge proof. So there are great tools 673 00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:56,380 Brendan Eich: in the cryptographic tool kit. They've been developed since the 674 00:35:56,380 --> 00:35:59,980 Brendan Eich: nineties and they're especially being used in blockchain projects for 675 00:36:00,340 --> 00:36:04,810 Brendan Eich: keeping you anonymous, keeping your identity unbreakable from the particular 676 00:36:05,230 --> 00:36:07,450 Brendan Eich: things you viewed. So all we have to do is 677 00:36:07,450 --> 00:36:10,419 Brendan Eich: get honest counting of the views for an ad to 678 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,360 Brendan Eich: show the ad buyer that the ad performed. They don't 679 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,219 Brendan Eich: need to know about you. They might like to because 680 00:36:15,219 --> 00:36:17,800 Brendan Eich: a lot of little nosy that way. We don't have 681 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,960 Brendan Eich: that information in our servers. We don't want them to 682 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,729 Brendan Eich: have it. We don't need them to have it. And 683 00:36:21,820 --> 00:36:25,480 Brendan Eich: if the outperforms, then they should be happy with what 684 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,790 Brendan Eich: they bought and that's where we share the revenue with you. 685 00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:32,080 Joel Comm: Brendan What do you think the number is of active 686 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,850 Joel Comm: users that would put you on Google's radar and go, Oh, 687 00:36:36,850 --> 00:36:37,810 Joel Comm: this is a threat? 688 00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:43,149 Brendan Eich: Yeah, Google knows about us. But I think when Firefox 689 00:36:43,150 --> 00:36:48,100 Brendan Eich: was still, you know, plausibly saying they have like 450 690 00:36:48,100 --> 00:36:51,550 Brendan Eich: million monthly active users when it was kind of a 691 00:36:51,550 --> 00:36:55,320 Brendan Eich: fragile number. Same reason ours is it was falling and 692 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,150 Brendan Eich: the monthly active user is somebody who use you once 693 00:36:58,150 --> 00:37:00,460 Brendan Eich: a month or more. Well, some users will use you 694 00:37:00,460 --> 00:37:02,529 Brendan Eich: every day but Sunday. And that's a really valuable use 695 00:37:02,530 --> 00:37:06,060 Brendan Eich: that's almost daily at. Whereas other monthly active users just 696 00:37:06,060 --> 00:37:08,969 Brendan Eich: start their Windows PC at home and it fires up. 697 00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:11,550 Brendan Eich: Popups are brave from the system tray, but they hardly 698 00:37:11,550 --> 00:37:14,760 Brendan Eich: touch it. That's not a valuable user. So monthly active 699 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,760 Brendan Eich: users is a tricky number and it's not really well defined. 700 00:37:18,780 --> 00:37:20,759 Brendan Eich: But if you get into the hundreds of millions, you're 701 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,730 Brendan Eich: on Google's radar. You get 60 million around there like 702 00:37:23,730 --> 00:37:25,259 Brendan Eich: we have. You're on Google's radar. 703 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,830 Joel Comm: So how do we you know, this next step is 704 00:37:28,830 --> 00:37:30,839 Joel Comm: just going to be the question that, you know, is 705 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,730 Joel Comm: in your on your mind is you're going to sleep 706 00:37:32,730 --> 00:37:35,810 Joel Comm: every night is how do we get to, you know, 707 00:37:35,820 --> 00:37:40,589 Joel Comm: 100 million, 250 million, you know, a billion? How do 708 00:37:40,590 --> 00:37:42,300 Joel Comm: you attain that? 709 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,390 Brendan Eich: Yeah, I do. I do think about the slot because 710 00:37:45,660 --> 00:37:48,570 Brendan Eich: at some point you're up against the device makers and 711 00:37:48,570 --> 00:37:50,609 Brendan Eich: they tend to put Chrome in there on the Android 712 00:37:50,610 --> 00:37:53,670 Brendan Eich: OS as the default. Even though they've been spanked by 713 00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:58,590 Brendan Eich: the European Competitive Practices Regulator for doing that, that they're 714 00:37:58,590 --> 00:38:02,069 Brendan Eich: not supposed to force Chrome is the default. And in 715 00:38:02,070 --> 00:38:07,710 Brendan Eich: the US there's been similar concern on iOS. On the 716 00:38:07,710 --> 00:38:10,529 Brendan Eich: iPhone iPad it used to be only Safari could be 717 00:38:10,530 --> 00:38:13,650 Brendan Eich: the default browser iOS 14 a couple of summers ago. Change. 718 00:38:13,650 --> 00:38:17,430 Brendan Eich: This was good because a lot of users want readability 719 00:38:17,730 --> 00:38:20,009 Brendan Eich: and finally we could do it. I think it happened 720 00:38:20,010 --> 00:38:22,980 Brendan Eich: in part because of competition. I think it happened also 721 00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:25,859 Brendan Eich: due to some, let's say, moral pressure, not the politicians 722 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,469 Brendan Eich: or all that moral, but much of Congress people on 723 00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:31,890 Brendan Eich: antitrust Committee sent a letter to Tim Cook, and in 724 00:38:31,890 --> 00:38:34,500 Brendan Eich: that letter they said you should allow users to make 725 00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:37,560 Brendan Eich: a different browser or mail app be the default. And 726 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,500 Brendan Eich: by the way, Brave's policy guy helped draft that letter. 727 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:47,880 Brendan Eich: So there's a mix of policy and competition and finding 728 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,010 Brendan Eich: the right partners that we can use to grow and 729 00:38:50,010 --> 00:38:52,860 Brendan Eich: to get a bit more fair play playing field. And 730 00:38:52,860 --> 00:38:55,170 Brendan Eich: that's on my mind as we get bigger, because the 731 00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:58,170 Brendan Eich: bigger you get, the harder it is to get on 732 00:38:58,170 --> 00:39:02,430 Brendan Eich: to the phones. To replace Chrome, you have to find 733 00:39:02,430 --> 00:39:05,640 Brendan Eich: partners who will help distribute you or offset the distribution cost. 734 00:39:05,969 --> 00:39:09,000 Brendan Eich: This is this is true, especially now. It was even 735 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,420 Brendan Eich: true back in the Firefox days. The hooks grew organically 736 00:39:12,420 --> 00:39:15,759 Brendan Eich: very big before Chrome finally, I think in 2011 started 737 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:20,660 Brendan Eich: to pick. And by the way, Google has to pay 738 00:39:20,660 --> 00:39:24,290 Brendan Eich: for distribution, too, because on Windows, as you know, edges 739 00:39:24,290 --> 00:39:27,219 Brendan Eich: is equal to Microsoft. Mm hmm. So Google's in there 740 00:39:27,230 --> 00:39:32,149 Brendan Eich: distributing Chrome, somehow advertising, doing some sketchy deals to push 741 00:39:32,150 --> 00:39:33,200 Brendan Eich: it onto your hard disk. 742 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,739 Travis Wright: Hmm. So let me ask you this then. So. So 743 00:39:36,739 --> 00:39:40,100 Travis Wright: what do you think is is next? What's what excites 744 00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:43,880 Travis Wright: you the most kind of moving forward with Bray? Because, 745 00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:46,370 Travis Wright: you know, you've been here since the very beginning. We're 746 00:39:46,370 --> 00:39:48,919 Travis Wright: moving into Web three, and you're the one that's helping, 747 00:39:49,219 --> 00:39:51,770 Travis Wright: you know, in a lot of ways, help content creators, 748 00:39:51,770 --> 00:39:53,959 Travis Wright: own their own content. So you're kind of the Web 749 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:57,190 Travis Wright: three browser in my mind, right? Joel's my Angel. Joe's 750 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,350 Travis Wright: a big fan of Brave. He uses it everywhere and 751 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,930 Travis Wright: yells at me when I'm not using it. And I'm like, 752 00:40:02,930 --> 00:40:04,489 Travis Wright: Oh yeah, I need to get back on that. What 753 00:40:04,489 --> 00:40:06,590 Travis Wright: am I doing? And so it's like, what? What are 754 00:40:06,590 --> 00:40:08,960 Travis Wright: some of those things that excites you the most about 755 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:09,830 Travis Wright: where you're going? 756 00:40:12,620 --> 00:40:15,230 Brendan Eich: Yeah, I think we are aspiring to be the web browser. 757 00:40:15,260 --> 00:40:18,440 Brendan Eich: Nobody knows what free means exactly, but the best way 758 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,450 Brendan Eich: to predict the future is to invent it, like Alan 759 00:40:21,050 --> 00:40:25,100 Brendan Eich: Xerox Park fame said. And the general notions around it 760 00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:31,190 Brendan Eich: are solid. They're self-custody. Self-sovereign identity, user sovereignty. Being able 761 00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:34,850 Brendan Eich: to go direct on a blockchain, be able to use Ipfs, 762 00:40:34,850 --> 00:40:39,440 Brendan Eich: for instance, for data storage without any concern that someone 763 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,379 Brendan Eich: out there is going to censor you or some nation 764 00:40:42,380 --> 00:40:44,750 Brendan Eich: state is going to do something dear to you. We 765 00:40:44,750 --> 00:40:47,600 Brendan Eich: also have Tor built in the desktop frame that I 766 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,460 Brendan Eich: mentioned that Tor private Windows for network privacy. What excites 767 00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:55,730 Brendan Eich: me about Web3 is that I think crypto gets to 768 00:40:55,730 --> 00:40:58,609 Brendan Eich: go social and it needs to, right? If crypto is 769 00:40:58,610 --> 00:41:02,960 Brendan Eich: just a bunch of hex addresses and signing transactions and 770 00:41:03,230 --> 00:41:07,219 Brendan Eich: it's kind of low level and sort of complex. It's 771 00:41:07,219 --> 00:41:10,220 Brendan Eich: like the internet before the web browser, before Mosaic, let's say. 772 00:41:10,230 --> 00:41:12,650 Brendan Eich: It's like the old command line I used in the 773 00:41:12,650 --> 00:41:15,890 Brendan Eich: eighties and, you know, email was around then, so it's 774 00:41:15,890 --> 00:41:18,049 Brendan Eich: kind of familiar, but using it, we kind of miss 775 00:41:18,050 --> 00:41:20,390 Brendan Eich: the quality of that. But a lot of that stuff 776 00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:24,800 Brendan Eich: like Telnet and FTP kind of died for most people. 777 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,009 Brendan Eich: And that's, I think what needs to happen with crypto. 778 00:41:28,010 --> 00:41:30,320 Brendan Eich: And it's not to die, but to be abstract and 779 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,109 Brendan Eich: simplify it so you can do what looks more like 780 00:41:33,110 --> 00:41:37,280 Brendan Eich: an app interaction or compound transaction or meta transaction instead 781 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,940 Brendan Eich: of doing these little detailed signing and confirming transactions with 782 00:41:40,940 --> 00:41:47,480 Brendan Eich: hex addresses and using people and trusted identities, pseudonyms as 783 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,200 Brendan Eich: well as real names to interact with people and build 784 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:53,719 Brendan Eich: up reputation is going to be super important, I think. 785 00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:56,870 Brendan Eich: It shouldn't belong only to Twitter. Sorry, it shouldn't belong 786 00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:59,450 Brendan Eich: only to Facebook. This has to be something that's decentralized 787 00:41:59,780 --> 00:42:03,049 Brendan Eich: and it's it's hard to decentralize, right? My my best 788 00:42:03,050 --> 00:42:05,030 Brendan Eich: idea right now is that you actually don't want to 789 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,489 Brendan Eich: try to compete with Twitter. I don't want to do 790 00:42:07,489 --> 00:42:10,910 Brendan Eich: a brave Twitter. I want to do a front end 791 00:42:10,910 --> 00:42:14,600 Brendan Eich: in brave. This aggregates social and then lets you re 792 00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:16,910 Brendan Eich: aggregate it sort of like that news, brave news I 793 00:42:16,910 --> 00:42:19,700 Brendan Eich: mentioned where the RSS feeds can be matched against your 794 00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:23,750 Brendan Eich: interests locally. So I want my Twitter friends. If they 795 00:42:23,810 --> 00:42:25,969 Brendan Eich: moved to Mastodon, I want to keep track them through 796 00:42:25,969 --> 00:42:29,899 Brendan Eich: my private address book, which I have for my Mac 797 00:42:29,900 --> 00:42:33,350 Brendan Eich: OS and iOS. I want to even resurrect them on 798 00:42:33,350 --> 00:42:35,330 Brendan Eich: a thread where they seem to have disappeared because they 799 00:42:35,330 --> 00:42:38,120 Brendan Eich: left Twitter. I got kicked off Twitter. I can find them. 800 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,080 Brendan Eich: I can superimpose comments from different sources. In some ways 801 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,410 Brendan Eich: you can imagine YouTube becomes just as video hosting. If 802 00:42:45,410 --> 00:42:48,440 Brendan Eich: it weren't for this social aspect where people comment and 803 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,110 Brendan Eich: that could be lifted out of YouTube and into the 804 00:42:51,110 --> 00:42:53,739 Brendan Eich: browser and the comments can be stored in IP address 805 00:42:53,989 --> 00:42:56,210 Brendan Eich: or even on your Dropbox or iCloud because they aren't 806 00:42:56,210 --> 00:42:59,840 Brendan Eich: that big. The personal Twitter Twitter posts they do even 807 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:05,000 Brendan Eich: with images, is less space than my home pictures, videos 808 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,650 Brendan Eich: of my kids. So there's something to be said for 809 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,820 Brendan Eich: user first that uses all the tools. It uses your 810 00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:14,839 Brendan Eich: private cloud, it uses gifs, which is not a blockchain, 811 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,810 Brendan Eich: but it is a peer to peer network. It uses blockchains, 812 00:43:18,110 --> 00:43:22,070 Brendan Eich: it uses the browser storage, it uses the browser's ability 813 00:43:22,070 --> 00:43:25,850 Brendan Eich: to compose and decompose or aggregates content. 814 00:43:26,820 --> 00:43:30,030 Joel Comm: Well. Well, I'm I'm going to preach at everybody and say, 815 00:43:30,030 --> 00:43:33,090 Joel Comm: if you're still using Chrome, you don't need to. It's 816 00:43:33,090 --> 00:43:36,000 Joel Comm: a it's a real easy switch gang to export your 817 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,390 Joel Comm: bookmarks and then bring them into brave. Go to brave 818 00:43:39,390 --> 00:43:42,719 Joel Comm: dot com. You can download it right here and you're 819 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:47,070 Joel Comm: you're a hero Brandon so much so that when we 820 00:43:47,070 --> 00:43:51,270 Joel Comm: did blockchain heroes all those many years ago. I've got 821 00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:55,319 Joel Comm: to show you this one of the heroes was inspired 822 00:43:55,860 --> 00:44:00,390 Joel Comm: by you. His name was Courage. And he's he's got 823 00:44:00,390 --> 00:44:03,029 Joel Comm: some good eyes on this guy here. I mean, he's 824 00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:04,410 Joel Comm: like all muscle. 825 00:44:04,530 --> 00:44:05,550 Brendan Eich: He didn't skip leg day? 826 00:44:05,940 --> 00:44:10,770 Joel Comm: No. Ha ha ha ha ha. Not at all. Well, 827 00:44:10,770 --> 00:44:11,280 Joel Comm: did we? 828 00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:14,100 Travis Wright: We appreciate you colors a serious packs here, by the way. 829 00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:17,219 Travis Wright: I want to say I admire that. How swole you 830 00:44:17,219 --> 00:44:19,050 Travis Wright: are over there. Courage. 831 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:22,680 Brendan Eich: I used to whip, though I wasn't eating as right 832 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,080 Brendan Eich: as I came to be later in life. Now I 833 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:25,770 Brendan Eich: eat too old for. 834 00:44:26,430 --> 00:44:29,340 Travis Wright: It's good for you. It's easy to do. We really 835 00:44:29,340 --> 00:44:30,779 Travis Wright: appreciate it, brother. Thank you so much. 836 00:44:31,860 --> 00:44:33,120 Brendan Eich: Thank you for having me. A lot of fun. 837 00:44:35,130 --> 00:44:38,040 Joel Comm: Always great to talk to you. The movers and shakers 838 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:42,009 Joel Comm: of the technology space want one another to speak to Brendan. 839 00:44:42,030 --> 00:44:45,270 Joel Comm: He's also a real down to earth, humble dude, in 840 00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:47,670 Joel Comm: spite of all of his massive accomplishments. 841 00:44:48,780 --> 00:44:50,460 Travis Wright: I loved it. I like to have him on again. 842 00:44:50,489 --> 00:44:53,940 Travis Wright: This dude's killing it. And I love how you mentioned him. 843 00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,510 Travis Wright: I love how he's like, Oh, my God. People are 844 00:44:57,510 --> 00:45:01,399 Travis Wright: using the image and they're using JavaScript to track people. 845 00:45:01,410 --> 00:45:05,880 Travis Wright: I've got to unravel this. Sounds like he literally stopped 846 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,640 Travis Wright: in in and said, I got to make this right. 847 00:45:08,670 --> 00:45:10,230 Travis Wright: And then he worked on a solution. A lot of 848 00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:13,830 Travis Wright: times people what they would do is, Oh, look at 849 00:45:13,830 --> 00:45:16,530 Travis Wright: how much money we can make. Now with online advertising. 850 00:45:16,530 --> 00:45:20,219 Travis Wright: I want to become a big trillionaire. And but instead 851 00:45:20,219 --> 00:45:22,590 Travis Wright: he said, No, let's give this money back to the people. 852 00:45:22,860 --> 00:45:25,410 Travis Wright: Let's build a better solution, and we're going to do 853 00:45:25,410 --> 00:45:29,730 Travis Wright: it together. And to me, like this, dude, this is 854 00:45:29,730 --> 00:45:33,780 Travis Wright: what I have here in my book. Yup. I can't see. 855 00:45:33,780 --> 00:45:35,160 Travis Wright: That's like I just raised my heart. 856 00:45:35,219 --> 00:45:38,430 Joel Comm: It's like it's way up there is erases the video screen. 857 00:45:38,460 --> 00:45:39,310 Travis Wright: It's off. You know. 858 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,780 Joel Comm: I can smell what's coming out from under your ear. No, no, no. 859 00:45:42,780 --> 00:45:43,950 Travis Wright: I took a shower today. 860 00:45:45,390 --> 00:45:46,350 Joel Comm: We don't. Proof of that. 861 00:45:46,830 --> 00:45:48,530 Travis Wright: I put off a shower post. 862 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:51,750 Joel Comm: Sherpa dirt. 863 00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:52,710 Brendan Eich: Bus back to. 864 00:45:53,610 --> 00:45:54,120 Travis Wright: Turkey. 865 00:45:54,540 --> 00:45:57,660 Joel Comm: So time is running out to get your bad crypto 866 00:45:57,660 --> 00:46:01,860 Joel Comm: nifty club membership if you want the Brad Mill's NFT. 867 00:46:02,130 --> 00:46:07,170 Joel Comm: Hopefully you heard that Episode number 651 that was released 868 00:46:07,170 --> 00:46:10,650 Joel Comm: here just a few days ago and and got your 869 00:46:10,650 --> 00:46:14,640 Joel Comm: big crypto NFT membership card. This is the NFT that 870 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,220 Joel Comm: we're getting ready to release. Of course, you can't hear 871 00:46:17,219 --> 00:46:20,279 Joel Comm: it right now, but it is a two minute video NFT. 872 00:46:20,489 --> 00:46:24,840 Joel Comm: It is a bonus. Add on to the episode exclusively 873 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,529 Joel Comm: for those of you in the Bad Crypto Nifty Club, 874 00:46:27,540 --> 00:46:30,640 Joel Comm: you're going to get this airdropped to you for free. 875 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,120 Joel Comm: How do you get it? Well, real easy. You need 876 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,440 Joel Comm: to go to the bad crypto podcast site on Uncut 877 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:42,180 Joel Comm: Dot FM. It's bad crypto dot, Uncut dot FM and 878 00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:47,190 Joel Comm: then you're going to go into the the NFTS. And 879 00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:49,469 Joel Comm: I believe right down here at the bottom, that's the 880 00:46:49,469 --> 00:46:51,780 Joel Comm: one you want. You want the bad crypto nifty club 881 00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:57,779 Joel Comm: .002 wrapped. That's all it is. You could pay with ether. 882 00:46:57,780 --> 00:46:59,230 Joel Comm: You can even pay with a credit card if you want. 883 00:46:59,250 --> 00:47:01,859 Joel Comm: Once you've got this, you're in the club and the 884 00:47:01,860 --> 00:47:04,440 Joel Comm: free airdrops that we send go to people who are 885 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,570 Joel Comm: holding these. So what's your excuse? Go get it there. Rare. 886 00:47:07,590 --> 00:47:09,860 Joel Comm: It says so right here on the screen. I love. 887 00:47:09,870 --> 00:47:11,790 Travis Wright: It. So you can check it out. Hey, what about this? 888 00:47:12,060 --> 00:47:14,880 Travis Wright: We haven't talked about doing an NFT for. For Brendan Eich. 889 00:47:15,090 --> 00:47:18,270 Travis Wright: What if we take the blockchain heroes and make a 890 00:47:18,270 --> 00:47:21,989 Travis Wright: brand new version of it and create a new courage 891 00:47:22,469 --> 00:47:24,890 Travis Wright: only for the uncut folks? 892 00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:28,780 Joel Comm: Just just on Polygon? I like that. I like that. Now, 893 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,830 Joel Comm: you got two reasons to get your bad crypto nifty 894 00:47:31,830 --> 00:47:36,359 Joel Comm: club membership. We're going to create another variation of courage 895 00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:39,630 Joel Comm: Blockchain hero and it will be airdrop. This will be 896 00:47:39,630 --> 00:47:42,390 Joel Comm: our first. Will this be the first polygon? No. We 897 00:47:42,390 --> 00:47:46,589 Joel Comm: worked with Limp and did a few exclusive variations on 898 00:47:46,590 --> 00:47:48,989 Joel Comm: their platform, but this will be the first one for 899 00:47:48,989 --> 00:47:50,160 Joel Comm: the bank. Crypto nifty one. 900 00:47:50,670 --> 00:47:53,130 Travis Wright: Yeah. And then all those 60 million people over on 901 00:47:53,130 --> 00:47:56,520 Travis Wright: Braid better get one because, well, all 60 million couldn't 902 00:47:56,550 --> 00:48:00,300 Travis Wright: because there's not that many of those bad crypto clubs available. 903 00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:02,370 Travis Wright: But thanks for tuning in. I'm really glad you tuned in. 904 00:48:02,670 --> 00:48:05,940 Travis Wright: And you know, Brendan is amazing. I'm really pleased that 905 00:48:05,940 --> 00:48:06,990 Travis Wright: we had to have something hacked. 906 00:48:07,590 --> 00:48:11,730 Joel Comm: Absolutely. And we appreciate you guys. Thanks for bearing with us. 907 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:17,440 Joel Comm: Your favorite defi defi, your sherpa in Dafa. I like that. 908 00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:20,880 Joel Comm: I like those names. Make sure you go review five 909 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,310 Joel Comm: stars is preferred. And we also we have a bunch 910 00:48:23,310 --> 00:48:25,919 Joel Comm: of voicemails that we're going to be playing for you 911 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,060 Joel Comm: or maybe we played on the last episode of Remember 912 00:48:28,060 --> 00:48:31,860 Joel Comm: When We Use Them because we recorded this interview before 913 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,040 Joel Comm: Monday's news shows. We want the news to be current 914 00:48:35,370 --> 00:48:36,960 Joel Comm: in a we're out of order so that we can 915 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,779 Joel Comm: be in order. And if that makes any sense to 916 00:48:39,780 --> 00:48:42,510 Joel Comm: you that you are already following our instructions. 917 00:49:00,620 --> 00:49:01,339 Travis Wright: Who's bad? 918 00:49:03,130 --> 00:49:06,760 Joel Comm: The Bad Crypto podcast is a production of Bad Crypto LLC. 919 00:49:06,940 --> 00:49:09,670 Joel Comm: The content of the show, the videos and the website 920 00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:13,779 Joel Comm: is provided for educational, informational and entertainment purposes only. It's 921 00:49:13,780 --> 00:49:17,710 Joel Comm: not intended to be and does not constitute financial investment 922 00:49:17,710 --> 00:49:20,739 Joel Comm: or trading advice of any kind. You shouldn't make any 923 00:49:20,739 --> 00:49:24,400 Joel Comm: decisions as to finances, investing, trading or anything else based 924 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,930 Joel Comm: on this information without undertaking independent due diligence in consultation 925 00:49:28,930 --> 00:49:32,350 Joel Comm: with a professional financial advisor. Please understand that the trading 926 00:49:32,350 --> 00:49:37,390 Joel Comm: of Bitcoins and alternative cryptocurrencies have potential risks involved. Anyone 927 00:49:37,390 --> 00:49:39,820 Joel Comm: wishing to invest in any of the currencies or tokens 928 00:49:39,820 --> 00:49:43,150 Joel Comm: mentioned on this podcast should first seek their own independent 929 00:49:43,150 --> 00:49:45,010 Joel Comm: professional financial advisor.